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 Post subject: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:21 pm 
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For quick reference, here is the exact wording of the BoW as pertaining to armor checking.

Code:
3. Armor Checking
3.1. Definitions
3.1.1. Leather ? Armor constructed of tanned animal hide.
3.1.2. Metal ? Armor constructed of metal. Includes chain and plate.
3.1.3. Rigid Metal ? Armor constructed of discrete or continuous metal plate.
3.1.4. Chain ? Metal Armor constructed of interlocking metal rings.
3.1.5. Helmet ? Armor for the Head and Neck.
3.1.6. Cops ? Rigid metal knee and elbow Armor.
3.1.7. Composite ? Armor constructed of both metal and leather.
3.1.8. Penny Round ? Armor checking standard where the edge of rigid metal Armor is compared to that of a penny:
3.1.8.1. The edge of rigid metal Armor shall have the smoothness of the edge of a penny.
3.1.8.2. The edge of rigid metal Armor shall have less cutting ability than the edge of a penny.
3.1.8.3. The radius of any rigid metal corner must be greater than the radius of a penny.
3.2. Armor must be passed by Marshals from two separate realms, assuming an inter-realm event.
3.3. Armor must not catch appendages. Fingers should not catch in Armor. This includes articulated plates and large diameter chain.
3.4. Armor may not have protrusions that rise more than ? inch from the surface.
3.5. The minimum thickness for leather Armor is 3/16 inch. The minimum thickness requirement can be achieved by layering up to two pieces of thinner leather.
3.6. Metal Armor
3.6.1. Metal Armor must be made from period metals and alloys such as iron, bronze, brass, or copper. Modern steel alloys are also allowed.
3.6.2. Metal Armor must conform to both of the following:
3.6.2.1. Must not be easily deformable by hand or by weapon strikes.
3.6.2.2. Using a material with a thickness of at least 20 gauge.
3.6.3. Rigid Metal must conform to the Penny Round standard.
3.7. Composite Armor
3.7.1. Studded, scaled, or brigandine Armor can only be counted as Armor if 2/3 of the target area is covered by metal or leather, or the studs/rings/plates can not be no more than 1/2 inch apart.
3.7.2. Composite Armor must be identifiable as Armor by appearance.
3.8. Prohibited Armor:
3.8.1. Rigid Metal knee or elbow Armor (cops).
3.8.2. Rigid Metal full Helmet. Partial Rigid Metal Helmet as well as full Helmet made of any other Armor materials are allowed

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:59 pm 
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These rules have some grammar issues making them unclear.

Please consider the following:

3.7.1. Studded, scaled, or brigandine Armor can only be counted as Armor if 2/3 of the target area is covered by metal or leather, or the studs/rings/plates can not be no more than 1/2 inch apart.

Does this mean:

3.7.1 Studded, scaled, or brigandine Armor can only be counted as Armor if 2/3 of the target area is covered by metal or leather, or the studs/rings/plates are no more than 1/2 inch apart.
?

Is it an either or type of thing or do the studs/rings/plates have to cover both 2/3 of the area and be no more than 1/2 inch apart?

Please clarify this and feel free to delete my post if I have ruined your sticky.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:35 pm 
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Because this keeps coming up.

Armor cannot be made of plastic because it is not period material.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:43 pm 
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Aranor brings up a good point. for new people knowing the difference would be helpful


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:57 pm 
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whooooa man, slow down.

If you view the post above yours, you'll notice that it's dated nearly TWO YEARS prior to today. Aranel did have a good point, you're right, a year and a half ago. I doubt he's sitting around waiting for the answer. You should move along, theirs nothing to see here.

It's kind of like in a normal conversation, when there's a moment of akward silence, and then you bring up a conversation from a week ago like you were just having it.

Unless you have something CRITICAL to add to a thread, you really shouldn't post in it after a week or two, just let it die.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:55 pm 
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Ahki wrote:
Because this keeps coming up.

