SCA Advice?

[Arrakis]

Hey, all you Bel/SCA crossover fighters. I'm hoping to join your illustrious, bruised ranks in the near future. Since the Barony I'm nearest (Barony Beyond the Mountain in the Eastern Kingdom) has really... lackluster websites with no forums and no real communication tools beyond the email addresses of the officers of each Canton, I'm asking here:

What should I know/do/acquire before I show up to my first practice? What should I wear? Any other miscellaneous advice for a Bel/SCA crossover or a new SCAdian in general?

Thanks, guys.

[Winfang]

I've noticed a lot of SCA groups communicate primarily through email list. There are a few forums out there but they're for specific interests.

The person you want to contact is the Knight's Marshal of the Canton and/or barony. They're in charge of fighting and typically can arrange for loaner gear to be brought to a meeting for you. Bring your Belegarth armor because you'll be surprised at what will be acceptable. If you have leather body armor for Belegarth, it can work for SCA too assuming it covers your kidneys and short ribs. You will need to have a cup and jock-strap and you can pick this up at your local Wal-mart and elbow/knee pads should be something you pickup too.

Most of the time they'll treat new fighters like they don't know anything and will work on the basic stuff like blocking and throwing simple shots. However if you inform them that you've done something similar and you just want to know enough to fight someone they probably just spend some time going over the basic rules and let you go. The main thing is be clear with what you want to do. Case-in-point, I showed up to Cleftlands (Cleveland) and told them that I knew how to fight but I still needed to authorize and they just gave me pointers and limited training. I brought Raccoon up a few weeks ago and he didn't say he knew how to fight so he was trained for a while by one of the dukes. It all depends on what you want.

Calibration in both your strikes and what you accept is one of the most difficult things to learn coming from Belegarth. A blow must hit with a certain power level that varies from group to group. For example Cleftlands is known to take and deliver a harder blow then most of the Middle Kingdom. I fought a knight from the southern part of the realm this past weekend he was taking blows which I wasn't convinced landed with enough power. The important thing about this was stopped fighting for a second and discussed it. After our brief chat we both came to a mutual understanding and continued to fight. It took me about 6 months before I got a good grasp of what a good shot was.

However, calibration is a two-way road. After fighting SCA I started taking a harder blow at Belegarth practices. While not all the blows people where landing on me good, I did start to ignore blows that should have been taken because I still in the SCA mindset. While this might have been okay at various Belegarth groups, it was not acceptable at my local group. I discovered it was just easier to take anything I felt regardless of sufficient force.

For me, SCA is a lot of fun. There are many different fields you can look at, the attitude is more in line with what I want, and it's very satisfying to hit someone in the head.

Winfang
Midrealm Unbelted Champion
Man-at-arms to Sir Rutger

[Kyrian]

For me, SCA is a lot of fun. There are many different fields you can look at, the attitude is more in line with what I want, and it's very satisfying to hit someone in the head.

And that was my biggest adjustment. I had to get used to receiving and actively throwing shots at the other person's head. My shield work also needed adjustment since I needed to focus more on covering my head than my lower body.

Be wary about throwing lower leg and knee shots. Many SCA fighters typically don't wear armor below the knee and you're not going to endear yourself to them by constantly hitting them in the calf, or worse yet, the ankle bone.

I'll echo what Winfang said, however. The SCA can be a lot of fun as long as you approach it with an open mind and as an opportunity to learn something different but related to Belegarth.

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Holy **** Winfang, I didn't know you were the Midrealm's Unbelted Champ. CONGRATS!

Our nearest practice is about 40 min away and unfortunately they are dill-weeds. I lucked out with contacting some folks on a SCA women's forum and got help through them. Try the email list first, usually they can get you going to the right place at the right time.

Any chance you will be making EQ, Arrakis? Maybe we can drag out the armor and hit sticks? I knwo of a few crossovers showing up.

