First questions...

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First questions...

Postby Isk » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:23 pm

Getting a realm started and we have put posters up all over town. Last week we had several new people show, especially we had a bunch of goblins under 13. I want to make sure people know what age we're targeting, do you guys think we should put an age limit right on the posters? Should we even allow 13-16 to play?

Should I tell them to go to the website to get waivers? What other stuff should be on the poster? I really want to keep it simple and yet prepare them.

The other question everybody is asking is, "What does it cost?" I mocked up a poster with this info on it, your feedback and experiences would be appreciated.
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Last edited by Isk on Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Mekoot Rowan » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:07 pm

My realm uses the national age standard, but don't let that stop you from recruiting anyone who wants to play.

You might try what we do and let the younger ones fight each other, but keep them off of the field.

Having a supply of waivers at every practice would be a good thing. That way you can show them what you're all about and then hand them a waiver to get signed and notarized.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Cib » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:59 pm

Poster:
Keep your posters simple. A web site is good, and should have all the info needed. A poster should have enough info to make them want to know more. No more, no less.

Age:
We sate on our site that out min age is 15, but we let younger people on the field if we think they can take it and they are accompanied by another player or some watching.

Chose an number and stick to it. If you allow to your on the field, you will soon be over run with kids, older people will be hesitant to join (a problem we had a year ago).



What does it cost? is a good question! Bangor suggests putting : "Free loaner weapons on first visit." on your promo material (they are always free, but hey!).
I'll tell you the same thing that I tell the Amt group. "Free loaner weapons on first visit." Mundanes assume that things cost money, and they'll think they are getting over on the first visit. When they fall in love with hitting people with sticks, they'll be much happier to know it's all absolutely free. You need that worm, though.

Also, someone bite the * bullet and take phone calls. Put someone's phone number on there, and expect 2-3 calls weekly at best.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Isk » Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:04 am

I really like the free loaner weapons idea and would love to put my phone up, but it's a company phone and they would NOT like seeing it on posters around town.
I agree the posters should be clean and simple. I think including the age on the poster should help interest the right people. I don't like the absolute minimum age 13 because it puts the focus on '13'. Now I am thinking of something like:

Free Loaner Weapons on First Visit
Participants Must be at least 16 to Compete Nationally
http://sites.google.com/site/antirdearg/
Last edited by Isk on Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Nigel » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:36 pm

I like that, "16 to compete nationally." My biggest problem with being 15, and the 14 and 13 before that was things I was excluded from for being "immature" or "fragile." Now, I understand national events - from what I've seen on the forums, they're rather dangerous affairs. That doesn't mean, however, that you won't run into the 13-15 year old that's more mature than some of those 17 year olds you have.

If you were to ask me, I'd say that you let the 13-14 year old crowd fight each other, get tutors over there, and prepare them for the big leagues of Belegarth. Once they hit 15, they're Freshman, getting bigger and stronger, and are a year away from being able to compete in the national events. I'd say include them in the practices for national events, to get them ready for what they'll face the next year.

There were some great posters somewhere in this Recruitment Ideas board that you may consider using. You want something that doesn't look too busy or overdone, however, people will often overlook a white piece of paper with a picture centered on the top. You want something professional to catch their attention, and, like a previous poster said, not put too much information there. I know I'd have gone for that sort of thing.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Nikodem » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:43 pm

The problem with adults and minors participating in the same physical activity should be clearly obvious, and that's what happens when the adult injures a minor. Waivers aren't ironclad, especially in certain parts of the country.
It's not always just a matter of maturity, and it's one of those things you're more aware of when you're no longer a minor.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Nigel » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:49 pm

Yeah, when you're a minor, you're more concerned with being left-out. ^^ While I know 15 year olds that are quite sturdy and can hold their own with many an adult, I would have problems with smaller 13 year olds (no offense, guys, but I've seen the middle schools run out on the track).

Back on topic - if you've got enough goblins, just have them fight each other, and get one of the older members to teach them Belegarth, and you should be fine. It's us 15 year olds being abused by you old farts I don't know how to solve. ;)
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Re: First questions...

Postby Solusar » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:38 am

No matter what age you pick, make sure they have signed, notarized waivers!
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Re: First questions...

Postby Isk » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:29 pm

This week was a huge success with no one under 13 playing, but the great majority were between ages 15-17 (about 25 people present :D ). So, a couple months into this, we are starting to get numbers and I think we will retain quite a few of them. Look for a speaking realm app in the not to distant future. How is that done anyway?

I haven't pushed waivers, although I have them ready. Please fill me in here on what has/can happen, especially with the reference to adults sparring with minors. I am missing the lawsuit related details behind 'clearly obvious'. I am not opposed to waivers, I just haven't required them yet and a few stories to enlighten others always helps to encourage compliance.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Eris » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:06 pm

If someone gets hurt on the field (e.g. broken nose/collarbone/finger/etc., torn tendon/ligament/etc., or whatever else they manage to break while they're there) and they have not signed a waiver, then they can go to a lawyer and sue you and whoever inflicted the damage for all medical expenses, pain & suffering, and whatever else they can figure to lump in there. With a waiver, there's an obstacle in the way of the lawsuit (depending on where you live it may just be a stumbling block...).

