Scale Armor

Leather, Chain and Plate

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Scale Armor

Postby Tordek » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:10 pm

One point of clarification i have about this armor, does it count as rigid metal armor? I did do a search for this and not very much difinitive answers came up for this particular question.

3.1.3. Rigid Metal - Armor constructed of discrete or continuous metal plate.

I have been looking into the ring lord scales, and they seem to have added a larger size of scales, and yes, the tips do not conform to the penny round rule, but the BOW states that only rigid metal armor must conform to the penny round rule.

3.1.8.1. The edge of rigid metal Armor shall have the smoothness of the edge of a penny.
3.1.8.2. The edge of rigid metal Armor shall have less cutting ability than the edge of a penny.
3.1.8.3. The radius of any rigid metal corner must be greater than the radius of a penny.
3.6.3. Rigid Metal must conform to the Penny Round standard.
3.3. Armor must not catch appendages. Fingers should not catch in Armor. This includes articulated plates and large diameter chain.


If the larger scales from the ring lord count as rigid metal armor, where can i find ones that will pass as armor, if anywhere? When i read the rules for that, i interpret them as plate armor must not have sharp edges, and yes, each individual scale may not pass the penny rule, but as a large amount of them layered together would have more points of contact, it would lessen the chances for damage or injury. If i am just completely wrong, please give me the reasoning behind it so that we can put a clarification up on the boards if not just clarifying the rules to state that scales count as ridig metal armor. I have posted all the relevent rules, the only one i see as any problem would be 3.1.8.3, but i dont know how the new size is.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Tordek » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:48 pm

The Ring Lord also has round scales (disks), i would have to assume the work if the meet thickness requirements because they are a dished circle.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Mekoot Rowan » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:17 am

Pictures or a link of what you're talking about would assist people in answering your question. In general, scaled metal can be hard to get passed because of the points.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Forkbeard » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:05 am

The penny round rule is going to apply to to any metal armor than can cut into either weapons or flesh. The scales the ring lord sells that are point fail fail fail. When hit against the grain of the scales, they are a **** cheese grater and will tear the **** out of foam weapons or exposed flesh.
I have no idea about the round ones, you'll have to post pic's
On a side note, that kind of scale, they kind connected by rings underneath, is NOT ARMOR. it would not offer any protection against ANY weapon. Also, it can be stabbed through without even damaging the armor. It's nonsense. This combined with the potential to ruin weapons make it a truly sub par choice for armor in foam fighting.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Sage » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:44 pm

FB is correct about the leaf scales that ringlord produces. I have two bracers that are leather with the scales over it and for **** and giggles me and Grease damage tested them against bel weapons. Two hits later we had to retire the sword because the scales devoured it. Core was exposed in one area and we knew that the armor would do the same to garb and flesh. They are also a pain in the * to make, prone to rusting in most cases, and are expensive as hell. HOWEVER. As a garb piece they shine. So if you are dead set on getting them go for the aluminum ones for a garb set bc they are only really useful in that situation. IMO
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Tordek » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:55 pm

alright, so while I understand the first rule of this sport is safety to the combatants, would it be possible to put a clarification into the rules next time there is a war council that changes the wording to just remove rigid from the rigid metal armor penny round rules. i.e. "metal armor must not have the cutting power of a penny" rather than "rigid metal armor must not have the cutting power of a penny" because as it stands, Scale armor is not rigid metal, and as the rules are written, does not conform to the penny round standard.

please note, I am not trying to look for a loop hole to get pointed scales to pass, I understand that they chew up weapons. I am asking the the rules be clarified so some newb who happens to be good at finding loopholes dosent show up and demand that a similar set of armor be legal because it falls within the requirements set by the rules.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Sir Guts » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:52 pm

While the whole suit of scale mail is flexible like chain mail to a degree, each individual scale is a rigid piece of metal. No rules clarification is needed.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby jiujitsufighter » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:16 am

With that logic chainmail is rigid metal armor because each individual ring is a rigid piece of metal. I would have to agree with Hardiron.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Tordek » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:00 am

jiujitsufighter wrote:With that logic chainmail is rigid metal armor because each individual ring is a rigid piece of metal. I would have to agree with Hardiron.


other than conflicting with rule 3.1.3, that wouldn't even matter, where are you going to find chain that cuts more than a penny other than a broken ring?

