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 Post subject: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:24 pm 
Underling
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Would these work for studs?

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/store/1330-88.aspx

I'm not really familiar with this sort of stuff, but I am interested in making a studded sort of half skirt. These things are super on sale.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:46 am 
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Can you stud cloth for armor in Bel? I was under the impression that it had to be a minimum thickness in leather with studds 1/2 inch apart to be counted as leather.

As far as the studs from tandy I've used both the staple type and the new line of rivet set stud. I prefer the rivet type, they stay on better, you can be much more accurate in your placement and don't cut into your leather if you set them to hard.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:02 am 
Brute
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Unfortunately yes you can.

The studs have to be a half inch apart...and you are going to have to have a lt of them...but its sadly legal.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:31 am 
Backstabber
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As sad as that is it just means that I need to add a "few" more studs to my light armor from amtgard to use it for Bel, that's kinda exciting to me.

The Difference between this:
Image

To This:

Image

Really adds up by the end of the day when armor counts as only 1 pt.

Granted that second piece was recently replace with a leather version (the outside leather piece of my Brig that I decided not to add because I liked the look of the exposed plates:

(Ignore the power Ranger Helm, I made that 7-8 years ago and brought it out to make my wife laugh)

Image

So I'll be adding more studs to this soon then.... and then the other set for a loaner.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:39 am 
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Yes, this is legal.
But please use leather for the shirt. Cloth is going to look aweful. Tandy also has thin, garment type leather on sale for $40 for a whole hide. Use it.
What you make will last longer and look WAY batter, Plus you'll have enough to make your girlfreind a leather bikini.
I use a circular pattern that keeps all the studs within 3/8" from each other. It make the overall effect nicer in the end.
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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:22 pm 
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Kage wrote:
I don't know but I think the marshals that are passing it need to be taught what makes up armor.

Considering the rules regarding composite armor checking:
BoW wrote:
3.1.7. Composite - Armor constructed of both metal and leather.

3.2. Armor must be passed by Marshals from two separate realms, assuming an inter-realm event.

3.7.2. Composite Armor must be identifiable as Armor by appearance.


I would say that this is problem due to bad mashaling.

However, it's not just the marshals who broke the rules by allowing it but also the people who made it.

BoW wrote:
1.4. Creative interpretation of the rules to gain any advantage is discouraged. These rules are intentionally sparse to allow for ease of use. The Marshal, according to these rules, and medieval foam combat precedent, settles all disputes.


Now I don't see a need to add anything to the rules considering what Composite Armor is defined as. See rule 3.1.7 above. Anyone claiming that there thumb tac shirt is legal is a moron and they should have read the rules. Sorry if I sound crabby, but I'm seriously tired of stupid * debates. A cloth shirt with metal on it is NOT armor nor will it ever count as armor in my opinon; end of story. As for anyone who claims it is armor your realm leader should be taken out back and shot, because he failed to do his job in teaching you how the sport works; mean while you should be placed in front of every one and beaten with a hose.

Secondly armor if made right isn't encumbering. I have a friend who does backflips in his SCA plate. I'm not talking made with plastic; that doesn't fly in my area its all steel or get made fun of until you have it.

Probably going to post this in the other thread too.


Fitz the only thing I didn't like about your armor when I saw you at Yestare was the cloth under your plates. Don't get me wrong it looks like a badass coat of plates and it looks absolutely amazing in person but it's still cloth underneath. I would have a very hard time saying it fails too because I have seen it in person and I know that the plates are pretty much touching as well as way more than 2/3 is covered by metal or leather. That being said I would leave it up to the host/marshal at the event to say whether or not it passes. Assuming that your black one is actually leather it would pass with the proper amount of studs no problem.

If you want some minimum composite do what Fork said and buy some garment leather and stud it the way he said to or put plates on it like Fitz's.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:34 pm 
Underling
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Thanks for your replies

Not really sure why you guys are down on this Idea though, considering that closely spaced studs like this would offer 'some' protection against the slashes of actual blades (similar to chain I would suppose). Granted against larger weapons it would be useless. Beyond that, layered thick fabric would in itself protect to a small degree against stabs.

