Belegarth

Hey guys, i know this has been asked several dozen times, but i cant seem to find it in here.
Anyone have some good advice on to harden leather or have links on how to harden leather?

I use an oven-hardening method. Let it soak for a while, some say until there are no more bubbles, but overnight seems to work well too. Then put it in the oven, 180 degrees, until its dry, and hardened.

Edit: Check it every 20 mins or so. If you wait too long, it will get brittle and also look horrible.

we just use the hottest that the tap water will go...stop soaking until it no longer bubbles and then shape the piece preferably on the body. Everywhere I've read has suggested no more than 170 degrees in the oven and to watch it closely...I suggest using an accurate digital meat thermometer to measure because most ovens are NOT accurate.

A blow dryer also is useful on wet leather.

I do NOT suggest boiling the leather, it becomes rock hard, shrinks big time and becomes extremely weakened and brittle.

so if i soaked it with hot water for about a day then use a blow dryer it will harden it
btw i want it hard enough to hold shape when nothing is in it

Most leather will stop bubbling within a few minutes to an hour. I have never had to soak a piece longer than half an hour.

And yes, if you do that, then bake it, it will retain whatever shape you put it into.

1)you do not need to soak it over night. Soaking it for an hour is more than enough.
2)you do not need to use hot water.
3) a hair dryer will not harden the leather, it will dry it. the oven harneding process heats the water inside the leather. This cuases the elastomers in the leather to heat up and change shape(to the shape you want). They then cool after the water steams out, locking in the new shape.
Depending on your elevation, you should heat it to just below boiling, which where I live is about 180. look up your local elevation science if you want an exact number for your house.
Do what luminir said. soak, shape, cook, check, cook more, check again, cook more, bla bla bla.
FB

Couple additions to FB's comments, beyond the fact that they are spot on.

I can confirm that soaking until the bubbles stop works fine. A convection oven cuts the time to harden in half. The following times are using a convection oven, double these times for a normal oven.
For 12 oz. leather, shape after 20 min. Check every 20 min after that until rapped knuckling it hurts. Should only take 40 - 60 min.
For 8 oz. leather, shape after 15 min. and check every 10 min. Should take only 30 min. to harden.

Other lessons learned...

You can dye the leather before hardening, but make sure to seal the dye side before soaking it. If you dye it after, it requires more coats to get a decent color.

Also, you can resoak hardened leather and work it in the oven to reshape if needed. I don't recommend doing this more than once.

For the hesitant wife/roomates, the leather smells strongly during cooking, but the smell dissipates quickly once done and does not remain in the oven.

sweet guys thanks, now im just hopping that what im making fits in the oven.

Burke wrote:For 8 oz. leather, shape after 15 min. and check every 10 min. Should take only 30 min. to harden.

so just to get this right, after 15 min of being in the oven you start shaping more to what you want right? sorry im very technical with this sort of stuff, so i really need things spelled out to me to fully understand

That's exactly what I mean. By the 15 min mark, the 8 oz. leather should be ready to hold a shape. You'll know, because if it isn't, then the next time you check on it, it will have flattened out.

I've primarily been doing armor pieces, so, for instance, for the chest plate, I'll pull it out of the oven and form it over my chest. For the pauldrons, I actually formed the leather over my knee to get a better bowl shape, since it was difficult to get any pressure with on it on my shoulder.

thanks guys, ill give this a shot when i get the leather i need for what im making, sounds alot easier than i thought it was

I tie my pieces into shape with scraps of fabric. This prevents marks in the leather from cords or whatever else and the fabric has a higher burn point than 200* or whatever the peak temp in a ~170*-180* oven is.

Fangesta wrote:I do NOT suggest boiling the leather, it becomes rock hard, shrinks big time and becomes extremely weakened and brittle.

Side note, boiling leather is called courboulli, and it does work, very well in fact, but it is an exact science measured in exact degrees and seconds. If you do it right it will make it stronger then oven hardening. The shrinkage has to be calculated, etc etc etc. If you really want to get into it, it's kinda fun. I apprenticed with a leathersmith back in the day and we made a few of the really big mugs and jugs this way. Very cool.

HesinRaca wrote:Side note, boiling leather is called courboulli

Terrifically unconfirmed. Courbouilli could have been any number of processes.

Arrakis wrote:

HesinRaca wrote:Side note, boiling leather is called courboulli

Terrifically unconfirmed. Courbouilli could have been any number of processes.

And given its unconfirmed nature, it could be the process of boil hardening like numerous leathersmiths believe, just as easily as king arthur could be roman or celtic, depending on what stories you believe.

Regardless of what it's called, boil hardening works **** brilliantly if you do it right, would you disagree? Because I know at least a hundred drinking vessels and jugs that say it works great AND you can club a guy to death with them;)

Do not listen to this Hesian ****.
He's up in the night.
If you ask any profesional leather worker they will tell you NOT to put leather in boiling water.
The best article I have read on it is called "The Perfect Armor" by a guy named Cariadoc. Read it and shut up.
Just because someone HAS done it does not mean it's a good idea or even really possible.
!000's of people have fallen from airplanes without parachutes, or with chutes that didn't open, and lived. I personaly know a guy who landed in a swamp and didn't evn break a bone.
DO NOT JUMP OUT OF A PLANE EITHER.
Boiling leather does not make it stronger. It does not produce a better armor peice than oven hardening. If you use your oven right, it become as hard as is possible without cracking.
Leather is natualy inconsistant. Those inconsistancies cuase harder and softer spots when the piece is flash hardened in boiling water. That is where it will BREAK when it cracks later.
The slowwer method in the oven evens out many of these inconsistancies.
FYI. MOST leather mugs are treated with either a glue process or a bees wax process after initial hardening to seal and protect them. This glue process also mask it somewhat harder, if they use the right glue.
FB

LOL go get em fork!!

