chainmail rings

[Cecil]

Are these belegarth legal Saw Cut Aluminum Chainmail Rings 3/8"ID 14 Gauge??

[Oisin]

Aluminum isn't armour. Ever.

[Cecil]

is that the offical ruling of belegarth

[Cecil]

I dont understand what the diffrence is between Aluminum and steel other than they dont rust. the shouldnt look and different when they are rings in not asking to make platemail out of popcans

[Oisin]

Read the rules.

http://belegarth.com/rules.php#armor

They state very clearly what is allowed and what isn't.

What's the difference? Well, how about this . . . here is a bibliographical database of nearly every archaeological publication from Britain or Ireland EVER. There are others for other countries, you can feel free to use those.

http://www.biab.ac.uk/

You find me a single reference to a single piece of medieval maille made out of aluminum, or for that matter any medieval artifact whatsoever made out of refined aluminum, and I'll personally go on a crusade for you to get it allowed.

But, since I know for an absolute fact that it didn't exist, that's an empty promise.

[Oisin]

On second thought, sorry about the sarcasm. If you really need the differences between iron and aluminum explained, let me know.

[Saxon]

Read the rules.

http://belegarth.com/rules.php#armor

They state very clearly what is allowed and what isn't.

You find me a single reference to a single piece of medieval maille made out of aluminum, or for that matter any medieval artifact whatsoever made out of refined aluminum, and I'll personally go on a crusade for you to get it allowed.

3.6.1. Metal Armor must be made from period metals and alloys such as iron, bronze, brass, or copper. Modern steel alloys are also allowed.

In response to you, I would say find me a single piece of medieval maille made of titanium, but I know you can't, but alas, it is allowed in our sport.

I would think aluminum would be allowed. Its more common, and therefore cheaper, but about the same weight as titanium. And, the rules actually do not state very clearly what is allowed and what isn't. It lists a few examples of what is in terms of families of metals, and does not mention any kinds of metals as strictly prohibited, which if there were any, should be listed in section 3.8.

Cecil, I would make a post in the "Rules Questions" section.

And in terms of size/gauge, yes those are legal. Just get clarification on material.

Saxon

[Satanaka]

One of the things that balances out the aspects of Armor is that it is incumbering- it's heavy. A chainmale top may weight up to 48 pouds.
So what would an aluminum top weigh? would it be encumbering enough to be equall with the other materials?

Does that make sense?

This is also the reason you see more Leather in Belebarth instead of Chainmale. Belegarth is much faster and people do not want to be slowed down via heavy chain.

Not to long ago- a 'cheesemale' was wanting to be used- it was super light and small links- thankfully- it got voted down by the people of Belegarth.

[Cade]

You are correct. The rules do not specifically say what not to use for Chain, but they do say armor must be made out of "Period Metals" and to our current understanding of what period metals were used around the time period the game is based in, that rules out Aluminum, as well as Titanium imo.

I use steel for my rings, so i have no vested interest in this at all, but i think it's interesting. If i had my druthers i would disallow Titanium chain as well because its not period. Super cool, but not period.

Its the same reason we don't allow Kevlar vests on the field. It's not period. Now if Titanium is supposed to represent a fantasy metal such as Mythril or something like that, ok that's cool, but its not defined in any of the rules to my knowledge.

[varadin]

Titanium is not allowed in Belegarth. Now if it was I would see where you would want aluminum but since its not I dont see a problem with telling people to keep it period.

[Saxon]

My bad, I have no idea how I rationalized that in my head, but yeah, I take back the comment about titanium being allowed.

However, I still feel like the OP had a reasonable question as it is not defined in the rules. The rulebook should not require research to interpret.

[Claymore]

However, I still feel like the OP had a reasonable question as it is not defined in the rules. The rulebook should not require research to interpret.

I think it states it quite clearly with the period materials only. Rule 3.6.1 as you pointed out allows modern steel alloys, but Titanium and Aluminum are not steel alloys. Basically, it allows things like stainless steel.

I even understand why people ask. They want to know for sure, especially if they are planning to buy/make a suit themselves. But this is argued in a lot of threads throughout this forum. a minute to view other threads would be enlightening.