Please consult a legal professional in your area to determine the correct form the waiver should take, and what kinds of liability you would be looking at if someone got hurt while participating at your practice. Laws vary from state to state, check with a local attorney (if you live in IL, I can prolly hook you up with a good one).
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Re: First questions...

Postby The Great Gigsby » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:13 pm

^^^

What Eris said x100

iskatyel wrote:I haven't pushed waivers, although I have them ready. Please fill me in here on what has/can happen, especially with the reference to adults sparring with minors. I am missing the lawsuit related details behind 'clearly obvious'. I am not opposed to waivers, I just haven't required them yet and a few stories to enlighten others always helps to encourage compliance.
Start doing this now, as in today. Make sure everyone fighting has a properly signed waiver. If they're an adult, hand them a pen and a waiver and don't let them fight until it's signed. If they're still a minor, really push the importance of getting the waiver signed before they are allowed to fight, but give them a week to get it signed by their parents (unless they seem really accident prone :axed: ). If they show up next week without a signed waiver, tough ****. Hand them another one and tell them to go home, get it signed, bring it back, and fight.If their parents have questions, they can come out and see for themselves what's going on.

Always bring a binder with you that has everyone's signed waiver, at least fifty blank ones, and several pens. Once you get a signed waiver, stick it in with the rest, and then they can go fight.

Here's my break down, along with some anecdotal advice I've gotten from a few lawyer friends. Note: this is in Washington.

The thing about any generic sports waiver is (and I can't comment on yours specifically), it's not very good at preventing liability charges. What it is good at, is scaring away people that think that there's not a real risk for injury (there is) and tricking stupid and kind people into thinking that they are powerless to sue in the event that someone breaks their nose or kicks them in the teeth. The more legalese and fine print you can cram into your waiver, the more legit it looks.

Yeah, most of us are friends or at least tolerant of one another, but if you really think that signing a single flimsy waiver is going to absolve the guilty party of any liability in the event of a serious injury, you're dreaming.

TL;DR - Waivers are mostly smoke and mirrors, but the more smoke and more mirrors you have, the better your illusion will be.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Eris » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:22 pm

Oh! I almost forgot! Young'uns need their waivers signed by their parent(s) then the parental sig must be notarized. If you are over the age of 18 (I think...) you can become a notary public for like $50. Look into it. That way if kids want to fight, all you have to do is have their parent show up, sign in front of you and you can notarize it! No hassle of having to send them to a bank.

And card their parents. Not only do you get bonus points for looking more responsible, but you are making sure they really are who they say they are!
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Re: First questions...

Postby Isk » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:15 am

Not expecting everyone to do all my homework for me, here is an interesting link which basically corroborates what has been said about smoke and mirrors, but underscores that they are still worthwhile, all in the context of public school sports activities. One interesting point is that BOTH parents need to sign a minor's waiver or the other parent has not agreed to anything. Anyone require both parent's sigs?
Also, I didn't find any other school sports group, college club, climbing gym, ymca or whatever that required notarized forms. Are we the only ones who do this and is it really worth the hassle? I guess it's more smoke and mirrors, gives that additional sense of legitimacy, but it's sure gonna be a pain.

I remade my waivers and made them into web pdf forms, bringing in elements from the other waivers I found while searching the web. The new adult waiver is here.
Last edited by Isk on Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Cib » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:55 am

I currently don't require form to be notarized, I see them as a way to make sure people know what they are getting in to.

PaintBall around here doesn't require notarization, and I don't think even a parent sig... might be wrong. Next time I go pant-balling I snagging an extra to look at.

I am thinking I am going to add a witness line to my waivers though, maybe to, one under, the kids sig, and one under parents.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Theros the Large » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:30 pm

Having the waivers natarized is not for more protection in a legal sense.

Making them get the notary is to make sure that the parent signature is ACTAULLY the parents signature. The notary should not be making any document offical if they have not confirmed the identity of the signers. It is so we know that the parents have read the waiver and know what could happen.

The Wolfpack waiver is pretty good as far as coverage. It was written up by a lawyer who is in the realm and is quite concise and specific.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Isk » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:16 pm

So only the minors must get them notarized, right? I can probably live with that. Does anyone require both parents to sign? The link I posted cited at least one case where the parent who hadn't signed sued the school and won. Again, are we the only ones requiring notarized forms? I haven't seen this anywhere else.

I would love to use one written up by a real lawyer. I just picked my favorite bits out of several waivers I found online from private and public sports groups and combined them with the waiver in the NRSK. The link to the wolfpack waiver seems to be down. Is it the same as the one in the NRSK and if not, how do I get a copy?
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Re: First questions...

