Is there a tougher version of Belegarth?

[Kirethorn]

I'm a person who had never heard of SCA or Belegarth until I came across the Belgarth uruk-hai unit's site accidentally. I like everythijng about belegarth, except the weapons. I find them complex to make, expensive to order and so weak there is little point in either. Which brings me to my question: Is there already existing a sport similar to belegarth, with no spells or fantasy weapons in it that has tougher weapons? They can be as dangerous as you like, most fights over here consist of friends trying to knock each other's brains out with cricket bats, lengths of timber, golf clubs, etc.

[Ralimar]

Yes, but they're basically all backyard/parking lot groups where a bunch of idiots (no offense) try to beat each others' brains out with found objects like you mentioned.

After you make a few swords, they're really simple if you have the right supplies. Just a little time consuming.

If you're into getting hit golf clubs, you might try looking into BDSM postings in the personal ads section of craigslist.

[Aslaug]

...with no spells or fantasy weapons in it...

I don't recall Bel having spells...

[Arrakis]

Aslaug, I think he meant, "Similar to Belegarth in that it has no spells or other crap."

Also, Kirethorn, you can always start your own ruleset/sport if you like... But Belegarth is * near the hardest-core SAFE sport you'll find next to SCA (and right past the SCA you get the Empire of Medieval Pursuits). The hardcore spectrum reads something like:

NERO, The Realms, Quest, Other Tap-larps
.
.
.
Darkon, Amtgard (not sure exactly which of these is more hardcore. Depends on who's running the Amt, I'd say)
.
Dagorhir/Belegarth
.
SCA Heavy
.
EMP

Don't know anything about SCA Boffer and don't think SCA Fencing is comparable, so they're not on there.

Seriously, Bel weapons aren't that hard to make if you follow the written instructions on the wiki VERY VERY carefully and take great care in your construction (i.e., straight cuts, proper widths, thin layers of DAP, proper dry times, snug cover). And they don't break down particularly quickly, in my opinion; I've only ever re-bladed three weapons out of some 20+ I've built and fought with over the past year, and they were the ones that got used at literally every practice, hard. Also, those were some of my earliest builds.

If you ever make it to the US for a time, buy an Edhellen or contact me and I'll send you something for just the shipping price, just to give you an example to work from. Hell, if you're willing to shell out for postage to Australia (that's where you are, right?), I'll stick a passing sword in the mail next week.

[Big King Jimmy]

I don't think his problem is as much as the difficulty in construction as much as the fact that we pad our weapons at all, I don't think Belegarth will make him happy.

[Aslaug]

Aslaug, I think he meant, "Similar to Belegarth in that it has no spells or other crap."

My bad. Derp.


What's EMP, BTW?

[Ralimar]

What's EMP, BTW?

Empire of Medieval Pursuits, as mentioned in his post.

[Aslaug]

What's EMP, BTW?

Empire of Medieval Pursuits, as mentioned in his post.

****, I really need to stop skimming and read next time. Thanks

[Kyrian]

Here's a video of one of the Empire of Medieval Pursuits events:



BTW, for those of you who know him, that's Physic running into the fire circle in the first few seconds of the video.

Here's a thread where he talks about it:

http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=130&t=26166

[setsukeuchiha]

First rule of fight Club, don't talk about Fight Club.

[warwell]

You might also want to check out ARMA (such as http://www.thearma.org/Practice/FreePlay.htm). I can't find it now but I once saw that they made practice weapons using wood with a rubber edge.

[Winfang]

Try looking into escrima.

[Arrakis]

Winfang: LOL.

Escrima: Like Belegarth, but Tougher!

[Winfang]

The truly hardcore...escrima + crazy = Dog Brothers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz-iGAJhZ6c

My only regret is I have yet to go to one of their meetings/events.

[Ralimar]

The truly hardcore...escrima + crazy = Dog Brothers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz-iGAJhZ6c

My only regret is I have yet to go to one of their meetings/events.