Really though, I wouldn't want to wear an aluminum or titanium chainmail even if it was legal. aluminum is soft and titanium is fragile when it gets thin, you'll be replacing links like crazy when using it in combat.

my personal mantra is that the armor should be able to protect you in actual live steel combat. I know that's a stretch, considering that most belegarth armor is made of saddle skirting, and provides little to no actual protection, but as Satanaka said, it's also about weight. Armor is not required, hence it is required to make the armor heavy in order to convey a physical disadvantage to the wearer. That way people with lots of money to afford armor don't gain a complete advantage to those who don't.

[Oisin]

Titanium counts as armour in Dagorhir, not Belegarth . . . not that I think it SHOULD, but I don't write the rules. Neither titanium nor aluminum were used as refined metals in the middle ages, although some aluminum salts were used as industrial chemicals, as a mordant for example. Titanium's very existence was not recognized until it was discovered in the 1790's.

Every piece of leather armour I've ever seen used in Belegarth is crap that might look pretty but wouldn't stop a 14th century 12 year old with a good knife, let alone a warrior in their prime with a sword or, god help you, an axe. It's min/maxed sports gear made to play a modern sport, and has next to nothing common with the gear that an actual warrior would wear into combat and trust his life to. It's * to argue, in this day of ninjabrigs and minimum weight unhardened leather armour, that the average armour on the field actually reduces the mobility or increases the encumbrance of the person wearing it, unless it's badly tailed to fit the individual, and that's not an issue of material, it's an issue of craft incompetence.

I think that armour should actually be armour or a relatively close semblance thereof--which doesn't rule out organic armours made of either leather or textile, but would SERIOUSLY up the requirements for their construction. But, I recognize that isn't a very popular perspective in Belegarth, so whatever.

Butted maille might not have nearly the same protective value as the real stuff, it's just as dubious in my mind as leather armour and would propably provide even less protection against said prepubescent assailant, but at least it has the same mass (quite a bit more, actually, as the stronger construction of riveted maille allows it to be much lighter) and roughly the same properties.

Oh, and aluminum can be tempered to be nearly as strong as some steel (T-6 "aircraft" aluminum for example), but it's 60% lighter than iron and about 33% lighter than titanium, and looks absolutely awful on the field. I mean, no matter how it's made, it looks like you're wearing pop tabs around, the color is just so distinctive.

Of course, on the other hand, by the late Medieval some factories were turning out steel plate armour comparable to modern spring steel, which allows you to make really good armour out of sheets as thin as 25 gauge or even thinner . . . or, as light as aluminum would be and infinitely stronger.

Check out Stonekeep Armory's spring steel SCA armour. Sure, it's better than the Medieval stuff (not as much better as you'd think, though), but their standard weight SCA armour is .020 mm thick, aka the same thickness as 27 gauge mild steel.

[Saxon]

I know they aren't alloys, that was exactly what I corrected in my second post. Read this thread before you tell people to read other ones maybe.

I think its funny that people are so militant about armor being so realistic in this sport when nothing else is. It is also the only thing held strictly to a historical standard, as opposed to everything else which can also include fantasy standards. I can be a goblin but if my armor won't stop a real 14th century live steel weapon, its garbage? Just sayin.

[Cade]

I know they aren't alloys, that was exactly what I corrected in my second post. Read this thread before you tell people to read other ones maybe.

I think its funny that people are so militant about armor being so realistic in this sport when nothing else is. It is also the only thing held strictly to a historical standard, as opposed to everything else which can also include fantasy standards. I can be a goblin but if my armor won't stop a real 14th century live steel weapon, its garbage? Just sayin.

It's a valid point but the rules are the rules.

Not that rationalizing the rules is important, because frankly all that is required is obedience, but they are basically stating the right rule for the wrong reason even though the affect of the stated reason is the actual reason for the rule.

The real reason is weight, and the way the rule is worded now is a lot better than stating that armor must weigh a specific amount to count as armor. The trade off for having armor is that you are now heavier and lose mobility/agility.

By disallowing anything non period, they basically get around specifying all the metals and materials, and they also get around actually setting a weight requirement, which would be a pain in the * for armor checkers and lead to min maxing.

So its a good rule, and they made it for the right reasons, they just say its for the wrong reason so that it can fulfill the right reason. Its very smart imo.