My thought for the cloth was not just some thin tacky bit of polyester but rather three layers of gray or brown denim like cloth quilted together, with fur along the edges. Which would probably have just as much stopping power as thin leather. My hope was to use this to accent the rest of my actual leather armor. I thought that a little bit of variety in materials would look better than just solid armor grade leather. Really its only for a small piece, a half skirt that would only cover my * and the sides of my thighs.

What do you guys think, would that look like crap on the field? Honestly I would think that having two different kinds of leather would look a little bit strange.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:37 pm 
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I honestly think you should do what Fork said to and buy some garment leather. It's not armor grade but it will look a ton nicer than any denim or cloth you use. You can still add the fur and what not around the edges and even dye it some color to accent the rest of your kit.

Edit:
Also if its going over your armor then by all means use cloth but I wouldn't count the cloth as armor by itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:59 pm 
Underling
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Well yeah, the cloth itself is not armor. I was assuming it was the metal studs that made it armor. Part of the reason that I was wanting to use some thick cloth, (perhaps thick woven cloth) was that it would match some of that garb that I've got already that I sort of like. Anyways, I like the color gray, but I'm not the biggest fan of gray leather. I do like the idea of the drastically different materials, and since the majority of armor (Lower legs, chest, back, and bracers) would be armor grade leather It would be not just be some cheesy piece. I plan on putting in a lot of work to make it look good. Does this still sound like a crap Idea? Really the only reason I'm switching it up is to make it look like more than a noobs first try at armor.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:24 pm 
Brute
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Divit wrote:
Not really sure why you guys are down on this Idea though...


The reason that people are down on your idea is that studded cloth isn't armor and really has no protective value what so ever. By and large its used by people who are trying to get by with as little weight and effort so they can have the extra hit that armor provides.

I'm not saying that's you, but that is typical of what I normally see when people are wanting to build studded cloth.

Historically...studded cloth or soft leather armor never existed. It was probably a misinterpretation of a coat of plates, which from the outside looks like studded cloth, but contains plates of armor on the inside which actually provide protection.

That's why you are catching flack for this.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:13 am 
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I agree with the fact that studded cloth is not an accurate armor. i disagree with the fact that it offers no protection. sure a single layer of denim with metal studs in it will shred easily. but on the oposit end several layers of Denim or heavy canvas quilted together and the hardened and studded would be just as effective as chainmail. wasn't the purpose of chainmail to stop you from getting CUT only and to deflect the blows of SLASHING weapons. chainmail offers no protection from bludgeoning weapons. i can see a well made shirt of studded cloth (several layers of heavy canvas QUILTED and then stiffened and studded) offering this same protection. in contrast the life of the armor wouldnt nearly be as long as a shirt of chainmail would as over time i will eventually weaken and start to shred .

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:43 am 
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Kage, my "heavy" set, the Brig in the first picture has a leather backing (not cloth), the same grade leather as the 3rd pic just inside out (rough side out). The leather in the 3rd picture was origninally going to be the outside layer for the brig but I liked the look of the Exposed plates so much that I left it off. Only last month did I take that Extra Leather layer out and studd it for 2pt Amt Armor.

The middle Pic is the cloth armor, it's nagahid, the heavy cloth with Vinyl coating, some call it pleather. It was originally made as wet/cold weather garb for winter time, I studded it for Amt as well, at least the torso section, I never have finished studding the whole thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:46 am 
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Isk has a really good "class" he gives about the historocity of cloth and chain armor. I can't do it justice, but I believe the gist of it is that paintings (and documents?) from the era show soldiers wearing padded jacks over their chainmail with arrows sticking out of them but still carrying on the fight. As I recall him saying, the cloth (15-30 layers of quilted linen) were used to stop the stabbing action of arrows, provide padding/cushion, as well as to protect the expensive chain mail underneath which in turn blocked the slashes from getting through to the body but otherwise slashed right through the padded jack. If the cloth were worn under the chain then the arrows could get in between the links and split/pop them, and the slashes from bladed weapons would also damage the chainmail, which was more expensive.

Embara, I'm thinking "several" layers of denim wouldn't quite do it, and by the time you're putting the studs close enough to deflect slashes as effectively as chain you might as well be wearing chain or plate.

