HACS BoW?

[Tren]

So I stumbled on to the original HACS thread which is kind of defunct, and I was wondering if there's an official site or rulebook available yet for HACS?

[Elebrim]

There was a website at one point; the link should be in the old thread. However, I don't know if they have ever taken the time to update it beyond the placeholder.

Has anyone ever heard about new HACS-sponsored events coming up? I haven't heard much news lately.

[Sir Cairbre]

I heard Wolfpack didn't want them at SW.

[V-Hil]

I'll be posting information about a major HACS tourney right after Spring War. Their will be strict rules for team uniforms and should be some Class 4 combat (headshot combat) as well! Website is currently being worked on, but you can check out www.hacsinternational.com and see what's up so far.


Stay tuned!

[Skorr]

I heard Wolfpack didn't want them at SW.

Just to clear it up, its nothing personal, but it was agreed in our best interest not to allow profit-motivated tourneys during our non-profit event.

[Cyric]

I heard Wolfpack didn't want them at SW.

Just to clear it up, its nothing personal, but it was agreed in our best interest not to allow profit-motivated tourneys during our non-profit event.

But profit motivated merchants are allowed?

[Skorr]

I heard Wolfpack didn't want them at SW.

Just to clear it up, its nothing personal, but it was agreed in our best interest not to allow profit-motivated tourneys during our non-profit event.

But profit motivated merchants are allowed?

Yes.

[Kegg]

Just to clear it up, its nothing personal, but it was agreed in our best interest not to allow profit-motivated tourneys during our non-profit event.

To start off, Spring War is Wolfpack' event, they can make whatever decision they want and I would be cool with it.

Now on to the dissection of the above statement.

Our best interests

Wolfpack's? Belegarth? The individual organizers?

The reason I ask is that HACS is going to HEAVILY promote all events and organizations where HACS tournaments are held, including by print, internet and television. That this promotion is going to be made available to all organizations that allow HACS to sponsor and run tournaments at their events. I honestly believe in the future that this will be a huge attendance growth avenue for Belegarth.

Edhellen for years has sponsored Spring War in a manner, by donating weapons for prizes for the gladitorial ring and by use of our equipment. Edhellen is sponsoring Spring War this year by
1.) Providing gil at a significant discount for prizes.
2.) Donating weapons for prizes.
3.) Loaning Wolfpack the use of Edhellen equipment (cookers, trailers, etc.)

Edhellen is a for profit company that happily helps sponsor and promote Belegarth events. Are you saying this is somehow not welcome or somehow injurious?

profit-motivated tourneys

Actually, any tournaments would have been free with thousands of dollars of prizes. Yes, the concept of taking Belegarth style sword fighting mainstream, has a for profit motive, these particular tournaments would not have been profit making.

If Edhellen hosted a blue sword tournament, in the morning before fighting, for free, by our tent, would Wolfpack's officers be upset?

We had the opportunity for Gatorade and Mountain Dew representatives to be at Spring War for possible future sponsoring of events (both HACS and Belegarth). We had to turn them down due to the "vibe" that HACS tournaments were not in "our best interest". This perhaps cost Belegarth the opportunity to actually have the ability to afford real advertising and marketing to draw people to events. Is it Wolfpack's position that sponsorship to hold better events is somehow a bad thing.

Trust me. I go to big events like Spring War for the large field fighting (not the tournaments). HACS wasn't looking to interfere with fighting from 12 pm to 5 pm on Saturday, but to work around that (Saturday 9am to noon).

[ICARUS]

So was md and gatorade primarily looking for bel or hacs? (I know they were looking to help both but primarily which one?)

[Kegg]

The sponsorship is primarily for HACS, but it would carry over to any event/group that has a relationship with HACS. The goal is to come up with a cross sport (Amtgard/Belegarth/Darkon/SCA/NERO/etc.) tournament system that can be taken to the mainstream market.

[moondog]

middle finger in the air to the haters!!!i just don't get why anyone would not want this kind of promotion at there events


HHHHAAATTEEEERRRRRRRZZZZZZZZZZZ
GO TO SLEEP

[Magpie Saegar]

I respect the goals that HACS has set, but I'd like to suggest that Belegarth should be the main attraction to a Belegarth event. It's enough for me. I've found that throwing money at people doesn't usually increase the sense of community and good-natured fun that _I_ prefer.

I think there's still some bad blood from when HACS was introduced... my first impression (from the boards and from Ocfest) is that it was hiijacking our organization. I know this has been relatively resolved, but first impressions don't go away quickly...

