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 Post subject: Atgard questions
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:16 pm 
Barbarian
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I have had experience in the SCA, and now in Belegarth, but Amtgard seems somewhat foreign to me.

I went through some pictures of some fighting from the chapter closest to me and it looks like they are speed fighting with large cotton swabs.

Is there any heavy combat in Amtgard?

Just curious.

RB

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:13 pm 
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Your best bet would be to ask Kyrian. I think he was in amtgard for quite a while.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 pm 
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Short answer: no there's no heavy combat in Amtgard.

Longer answer:
Amtgard does light touch fighting, but like Belegarth, that is open to interpretation of the local group. Some seem to swing as hard as some Belegarth Realms, while others are just tap fighting. They don't allow shield bashing or grappling. "Drum rolling" is an established technique for getting through several layers of armor (in full class battles they may be allowed up to 7 points of armor).

Since they are light touch, at a competitive level, there's no advantage to swinging hard. As a result, their weapons padding standards are lower. Pool noodle and carbon kite spar are standard building materials. Optimizing weapons for speed means only padding where absolutely necessary (hence the Qtips you saw). I've heard of weapons as light as 4 ounces. I fought with heavy Belegarth legal weapons and did fine, but that would never work at a national competition.

They have classes, magic, etc. but a lot of people seem to avoid this and just do "ditching," straight team battles with no special abilities. Depending on where you're coming from and which area you go to, an Amtgard park could be very similar to Belegarth or vastly different.

Note:
I did Amtgard for a few months. I never went to a national event, so my understanding is based on my experiences with my local shire, and some people who came to visit from farther away, as well as what I've seen on their message boards and Youtube.

I enjoyed my time in Amtgard and would still be fighting with both groups, but scheduling and distance make that difficult for now. If you're curious I would give it a try, and see if you like it. It's good practice for working on your speed.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:10 pm 
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Outis hit it on the head in saying that they are built for speed and tapping. A few years ago, an Amtgard unit visiting from Texas took up residence in Charleston and fought at several of our practices during the summer they stayed. This group fought primarily with modified quarterstaves, bent at the middle and fitted with large handguards (functionally used as invincible shields during combat). They were very fast fighters as a result, but hit like nothing and were completely unequipped for offensive sheild work like checks, bashes, or hedging. If that is representative of their style of combat as a whole, then there really is no heavy combat in Amtgard.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:03 pm 
Hero
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Yep, Outis pretty much nailed it. The nature of Amtgard depends greatly on the dynamics of the group and who you're playing with.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:11 pm 
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i went and sparred with a group in NC, they were speed tapping with funnoodles and whined if you hit too hard.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:53 am 
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We love our Lopty out here...

Depending on the group, you can actually improve your game when fighting with Amtgardians. We as a group tend to use more power, they tend to be more focused on speed.

Trust me, if you can beat Loptr even on a 50% basis, you're better than a lot of our rank-and-file fighters.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:09 am 
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Your best bet would be to ask Kyrian. I think he was in amtgard for quite a while.


My background: I participated in Amtgard for about two years when I was stationed at Ft. Bliss, TX near El Paso, where the Kingdom of the Burning Lands is located. I met my wife, Sorcia, through Amtgard. At an event, we were fighting together on a castle wall with her using a polearm while I had my shield pressed up against the wall protecting her from our opponents. We started talking and the rest is history…

These were some of the things that I was able to bring from Amtgard:

1) Introduction to new construction methods. All hail the mighty kite spar! 8) That's changed lately since we implemented the weight limits but, at the time, it was a way for making light, quick weapons. The curved round shield that I have was also inspired by an Amtgard design.

2) Improving reflexes. Combat can literally take place at the speed of thought. If you can develop the muscle memory to block shots in Amtgard, that can be helpful in Belegarth.

3) Fighting against flails. An Amtgard-legal flail can have up to 18 inches of ball and chain. Many of the flails I saw had a ball of about 3 inches in diameter and 15(!) inches of chain. Learning how to fight against these makes you look at Belegarth flails a little differently.