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Last edited by Tiberius Claudius on Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:48 am 
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Embara Cayosin wrote:
I agree with the fact that studded cloth is not an accurate armor. i disagree with the fact that it offers no protection. sure a single layer of denim with metal studs in it will shred easily. but on the oposit end several layers of Denim or heavy canvas quilted together and the hardened and studded would be just as effective as chainmail. wasn't the purpose of chainmail to stop you from getting CUT only and to deflect the blows of SLASHING weapons. chainmail offers no protection from bludgeoning weapons. i can see a well made shirt of studded cloth (several layers of heavy canvas QUILTED and then stiffened and studded) offering this same protection. in contrast the life of the armor wouldnt nearly be as long as a shirt of chainmail would as over time i will eventually weaken and start to shred .


Having done armor type tests with crappy replica swords and knives in my younger days I can guarentee you that you are sadly mistaken. Search some of the cold steel cutting tests on youttube, or just google swords vs chainmail test, sword vs cloth test. Not even remotely close.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:28 am 
Brute
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Embara Cayosin wrote:
several layers of Denim or heavy canvas quilted together and the hardened and studded would be just as effective as chainmail.



Embara Cayosin wrote:

i can see a well made shirt of studded cloth (several layers of heavy canvas QUILTED and then stiffened and studded) offering this same protection.


No.

I am not sure what you mean by hardened and stiffened, but that's the opposite of what you want to do with cloth armor. The strength of cloth armor is that the fibers flex and are harder to cut. Stiffening and or hardening them would make the armor less effective.

Having said that, forget the studs. The Studs, no matter how close you put them together will do absolutely nothing to protect you against any of the following types of damage. Piercing, Slashing, Stabbing, Blunt and any other type of damage you can think of.

The problem is that the studs are not linked in any way and they are on a flexible surface, which means when something stabs them, they move out of the way rather than absorb the damage. Blunt force damage will simply push them into your own skin making your problem even worse.

Studded Armor = Bad


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:11 am 
Underling
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Kade, I agree with you on studs doing nothing to block the vast majority of damage. However I don't think that I nor Embara were arguing that they protected against anything other than the cutting action of a blade. Hack, stabs and bashes still get through. But that is the same as chain. Perhaps with studs you may only block 50% of the slashes as you have to be lucky enough for the blade to land on the stud.

Again though, cloth by itself (except in the extremely layer fashion mentioned above) would do nothing to protect itself. In this instance the cloth is merely a semi-rigid backing for small strategically placed bits of metal. If you can show me a knife that can cut (not hack) through metal, then I will kiss your feet if I ever meet you.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:13 am 
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And i am arguing that they won't even protect you against that.

The cutting action of a blade comes AFTER the initial Hacking of a blade. In order for your theory to work, a swordsman would have to come up next to you, lay the sword against your body and start sawing. But it won't even protect against that the second any force is applied.

In order for any protection to occur, you have to ether stop or misdirect the action of the blade. Studs will simply move to the side on a cloth backing. Any force applied shifts them to the side. Studs will misdirect the blade sure, but they misdirect it into whatever is behind them, which in this case is a cloth backing covering you.

Ill leave it to the other more experienced guys to give you the math and whatnot. I suspect that they are simply still sleeping at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:34 am 
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**** I wrote a huge * great post and lost it.
Heres the gist.
Cloth armor was used all over for the duration of hand to hand warfare. You * need to read more.
It is crap compared to chain. But that doesn't mean that people didn't use it.
Divit, you idea sound really cool. 3 layer of heavy fabric with a good texture, lined with fur will look cool.
Try to use 2 colors of styles of stud and get a pattern going. Draw some swirly, knoty lines all over it with sharpies. Really make it cool.
It will be a great example of minimum armor when you done.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:05 pm 
Underling
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I think you would be right if the fabric was thin enough to tear, or if the blade was only impacting a single stud. The hope would be though that if there were sufficient studs and they were arranged properly that you would always be hitting a number of studs. Even if the studs moved some, they would at least disperse some of the force. Turning what might be a deep and lethal wound into something you could recover from.

Anyways, I think I'll give this a shot. With Tandy's sale the price is manageable even if it is a failed project. I'll post pics once I get started on it. Also Forkbeard, I'll PM you my design ideas and get your crafting impute. I'm thinking of trying to mount the skirt on a belt with a sweet looking buckle, but I'm not 100% sure on how to do it though...