...I seem to remember HACS draining fighters from the main field.... I mean, if we're going to travel that far for a Belegarth event, I think there should be Belegarth fighting for all daylight hours. If there IS HACS, it should either be at night by spotlight or sometime on friday when it doesn't detract from the majority of belegrim's time. Keep in mind, this IS a belegarth event. Belegarth gets the main feature time.

I don't want it to detract from my fight time. If I only get to be there for one day, I don't want other groups snatching up bits of my time for fun. If they did, I'd have to consider not even making the trip. Sorry. Geddon would be completely different, but there's just not enough time during a weekend event.

---------------------

the difference I see between Edhellen's support and HACS's support is that Edhellen gives a lot to the group without taking time away from Belegarth-oriented combat (or main-field fight time). HAC's, as I see it, gives less to the group (though substantially more to a limited number of individuals), and detracts from almost everyone's (except those limited winners') weekend fighting experience.

Obviously this can be argued. Just my honest opinion.

[moondog]

did you hear him say 9am-noon, most people are still scratching there balls or eating swine

[Cyric]

Feast prep, knighting, barrels, and other unit issues as well as regular belegarth tournaments take away from fighters on the field as well. should we ban these things during fighting? i think that giving people another style of fighting is a good idea, if they want to try and win some money. I don't think HACS detracts from fighting any more than anything i previously mentioned. HACS at least makes an attempt to run these things in the evening while there is still light and in the morning during weapons check.

[moondog]

i say again LET THE RIVERS OF HACS FLOOD THIS STAGNENT POOL WITH THE GLORY OF ITS HEAD SHOT LEGAL CATAGORY 4 FIGHTING

[xiao]

More options for more people

UNLEASH THE FURY!!!!!!

[Vokor]

We will have two high quality light towers at Beltaine and EQ the are like the ones you would see at as highschool football game. we can from HACS under them all night

[Kensman Bam]

I have a question, what if we had HACS tournaments as entertainment for feast? If you have feast gear, food it pretty portable, right? Why not have it outside, barring inclement weather, and watch the HACS tournaments then, and under the lights as Vokor suggeted.

[Elwrath]

i have to agree with cyric on this one...i've traveled halfway across the country to arm and fought on a field with less fighters then i do at my local practice for hours and even days worth of the event cause of knighting, barreling, etc. I was also kinda excited about HACs at SW but w/e. I'm supposing that the post SW tourney will take place on sunday morning or some such? If so i'm already going to be in Utah again probably. On the other hand its wolfpack's event and props to them for running it consistently and well year to year (having run events myself i know how it can go). So if that's wolfpack's decision then it should be respected (even if there is plenty of time in the morning before fighting starts to get all of the HACS tournies done like rude' pointed out. I hate waiting for fighting in the morning )

[The Great Gigsby]

I'd like to suggest that Belegarth should be the main attraction to a Belegarth event. It's enough for me.

Go right on ahead, but what Belegarth is to you is not what it is to everyone attending. I don't believe there's anything magical about Belehir, SCERO, or Darkgard; I go to these events so that I can dress/act like a clown, party, and beat people with sticks.

I think there's still some bad blood from when HACS was introduced... my first impression (from the boards and from Ocfest) is that it was hiijacking our organization.

I think this is chiefly the failure of our organization. If a relatively new system becomes immediately popular as we can all probably agree HACS has, then it must be offering something that Belegarth can't. Things like, better standard of garb, better equipment, better rules (matter of opinion), better referees, and an incentive to excel. If that became the norm in Belegarth, there's no doubt that more people would be excited about fighting at Bel events.

the difference I see between Edhellen's support and HACS's support is that Edhellen gives a lot to the group without taking time away from Belegarth-oriented combat (or main-field fight time). HAC's, as I see it, gives less to the group (though substantially more to a limited number of individuals), and detracts from almost everyone's (except those limited winners') weekend fighting experience.

If HACS detracts from your weekend fighting experience, that's your problem. Being cranked in the head over and over again by a 12oz. flail detracts from my experience, Boohoo. Doesn't happen in HACS! Makes me happy. People that participate in HACS largely believe that it is a positive thing or they wouldn't support it. If you checked the reaction it got at an Amtgard's Spring War you would know that HACS can be a positive force for all medieval combat groups.

Some people want to dress in medieval style garb and hit each other with sticks, some people want Belegarth (whatever that is). Seems like apples to apples to me.

[Magpie Saegar]

I was just voicing my opinion as an answer to this intelligent and thoughtful perspective:

middle finger in the air to the haters!!!i just don't get why anyone would not want this kind of promotion at there events

I'm perfectly aware that I'm in the minority on this one... it seems people think it better that I just shut up, I guess. Bye.