Postby Jay HellHammer » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:52 pm

iskatyel wrote:So only the minors must get them notarized, right? I can probably live with that. Does anyone require both parents to sign? The link I posted cited at least one case where the parent who hadn't signed sued the school and won. Again, are we the only ones requiring notarized forms? I haven't seen this anywhere else.

I would love to use one written up by a real lawyer. I just picked my favorite bits out of several waivers I found online from private and public sports groups and combined them with the waiver in the NRSK. The link to the wolfpack waiver seems to be down. Is it the same as the one in the NRSK and if not, how do I get a copy?


Then go hire one. Depending on where you live it will probably relatively cheap and be specific for your state. Check your local county/city bar association. Well worth it to be specific. Some lawyers will give you a free consultation and quote you a fee. You picking and choosing may have eliminated something super important in your state.

Waivers are to point out the obvious. That guy hit me I'm mad I will sue. No, here's a waiver. Gross Negligence can never be waived.

Notary=the person signing is the person named. Some states do require a bond but a company called notary express, gets you the bond, stamp and certificate. You then register in the county you live in. Again notary express the way to go. It's way easier than doing it yourself.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Isk » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:08 am

Notary Express is not available in Utah :( I will check out my options here.

What about the other Utah realms, Ered Duath, I Anga Emyn, Aquilonia? What do you guys use for waivers for practice and events?

PS I did give out waivers tonight and got things started, but I will have them redo it once I have the 'right' waiver.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Eris » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:19 am

Iskatyel, talk to a lawyer in your area to verify the waiver is complete and follows all applicable rules for your State and county (yes, the rules on some things can vary by county). Some of the smaller Law offices will probably be able to make you one for $50-$100 (that's cheap. don't complain.).

Become a Notary Public in Utah: http://notary.utah.gov/

(Note: Wow... It's a real pain to become a Notary in UT!!!! :eyes: )

Using a waiver another group in your state uses does not guarantee that it follows all of the rules and laws in your State. After all, they may have just done what you did and created Frankenwaiver.

Get a lawyer. Seriously.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Isk » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:42 am

Thanks guys, made a couple calls and am checking out the lawyer route now. And once it's done, anyone else will, of course, be welcome to use the new waiver.

Reading the cautions for notaries it looks like there could be an issue with me notarizing the forms:
2. A notary public shall not notarize a document to which he or she is a signer or
to which he or she is named in the document.
3. A notary public shall not notarize documents or transactions to which the
notary has a disqualifying interest; ie; beneficial, financial or other interest in
the transaction. If you have a disqualifying interest, someone else must
provide the notarial service.

4. A notary public may notarize documents when acting in a professional
capacity such as a professional advisor, counselor, agent or attorney.
5. A notary public shall not execute a notarial certificate containing statements
the notary knows to be false or has the intent to deceive or defraud.
6. A notary public must remain an impartial witness to any transaction.

I have found a couple local banks that will notarize them for free, so I think I may have to go that route instead.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Isk » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:45 pm

A lawyer who does a lot of work for my company was willing to look over the form. He recommended a couple of changes and said it should do well for normal activities. If they try to claim negligence there will be a fight and no additional amount of release form will help with that. Thus, this form has been reviewed by a Utah attorney whose business is contract law, but not rewritten by one so it should hold up well in court, but may still not be as concise as it could be. The minor release and adult release are here as PDFs, the open office files are minor here and adult here.

I have been thinking that where negligence is concerned our primary problem would be weapons checking. We do weapons check every week and I have been thinking that if a log was kept of the weapon having been checked, it would strengthen a defense against a negligence suit. Anybody else do anything like that?
Last edited by Isk on Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Cyapar » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:17 pm

Good luck with all the legal mumbo jumbo, and good luck with your new realm. I really can't say anything as I am not a lawyer, lol.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Eris » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:26 am

Having a policy of checking EVERY weapon before it goes on the field should be good enough. If you feel like that extra added security layer, tie strips of fabric or something on each weapon if it passes, and collect the strips at the end of each practice.

Glad you got the waiver looked over by a lawyer!
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Re: First questions...

Postby Nikodem » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:01 pm

try checking the post office for a notary
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Re: First questions...

Postby Poo » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:04 pm

Nigel wrote:I like that....... .........that sort of thing.


Completely, utterly, without remorse, off topic. But that was a beautifully written post, and by a 15 year old no less (no offense, its just that most younger kids that come on these boards can't find the period key). Thank you for being alive.
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Re: First questions...

Postby Theros the Large » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:08 pm

It sounds like your on the right track as far as keeping your * covered in a legal sense.

Waivers aren't perfect, but having something on file that states that this is a contact sport and that things can happen is never a bad thing.

Good luck with your recriutment. Getting speaking rights is fairly easy. You will need to come out to some events and get to know some people from other (voting) realms. Once you have shown that your group is serious about doing Belegarth and are here to stay your friends in the other realms will bring you up for speaking rights. All of the voting realms should approve as long as your sponsered by a voting realm. I don't think a speaking realm has been declined to date.

Once you have been a speaking realm for a while you can be nominated for voting rights.
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