legality of plastic??

[apollyon]

i know the bow says no plastic but a friend of mine was wondering what if you placed plates in pockets of fabric instead of metal plates theyd be plastic plates but would be totally covered by the fabric and with no chance of coming out kinda like a shield is made....i am not an armor wearer nor will i ever be but my friend wants to do this sandwiching plastic between layers of fabric...and i was wondering if it would pass, assuming all the other standards are met!!

[Ahki]

Nope, because platic is not a period material for making armor. The only materials that armor can be made of is leather, or metal (chain or plate). You can samich leather or metal plates between cloth and have perfectly legal armor. Metal would be cheaper, but heavy and you must make sure the corners are penny round. Leather is lighter and would have more flexability. And can be bought from the Leather Factory http://www.tandyleather.com/index.asp for around 70$ (on sale) for an armor thickness side which is ussaly (depending on your size) enought for a full suit and then some.

[Droviin]

One other period armour material that is rarely used is wood. Japan used wood extensivly. Rattan and bamboo were also popular in certain areas, as was bark. In my advise just about anything that was advailable in the 1100's that would be reasonable to make armour from should pass.

[Underhill]

I remember hearing about a Polynesian tribe using wicker armor. Are you saying this would count? I've been seriously considering making some.

[Alabraxis]

any time you use a non-leather/metal material, I would advise having proof of historical precident so that the heralds don't fail it out of hand.

[Cyric]

no, he says bow as in Book of War. He's talking about armor.

[Vak]

I think he is talking about a bow...not armor.

[Seiichiro]

Japan used wood extensivly.

No, they didn't.

I'm not even going to cut and paste my rant on this one. Just search for 'wooden armor'. Inevitably, Japan comes up.

[apollyon]

heres my main question did japanese use foam in their samuri swords???did the kelts?? did they use buggie boards in there shields?? i mean if the plastic is covered and you couldnt tell it was plastic, then wouldn't this be the same as making a shield...like i said i dont even wear armor but this guy wants to know this....

[xiao]

i know the bow says no plastic but a friend of mine was wondering what if you placed plates in pockets of fabric instead of metal plates theyd be plastic plates but would be totally covered by the fabric and with no chance of coming out kinda like a shield is made....i am not an armor wearer nor will i ever be but my friend wants to do this sandwiching plastic between layers of fabric...and i was wondering if it would pass, assuming all the other standards are met!!

use leather in place of plastic, done!

[Derian]

Armor gives you a huge advantage on the field, that's why it's restricted to period materials. You can't honestly say "duur, teh samuiis didnt use foam in their swords." That's a safety reason.

Armor is not required for safety in this sport; it's intended to give you an advantage on the field. If plastic was allowed, everyone and their mother would show up in **** looking armor.

[Droviin]

Japan used wood extensivly.

No, they didn't.

I'm not even going to cut and paste my rant on this one. Just search for 'wooden armor'. Inevitably, Japan comes up.

I just looked it up, laqured (sp?) wood was used as an armour contruction material.

[Droviin]

I should clairify. In the very early times, and when bows were just beginning to be used on the battlefield, wood was dominant. As time progressed other less awkward materials were prefered.

[MagnusofDregoth]

Underhill--

Wicker armor like that used by Polynesians (not sure which ones) is not only not legal for Belegarth, it's also ridiculously impractical, and extremely heavy and uncomfortable. And it would take forever to make. They have a suit of it at the Met, and it doesn't look like something I would want to wear.

[apollyon]

Armor gives you a huge advantage on the field, that's why it's restricted to period materials. You can't honestly say "duur, teh samuiis didnt use foam in their swords." That's a safety reason.

Armor is not required for safety in this sport; it's intended to give you an advantage on the field. If plastic was allowed, everyone and their mother would show up in **** looking armor.

lol ok if you didnt get that was a joke!!! you actually answered my friends question....so thank you.......

[Dragon of Fire]

just a quick safety rant...

metal- very hard, bends verry little in the worst cases
leather- bends but has no sharp or pointy corners, doesnt snap
plastic- if you hit it right, it snaps, leaves jaged edges, and no one wants to be sliced up by someones armor.

plus, if you folowed the rules, it would be too easy to go out, buy some crappy looking plastic armor that meets requirements and cover it in something. its not hard to go to a toystore and get some "knights armor" then you cut it into squares and have perfect armor that will break down in less than 1 battle, if it somehow managed to sneak onto the battlefield

[Gronk of MN]

in all fairness there are lots of kinds of readily available plastic that would be VERY unlikey to "snap", such as virtually any kind of abs. think of a plastic slab cutting board. however, the expence of such materials is simply un economical compared to that of metal plates.

but yeah, it makes sense to limit the game to period materials, to a) help restrict the amount of armor on the field (due to the fact that many folk simply wont make it) and b) help lend more historical relevance and respect to the game.

except for all the folks in pseudo historical/fantasy leather armor, that just looks cool

[Gronk of MN]

EDIT

holy double post, Batman!

[Dragon of Fire]

plastic cutting board = twice (at least) the thickness of legal armor. not sure why you would go with something so heavy, if its that thick, itd be cheeper and lighter for metal.

also, you can delete double posts if youre the last post, now you're not, but just for future reference

[bo1]

Ok first off SCA uses pickle barrel plastic. It does not break at all, much stronger than leather. It is at least 3 times lighter than leather. It can very easily be formed with a little heat. It makes absolutly beautiful armor, belegarth illeagal armor. It is a BOW people, read it and follow what it says. its really clear if you bother to read it.