Armor cannot be made of plastic because it is not period material.


What about...

http://www.armorvenue.com/medieval-armo ... ther-armor

Angel and I had armor like this back when I fought. I didn't find out until after I quit that it's actually a semi rigid plastic inside coated with a very thin layer of leather.

Fails, right? I stopped wearing mine because it was so rigid I couldn't feel half my shots.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:56 pm 
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yep,.fails.

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 Post subject: Hockey Pads
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:05 pm 
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What about using hockey padding under the leather?

I am about to purchase some hockey padding to put under the leather, which the leather will pass. It helps with durability, and an even better base to construct to and attach all pieces. Breathability should increase, and make the armor last a long time.

Check it out, only has one small piece of plastic on the top should pad that can be ripped off since no plastic is allowed, and the rest of it can just be used for padding underneath for protection. I am ripping hte chest part off and only using the shoulder part, but I need to know ASAP since I am about to purchase it tonight.

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:06 pm 
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NOTE: Forgot to mention SCA allows it, just not sure if we allow it or not.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:17 pm 
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Ursyne wrote:
NOTE: Forgot to mention SCA allows it, just not sure if we allow it or not.


First of all, SCA rules have no bearing on our game. The fact that the SCA allows it means nothing.

Now, it doesn't matter WHAT armors backed with. As long as your covered in an outer layer of army grade leather, everything else is mute. So plastic is allowed UNDER your armor, as long as the leather is armor grade.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:23 pm 
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Yeah, I know SCA is not the same :-)

I am just saying that as at least one group is allowing it, so if had to be discussed, it would make it easier to pull information from.

Anyhow, the pads are just for comfort, you will definitely want to try these out when I get them done for Springwars... they are going to feel great! And I think I am even bigger than you since you lost some weight last I saw ya, so might be a bit big :-)

The leather will be connected and a rivet in place for the swinging part of the arm. I can build it without the pads, but just does not look the same and also not as comfortable. It will look authentic, up to the point of taking them off, flipping them over, and seeing the underside black foam.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:49 pm 
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The problem I've seen with padded armor is feeling hits through it. Got to learn to listen for leather slap.

I also wanted to add after rereading my post later, that having armor grade leather on the outside isn't quite what I mean either... I mean brig is leather in pockets of another material... But when it comes to materials such as plastics, the leather has to be over it, not under it or in it, which would not be the case with more period materials.

Not IN the rules, persay, but just trust me on this one.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:54 am 
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I will show some pics once it is done. I am making pics of how I made it to make it a possibility for others, which might be nice. That way they can see waht we are talking about :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:39 am 
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so any kind of metal would do for amor. and would this kind of amor be legal on the field? here is the site to see it. http://www.cristalab.com/images/anime/a ... 1_1280.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:03 am 
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The metal itself must be period (or mostly period), which rules out things like titanium and aluminum. Stainless steel is alright, though.

You would also need to ensure those corners were penny round, but other than that, it would be fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:57 pm 
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okay. thanx

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:43 am 
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oh yea. what is the min. thickness for leather?

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:44 am 
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Book of War wrote:
3.5. The minimum thickness for leather Armor is 3/16 inch. The minimum thickness requirement can be achieved by layering up to two pieces of thinner leather.


It's 12 oz. in leather terms.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:50 am 
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Roughly .5 cm yes?

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:28 pm 
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(3/16) inch = 0.47625 centimeters

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:42 pm 
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Is the 3/16 in minimum also required for studded, scaled or brigadine?


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:44 pm 
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No.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:56 pm 
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Is there a minimum gauge on chainmail?