My favorite part of that video is when the guy gets blasted in the kneecap, then tries to take a step and crumples to the ground because his knee realizes that it just got completely **** up.

[Arrakis]

Damnit, Winfang.

To Quote myself:

But Belegarth is * near the hardest-core SAFE sport you'll find next to SCA...

Emphasis added to "SAFE". There's hardcore and then there's **** that's almost 100% guaranteed to snag you a broken bone within the first few months.

[Big King Jimmy]

Have you seen some of this guys posts? That's kind of what he's looking for.

Arrows with the heads left on made 100% from newspaper, which his sister shot at his face.

[Theros the Large]

Then perhaps this fool should go somewhere other than here. I hope he has really good health coverage.

Have you ever seen the cast they have to put you in for a broken knee? Enjoy being in traction!

[Peregrine]

http://sigrud.home.mchsi.com/

[Titan G]

well peregrine that seems absolutely **** insane. and not like in the "haha" joke " that guys crazy, what'll he do next" insane but in the like "your honor i now present people's exhibit A, a blood stained helm and sword" insane. and kirethorn if your looking for something truly more violent just get involved in an actual full contact martial art man, less chance of getting killed

[Kirethorn]

I did Shorin-Ryu for four years but now the school has closed down and I don't have the time or the cash to get into a new martial art at the moment. As for health cover, this is Australia, no offense, but we have a better health system than you do (if you want to dispute it then PM me). Like I said before I have no idea what SCA is, and I still don't. Could someone explain it to me? As for the homicidal aspect, I don't like live blades, although points, like darts, are alright. I'll spare you my stories about darts though in case Thanatos reads this, he's heard it more than enough.

[Soo Ma Tai]

SCA, Society for Creative Anachronism, guys in armor hitting each other with rattan sticks.

[Arrakis]

Just type "SCA" or "SCA Crown" into or "SCA Tournament" into Youtube or Google Video.

[Ralimar]

If the "live steel combat society" doesn't use real arrows, then I think they're pussies.

[Winfang]

I do SCA as well as Belegarth.

SCA is recreation of knightly combat in a modern age. The system is similar to Belegarth, but they use rattan sword and require armor. There is a kingdom in your neck of the woods, Lochac, and even in your city http://www.sca.org.au/castellum/.

Also most of those live steel groups pull their blows. I think only the East Europeans / Russians are crazy enough to fight full speed. Even then I don't think they hit nearly as hard as SCA or some Belegarth groups.

[To'Gur]

the dog brothers stuff can be compared to sca fighters going at it, just without armor.

[Kirethorn]

SCA sounds like just my cup of tea. Thankyou to Winfang for supplying me with the info. I'll tell Thanatos about it.

[warwell]

Adrian Empire uses live steel (not arrows though)
http://www.adrianempire.org/

[Solusar]

I've read something about a group called ARMA. Wiki it and also HACA while you're at it.

[Arrakis]

Most of ARMA's stuff is at half speed or is very low-contact. Our sport is much gnarlier, at least until the later stages.

[Winfang]

ARMA's focus is on recreating period techniques through study of fighting manuals. They don't really like to incorporate attacks or maneuvers that "could have existed" because they're not documented. They also include grappling which was documented as well.

[Cib]

SCA is a bit more restrictive in some aspects is it not? You can hit in the head, but, no grappling, no shots below the knees, no back stabbing? I really don't know, I have never played, just what I have heard. Yes? No?

[Arrakis]

Yes, SCA combat isn't quite as full-contact as Bel, it just uses unpadded weapons, requires armor, and allows headshots.

See: The Empire of Medieval Pursuits to see what full-contact SCA Heavy looks like.

[Solusar]

ARMA's focus is on recreating period techniques through study of fighting manuals. They don't really like to incorporate attacks or maneuvers that "could have existed" because they're not documented. They also include grappling which was documented as well.