4) Similarity in combat systems. Ditch battles (battles without the classes, levels, and magic) are very similar to our melees. I still remember the first time I fought at Amtgard. Once I remembered not to bash or grapple 8), I found the rest of the combat system to be virtually identical. I think the only things I recall being different was that stabs to extremities counted towards the two-limb rule and that shields can’t be broken.

5) Knighthood as a means to recognize all forms of achievement. Amtgard has four different orders of knighthood: Knight of the Sword—for martial prowess, Knight of the flame—for service to the Kingdom, Knight of the Serpent—for excellence in the arts and sciences, and Knight of the Crown—for serving in Kingdom-level offices. I like this system because it recognizes all forms of excellence, not just on the battlefield or in service. This is very similar to how knighthood is today. I don’t think there’s been a knighthood given for something done in battle for quite a while. However, several people have been conferred knighthood for their contributions in their field of endeavor such as Sir Anthony Hopkins and Sir Elton John.

6) Emphasis on the arts and sciences. As I mentioned before you can be knighted for excelling in the arts and sciences. If you wish to run for a Kingdom office such as monarch, you must enter Crown Qualifications. You must have entries in at least seven different arts and sciences categories and each of these entries is judged. You must achieve a passing score in at least four (I think) different categories. Some of the categories include: cooking, vintners, feast garb, fighting garb, armor, weapon construction, shields, garb accessories such as belts, belt favors, bardic, poetry, fictional writing, factual writing, 3-D art, flat art, active construction—something that actually moves such as a catapult, passive construction—like a chair, and sculpture. All candidates must also pass a heralds (known as reeves in Amtgard) test. If you haven't seen them before, Amtgard has a very comprehensive set of rules.

7) Inspiration. In Wolfpack, we tried out the game of jugging adapted from the Amtgard rules. I also used this as the basis for Blood Bowl. People in Amtgard have developed classes and monsters that mirror many of those in Dungeons and Dragons. Who’s to say that we can’t use some of these ideas in developing scenarios for Belegarth?

Amtgard really helped me see what we do in a different light and probably had the biggest impact on my perspective of knighthood. Much of what I'd seen in Amtgard provided inspiration for my squire requirements.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:09 pm 
Barbarian
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Thanks for the insightful reply.

RB

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:50 am 
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Wow, Kyrian. Thank you for being one of the few people in Bel that explain Amtgard without focusing on its flaws. Its refreshing to hear people with open minds.

Pretty much everything he stated was correct. As a 7 year Amtgardian/5 year SCAdian/part-time Belegrim, I love the different flavors afforded by ALL the systems I partcipate in. Each one, though, also has its flaws. Neither Amt, Bel, or SCA is a perfect system, but by fighting in all of them I can open my awareness and get from those systems what I want perfectly.

I love Amtgard for its face paced, non-stop, all night long fighting. I also love it for its award system, government system, and the fact that since it has rules for pretty much everything, battles can be fought with as little to as many rule as the people running it wish. I also love AMtgard for the high skill level of its higher echelon fighters.

I hate Amtgard for its sometimes petty politics, "Entitlement" attitudes, bloated egos, lack of garb standards, horrible skill of its lower level fighters, and the want for people to hit lighter so as not to sting other players (though, a lot of players I play with hit hard and rock shields all the time; rubbing is racing, you could say).

I love the SCA for its pagentry, GINORMOUS battles, hard hitting fighting style, shield bashing, revelry, and chivalry among most its populace.

I hate the SCA for its pompousness, arrogance, rhino-hiders, the guys that hit to hard because they have small penises, people with stupid looking armor, and dorky wannabes who think the are period because they talk with an awful accent and wear a freakin bunny fur loincloth. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT'S HOLY, PUT ON SOME FREAKING CLOTHES!

I love Belegarth for its ability to be moderately hard and still be fast paced, ability to shiled bash, ability to grapple, harder shots given and taken, and heavier weapon standards. Oh, and Winfang. He's alright I guess.

I hate Belegarth for its ultra-light-all-foam punch shields (weapon weights but no shield weights? *?), guys who believe garb means women's clothing, insular attitudes, homebrew rules in every park, archers calling their own shots (cheaters! lol), lighter than air rocks (weapon weights again!), no blocking arrows with weapons, and guys that think that no shot on them is good unless your sword has a train whistle sound on its way in. Clean shots are good shots too man, just take the * shots; your ego isn't in that big of jeopardy.