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:33 pm 
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Fitz Caliston wrote:

Having done armor type tests with crappy replica swords and knives in my younger days I can guarentee you that you are sadly mistaken. Search some of the cold steel cutting tests on youttube, or just google swords vs chainmail test, sword vs cloth test. Not even remotely close.


all these are done against one or two layers of cloth of course it is going to cut right through when deliberately trying to cut them. in case you forgot denim was created for the heavy working class to protect ones legs from the harsh conditions in coal mines and such. before that heavy canvas was used (that's actuality all REAL denim is) but you cant see past two facts One Most swords are not Kept to a razor shape edge like knifes are. the edges are rounded over to keep the blade fro being nicked during blade on steel contact. and two you would be designing this to be armor. so you would have 15+ layers of the stuff. id like to see someone cut that many layers of HEAVY cloth with a proper sword.

a well made piece would also have the fabric Grain alternating which would minimize how many layers would be cut through. liek chainmail this would only be efficient against slashing attacks. ans as was pointed out earlier arrows would stick in the cloth aswell.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:55 pm 
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No one is arguing that cloth was never used as armor. Clearly it was.

We are talking about a couple layers of cloth with studs on it. (studded cloth)

Studs, as they are being used here, aren't armor and wouldn't work as armor.

Cloth...a couple layers isn't armor and really has no protective value. It would never have been used as armor.

Thats my only real point.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Embara Cayosin wrote:
Fitz Caliston wrote:

Having done armor type tests with crappy replica swords and knives in my younger days I can guarentee you that you are sadly mistaken. Search some of the cold steel cutting tests on youttube, or just google swords vs chainmail test, sword vs cloth test. Not even remotely close.


all these are done against one or two layers of cloth of course it is going to cut right through when deliberately trying to cut them. in case you forgot denim was created for the heavy working class to protect ones legs from the harsh conditions in coal mines and such. before that heavy canvas was used (that's actuality all REAL denim is) but you cant see past two facts One Most swords are not Kept to a razor shape edge like knifes are. the edges are rounded over to keep the blade fro being nicked during blade on steel contact. and two you would be designing this to be armor. so you would have 15+ layers of the stuff. id like to see someone cut that many layers of HEAVY cloth with a proper sword.

a well made piece would also have the fabric Grain alternating which would minimize how many layers would be cut through. liek chainmail this would only be efficient against slashing attacks. ans as was pointed out earlier arrows would stick in the cloth aswell.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

I apologize for submitting a cached website, but it's the only way I can get around my work's horrible filtering of such an evil website categorized as "weapons". The website conducts tests (w/ pics!) of swords slashing and stabbing as well as arrows against jacks of multiple layers and good riveted maille.

This is the conclusion portion of the website.

Quote:
Conclusion: a jack, worn by itself, is easily defeated by thrusting weapons, even those seemingly not optimized for the thrust. Acutely pointed longsword gripped in the half-sword position make short work of even 30 layer jacks. The ease with which the Talhoffer, Regent and Brescia Spadona penetrated the 30 layer jack makes me believe they would have no problem with a thicker jack or one made from thicker layers.

A jack, particularly one more than 10 layers thick is a very good defense against swords not optimized for the cut, but a cutting sword like a katana (and perhaps a falchion or messer) makes short work of them. The katana absolutely devastated the jack, and the Brescia Spadona, a civilian dueling longsword, was able to defeat a 20 layer jack. Very surprising indeed.

Where the jack rally shines is against arrows. Even a 10 layer jack stopped my arrows cold, and I believe medieval bodkins wouldn’t fare any better. These tests have gone a long way towards convincing me that the jack was used primarily as a defense against arrows.

When considering the effect of various swords on the jack, it is important to understand that the person wielding the sword has to be experienced. Some member of NYHFA with limited cutting experience also attempted to cut the jack, but they did not succeed. It’s not easy to penetrate a jack, not even with a good sword.

Based on the tests, I formed some impressions of the swords I used, and in closing, I’d like to share them with you:

Albion Talhoffer: perhaps the most versatile sword of the group, it cuts well against unarmored targets and has a deadly point that can pierce the thickest jack and given a sufficiently strong thrust, some very good maille.

Albion Earl/Regent: a powerful war sword that is tough enough for almost anything with an acute point that makes short work of textile armor.