Like I said, I had limited reading of ARMA, so thanks for clearing that up.

Like everyone else said, do Empire of Medieval Pursuits.

[Kirethorn]

The armour restrictions on EMP seem a bit m uch and they still pad their weapons. I might just have to create my own battlefield equivalent of it where you can just wear a couple of shirts to lesson the impact but otherwise belegarth striking rules, rattan/wooden weapons, and unarmed combat allowed.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Then you want Dog Bros type combat. Be prepared for some very broken fingers and other bones, as well as many, many bruises. Basically I am saying if you fought me like that, I would break your hand out the gate and that would be the end of your day Have fun, try not to get hurt, and by all means, go for it.

[Arrakis]

I think that the EMP's armor restrictions are pretty minimal. And they BARELY pad their weapons.

If you wanna do unarmored EMP-style combat with rattan, go for it. But if you think you're going to do it at Belegarth-level striking speed/strength, I'm just gonna warn you: Either a) you don't understand how hard people hit in Belegarth or b) you need to have paramedics on hand and be ready to get your ribcage, fingers, knuckles, knees, elbows, and collarbones broken like a *. Cause it's gonna happen.

[Titan G]

i think you should shoot for something like unpadded belegarth with power tools, you know a single blue is a chain saw, nail guns(properly modified of course) for bows. that sort of thing cause im pretty sure thats equivalent to the danger level your describing

[debuenzo]

HA!

[Tor]

[quote="Kirethorn":*]The armour restrictions on EMP seem a bit m uch and they still pad their weapons. I might just have to create my own battlefield equivalent of it where you can just wear a couple of shirts to lesson the impact but otherwise belegarth striking rules, rattan/wooden weapons, and unarmed combat allowed.[/quote:*]

Now, I don't usually go this route outside of Gen Mayhem, but you're a dumbass.

[Black Cat]

The armour restrictions on EMP seem a bit m uch and they still pad their weapons. I might just have to create my own battlefield equivalent of it where you can just wear a couple of shirts to lesson the impact but otherwise belegarth striking rules, rattan/wooden weapons, and unarmed combat allowed.

What about bows and arrows? Are you going to have people shoot at you with metal or wooden blunt-tips on the ends of their arrows while you are beating the *, blood, and [insert other bodily fluid(s) here] out of each other (quite literally) with unpadded wooden sticks while wearing no armor whatsoever? Oh, wait. You cover the tips of your arrows with newspaper, of all things.

Not to mention how dangerous non-blue weapons such as Javelins, Red weapons, Glaives, and Spears will be.

[sarcasm]Why don't you allow punching weapons, entangling weapons, and traps while you are at it?[/sarcasm]

Hell, bubble-wrapped skis and tennis racket throwing axes are safer than what you are talking about doing.


Are you insane or is this just some kind of joke?

[Kirethorn]

I didn't mean to get this much attention. Basically this is where I am at so far:
The sport will be called CAC, Creative Armed Combat. Appearance wise it will look rather motley, sort of an improvised battlefield style martial arts comp. It is not based on medieval reenactment, instead it's on combat using medieval style weapons.

The creative part comes from the armour rules, which are basically anything goes, as long as they are not a danger to yourself or others (we will be referring to the book of war in this). Soccer shin pads, rugby helmets, cardboard, it's all allowed. But you must have a helmet of some kind that offers enough protection to prevent serious damage from accidental head strikes.

Belgarth striking rules with unarmed combat allowed, SCA wounding rules, using wooden/rattan weapons and shields that are judged safe (not going to break or splinter, shield edges padded), and are covered in tape to prevent splintering if it happens anyway.

People will be armouring themselves to the max out of nessecity, but you'll be paying for your armour in bruises instead of broken bones, as we'll only openly encourage pulled blows aganst lesser armoured opponents. No missile weapons allowed, no throwing weapons.