Wow. This should have been its own thread lol! Anyways, sorry to rant. Like I said, no system is perfect, just get over the flaws and hit people with sticks and try to learn something new.

Really what it's all about.

-Ramius
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 Post subject: Heavy Combat in Amt
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:54 am 
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Amtgard combat is the most intense combat I've played out of the various boffer games, and many times it has come close to matching some of the better SCA battles I've been in. The perfect number is no more than 20 per side company battles if your looking for bone jarring intense. Anything larger is too chaotic and not really "intense" except for the mass chaos that goes on due largely to the amount of fodder on the field. But is it "HEAVY"? Not really. It's fast, it's very fluid and its a boffer game of shot placement and technique when played by skilled players. Any other time, its dorky boffer crap like every other boffer games lower end players. If your looking for fun scenario games akin to scenario paintball, or want to do a LOtR battle, Amtgard delivers. If you want high end fighting on a tourney or competition level, it delivers if your on a good team. If you want to pretend your in the SCA but not commit to rattan and real armor... Not even close you're better off with Bel or Dag.

Heres how I see it.

Amtgard is about technique and speed. I have been knocked unconcsious during a jugging match but it's not Heavy in the SCA sense. There are lots and lots of fodder running around watering down the talent pool. You cannot trade skill for intensity here. Either your on top, or you suck. There is very little middle ground. High end fighters will blow doors off in a transfer to SCA. Everyone else will be lost in the sauce. The good part is at National events it's all about the talent. The flurbs simply don't compete. Sucks if your a flurb, but if your not, it's a massive amount of fun and will really test your ability. You don't have to wander through the fodder too much at events like Banner Wars or Spring War. The talent pools seperate themselves pretty well and keep the fights balanced and rarely mix so theres not a lot of newb slaying going on.

Belegarth and Dagorhir. I really can't see any difference in fighting style or intensity between these too and given their history I guess that makes sense. Both are like low key SCA battles with lots and lots and lots of fodder running around watering down the talent pool. Big guy smash is worth a lot here. You can trade skill for intensity and do ok but it's really like baby SCA. In the book "the knights next door" the author keys in on the fact that in his area of the Midrealm, Dagorhir is where they grow baby SCAdians. Good place to start to polish your intensity and prep for skill a'la SCA. The skill level differences in Bel and Dag are the most obvoius as they don't seem to have a problem mixing in the battles.

SCA sets the bar because it's a lot harder to get onto the field than with the other games. As a result you have less newb fighters and the like milling around getting in the way. At local events it can sure suck, but at the national events, holy cow... If your looking for HEAVY there is no substitute. Full blast from word go. Intensity will get you a spot in the shield wall... and dead in a tourney. Nothing compares to a SCA war. Nothing.

Ray Ray and the others have painted a pretty good picture of Amtgard in their posts and so I won't touch those other than to say I totally agree. I'm a Knight in Amtgard, a Squire in SCA, and joe nobody who visits occassionally in Bel/Dag so I've got a pretty good base of experience for each. All are fun and each are in truth cults of personality where ego's reign. It's totally a Lord of the Dorks situation no matter what game you go to.

Will


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:46 pm 
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i am an amtgarder who is interested in joining bel
the words about Loptr are true he is a great fighter
and a greater friend.

im in twin falls idaho please p.m. me about bel in the magic valley
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:34 pm 
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Hello this is Leo, using Cal's sign in at the moment. I just HAD to reply.

I for one see many things positve about Amtgard, being a three belted knight myself (Sword, Flame, Serpent), the combat yeah is fast but that's it to me. Extrememly fast and sorry to say the technigues are geared more for that end.

SCA, nothing better for teaching one the PROPER technigues for cleaving thru yon scoundrel. I was Once a Squire in SCA, under Syr Tacred dello Falco from Atlantia. I WAS Lord Squire Leonard du Chien there. negative side well no more than four people on a person, planes of engagement. Transfers from AMT to SCA don't fair AS well, only because the technigues are different i.e. wrist taps versus "broadsword" technigues.