However, I still believe a friendly amendment to the rules to clarify the wording, not the intent, would be beneficial. I had my buddy read the rules and he interpreted it the same way that i did. The armor rules are rather vague when it comes to metal and even scale (technically classified as composite armor, not even metal, so again, no penny round rule), I just believe it would be beneficial to newer fighters so that they keep real expectations of what they can use.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby jiujitsufighter » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:56 am

where are you going to find chain that cuts more than a penny other than a broken ring?

Flat mail

According to these rules, it could be interpreted that all chainmail would fall under "discrete" rigid metal because "plate" is not operationally defined and is open to interpretation.

I was just trying to back you up but you utterly missed the point. I agree the rules are vague in some spots but generally common sense prevails.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Forkbeard » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:01 am

IF some kid shows up and demands to be allowed to wear this type of ar.or because they THINK it is legal, they will simply be educsated as to why it is not legal and made to take it off. If said kid throws a fit, he will be asked to leave the event.
no rule change is needed.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby jiujitsufighter » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:17 pm

Forkbeard wrote:IF some kid shows up and demands to be allowed to wear this type of ar.or because they THINK it is legal, they will simply be educsated as to why it is not legal and made to take it off. If said kid throws a fit, he will be asked to leave the event.
no rule change is needed.
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Can we get the written into the BOW?
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Zeldrine Cold » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:28 pm

It IS in the BoW. Not that exact wording, but between the lines it is IMO. If someone is trying to use something that isn't safe any herald worth anything would stop them and tell them why it's unsafe. If they scream and moan then obviously they can't handle being in a social setting and need to be sent home.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Arrakis » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:39 am

Go to Kade and get leather lamellar made. That's the real "scale mail" of history.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Tordek » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:38 pm

The point isn't trying to get the stuff passed, its to have a more clearly defined set of rules so someone doesn't go and blow 200+ on a suit of scale only to have it turned down at an event, because as it is read in the rules, it seems like scale can be passed just fine, and newer members wont think "hey, those points might be unsafe" they willl think "OMG that armur so L33t, I must HAS!"

even bearing in mind the fact that 20 gauge stacked twice will be heavy, someone will probably still want to do it. Its better to go into a situation assuming the other person has no idea what you are talking about until proven otherwise. Thus noobs might not understand that this armor is unsafe until you point it out, because they thought it was kosher by the letter of the law, but didn't think about the intent of the law.

simple fix is to define metal scale as rigid metal armor in the BOW, thats all im lobbying for.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Cade » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:57 pm

Arrakis wrote:Go to Kade and get leather lamellar made. That's the real "scale mail" of history.


And I support this message.

I would be more than happy to provide completely legal safe lamellar armor to any new guy who wants to look bad *. Not only does it look better than fantasy scale, its lighter, cheaper, and more flexible. I seriously have worn more restrictive winter coats.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Orokusan » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:00 pm

Hardiron wrote:The point isn't trying to get the stuff passed, its to have a more clearly defined set of rules so someone doesn't go and blow 200+ on a suit of scale only to have it turned down at an event, because as it is read in the rules, it seems like scale can be passed just fine, and newer members wont think "hey, those points might be unsafe" they willl think "OMG that armur so L33t, I must HAS!"


Or we just figure before they drop the 200+ they are smart enough to ask here. The job of the Bel community is not to police peoples stupid financial decisions regarding equipment. Buy at your own risk if you fail to ask. Simple as that.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Brutus » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:25 pm

Orokusan wrote:Or we just figure before they drop the 200+ they are smart enough to ask here. The job of the Bel community is not to police peoples stupid financial decisions regarding equipment. Buy at your own risk if you fail to ask. Simple as that.


There are a host of reasons why someone might not ask here. Just off the top of my head, I could imagine someone getting a hard copy of the rules and not even being aware that there is a web board for this sport.

The fact that these resources exist to help people who have questions is not an excuse for poorly-worded, vague, and broadly interpretable rules. Do you think having crappy rules makes Belegarth more, or less legitimate to someone who wants to join? Do you think a prospective Quality Individual who encounters said crappy rule is going to be more, or less likely to join?

Just fix the rules. It's your job, WC. It is not an imposition, it is your duty; it's what you signed up for.

Note to FB: Just because the rules seem clear as day to you, a veteran of decades (centuries? eons?), does not mean that they are clear to someone who is starting a realm with only the BoW to go on that they found in a stack of printouts by the register at some gaming store in West Kuala Lumpur.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Caleidah » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:53 pm

Ok. So we alter the wording for metal armor to state that ALL metal armor must conform to penny round.