You're in a constant state of battle mode, haha!

Well, hey, like I said, I've simply been apprenticing with the guy, I'm no expert, but we did two kinds of mugs. "Wax courboulli" which was just melted bees wax and a heat gun to dry it into the surface, and the boiling method. Did a lot of the second and they came out consistently hardened and stable, so regardless of how angrily you can debate that fact, I held a few dozen proofs that it works great.

You have no idea what I'm like when I'm anrgy.
Mugs are not armor. The inconsistancies I'm talking about would not be as important on a small cylinder. A small cylinder is very strong, no matter what. Large armor peices are different.
Not to mention the fact that your giving bad advice, advice which requires knowlege to which the asker has NO access, to complete novices.
Telling people who don't know how to harden leather to use boiling water is like telling them they can build a car with a solid fuel rocket engine. Yes it can absolutey be done, and will go fast. But your going to ruin your car and probly burn yourself.
You're simply trying to show off some skills you have learned not thinking of that fact that this kid could waste his time money and material.
I'm sure your leather "guru" whom you are aprenticing under knows **** EVERYTHING. I'm sure he fills you head with tales of way back when he was the greatest knight ever. They all do that and are no more quailfied than the rest of us, who actually make armor from the instructions and designs they learned from either the internet or some other ex-fighter chode.
We strive here to give the best advice to people for making Bel armor. Oven hardening is the best advice. It allows you to make anything. It allows you to try again when you **** up. It is not dangerous and takes no special equiptment.
It also makes leather as hard as it will ever be withouth compromising the structural integrity.
I'm not angry, I'm right.
FB

The topic was leather hardening, so I threw in what few pennies I have in the situation. I'm not here to impress anyone, just sat down at the computer and figured I'd see what people were talking about. If someone hurts themselves trying something I mentioned it's their own fault, but it's not that hard to be safe.

And no, he wasn't a knight, he's just a chubby old leathersmith who makes armour, mugs, quivers, etc, with various techniques.

I like you Fork, so I'm not going to argue with you anymore, but before you go on your web-nerd-rampages maybe you should try and give the benefit of the doubt before you freak out on someone. You're much nicer on facebook, maybe you need to change your phpbb3 theme to something more soothing.

Zuloo: It's not that **** hard but as the master of the universe has pointed out, it has to be done right, and it can be dangerous if you're an idiot about it. So do the oven method. Good luck. Post some photos of what you get done, would be cool to see it.

HesinRaca wrote:Zuloo: It's not that **** hard but as the master of the universe has pointed out, it has to be done right, and it can be dangerous if you're an idiot about it. So do the oven method. Good luck. Post some photos of what you get done, would be cool to see it.

dude calm down a bit, its an internet discussion, you take everything here with a grain of salt, don't start attacking everyone that doesn't agree with your method of hardening leather, your getting * and theres no need for it

Let's focus.
Zuloo, what are you making?
FB

just for **** and giggles (and as a backup for the assassins tourney) im making a back scabbard for a short broadsword, im going to use 6 oz brown leather

Zuloo wrote:

HesinRaca wrote:Zuloo: It's not that **** hard but as the master of the universe has pointed out, it has to be done right, and it can be dangerous if you're an idiot about it. So do the oven method. Good luck. Post some photos of what you get done, would be cool to see it.

dude calm down a bit, its an internet discussion, you take everything here with a grain of salt, don't start attacking everyone that doesn't agree with your method of hardening leather, your getting * and theres no need for it

Haha. Dude, no worries. I'm unphasable. "Master of the universe" was sarcasm. Besides, **** talking is part of this forum, I would be seriously concerned if FB wasn't intense. And I'm serious, it would be sweet to see what you make, a back scabbard sounds pretty cool actually. Are you going to be doing any dye?

Here's an article on various ways to harden leather...

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... er/hl.html

As stated before butter zone appears to be 170/180F, some ovens with the "warm" option tend to keep it at 200 and even then temp can vary from what it's telling you, honestly if it starts changing color there's a good chance you might've roached the piece.

Tip on wax, at least for me, I'll never do it again - cuts easier because the fibers are locked into place and I almost got heat stroke because it just does not breathe.

Had one knight recently show me a piece of leg armor that he wetted and hit the inside up with a map torch. I'm not sure what to make of this yet but I think I might try it on my next lamellar project... (really I just want an excuse to use a blowtorch, I use it to heat the knives to cut foam anyway)

ok one more noob leather question, which is best? dying the leather before or after hardening it?

Zuloo wrote:ok one more noob leather question, which is best? dying the leather before or after hardening it?

I prefer after.

The water you use to harden it will wash out some of the dye, so do it after, then seal it.

You should dye it before. After you harden it, leather does not want to soak up dye as well. It takes 2-3 coats to get the same tone after hardening as you get from one before.
FB

Forkbeard wrote:You should dye it before. After you harden it, leather does not want to soak up dye as well. It takes 2-3 coats to get the same tone after hardening as you get from one before.
FB

Leesten to heeem, hee knows!

plus if you dye it after it's put together you can't get to all the spots as well, some pieces need to be shaped as a whole to get the proper shaping.

thanks guys! maybe now i wont fail so hard at making anything out of leather

Just ran the numbers for our local boiling point, Zuloo. Water boil temp is 206-212 Farenheit 'round these parts. That's Stygia for ya.

sweet, baking leather at 200 degrees