[Georghiu Leonte]

I definitely have questions about HACs...especially if I attend a Bele event and HACS is present. Is my money going to Belegarth (A non-profit..or at least an organization that isn't looking for profit) or is it going to HACS? If I go to an event to compete for Bele (which allows you to have fun and not directly support groups like Edhellen) I do not want my money to go in the pocket of Edhellen or whoever profits from HACS..maybe I am a 'hater' but I personally like a clear idea where my hard earned money is going to. As far as I can see HACS is a great idea that will go nowhere..because as of yet..I have seen zero progress, and HACS is a money driven organization (from what I understand of the business model)..with no money..they are not going to function.

(And if HACS is for profit..and someone is directly profiting from them (IE Edhellen isn't it self destructive for Bele to be giving them free publicity..? I know it is within event runners rights to do so..but it seems very foolish))

I think people need to look at the whole HACS/Edhellen issue with a bit more business savy (I lump them together because last I heard to fight in HACS you NEEDED Edhellen weapons.) It seems to me that this could all be about the profit of a few individuals. It may not be. But when I see A LOT of people extremely excited about something I would rather be starkly on the other side of it. Am I interested in HACS? Yes definitely. Do I see a few people making money off HACS. Yes I do. Do I not know the people? Yes and that is what worries me. HACS could have a good year and fail..what of all the money other people invested in it? IE buying HACS weapons from Edhellen? Will they get refunded?

I see a fair amount of people not being skeptical enough, that puts BELE in danger. Not just of HACS stealing members..or 'taking' members or whatever. Consider this. If someone gets hurt fighting HACS at a Bele event is he going to see a difference between the two organizations? If HACS suddenly fails after he invested a decent amount of money on weapons? (Edhellen might be quality but they are not cheap for the average person) To me, laying in bed with a new organization that could make a decent amount of money blindly is an extremely bad idea. Consider all the possibilities before you support HACS at a Bele event.

And yes I suppose I am a 'Hater' now.

[Vokor]

I understand your haste, but if you come to beltaine the money goes to Dud-D to run EQ and if you come to EQ the money goes to run Beltaine. that is all. we do NOT pay HACS to come to the events. as for the sword that you would use as of now (V-Hill or Kegg please corrrect me if I am wrong) you do not need a Edhelen sword to play Hacs, when in the turneys the have different rules so your sword may not pass but it may.

Also before you lump two groups with each other know your facts Edhelen and hacs are not the same, there are people from edhelen that did invest time and money in to hacs but they are two different companys.

Hacs will help grow the sport not take away from it. they will advertise the event that they will be at. In time they may have there own events, but I think that is a ways off. I do not think you a hater, and it is good to question what you do not know. but as you said you do not know any of the people that are tring to get this started. talk to them at events email them ask them questions. they do not have amaster plan to take people away from Belegarth, the plan I have heard time and time agian is they want to bring as many fighting groups together to fight with a common rule set, taken from each game like amp, dag, bel, darkon.

in any event hope to see you at SW and beltaine.

[Kegg]

I definitely have questions about HACs...especially if I attend a Bele event and HACS is present. Is my money going to Belegarth (A non-profit..or at least an organization that isn't looking for profit) or is it going to HACS? If I go to an event to compete for Bele (which allows you to have fun and not directly support groups like Edhellen) I do not want my money to go in the pocket of Edhellen or whoever profits from HACS..maybe I am a 'hater' but I personally like a clear idea where my hard earned money is going to. As far as I can see HACS is a great idea that will go nowhere..because as of yet..I have seen zero progress, and HACS is a money driven organization (from what I understand of the business model)..with no money..they are not going to function.

No money from a Belegarth event will ever go to HACS. It will be the other way around, HACS offers all groups sponsorship (cash, equipment) and advertising for the event. As far as skepticism on the viability, all I can suggest is to wait and see.

(And if HACS is for profit..and someone is directly profiting from them (IE Edhellen isn't it self destructive for Bele to be giving them free publicity..? I know it is within event runners rights to do so..but it seems very foolish))

Actually my hope is that HACS gives Belegarth tons of free publicity. HACS is intending to run tournaments at 100s of avenues a year that currently have no sword fighting (game conventions, martial arts conventions, Renaissance fairs, etc). At each of these events HACS will proudly encourage people to attend groups (i.e. Belegarth, Amtgard, Darkon) that are cooperating with HACS. I think as far as publicity goes, it should be a big win for all foam fighting groups.