3.1.8. Penny Round - Armor checking standard where the edge of rigid metal Armor is compared to that of a penny:

To

3.1.8. Penny Round - Armor checking standard where the edge of all metal Armor is compared to that of a penny:
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Tordek » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:11 am

Caleidah wrote:Ok. So we alter the wording for metal armor to state that ALL metal armor must conform to penny round.

3.1.8. Penny Round - Armor checking standard where the edge of rigid metal Armor is compared to that of a penny:

To

3.1.8. Penny Round - Armor checking standard where the edge of all metal Armor is compared to that of a penny:



I believe that will work fine, any chain that will be legal in this sport will pass the penny round rule, and really any metal armor should conform to that rule anyway for safety's reasons.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Forkbeard » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:20 pm

If you buy very expensive equipment for a sport you know nothing about without talking to some of the other players(at practice, at an event, here, on facebook), you are a stupid person.
Also, you are asking to have the rules changed because of one product avalaible from an online dealer that is illegal. You want the rule to change to keep said illegal material illegal.
No one has ever bought these scales and assembled them for Belegarth and then found out they do not pass. That's alot of work and not cheap.
I do not think they ever will. If they do, I firmly believe they WILL ask someone first. If they don't **** em.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Cheeseheart » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:53 pm

Is there actually legitimate opposition to making the requirements for metal armor SAFER? It's a preemptive measure against misinterpretation and asswipes trying to find loopholes...what's wrong with doing that?

And what the **** is a nonrigid metal armor?
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Tordek » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:20 pm

Forkbeard wrote:If you buy very expensive equipment for a sport you know nothing about without talking to some of the other players(at practice, at an event, here, on facebook), you are a stupid person.
Also, you are asking to have the rules changed because of one product avalaible from an online dealer that is illegal. You want the rule to change to keep said illegal material illegal.
No one has ever bought these scales and assembled them for Belegarth and then found out they do not pass. That's alot of work and not cheap.
I do not think they ever will. If they do, I firmly believe they WILL ask someone first. If they don't **** em.
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No Forkbeard, that is not the reason im pushing for this. Im pushing for this because I dont want someone to follow the path that I took to trying to get metal scale on the field. A bronze suit of scale in my opinion would look amazing, however I understand after coming here that it cannot be done safely.

Im pushing for this because it will calrify the rules on metal armor, making it safer, less subject to "hey, you were an idiot, your brought THAT to a national event and tried to get it passed." And come on, even you can see that the armor rules are vague and poorly written. Surely we could make one simple redefinition. Cheeseheart saw the exact point I am lobbying for, why are you opposed to it?
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Cheeseheart » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:04 am

I believe by changing the wording of the rules to reflect some of the above posts would actually make the armor he bought unquestionably illegal...so there's no intent on cheesing or forgoing any of our rules, it's simply an effort to make them more clear.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Forkbeard » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:46 am

Hey, I'm not the armor police. Just becasue I oppose changing the rules does not mean they won't get changed. Lobby your own **** WC rep, not me.
I feel the armor rules are clear enough. I also feel that every time we change something some new asshat has another thing like this.
Again, this is one style of armor(that is not real) based off materials only available at one source on the internet. This scale material is NOT COMMON in any way. I feel that it will not even be available for very much longer. I simply do not feel that we need to change the rules base on a one-off product.
Alost, I feel that the penny round rule has always applied to any metal armor with any exposed edges. Non rigid metal armor is scales. OF COURSE SCALES CAN NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO CUT PEOPLE OR WEAPONS, *. Why in the **** would scales that CAN CUT PEOPLE OR WEAPONS be allowed? Anyone with any common sense can see that you CAN NOT USE METAL PARTS THAT CAN CUT PEOPLE in a full contact game.
At the event I run, If the guy who lives around here who actually has shoulders made from these scales(and there is one, he's an sca guy and doesn't use this **** for fighting eaither, it's merely a decoration in his camp)showed up, I would not hesitate to tell him he can't use it. If he argued with me, I'd throw him off the field. If he got * and wouldn't come back to bel, I wouldn't give a ****. We don't need people WHO ARGUE WITH HERALDS.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Cheeseheart » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:11 am

Forkbeard wrote: We don't need people WHO ARGUE WITH HERALDS.
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Re: Scale Armor

Postby Tordek » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:40 pm

I didn't actually buy any of it, i came here first. And FB, I'll bring it up with my WC rep, I agree we dont need people arguing with heralds, but the rules of the sport should be clearly outlined so they dont have some ground to stand on if they try to argue back. I believe that this will just be a preventative measure for further down the line.
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