The reason I play Belegarth now, one the combat is a bit more "real" the grappling ect, that I could not get out of either of the other orginizations. to me the combat is more "real". Get part of the same rush as it being real life. yeah been there done that.

It's all about PREFERENCE. Don't let ANYONE badmouth one over the other. Transfers from one system to another USUALLY suck for a bit, and you do get some bleedovers, people that do both, but swear the one they are doing at the moment ISN'T the best one. Funny how that is.

Last point. if you don't like a system,pack your stuff and go the frak home.

Syr Disciple KoS, KoS, and KoF Amtgard Kingdom of Goldenvale
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simply
Leo

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:21 pm 
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Yeah . . . I fight at the local Amtgard park on Sundays. I hate the battle games, I hate the politics (want politics worse than Belegarth/Dagorhir's? Check out Amtgard . . . ), but I love sparring and ditching with them, it helps me be so much faster when I come back to Belegarth, which is what I really care about.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:21 am 
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Seriously......
Well everyone has summed it up well I think.

Amt is NOT heavy. But the combat is FAST! Texas Amtgard started out with PVC, couch foam and duct tape. It has evolved to funnoodle and a golf shaft. The Texans hit f'in hard for th emost part. Other groups can be much more tappy tappy.

Amt combat is about speed and point control. it is amazing how much I have learned by getting my * handed to me by the likes of Wisp and many others.

I lov Bel for the ability to kick and bash!

When I went to my first few Bel events and I was the "amtgard" guy. I loved the look of surprise after some single blue sparring.

I dislike Amt gor the politics and the magic.
I dislike Bel for the toilet bowl of death and rediculous under age drinking.

Will I keep going to both? You bet yer *.

Loptr
Viking *

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:30 am 
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The toliet bowl of death is because in Belegarth everyone wants to be flankers and no one wants to take a defensive stance, excluding Numenor. If Belegarth could develop some tactics then maybe it would be different. The teams change too much and we have too many "unit" battles where it's like 6-10 teams fighting a free-for-all. God I hate those battles.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:56 am 
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ive found many scenarios avoid the toilet bowl, but the big pickups are toilet bowls...

Ill agree the team FFA is pretty bleh.

on the tactics front, it starts at a unit level, the more units out there using tactics the more other units will have to grow and adapt the less toilets and australian toilets we will see.

all the touch larps are great for building your offensive and defensive speeds, and you can go monster(read: fighting only) for free at many of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Atgard questions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:46 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Atgard questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:40 am 
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Aegis wrote:
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:56 am


squiretrelick wrote:
Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:46 am

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:36 am 
Monkey
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Aegis wrote:
all the touch larps are great for building your offensive and defensive speeds, and you can go monster(read: fighting only) for free at many of them.


As an old Amtgarder and a new Belegrim, that has not been my experience. Touch LARPs can be very speedy but since they are LARPs not fighting groups, the skill levels are often so low that you dont learn any speed becasue you just dont need it. Even the best players in touch LARPs fight a hour or two a week at most. Compared to Amtgarders or Belegrim who often fight two and three times a week for 3+ hours each, its no contest.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:53 am 
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Michael wrote:
Aegis wrote:
all the touch larps are great for building your offensive and defensive speeds, and you can go monster(read: fighting only) for free at many of them.


As an old Amtgarder and a new Belegrim, that has not been my experience. Touch LARPs can be very speedy but since they are LARPs not fighting groups, the skill levels are often so low that you dont learn any speed becasue you just dont need it. Even the best players in touch LARPs fight a hour or two a week at most. Compared to Amtgarders or Belegrim who often fight two and three times a week for 3+ hours each, its no contest.


Thread is over two years old, MHoG.


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 Post subject: Re: Atgard questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:10 pm 
Monkey
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Oops. I totally blame the others before me for resurecting it.

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 Post subject: Re: Atgard questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:03 pm 
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it generally is a rule, the original res'er is to blame. btu micheal you should know better, wait so should i, * i fail.

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 Post subject: Re: Atgard questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:15 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Atgard questions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:24 pm 
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Being an amtgarder up in Northern Canada I have to say many of us don't hit lightly, infact the harder the better. We do speed fight but make sure non of our shots are what we call "granny shots".


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 Post subject: Re: Atgard questions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:58 pm 
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