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Book of War wrote:
3.6.2. Metal Armor must conform to both of the following:

3.6.2.1. Must not be easily deformable by hand or by weapon strikes.
3.6.2.2. Using a material with a thickness of at least 20 gauge.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:31 pm 
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Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:38 pm 
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for chain though, you'll want to use at least 16 gauge
unless you are making VERY small rings...then 18 might work

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:35 pm 
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I have some 18 gauge that I was thinking about using with a 1/4" internal diameter. i wasn't sure if that would be strong/thick enough, though. I am just starting out with this and I guess I could use some advice.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:08 pm 
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You can probably do it with 1/4" rings at 18 gauge, but it's going to require a lot of repairs. You should probably go with 7/32" or 3/16" ID.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:13 pm 
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That might work, but it would increase the number of rings I would have to make considerably. Hmmm...I think I might just take the 18 gauge back and get some 16. That would probably be easier.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:59 pm 
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is thare any restriction to wat armor lookes like


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:01 pm 
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Well, it needs to look like armor.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:03 pm 
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It can't be mistaken for garb.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:58 am 
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Derian wrote:
The metal itself must be period (or mostly period), which rules out things like titanium and aluminum. Stainless steel is alright, though.


Okay, I'm calling BS on 'Because it's Period'

Firstly, there is no 'Period'. Bel isn't historical reenactment. Steel isn't period until, what, like 1450? 1350? Up until fairly late in history Steel was a happy accident rather than something that could be consistently produced in large amounts for most of the world. So Steel, some kinds of brass, and so forth might not be 'Period' for your historical character.

Secondly, Bel allows fantasy characters. What is the 'Period' for your Elf? Orc? Troll? Is Mithril allowed? I seem to recall it being a silvery metal of high strength, but about forty percent lighter than steel.

Thirdly, Leather, for the most part, isn't "Period". Frankly, most kinds of leather aren't going to do anything useful against sharp metal weapons. Maybe it'll keep your intestines inside for a few more minutes, but mostly leather is very easy to cut and pierce with even moderately sharp weapons. Arguing that you leather is period and plastic isn't doesn't grok on the grounds that you wouldn't have been using either one of them in 'Period' to make armor.

Instead of saying 'Plastic isn't allowed because it's not period' could we just say 'Plastic isn't allowed because it's tacky, ugly, beardy, and cheesy as hell?'


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:47 am 
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Bel is trying to make armor look like armor and (theoretically, originally, at least) provide some encumbrance to the wearer and just didn't feel like allowing plastic armor.

So, plastic isn't allow, certain metals are, for some reason unhardened leather is, cuirbouilli is, chain of certain metals is.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:14 am 
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The idea is that armor must be at least somewhat encumbering. Aluminum doesn't do that to the extent that steel or heavy * leather does.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 12:17 pm 
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I'm a bit confused on the period materials bit? don't get me wrong, i LOVE that it has to look like period materials, but here is where I am confused:
I am brand new and just starting out, but trying to see how much of my old gear (from SCA and such) can be used for Belegarth, and I am wondering, can my aluminum chain mail be used at all? Obviously they didnt have alluminum chain mail but then I saw this:
viewtopic.php?f=107&t=30970
and it is a beautifully done piece, but looked (and I say "looked" becuase I have not contacted the armourer who did it and asked, I may be totally wrong, it may be leather stuffed with flax wool for all I know and totally period) to be made from more modern materials too? Then I have seen where people don't wear armour at all, just some garb and some mundane modern clothing. Is it a general rule to avoid hockey pads and visible plastic, or is it very specific as to the exact make-up and construction of the armour, regardless of final appearance?
I think the rules flexibility on some things in Belegarth is what drew me in to begin with, it seemed more focused on fun and less focused on strict rules, but I also want to be respectful as a noob too, and do my homework and research to follow the rules...


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 12:28 pm 
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Generally, if you're wearing modern protective gear like kneepads, you should keep them hidden.

Armor is completely unnecessary for safety reasons and confers in game advantage. Because of this, we require that it have some downside, which is generally encumbrance in one way or another. Chain breathes and moves well, so the only downside is weight. Aluminum gets around this much better than a steel hauberk would, so that's why aluminum is disallowed.