And yes. HACS is a for profit endeavor. A significant amount of money is being invested to make sword fighting mainstream (think paintball).

I think people need to look at the whole HACS/Edhellen issue with a bit more business savy (I lump them together because last I heard to fight in HACS you NEEDED Edhellen weapons.) It seems to me that this could all be about the profit of a few individuals.

For tournament play (national rankings), you must use a HACS certified equipment. Other companies are designing and beginning to manufacture HACS certified equipment. There are procedures in place to get a armoury?s weapons certified. For the indefinite future, HACS will have certified weapons freely available at tournaments if you do not have your own.

It may not be. But when I see A LOT of people extremely excited about something I would rather be starkly on the other side of it. Am I interested in HACS? Yes definitely. Do I see a few people making money off HACS. Yes I do. Do I not know the people? Yes and that is what worries me. HACS could have a good year and fail..what of all the money other people invested in it? IE buying HACS weapons from Edhellen? Will they get refunded?

If HACS has a good year, it will not likely fail. If HACS has a bad year, it might fail. If 28$ for a HACS certified weapon is too much and you fear that things might fail, I suggest that you wait and see before purchasing one and just use the equipment that is provided by the tournament organizers.

I see a fair amount of people not being skeptical enough, that puts BELE in danger. Not just of HACS stealing members..or 'taking' members or whatever. Consider this. If someone gets hurt fighting HACS at a Bele event is he going to see a difference between the two organizations?

HACS has both spectator and participant insurance. If someone is hurt at a HACS tournament insurance will cover it. Unfortunately, Belegarth carries neither currently though hopefully we are on the way to fixing that.

If HACS suddenly fails after he invested a decent amount of money on weapons? (Edhellen might be quality but they are not cheap for the average person) To me, laying in bed with a new organization that could make a decent amount of money blindly is an extremely bad idea. Consider all the possibilities before you support HACS at a Bele event.

Why, if that organization is committed to sponsoring and advertising the Belegarth and its events? Why if that organization is committed to taking Belegarth style sword fighting to a much wider audience? Why if it promotes cross sport cooperation (Belegarth, Amtgard, Darkon, etc.).

The potential downside is that HACS becomes widely popular. That HACS bring so many people to the sport (foam fighting) and these people just like the rules, professionally run events, and trained marshals. At that point there may be a push to make Belegarth more like HACS. I think this possibility is a long way off.

And yes I suppose I am a 'Hater' now.

I would prefer the term skeptic. Are you going to be at Spring War? If so stop by, so we can meet and person.

[Georghiu Leonte]

Right now I am unsure what events this year I will be attending simply because I am a college student so it is hard to project my finances that far.

BTW thanks for the mature responses, I am glad to see some of my information was out of date (like the fact Edhellen was the exclusive manufacturer of certified weapons). I wish all the best to HACS and Bele..I just do not want to see them as bed fellows if it is not good for both organizations.

[Skorr]

I think mostly the issue was with assuming to show up and run uninvited tourneys at our event without asking that put people off. Also that tourneys had been run during normal fighting hours when we had been told they wouldn't be.

As for trials, I know that most Hellhammer barrels are normally run before normal fighting hours or after fighting significantly dwindles. The same is true with a lot of knights trials and most other units as well. Running HACS in the morning seems like it could detract from units and knights having that time.

I have little control over this event and am not the one to appeal to. Since I feel the need to defend myself though, I guess I'll share what I have to say. Personally, my opinion of HACS is fairly neutral. I don't hate it. I fought in the HACS tourney and had fun. Most people did, and I see that it is a huge opportunity to bring our hobby into the mainstream. But I am ever weary of selling out, and when large, morally ambiguous corporations step into the mix it sounds like our sport might become a marketable commodity and be run by money. I really don't know how I feel about that. I want to say maybe its for the best, but look what happened to MTV, or the whole of mainstream music for that matter. Look at Hollywood, education, or medicine, the media, or anything once pure that now bows to corporate masters and forgoes its original intentions to make more money.

That's not necessarily what is going to happen, I understand, but the weariness seems very necessary to people who get put off by these kinds of things. When big money invites itself to the party it isn't going to be well received. In regards to Armageddon, I suggest that you ask for permission in advance and try to coordinate with event officials. I wouldn't mind seeing HACS at events, but I think the way it went down at Oktoberfest really bothered some people and it might be best to rethink the approach.