[Oisin]

I know that some people just want to play foam tag with heavier weapons, but I'm in this because I want to fight. I want to wear armour, not leather larp toys. I want to swing something that feels like a sword (thus why I weight my swords to almost 2 lbs with a realistic balance point), not some pixie stick made out of foam.

I don't care that I'm not the best fighter on the field, I care that I can support my team, hold the line and sell my life well if it comes time to do so. If my primary motivation was to be a competitive athlete, I'd have picked a sport people care about. Like basketball. Or soccer. One I could have gotten college scholarships playing. I'm competitive, I like to fight and win, don't get me wrong I'm not some limp-wristed flurb, but if that's all I cared about I wouldn't have picked Belegarth.

I'm here to get away from reality for a while, to pretend I'm what I'm not for a weekend, to stand in a shield wall and scream and kill a few people before I go down myself. And I just see no point in min-maxing crappy **** so I can stay alive for 15 seconds longer when I'm going to get to play again in 3 minutes. It's just not worth compromising the experience for.

Oh, and fantasy is not an excuse for bad garb, armour, or anything else, because fantasy is just real life played with slightly different parameters. It includes dudes with pointy ears who live too long, dudes with green skin who don't live long enough, and whatever else that doesn't actually exist, but it's still a slightly twisted take on our reality, and gravity works just the same in Faerun as it does here. 3/16" cowskin hardened with wax or by boiling is not going to stop the weapons of an ork or drow any quicker that it would stop the weapons of a knight or viking, and no matter how long you cry that it's actually dragonskin armour, it isn't, it's cowskin. And, contrary to another popular whine, titanium is NOT mithril, even if it happens to be about the right color and OMG EXPENSIVEness.

[Cecil]

I'm sorry i brought this to the national board when I should have PMed Sir Cairbre Madog.

I had a talk with him last night about how the rings i was looking at wouldn't work anyway. Aluminum mail will fall apart as priviosly sited.

My intrest was not in at advantage i didnt see the differance. that only differance I seen was $$$$$$ it was cheap.

Now I understand save a few bucks with those ment daily repairs.

[The Lost Celt]

Cecil, Chainmaille isn't expensive if you make it yourself. A roll of 14g galvinized fence wire and some chain cutters cost me about $60, and I had plenty of wire left over from a 1/2mi spool. Other tools involved were a few pliers, a drill and a mandrel but compared to leatherwork or advanced metalwork these investments are minimal.

A good leather hide can be twice that...

The trade off is labor, big time. I did 14g on minimum standards and it took me over two weeks, with help, in 8 hour shifts on several occasions.

It's a PITA to build, but it's actually pretty comfortable, more breathable, and flexible than most leather armours, sure it may weigh a bit more, but the way it hangs you wouldn't notice so much.

[Tordek]

I dont understand what the diffrence is between Aluminum and steel other than they dont rust. the shouldnt look and different when they are rings in not asking to make platemail out of popcans

aluminum = 26.98 g/mol

Iron = 55.847 g/mol

55.847-26.98=28.867

different on every level, even atomic.

[Derian]

Also, they do look different.

Aluminum does 'rust', (well, oxidizes) in fact significantly faster than steel or iron. When you think of the color of aluminum, you're seeing aluminum oxide. It's significantly brighter than even stainless steel, usually and does stick out.

[Oisin]

But the aluminum oxide doesn't continue to eat into the fabric of the metal and destroy it. It just creates a surface coating that protects the rest of the material from oxidization.

[Arrakis]

It's also more brittle, has no ductile-brittle transition temperature, work hardens more easily, has a lower tensile strength....

[kritter]

A full shirt out of alum weighs around 15lbs. And at 14 gauge yes it will dent slightly with a metal sword but it will stop it. I do agree that it is not period, but disagree about the protection level of it. The Ring Lord has the 14 gauge rings, and they are listed as ARMOR grade. And the best way to clean it is simple green. And yes I would like to be able to wear my alum chain for events, but I will make new. And I like Belegarth much much better than Dag!!!

[Arrakis]

The Ring Lord has the 14 gauge rings, and they are listed as ARMOR grade.

They list it that way because the SCA allows it as armor.

[kritter]

Very true, and they do hold well to the rotan sword hits. Still sting a bit, that's what I made my alum for was the SCA

[Big King Jimmy]

So would kevlar.

[Arrakis]

For that matter, heavy padding is enough for most of your non-required armor in the SCA.