The armor you linked is a common site on the field; it's generally heavy canvas with thick leather inside of it. Not exactly period by any means, but it fits well with a lot of fantasy universes. It's also hot as balls compared to any other kind of armor.

As for the period armor rules, the bulk of the armor must be made up of 'period' materials; that is, steel (or any of it's modern alloys, like stainless), iron, bronze, whatever else, and 12 oz. or thicker leather.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:43 am 
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just a quick note
1. mild steel was around long before the 1300s the vikings were useing it in 1000 A.D. and the romans well before that.
2.encumbrance is a concept from AD&D and has no bearing on reality as anyone who has wore well made plate can tell you.I have seen friends in full plate win footraces against unarmored men do backflips ,somersaults and even walk on their hands and as to how plate distributes its weight it feels lighter then chain when worn.
3.the whole thing about "Being Period" is a little weird for a fantasy based game .As I have pointed out before aluminium was rare "In Period" because of the difficulty in processing the ore into metal but it was known and used. why not just say its banned and leave it at that?
4. what exactly is a "Partial Rigid Metal Helmet" can it be a solid metal top with the cheeck plates on hinges? this is one rule that could be made clearer.


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:26 pm 
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So if:
1) it's a fantasy based game, there shouldn't be real armour restrictions anyways.
2) If modern alloys are allowed, so should aluminum...why not? Not Fair? It's not like doping, anyone can buy it...and it looks * good...
3) hiding plastic-agree, because it looks like crap.
So it seems real armour restrictions then are in place simply to prevent a few people using modern materials to make their armour (that could likely look like crap) thus removing any control over any sense of "realistic "medieval" fantasy look...

It just seems odd to me that its a "fantasy" based game but yet when it comes to armour, suddenly we are much more historical in our attempts and restrictions, or at least try to be...of course, wearing beanies, dreadlocks,fedoras, baggy modern karate pants, hippy rags and t-shirt/cotton-twill-blend tunics is fine...
If we allow freedom of persona (aka fantasy) then why should rules all of the sudden come into play when it comes to armour? EXCEPT of course when it comes to grappling, this I can completely understand...that would just be uncool to grapple someone not in armour, injuries are no fun for anyone...I agree with the armour-to-armour rule...)


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Because armor provides an in game advantage, it also needs some kind of disadvantage to balance it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:29 pm 
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Because MAN UP and get some STEEL, that's why.

This from a guy who where's plastic in the SCA....


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:42 am 
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Arrakis wrote:
This from a guy who where's plastic in the SCA....

Where is that plastic anyways?

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:35 am 
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Bortas wrote:
Arrakis wrote:
This from a guy who where's plastic in the SCA....

Where is that plastic anyways?

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:01 pm 
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Yes, it's a fantasy game, no we are not changing the rules. They are that way for a reason. Armor needs a disadvantage and that is that it's must weight as much as heavy leather. Now if you can get that to wear like a second skin, do flips etc, great. But for most part the heat and weight confers enough disadvantage to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:40 pm 
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Soo Ma Tai wrote:
Yes, it's a fantasy game, no we are not changing the rules. They are that way for a reason. Armor needs a disadvantage and that is that it's must weight as much as heavy leather. Now if you can get that to wear like a second skin, do flips etc, great. But for most part the heat and weight confers enough disadvantage to work.


Totally agree...but then at the same time then, shouldn't normal clothes be of equal caliber to period materials? I'm totally just playing Devils advocate here, so I don't relaly want to * anyone off, but it just seems like the one area where we try to impose some sense of "historical limitation" is in armour...