Albion Brescia Spadona: the best cutter of any longsword I have ever used with a wicked point that can defeat any jack. It’s only weakness is derived from it’s strength as a cutter…it’s flexibility. However, used with a half-sword grip, that weakness disappears. I wouldn’t use it against maille, but then it was never intended for that.

My katana: what a weapon! Although I wouldn’t want to be caught in a duel with someone wielding a longsword (the thing is too short!), it feels like it can cut through anything and is a much better thruster than I thought.

Atrim 1508: an excellent and versatile all around sword. Not quite the cutter some of the Albions are against historically correct media, it handles as well as the Brescia and can take a lot of abuse without suffering edge damage.


In short, different weapons were purposely designed and used against particular types of armor/opponents with specific tactics in mind. Our game doesn't differentiate between different types of armor and their abilities vs different types of weapons. Because of that, we should make sure that any armor on the field is historical or has the ability to actually stop weapons. If it can do that and is "period", it should be legal.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:13 pm 
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Fitz Caliston wrote:
Kage, my "heavy" set, the Brig in the first picture has a leather backing (not cloth), the same grade leather as the 3rd pic just inside out (rough side out). The leather in the 3rd picture was origninally going to be the outside layer for the brig but I liked the look of the Exposed plates so much that I left it off. Only last month did I take that Extra Leather layer out and studd it for 2pt Amt Armor.

The middle Pic is the cloth armor, it's nagahid, the heavy cloth with Vinyl coating, some call it pleather. It was originally made as wet/cold weather garb for winter time, I studded it for Amt as well, at least the torso section, I never have finished studding the whole thing.

My bad Fitz I could have swore it was a cloth backing when I saw it at Yestare. I should have taken a closer look at it while I was there just remember getting blinded by it many times; my apologies.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:29 pm 
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ya think my set blinds, you should see Yoshi's, I made him actually polish all his pieces to near mirror shine:

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:54 pm 
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Geez dude! That's nuts.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:38 am 
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Yeah, but the time I decided not to add the over layer of leather to my brig I was way to far allong to go back and start polishing. So when we did his (with much larger plates) I had him one the grinder/polishers for each plate.

I'd get a plate cut out and holes drilled by the time he have the previous one polished.... funny thing is that he doesn't ware it.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:46 am 
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I would take it but I doubt it would fit me.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:29 pm 
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I don't know that I'd acutally want to sell it without doing ALOT of modifications to it. We built it originaly as washer brig but it ended up being to heavy for him and only really covered his torso and arms.

Later we tore it apart and used the inner layer of leather to make a skirt type setup so that it would offer better coverage and that is when we cut out the aluminum plates for it trying to bring the weight down enough that his little frame could wear it.

He's worn it a few times in battles that actually counted toward something, otherwise he hates to wear armor for many reasons aside from just the weight.

I'll probably hold onto it until my oldest son starts seriously battlegaming with us in a few years and then finish it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Fitz Caliston wrote:
.....and that is when we cut out the aluminum plates...
The one you wear to Bel isn't aluminum either, is it? That'd be illegal.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:03 pm 
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uummm,.... no not at all <shifty eyes> ummm.....

Yes, Yes it is aluminum, and I've told that every time I've had it at a bel event to the armor guys and they pass it for being so freaking bad *. Someone once told me that aluminum wasn't legal but that the leather under it and the studs(rivets) holding the plates to the leather would by themselves be considered legal so he was just ignoring the plates and considering them decorations.

That said I didn't even wear it at the last Bel Event (Yestarie or Samhain?), it's to heavy to be effectively "Ditching" (amtgard term) all day long in the heat in. Heavy armor (even as light as that is) doesn't agree with my back for long. I'm getting older and more broken every year. I don't even wear it at Amtgard unless there is something that specifically needs me to be playing Warrior with 6pts of armor.

In fact I'd probably sell it if someone was willing to pay me the materials costs.... anyone? lols


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:03 am 
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Several people have posted in this thread an opinion that, in Europe, swords were not sharpened so they would not be damaged so much by combat. I would like to point out that among the people who research and publish on this topic this is debatable. It seems this was often the case with later cavalry swords, but there is a significant body of scholars who would provide both artifactual and textual evidence that European swords were kept sharp as a rule. A padded jack was primarily an excellent defense against non-cutting arrows. it would also help against stabs and hacks, but a clean, solid strike from a sharp sword could generally defeat it (still a better defense than unhardened leather). Incidentally, this is why they often wore the jack on the outside of chain -- it stops the arrows before they get to the chain and the chain stops the swords and spears.