[Arrakis]

* it all, I wish I could make EQ, Brenna, but with the state my family, my finances, and my location are in right now, it's just not gonna be possible. I'm already making plans for Beltaine, though, so there's always that.

Thanks for the advice, everyone! I tried emailing the Knight Marshall of the Canton, but got no response. Emailing the Chatelaine got an email within a few days and apparently she forwarded my email and her reply on to the Knight Marshall, as well, but I've still not heard from him. She did tell me where/when some of the practices are and I've picked one of the major ones that's within an hour and a half (yeah, I need to fight that bad) and I'm going to try to go out on Sunday (if I'm not busy flying home for a funeral).

I guess I'll just take a couple bottles of water, my kneepads, a cup, and maybe my Bel garb (so as not to get my mundane clothing dirty) and show up, see what happens. I'll almost certainly explain that I do Bel/Dag and that I'm just trying to find something else to do and see what sort of training/advice they want to give me.

Thanks again! More advice still welcome!

[tvetree]

Not sure how far, BFE or london Ky is from Louisville Ky but I've a sca kit and would love to dance with either of you.I'd even meet you at the Dun Abhon practice with enough notice that you are coming down.
Oh I'm a cross over,but the other way round SCA is my habbit of choice.

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

LOL, BFE is Glasgow, KY, so definitely within driving distance. I actually got an offer for help from on the ladies (Jesmond) from the Evansville group as well. Once the kit is complete, and we get some gas money that isn't devoted to work or merchanting (aka more work), we will definitely be up.

I'm Thorrinn's wife, BTW, if that helps at all.

[Arrakis]

Tvetree, when and where? I'm rarely home in London (which is an hour down 75 from Lexington) now that I'm in Storrs, CT for Grad School, but hey, good to know things.

[tvetree]

LOL, BFE is Glasgow, KY, so definitely within driving distance. I actually got an offer for help from on the ladies (Jesmond) from the Evansville group as well. Once the kit is complete, and we get some gas money that isn't devoted to work or merchanting (aka more work), we will definitely be up.

I'm Thorrinn's wife, BTW, if that helps at all.


I might know/remeber him.We have danced on a Bel practice field.And IM on yahoo.




Tvetree, when and where? I'm rarely home in London (which is an hour down 75 from Lexington) now that I'm in Storrs, CT for Grad School, but hey, good to know things.



Well Louisville has its practice on tuesdays and the 2nd&4th sunday of the month at UofL
Look here for info http://www.baronyoftheflame.org/


And here to reach people http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flamebridge/


I show up at the local Bel group every now and then,I could bring my Kit to that as well.

[tvetree]

And yes What Winfang says rings true and sound.

Not going into details bout shot location and armour reg
Major diff I see in style is in shot follow thru.

[Winfang]

I am only one of 45 other unbelted fighters that where where picked by the crown for the team this year. This will has been the second year I have been given the honor of being named to the team.

For me, I haven't had issues with throwing low in SCA. Because of my height (6'2") I have to really lean to hit shins in Belegarth. Don't lean in SCA, lean in Belegarth. Also I haven't had an issue with hitting people in the head. Can't really explain that one other then the fact I do both games frequently enough that keep these two things separate.

Since SCA encompasses so many things, I had an experience similar to you Arrakis when contacting the Shire down the street from me. I finally just showed up and told them to bring stuff the next week so we can fight. The problem was they weren't very interested in fighting every week like I was. It took me driving an hour to West Cleveland to find a barony that had people that where really into fighting. For a good SCA experience it really depends on who your local group is, just like Belegarth.

With Pennsic being over, I doubt there will be a big focus on melees out in the East Kingdom, instead the focus will probably be singles/tournament. This will be good for you if you want to learn because coming from Belegarth and trying SCA melee has got to be the most confusing thing ever.