Now, I can understand to make it a disadvantage, except that why does it have to have a disadvantage at all? To make things fair? Well anyone can buy armour can't they? Make it? Craft it, etc...so it's not like we are only letting a certain few use it...everyone can get it if they want it, and since it is a fantasy based game, it seems reasonable that anything should count...in theory...problem is, I think there might end up being a bunch of hella ugly crap on the field if we opened it up to "anything" thus I can see the reasoning for "period materials" due to this....
Here's where I am going with this..
At Chaos, I had my steel chain hauberk, couldn't use it because it was 18 guage and would occasionally pop rings at the armpits..it was re-enactment mail, not historically accurate mail and I didn't care if I lost rings...couldn't use it...

Derian wrote:
You can probably do it with 1/4" rings at 18 gauge, but it's going to require a lot of repairs. You should probably go with 7/32" or 3/16" ID.



Totally true....so for history's sake, I can totally understand the limitation...but Bel is a fantasy game, so if it didn't pose any danger (like non-penny round edges and such), and looked really period, then why limit it? Again, just sort of continuing the discussion and playing Devil's advocate here, I have no real problem with the armour rules, but I can see peoples point in not getting the limitations in a fantasy based game somewhat....especially when they don't apply to non-armoured garb...come on...if "medieval fantasy" or "period" applys to armour, let's make it apply to garb...

If it is supposed to provide a disadvantage, it's that "any" armour is a disadvantage over nothing, it's an extra layer... and if someone wants to fight fight fight and get into killer fighting shape to move in armour like others move in clothes, then thats totally up to them and their commitment to train....just seems like:
1) it's a fantasy based game
2) any armour is a disadvantage over clothes
3) and creativity in how to make cool "looking" armour (regardless of materials) should be encouraged, regardless of materials (because of number 1).

Again, just thoughts, not opinions.....


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:56 pm 
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Hmmmmmmm... your number 2 seems to be a little odd to me. If I put on 45 lbs of plate- I just added 45 pounds of encumbrance that I did NOT have before. NOW- if I am Hulk Hogan- 45 pounds may not be a lot or even be encumbering- BUT for the average foam fighter- it should serve to encumber them.

I don't believe your "back flips in full plate" were average people as well as I might start to doubt the weight of full suit plate if someone that is 150 pounds can do back flips in it...

But- hey- I just started... doing backflips in chainmail pajamas so what do I know... :devil:

Stahlgrim wrote:
2.encumbrance is a concept from AD&D and has no bearing on reality as anyone who has wore well made plate can tell you.I have seen friends in full plate win footraces against unarmored men do backflips ,somersaults and even walk on their hands and as to how plate distributes its weight it feels lighter then chain when worn.

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Last edited by Satanaka on Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:58 pm 
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its playability man. Sometimes you have to nerf Luigi b/c nobody would play Mario.


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:20 pm 
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I guess if you consider open chain rings laying around on the ground upon which barefoot people will be running, people will be knee-walking, and others will be rolling NOT a safety concern, well...

then you're dumb?



Really, there has to be a limit or else one layer of thin cloth counts as armor. And since we don't have a graduated armor scale, but a binary one, you really have to have a single hard cutoff. The easy way to do that at the game's inception was period materials.

So, take your aluminum chain and your plastic vambs and your cardboard breastplate and save 'em for another game.


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:18 am 
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Arrakis wrote:
I guess if you consider open chain rings laying around on the ground upon which barefoot people will be running, people will be knee-walking, and others will be rolling NOT a safety concern, well...

then you're dumb?



Really, there has to be a limit or else one layer of thin cloth counts as armor. And since we don't have a graduated armor scale, but a binary one, you really have to have a single hard cutoff. The easy way to do that at the game's inception was period materials.

So, take your aluminum chain and your plastic vambs and your cardboard breastplate and save 'em for another game.


Makes sense, and in the meantime, throw on your Tevas, chacos, t-shirts and cotton twill baggy modern karate pants and preach about how armour has to be made out of "period" materials to provide encumbrance...seems logical....


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 Post subject: Re: Armor Rules
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:36 am 
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Tevas, cotton haks, and T-tunics don't grant an in-game advantage, nor do they appear to. THAT's the difference, jackass.


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