As far as allowing or encouraging cloth armor for belegarth, any 'armor' that contains batting should be burned immediately. A bare minimum standard for a realistic padded jack should be 15 layers of actual cloth (normally linen, could be silk). I don't think a measurement like 3/16" will work very well because with so many layers it will be tough to tell if the 3/16" is all tight cloth or just not stitched together very well. I say you should be able to count the layers on the side or something, just like a checker needs to check the thickness of leather pieces in pocket brig.

And studded cloth is even worse than the ghay leather jacket with brads armor some people have. I like to optimize my equipment for our sport, but have not been able to stoop to making a leather tabard with some rivets on it for in-game advantage. Maybe I should make a few of these just to get people torqued off enough to do something to refine the composite armor rules. IMO, a composite armor should be able to stand alone as either leather or metal armor and the composite component should just be how it's held together.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:41 pm 
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Tell ya what. I'll make a small section of this stuff, put a steak under it, then hack and slash it with the blades I've got around the house. If I succeed in making a brisket, then we can call it crap.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:44 pm 
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I wonder if we could get MythBusters to weigh in on this issue...

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:29 am 
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Divit wrote:
Tell ya what. I'll make a small section of this stuff, put a steak under it, then hack and slash it with the blades I've got around the house. If I succeed in making a brisket, then we can call it crap.

Divit, test cutting can make for some great barbecue or stir-fry, so enjoy that experiment. However, I was trying to tell you above that experiments with cloth armors have been done by scholars extremely experienced with the use of these weapons and the construction of the armor. In experimental archaeological work, applying as much knowledge and experience as possible makes soooo much difference. If you are going to make some serious cloth armor, I give fifteen layers of linen as that was a bare-minimum for a low-quality padded jack in a few feudal conscription records.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:21 am 
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In the intrest of this thread I am studding the cuffs on my gloves. I figured I could show an example of good studded crap.
Pic's later.
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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Hellenistic cultures, such as the Seleucids, used a form of quilted armor, which assisted with the removal of arrows; the cloth would be bound around the points of an arrowhead as the arrow went in, and would make it easier to pull the arrow from the wound. I

By the medieval era it was used for arrow-removal as above, and for cushioning under other armor from blows by blunt weapons, aka maces, flails, ball-and-chains, etc. Studs alone I don't believe would do much to strengthen the cloth, and in fact could prove detrimental to it's life expectancy; making holes in cloth weakens it, and you'd have to make a lot of holes to add enough studs to do anything other than look impressive.

The metal over the fabric looks like reasonable armor to me; I've seen pictures of brigantines that were metal plates encased in velvet from Italy, so cloth was obviously used in their construction.

Still though, garment grade leather, or a decent grade suede will last a lot longer, look better, and be easier to get a lot of studs into without causing as many potential tears.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:14 pm 
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Here's my new studded cuff gloves. Actually, they are my old gloves with studs.
Anyway, you get me.
If you use less studs per area than this, you are doing it wrong.
Image
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Nice work Fork but why bother doing the under side of the wrist?

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:42 pm 
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Because it looks cooler. Style is everything if the armor has no substance. That's the whole point.
If a person is going to do something low, like making intentionaly bare minimum armor, they had **** better make it look beatiful. That way it is a visual benifit to the field and everyone pictures at least.
Also, studding stuff to within the tolerance of the rules is not easy or light. It takes alot of work to make this **** look good and when its done it's really pretty heavy for what it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:45 am 
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Forkbeard wrote:
Because it looks cooler. Style is everything if the armor has no substance. That's the whole point.
If a person is going to do something low, like making intentionaly bare minimum armor, they had **** better make it look beatiful. That way it is a visual benifit to the field and everyone pictures at least.