[Arrakis]

Winfang, interestingly enough, it seems that the impression up here is that the South, having a longer outdoor practicing season, has better tournament fighters and the North, despite their shorter outdoor season, has better melee fighters. This seems a little odd to me, but hey, whatever; it all sounds like fun to me.

[Judas]

SCA melee has got to be the most confusing thing ever.

Please expand on this.

[tvetree]

SCA melee has got to be the most confusing thing ever.

Please expand on this.

Well if I had to guess,I think he means trying to learn the new set of rules and calling the differnt shots while at least 6-7 people are trying to kill you& a few hundred more may be just waiting for them to move.I had(have) this problem while I play bel.It's much easier to adapt to the rules while doing one on one.


Course in the SCA you need to authorize before you play in any of the bigger fights (around here anyway).

[Winfang]

In both Belegarth and Dagorhir I've been on fields with upwards of 500 combatants at a given time so I'm used to large-scale combat. Belegarth melee don't have a lot of rules dictating who can attack who and when. If I want to hit someone in the back, without them knowing I am there, I can. People make their Belegarth career on this. I can run into you, knock you down, continue to hit you, and then proceed on my merry way to my next target.

In SCA, I've had to get used to "Rules of Engagement" which has proved to be awkward to say the least. When am I engage and when I am not is very gray. To engage another fighter they must be aware of of presence as opponent. I've had the General, Earl Marshal, and a Duke give me what it means to gain engagement and each had their own spin to it. It wasn't cut and dry. Coming from a Belegarth background where I was extremely free in what I am allowed to do, I've found Engagement rules odd to say the least.

I know here in the Midrealm the fall/winter are generally referred to as Tourney season and spring/summer are melee season. Because the East and Mid have Pennsic, both kingdoms have practiced melees for a while now while other kingdoms don't have a huge such a huge war. That might explain things a bit.

[Arrakis]

Prossibly, indeed.

Squire Llewellyn explained to me that I had to be past another fighters 180 line to attack them, which includesleaning out into their periphery and then hitting them in the spine or just reaching around and grabbing their weapon basket, allowing another opponet to dispatch them from the front.

I get the feeling they fight a little... hard around here.

[Physic]

You bringing your kit to Octoberfest Winfang?

[Big King Jimmy]

Just out of curiosity, in Belegarth in line fighting typically what I've been told is to defend from the person in front of you but to fighting your 45s, the person to your front left and front right. Trying to catch that shot on the back of the arm or the top of the shoulder is big part of that, especially if they aren't paying attention to you.

I've heard that in Amtgard, large line fights tend to form up into a line of 1v1's, and that breaking from that causes some saltyness.

Are you still allowed in SCA to strike from just about anywhere in the front 180, or in a line if you attack your 45 is someone going to claim you weren't engaged?

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Finally made it to my first SCa practice today. I'm hooked.

Still need to tweak some of my armor and obtain a helm at Wine List. With any luck I can authorize by Crown List.

wOOt.

[To'Gur]

does anyone use leather for sca? if so, how does it do taking blows?

[Winfang]

That's the plan Physic. I think Casey might bring hers as well.

From what I hear, the further north you are in the country the harder you hit due to south being hotter and they wear less armor and the fridged north will wear heavy more protective armor.

That's why I say engagement is tricky. When two lines attack each other, you're engaged with entire line, so you attack someone on the oblique (commonly called the 45s). Now, if you get outside of YOUR weapon's range, you've broken engagement and you have gain engagement again. To gain engagement on another combatant, they simply must know I pose a threat. I can yell at them, look them in the eyes, tap them with my weapon, or tangle them up with my weapons, and once they do something to acknowledge my presence like throw a block, attack me, yell back at me, or guard against me I have now gain engagement with them and can attack them. Fouling a weapon by placing my weapon or shield over top another person weapon is perfectly acceptable with or without engagement. The gray area with the melee is what constitutes acknowledgment of me being an opponent to my enemy. Static battles, such as castle or bridge, don't run into this problem because of the close quarters, the problems come in during the field battles when skirmish groups break off the main line.