No payment involved, people provide themselves with everything, waivers will be a must. It'll start out as a group of friends, new members will be by invitation only. Sort of how SCA started out.

If anyone is interested in doing the same in the US, go ahead, you can even use the name.

[Arrakis]

So, you want to do Belegarth, only with pulled blows, crappy-looking armor, and unpadded weapons?

Pulled blows = LAAAAME. You simply cannot fight with proper intent if you have to pull your blows.

BTW: SCA wounding rules? You do know that it's the same wounds rules as Bel, only you can headshot people, right?

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Just go to Dog Brothers and get the rage out. They are good people. You will definitely get your bruising factor.

[debuenzo]

just make sure you have good health/ life insurance and an up-to-date will

and HAVE FUN!

[Cib]

I am confused... I don't think I get it, I m not trying to be cheeky, or being sarcastic, I honestly don't get it... You say you want something harder than Bel, than make your own game (which is just fine) where you pull shots? Something doesn't add up there.

I am thinking you don't really understand how hard we or how hard an SCA guy swings and how much power is on a well thrown shot. I will say from experience, I didn't realize how powerful a SCA shot was until I saw one in person. If they guy on the receiving end was not in armor, it would be all broken ribs first shot. End of game. How fun is that? The YouTube videos make it look silly and week in comparison.

[Big King Jimmy]

You could easily kill a person in one blow with an SCA legal weapon if they weren't wearing a helm.

[Fangesta]

maybe "accidental suicide" is his game. Or the need to kill someone else?

waivers or not YOU are still responsible!!!!

obviously he's only done some light slap fighting bel style...with armor I get bruises and want to cough blood from time to time and come back for more, is enough for me. I have no desire to become a future life supported vegetable. This is where this guy is headed and FAST!

I like the idea of chainsaws being blues...just up his alley.

[Winfang]

And I could kill a man with my bare hands in one hit too! Guys, the human body isn't as weak as you might think it is and SCA fighters are not the beast your making them out to be.

[Kirethorn]

I've been trying to avoid this, but now i'll answer specific questions and hope it dosn't evolve into a flamewar.
By SCA wounding rules i mean that you don't take every hit, only ones that hit with a certain amount of strength. And what I mean by pulled blows is doing it hard, but discouraging taking your sword in two hands and trying to break it on a person's kidney. All the speed, all the ferocity, but if a liitle kid sneaks up behind you wearing nothing resembling pauldrons, don't spin around and compound fracture his shoulder if a bruise will do the job.
Now to clarify, I like everything about EMP except the rope around the weapons. It's fierce, the weapons are hard, it's good. When I said the armouring rules are a bit much, I meant on the wallet. Their armour that i've seen dosn't just imitate medieval armour, it is medieval armour. And all that steel and padding is a bit beyond my resources. Hence CAC making use of everything that can be safely used to absorb the force of a blow. It isn't about wearing minimal armour, it's about using creativity to come up with your own.
Some people are concerned with my experience. I have never even owned a Belegarth weapon. All my drilling in the backyard is against an external door leaning on my fence. I've got the 6 strike targets (both shoulders, sides, and thighs) mapped out and i beat D's into each of those numbers using lengths of timber 1.5" sq x 2-7 ft long. So i know how hard it is possible to hit. Most of my actual combat experience outside shorin-ryu is using bokkens, broomsticks, 6ft long industrial stakes (used to prop up young trees), and other makeshift weapons such as large sticks, bamboo spears and uprooted shrubs trimmed down to form a mace (the head is the heavy ball of dirt stuck in the roots). This was without any armour at all, and the people i fought with were (and still are) at least twice as strong as I was.
I'm not trying to brag (I did my share of running and dodging as well), I have nothing but admiration for sports like belegarth, but it's not for me. What i am trying to imitate here is a cheaper version of EMP. And i'm being realistic, over a here a lot of people are put off by there being armour at all.