This is crazy true. Just like the garb thing, the better it looks the more interest people have in it.
A few nights ago I went in to the store with the new garb I had just sewn and a rando guy stopped me to ask me what I was wearing, why, and how he could get involved. Aperantly hes some big tennis finnatic but the back and forth on the court is doin a number on his knees, so he thinks Bel will be a good substitute.
Point being, looking good helps the sport.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:22 pm 
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To Add to Purp and fork about good garb/equipment as a recruiting tool:

Our Amt group got Business cards professionally made (thanks Loptr and Sindari) with our groups website and yahoo group info along with our heraldry etc on them.

I make sure to keep a stack of them in my belt pouch when I wear garb into a store (and on the field for passers-by). Any time someone stops to ask me about it I can wip one out give them a quick explanation, say where we play and move along. It's important not to come on too strong for most people but to still give a compotent answer. Looking good is a great way to get them to approach and ask questions. Overloading mundanes is a quick way to run them off. Having a flier we've found is often bulky and gets tossed. A little card is easy to put in the pocket and find latter.


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:27 pm 
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Forkbeard wrote:
Here's my new studded cuff gloves. Actually, they are my old gloves with studs.
Anyway, you get me.
If you use less studs per area than this, you are doing it wrong.
Image
FB


Nice. This example was needed, I think. Is the maximum diagonal spacing 0.5"? Less?


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:17 am 
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It's a little less in most places and just there in others. Maybe its a little wide in one or two. I could have place a few better.
In all they are about 3/8" apart in 4 directions, but the pattern goes around the eye in the middle so it's not exact.
It made them alot heavier.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:30 pm 
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Divit and everyone else spouting these lovely larp physics idiocies: You have no idea what you're talking about, so please stop.

There is a real difference between several layers of canvas used for protection from scrapes and environmental harshness in industrial situations and a powerful human being swinging a sword at you with real intent to harm. You might not quite grasp quite how effective a weapon a sword is, or how powerful the human body is when used properly.

Yes, cloth armour was used. Based on illustrations from various time periods and surviving examples from the later medieval and renaissance time frames, they were generally made of between 30 and 40 layers of linen quilted together. You start getting a little bit of protection around 15 layers, but it's not until 25ish layers that you get a really significant armour.

But . . . it's still not anywhere near as good as real mail. Maybe 1/3 as effective. Better than leather, though.

If anyone's actually interested in reading some real research about armour, a very good starting place is a book called The Knight and the Blast Furnace by Alan Williams. It's pretty rare and usually quite expensive because only a small run were printed, so see if you can get it from your library. It's also very thick. Published in 2003, and considered one of the foremost publications on the production, use and function of armour. Includes a significant appendix detailing experiments conducted scientifically with real force measurements pitting many different weapons against many different armours.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:34 pm 
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Here's a link that Stellaria had posted over on the Dagorhir board:

The first page has some good pictures of what padded armor would look like as well as the results of some destructive tests:

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Yup. That's one of the better amateur tests floating around. Good material, not quite scientific but useful anecdotally.

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:19 pm 
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Holy crap! This thing got necroed? Anyways, I thought it was established earlier that the cloth part of the armor was not the protective factor, but rather the studs... Why does that point keep getting argued? I think the only point I tried to make was the fact that layered canvass should be considered no different from garment leather.

So can we be done until I make this ****? I've got the studs, the belt, and the fur, and the cloth is all picked out!


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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:45 pm 
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Great, make it and feel free to bring it to an event outside your own realm so the rest of us can fail it for you.

No, nothing of the sort was ever established. What was established is that you want to make this armour and no one else thinks you should be allowed to, and in fact most of them are probably too polite to say what they really think, which is you're trying to be a turd and cheese the rules. Sewing a few studs into a few layers of canvas does not armour make.

Also, it's not really a necro if it's just a dozen topics down the front page. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:26 am 
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Actually, the stud,in this case do count as armor. They are 20ga+. If they are close enough together it meets the rules.
but it will be heavier that plain leather, though more flexible.
whether or not we think it should pass, it does acording to the rules. It is the very bottom of the barrel.
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 Post subject: Re: Studded cloth armor
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:34 pm 
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Fork, there are several ways to read the rather badly written rules. It's not really clear, but from my rather biased opinion I think armour checkers would be perfectly in their right to fail studded cloth armour because composite armour has to be made of leather and metal.

Definitely bottom of the horse **** barrel, though.

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