I've used leather to cover almost every part of my body at one point or another. With just a little padding it takes a blow very well.

[Physic]

Awesomeness. I will have 2 extra kits with me if anyone else would like to participate.

[Kyrian]

That's why I say engagement is tricky. When two lines attack each other, you're engaged with entire line, so you attack someone on the oblique (commonly called the 45s). Now, if you get outside of YOUR weapon's range, you've broken engagement and you have gain engagement again. To gain engagement on another combatant, they simply must know I pose a threat. I can yell at them, look them in the eyes, tap them with my weapon, or tangle them up with my weapons, and once they do something to acknowledge my presence like throw a block, attack me, yell back at me, or guard against me I have now gain engagement with them and can attack them. Fouling a weapon by placing my weapon or shield over top another person weapon is perfectly acceptable with or without engagement. The gray area with the melee is what constitutes acknowledgment of me being an opponent to my enemy. Static battles, such as castle or bridge, don't run into this problem because of the close quarters, the problems come in during the field battles when skirmish groups break off the main line.

This was something that I found confusing when I attended SCA rapier practices. If I was "engaged" with someone, i.e., he or she was aware of me and the person suddenly shifted so that I was outside their 180-degree field of view, then I could no longer attack that person. What had happened was that we were in a line and I was on the far left. The two opposing people suddenly shifted to my left and stepped in so that they were almost past me. I attacked the one closest to me, stabbing him in the side as he was passing. I was then told that it was an invalid attack as we were no longer engaged... The whole "death from behind" thing was also frustrating to me considering how in Belegarth you can attack from any angle.

[Arrakis]

That's probably the single most ignorant-seeming thing I've encountered so far. Why the hell can't I just **** somebody up in a melee? Surely to god even the most chivalrous of knight understood that **** gets hairy in a brawl.

[Jeggrim]

does anyone use leather for sca? if so, how does it do taking blows?

I just added a bit of blue foam to my bele leathers. Workin' alright so far. Shots hit super hard still, but I'm not going to break. I'm working on a new Bele/Sca set that I'll make out of some Sole/armor bend leather (the thickest, hardest leather you can buy) and splinting some critical areas (thighs, forearms, kidneys, and short ribs) with some 1/2" 14-16g steel. I think that will take more of the "sting" out of a super solid SCA shot, without making it unwearable in Bele. Hope that helps.

--Jegg

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

DAMMIT. I wish I was back north...we need more SCAdians out at EQ. You bastards.

I use almost 100% leather for my SCA gear. My helm obviously isn't leather. Otherwise, I will sometimes substitute a set of metal cop arms for my leather cops if my arms are bothering me. Yeah, stuff stings, but so do hits from the Southern Marches boys.

[To'Gur]

if i could afford to bring my sca armor to eq, i would love to fight with yall! unfortunatley i cant due to the plane.

thanks guys for the input

[Cedric]

I use hardened leather for alot of my armor. If you harden it properly, it feels almost like I am wearing my full metal kit. Even the really hard shots dont hurt. Jeg, I would advise you harden your armor up, it will still be ok for bel and will protect you very well in the SCA...I will try to bring some of my kit to Samhain if you want, but I am injured and can't fight.

[Jeggrim]

Thanks cedric. I forgot to mention the hardened part. Yes I harden my leather, that IS a must. And yeah, I'd love to see what you have at Sam Hain. Always looking for new/fresh ideas and whatnot. Sucks your injured tho....

Laters

--Jegg

[tvetree]

Finally made it to my first SCa practice today. I'm hooked.

Still need to tweak some of my armor and obtain a helm at Wine List. With any luck I can authorize by Crown List.

wOOt.

Sorry I missed it,Work has been getting the best of me.