[Vokor]

Big money, come on it has take 20 plus years for paint ball to srat to get a little and I mean very little money behind it. I do not think that the people that are starting hacs are look to swindle or be shady in any way. They BRING MONEY to GIVE AWAY. i understand that some do not want to lose the cozy feel of events, thaty is up to us to control.

Who would like to see 1000 vs 1000 at a event some time I would love it. they way that happens is be exposing the sport to more people. hacs can do that. could they make money for doing so yes could they lose there * yes. some may think that edhelen is like microsoft and kegg is bill gates watch over waiting take over. please step in to the real world. I have seen him give **** a way so he would not have to carry it back to there shop. sorry for the rant but come on...

I hear people say they want huge field battles, but keep it on a village level. if thousand start comming to event and i could make a living doing my hobby guess what I will sell out cuse I hate my 9-5.

we could dbl as a sport if every one got one other person to come and if hacs can help then use that tool.

rant over

[Georghiu Leonte]

Look I do not know Keg or Edhellen personally, so anything I say I mean no offense. I do not trust easily and when something I love is talking about getting into bed with something else I think caution is important. I do not want to offend anyone with my lack of trust but if I do, well tough. Trusting in a business environment is a bad idea.

I would like to see HACs be successful, I would love to fight in HACS, however I just want Belegarth to be successful as well. I know many share that sentiment.

So if I do not know you personally, and am not willing to have you baby/gay love child..do not take it personally because I probably do not trust you 100%. Sorry.

[Vokor]

Georghiu,

may rant was not directed at you, it was just a vent. but in truth if you do not start to trust business then your are cutting you nose to spite you face. our whole union is based in business. it is true that you shoud get to know any one you plan to do business with, but to slam some thing little or no information is just as bad as to support it with out any information.

Now you said that the two are getting in bed together, they are not the same thing, there are working for the same goal, to grow foam fighting.


also if you meet me you will want to have my baby/gay love child.. I am * sexy!! JK look forward to meet you at some events soon

[bo1]

um Vokor, i think paint ball has lots of money, i am currently checking but i have so far found its a billion dollar industry, when feild, guns and paint are considred. Take a look at DYE, Brass eagle, Shocktech, Evil, Crossfire, there is like 50 major companies involved, plus 1000s of fields.

money corupts, it is real simple. I have seen it in Family, Freinds and Strangers first hand.

I don't think that Vhil would pour 5 years of his life into a sport and then decide to try to destroy it with Hacs, that i know for sure. It is not his nature. i am not sure of the rest of Hacs team as i don't know them very well.

Therefor i am catiously optimistic for Hacs, I participaited at Gencon INDY, and at Octfest'06. It is an attempt to bring alot of people from different sports for the ultimate question, who is the baddest badass???
usually this turns into a sluff fest contest, but with the marshall ing system it should stay clean. ( crosses fingers)

[Georghiu Leonte]

I think he was using paintball as a industry a few years ago..in the last ten years it has gotten pretty big (some tourny's you can win new cars). Another good example would be MMA. Until Zuffa bought the UFC a few years back fighters made no money. (look at the under card in a UFC fight, some make as little as two thousand dollars)

My concerns aren't about HACS now (Except the possibility if HACS fails it would look bad for Bele being associated with it ((however loosely)) but only time will tell about that) and what happens if HACS is successful and it does become a big sport. I too worry about corruption but for me it is impersonal because I do not know anyone involved closely enough. I just know when you are staring a business bank account in the face, it is easy for someone to get greedy and think someone won't notice a few K, or other similar concerns.

Again I guess I am just reiterating my points. Sorry. I am definitely willing to get HACS the benefit of the doubt. Just because I love this sport, I think anyone would love this sport if they got out on the field, and everyone I see mocking us as they drive by practices are just thinking its lame because they THINK they can compete, but in truth they would be greatly humbled, as I have been.

[Hunter S.]

Any exposure is good exposure as far as I'm concerned. HACS sounds like a great idea. If you ask me, there will always be a niche for Belegarth.

[Cyric]

The way i see it, HACS is for all those people who always said stuff like "i wish i could get paid to fight." I'm sure everyone knows someone who's thought or said that. It's not going to replace Belegarth, that's for sure. it's just another sport, like Amptguard or SCA.

[Beoren]

As long as their tourneys are scheduled in such a way as not to detract substantially from the normal goings on at an event, I don't see much of an issue. If people come to the events for HACS, and HACS only takes a small portion of the day, the rest of the day, they will be seeing, and possibly participating in, OUR combat. This will boost our numbers, and we may just get some people to be more interested in Bele than they are in HACS. As I said, if it can be done with minor disruption, I'm all for it.