[maximilian]

Okay, as a noob and history fanatic I say I'd hate to see people showing up in "milk jug armor", but I'll also say that there are plastic lamellae available that make my mouth water. I wholeheartedly agree with the "no cheese" philosophy for armor and wear chainmaille. I'd still not complain if someone showed up in REALLY nice plastic armor as long as it looked "right." I might even be tempted to make some myself. But till it's legal I'll tote my 35 lb. hauberk around, or get leather.

[apollyon]

i agree with Derian now thanks man i never realy looked at it that way before.... i was joking about the swords but you did clairify a lot.....thanks!!

[Seiichiro]

I just looked it up, laqured (sp?) wood was used as an armour contruction material.

Looked it up where? When and for what pieces? I heard that it was done in late late period, like post-Edo into Meiji restoration (late 1800s) for decoration pieces or kendo/kenjutsu. Well past what's considered period for Belegarth. Heian through Momoyama period armors (800 - 1600) were thin iron/steel plates and thick water buffalo back rawhide (1/8") sometimes wrapped in thin deerskin lacquered with urushi to about 1/4" thick and laced together with sinew and silk flat cord or rivited together. Assembled in either a lamellar fashion (earlier o-yoroi), overlapping bands of armor (okegawa-do) or entire solid plates (hotoke-do).

Rawhide is lighter and more durable than wood. Wood splinters and swells along it's grain. Tissue fibers in rawhide run randomly in a sort of tangle. Lacquer it and it's like a primitive fiberglass and it won't rot due to ambient humidity (being on an island group).

Unless you're talking about pre-Heian Japan (<800) and I just don't know enough about the armors from that time.

Reference link : http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html

[Gronk of MN]

i just found these in (in a roundabout way) from another post.

http://www.brotherguido.com/rmor/default.htm

how can these NOT be legal?

[Kyrian]

I'll be the first one to say that the plastic lamellae look awesome...but they're plastic. Consider the audience to which the website is geared, primarily the SCA. Since you MUST wear armor unlike us where it's an option and the fact that plastic is a legal material for them (although frowned upon by some), that's considered acceptable. As to why we don't allow non-period materials, I think Derian's post earlier in the thread sums it up best.

[Fowler]

I'll be the first one to say that the plastic lamellae look awesome...but they're plastic. Consider the audience to which the website is geared, primarily the SCA. Since you MUST wear armor unlike us where it's an option and the fact that plastic is a legal material for them (although frowned upon by some), that's considered acceptable. As to why we don't allow non-period materials, I think Derian's post earlier in the thread sums it up best.

I would argue alot of the SCA frowns on it for reasons of authenticity and believes it only acceptable for beginners. Which is the reason it was allowed in the beginning to allow people to enter the sport without spending tons of money and/or time on an acceptable suit of armor.

The whole plastic armor in the SCA is actually an issue for others, because it is much lighter than period materials allowing for better fighting performance. Some SCA fighters are going to plastic- not because it is cheap or easy, but to improve their fighting performance. We would have this same problem were it allowed in our sport.

[Black Cat]

The whole plastic armor in the SCA is actually an issue for others, because it is much lighter than period materials allowing for better fighting performance. Some SCA fighters are going to plastic- not because it is cheap or easy, but to improve their fighting performance. We would have this same problem were it allowed in our sport.

Ah, the power of cheese.

[apollyon]

i dont get it black cat???although i do love cheese!!!

[Black Cat]

The whole plastic armor in the SCA is actually an issue for others, because it is much lighter than period materials allowing for better fighting performance. Some SCA fighters are going to plastic- not because it is cheap or easy, but to improve their fighting performance. We would have this same problem were it allowed in our sport.

Ah, the power of cheese.

i dont get it black cat???although i do love cheese!!!

What I was saying is that people are "cheesing the rules" in SCA by wearing lighter armor for the sole purpose of gaining an unfair advantage in combat. My previous post (as well as this one) is basically just agreeing with Fowler on the subject of why we shouldn't allow plastic armor.

What I meant by "the power of cheese" is how it changes a respective game as a result of the unfair advantages it provides if allowed. If plastic armor was to be allowed in Belegarth, then it would defeat the purpose of having heavier armor such as chain mail or plate armor because it is much lighter and a lot cheaper. People with heavy armor would have to switch to plastic armor to deal with the fighters that wear plastic, since they will move a lot quicker and still have every rule advantage that people wearing normal armor have. All of a sudden, everyone will be wearing plastic armor and you might see some leather occasionally. It will change the face of the game.

This is the same kind of thing as "cheese sticks" and "turbo-clubs", only it is with armor instead of weapons.

[Dragon of Fire]

i was looking at those plastic plates, and i must say they do look nice, but what I thought was implied by the topic starter was some sort of brigadine armour in cloth pockets, like leather, and if you had small plastic plates thin enough to be light enough for reasonable armour, they would be weak, unless some really strong plastic was used (ive never heard of the pickle barrel stuff) but yeah, no cheese. im not sure on pricing of plastic armour, but even if it is cheeper, its one of those things thats just there to make it easier, and i think we're aiming for some sort of historical acuracy, (minus the elves, goblins, halflings, uruk-hai, etc)

[debuenzo]

i know the bow says no plastic

listen to the BoW; it's not trying to trick you

[Beorn Tordensjold]

We pad our weapons, not ourselves. Armor is NOT a required safety feature. Therefore, if you want to have armor, it must be made from period accurate materials. Plastic will probably never be legal in belegarth, not in the forseeable future anyway. The SCA allows plastic because you are REQUIRED to have armor to fight, and not everyone can drop thousands for steel armor. But since there's no requirement for armor in our organization, it needs to be period accurate.

Make sense? Have we beaten the dead horse enough?

[Mekoot Rowan]

I for one would like to brutalize the necrotic equine a bit further, but can't really come up with anything that would get me around the BoW specifically stating that period materials must be used.

[Ogre]

anyways, its a simple as leather looks cooler anyways!!!