[tvetree]

That's why I say engagement is tricky. When two lines attack each other, you're engaged with entire line, so you attack someone on the oblique (commonly called the 45s). Now, if you get outside of YOUR weapon's range, you've broken engagement and you have gain engagement again. To gain engagement on another combatant, they simply must know I pose a threat. I can yell at them, look them in the eyes, tap them with my weapon, or tangle them up with my weapons, and once they do something to acknowledge my presence like throw a block, attack me, yell back at me, or guard against me I have now gain engagement with them and can attack them. Fouling a weapon by placing my weapon or shield over top another person weapon is perfectly acceptable with or without engagement. The gray area with the melee is what constitutes acknowledgment of me being an opponent to my enemy. Static battles, such as castle or bridge, don't run into this problem because of the close quarters, the problems come in during the field battles when skirmish groups break off the main line.

This was something that I found confusing when I attended SCA rapier practices. If I was "engaged" with someone, i.e., he or she was aware of me and the person suddenly shifted so that I was outside their 180-degree field of view, then I could no longer attack that person. What had happened was that we were in a line and I was on the far left. The two opposing people suddenly shifted to my left and stepped in so that they were almost past me. I attacked the one closest to me, stabbing him in the side as he was passing. I was then told that it was an invalid attack as we were no longer engaged... The whole "death from behind" thing was also frustrating to me considering how in Belegarth you can attack from any angle.

From where I stand your shot was valid,as you do not break engegement by simply turning away..Note rapier rules may diff from the sca heavy.If you know a fighter is there you are ingaged,backstabing is not allowed, but if engaged and I step past you(or you me) I can strike you in the back as I move on.45 deg is common engagment for a legged fighter.
As for 45 in a line a if you are engaged with a line you are engaged with the whole line,if a fighter can hit you,he can hit you 45 or not(you don't need to see them ,they are part of the line)...up to the point in becames a backstab.You can't surrond a person and hit him in the back you can however foul his weapons.Yes it can get to be a bit much.

Some SCA groups allow death from behind.So check with the local groups when in doubt.(Winfang please correct me if it is Soceity wide on death from behind.)

[tvetree]

does anyone use leather for sca? if so, how does it do taking blows?

Trick ???
The min armour you have to wear leaves a lot of open spots.The leather on my lower arms(sca kit) was not harded and not thick enough to count as bel armour.My upper arms are bear.Yet I use it to keep sca shots from doing more damage than I care to take to work the next day.Mind you, I don't trust this armour for bigger battles.

[Arrakis]

I finally got to fight yesterday (in what was probably the worst-fitting armor ever seen on the field) and had a pretty fair amount of fun, even with horrifically restricting armor and a 3# sword/club.

Armor: Gorget that was tooooo small (almost choking), plain plastic barrel plates laced together for body armor, waist/chest circumference approx. 12 inches too big, leather and steel half legs with no paddin gunder the cops tied to teh bottom edge of the body armor with only one strap below that that would actually go around my leg, left arm vambrace with cop too big to buckle properly, right arm actually ok... glove with demi with almost no padding any-damn-where...

But still, fun!

Priority #1: Build my own body armor!
Priority #2: Gorget that fits.

[Forkbeard]

Here an interesting thing.
This weekend while cleaning up at the Castle we built at our local ran fair site, I found an SCA weapon in the bushes. They've been using the site, too.
Anyway, the weapon is about 4 feet long and has a 2 foot striking surface, a thrusting tip and a stabbing tip on the pommel.
The coolest part about it is that it weighs almost the exact same as my 4 foot red sword.
Those SCA dude are in trouble.
FB

[Arrakis]

Niiice. The * sword I picked up at the practice before last and did some pell work with was something like 5 pounds, but it was balanced so well with this bigass metal crosspiece and pommel, over a long handle, that it felt like nothing to work through the air. When I get some decent armor, I will likely branch out into * sword and two-sword.

[Forkbeard]

I'm noticing something in SCA weapons, and would like to know what you cats think.
The one handed weapons I see all seem to weigh more than our stuff. They are much closer to actual real weapon weight.
Here's the thing; The two handed weapons tend to be much more closly weighted to our unrealistic weapon weights for two handers.
I think this is because of the fact that when WE make two hander we tend to use a heavier core and more padding witch usually means more gule. When They(SCA make a two hander they don't use any additional materials other than a longer peice of the same core material. This creates an exponetial weight savings.
Thus, thier one handed weapons weigh more than ours, but their two handers weigh only a fration more than their one handers. Our two handers seem to doulbe3 in weight at least.
This SCA weapon I found seriously only weighs a couple ounces more than my Bel sword. Granted my bel sword weighs about 30 ounces, maybe a little more.
I plan to be a greatsword fighter in my SCA adventures, so I'm pretty exited about this.

[Arrakis]

If the SCA * sword you found weighs 2 pounds, then... dang. I was fighting with 54+ oz one-handers yesterday. And that's actually MORE than the historical weight of a 36" OAL sword in 80-some % of cases. Then again, if your new sword doesn't have much of a crossgaurd or pommel... I was fighting with basketed swords/clubs, I guess...

[Titan G]

maybe the wrong thread to put this but i talked with some bele that did SCA at this EQ and i dont really have alot of interest in their grand melees but i was really interested in their tourney system. can anyone point me to where i could get more info on that and also a sight so i could see if i can find an active grp near dur-d?

[Winfang]

Here is the Nashville SCA group. http://glaedenfeld.org/

[Titan G]

thanks winfang just shot them an e-mail and printed out their calender much appreciated

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Here's the Murfreesboro group as well. Not sure which you are closer too. Both are good groups, but I *think* the Murfeesboro group has a larger practice turnout, particularly on Tuesday nights.

If you plan to make it out one night, shoot me a PM. Thorrinn & I are trying to make it down to Tuesday practices twice a month. And we have a ton of extra gear.

[Forkbeard]

The weapon I found I would best descibe as a club. It has no crossguard at all. Just stick, tape and a very little pad on the ends.
I'll weigh it and my sword and put up the results.
I'd bet it doesn't weigh over 3 lbs.
I have an historicaly accurate 49" two hander from the hundred years war that weighs exactly 3 lbs. It is a beautiful sword and balances right at the forward end of the handle.
FB

[Winfang]

Forkbeard,
It sounds like an unpadded pole-arm.

[Arrakis]

I got my first SCA bruise on Sunday! Huzzah!

Note to self: Don't wear crappy loaner legs with ill-fitting cuisses and little functional strapping and then fight against Master Frodo when he's florentining. He will destroy your right thigh.

I'm having too much fun. I need to get on with building some gear!

Also, for anyone looking for a cheap helm, basket, or cops: http://ashcraftbaker.com/pricelist%20web.htm Cheapest starter helms I've found anywhere.

[Olos]

* arrakis, the prices on that site look pretty * good. With the combo deal thingy, I'd be able to get going with my own SCA kit for under 200 bucks. To be ideal, would have to spend a bit more, but hey, would be enough to get started. I'll definitely have to look into that in January when I (hopefully) don't have a class on the night that my local sca group fights.

[Arrakis]

Also, Olos, their baskets are nearly indestructible from what I've heard and for 10/piece for 3 or more, that's just something I couldn't pass up.

[Winfang]

They're not indestructible, but they certainly do last for while. I use a Ashcraft Baker basket on my sword.

[Olos]

Do you guys wear gauntlets under the basket, or use a seperate peice for just wrist protection, or nothing at all?

When I did sca for a few weeks, they had this one peice that only protected my wrist, and then I used a sword with a basket hilt.

I'm really starting to want to do sca again, heh.

[Arrakis]

I fight in a demi-gauntlet (covers your wrist, back of hand, and first joint of thumb) and a basket, right now.

[Winfang]

I wear a leather demi-gauntlet. They're pretty common within SCA.