The real story...

HACS, SCA, Dag, Amtg, NERO, and other similar sports discussion.

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Re: The real story...

Postby Arrakis » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:08 am

Soo Ma Tai wrote:You know Dedric, I am sure Hitler...


Five pages before Godwin's Law was invoked! A new record for this subject?




I love to fight. Fighty fight fight.

I'd enjoy seeing a Foamfighting Conference type event with separate fields for Amtgard, Bel/Dag, NERO, and an SCA demo area/small field, possibly. Have (a rotating set of) two fields running at any given time and piles of loaner stuff for each sport available to encourage folks to try the different things...
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Re: The real story...

Postby Cib » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:52 am

Dag attending should not be the requirement for such an event happening, or other orgs would feel that they are "second class citizens", make it good enough that Dag feels it would be beneficial for them to attend, and if they don't their loss.

Not saying anyone said otherwise, just putting that out here. :)
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Re: The real story...

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:10 pm

If I were to do a multi-org event, I would advertise it too everyone and see who shows up. I would never set a requirement as to a particular group showing up for the event to happen. That's just asking for FAIL.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Forkbeard » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:21 pm

I'd be there.
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Re: The real story...

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:58 pm

If it weren't too far away, I would be there too.

My thought, though, is that a Dagorhir group could simply hold a Dagorhir event, advertise it as a Dagorhir event on the Dagorhir boards and website, but then advertise it as a Foam Fighting event everywhere else (or, heck, even as an Amtgard or Belegarth event).

That is to say, there is nothing in the Dag chapter contract, to my knowledge, that would prevent a Dag group from hosting an event at the same time and place as an Amtgard group's event, or a Belegarth group's event.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Wisp » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:08 pm

Thats exactly what I had in mind by setting up a Dag chapter in ST Louis but since no one will return my emails or give me access to the Dag board (still banned), its been hard to do. My final opinion on that matter is... it's easier to just ignore Dagorhir as an organization because it's pretty horribly ran. I'll continue to play with the Dag groups in the area and have fun regardless at all of the events.

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Re: The real story...

Postby Winfang » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:20 pm

Wisp wrote:...it's easier to just ignore Dagorhir as an organization because it's pretty horribly ran. I'll continue to play with the Dag groups in the area and have fun regardless at all of the events.

YES! Please follow Wisp suggestion! It's perfect!

And HACS/whatever event should already be one that we do, like Oktoberfest!
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Re: The real story...

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:33 pm

my suggestion would be...

Get contact info for every realm/group/unit, in every game you can think of, and send them the info for Okfest. Hype it up and tell them it is open to anyone from any group. If any group would like to run a battle or two under their orgs rules, to contact whoever is runnin Okfest and set it up through them. Organize it that way, so that if nero or solar want to run a few battles/scenarios, it can be arranged. Be sure to explain that it is not a recruitment deal, but a comeraderie deal. we all do the same or simular things, perhaps we should do them together some of the time.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Cyric » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:43 pm

Soo Ma Tai wrote:my suggestion would be...

Get contact info for every realm/group/unit, in every game you can think of, and send them the info for Okfest. Hype it up and tell them it is open to anyone from any group. If any group would like to run a battle or two under their orgs rules, to contact whoever is runnin Okfest and set it up through them. Organize it that way, so that if nero or solar want to run a few battles/scenarios, it can be arranged. Be sure to explain that it is not a recruitment deal, but a comeraderie deal. we all do the same or simular things, perhaps we should do them together some of the time.


Nero was going to do that at ockfest this year. I can't remember if it was done or not, but they were going to try and run a few mods (scenarios) for anyone interested. It's easy for them because they use Stonehouse park for their stuff already. A lot of their people were at ockfest anyway.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Wisp » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:45 pm

I think that if you focus on the similarities that each group does the same and cut out the things we do different, we'll find a lot more common ground a lot faster.

1) We all have a basic two limb loss combat. Use that.
2) We all have armor to an extent. Use the most basic form of it. Bel o'Dag's 1 pt regardless is perfect (except for the retarded no stab through armor rule). Use it.
3) We all have archery to some extent. Go with the simplest form of it.

Done.

Scratch magic. Scratch rp scenarios or quests. If a group wants to showcase their specialties, have a info booth on merchant row. Demo's at night or something might be cool, but not in a mandatory event time is devoted to JUST that feature.

I was suggesting an independent event over using an established format like Oktoberfest because it would have it's own non-affiliated identity and would make things flow faster.

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Re: The real story...

Postby Kyrax » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:47 pm

Angmarth wrote:
Kyrax wrote:Uh, 30-something years after the Declaration of Independence we were fighting the War of 1812, so it took more than a few years. It wasn't till near the end of the 1800s that we started cooperating, and then only because the British wanted to use the US as a counter-weight to other "minor" naval powers.


Ah yes, but if you go by the standard that many use and it is a 5 to 1 ratio of Dag/Bel years to real years... we are at 35 years since the split. Doing the math, 1776+35 = 1811, which means we should be on the doorstep of getting things in order.


No Angmarth, by that logic we're on the doorstep of open warfare breaking out for a year or two, followed by cold war/occasional cooperation for another 15 years...

Angmarth wrote:Now back to the discussion at hand. Kyrax, since you are a partaker of both games, what is your formula for healing old wounds in a manner in which neither side will feel slighted.


Like Winfang, I don't think it is likely. Both sides are effectively saying "rejoin on our terms" - you may not see it that way, but I do. To Dagorhir's leaders they have growth, with relatively low drama events that are growing and expanding in both number, size and length. Belegarth fighters, members and units attend them already. So what's to gain for them and their members?

If you can come up with a formula that allows DBGA to retain control of the IP behind the name of the game, Dagorhir, and the Handbook and rules set (a derivative work), you might be able to reach a compromise at some point. Yes that gives the Aratari (from whom the DBGA board is elected) a "nuclear option", but it is no different from what they already have in Dagorhir. Despite that "nuclear option" of being able to withdraw the sanctioning of a chapter via its contract, Dagorhir is growing and chapters pretty much run themselves. The only time that clause is ever invoked is due to a violation of the agreement - specifically a chapter supporting a different group (to date that's been Belegarth, but could be Amtgard or NERO if a chapter started co-hosting/advertising events with those folks).

The big complication that I see from such an arrangement is that currently the MOA is updated with tweaks (and they're just tweaks) based on discussions at Ragnarok's War Council. Obviously that won't work for most western groups - few have the time and money to make that trek (Mordraughchk-ptuii, Vaida, Crynolynn and the Mordorians, and I are just crazy). Something like B-garth's online WC could work, but the devil may be in the details.

Frankly I'd like a re-unification on whatever terms as that would build a stronger, broader based group. There are tons of areas lightly populated with Dagorhir/Belegarth/Darkon groups. Amtgard is present in many of those places, but we provide different options than that group (don't get me wrong, I respect their success and strengths, but no group can be all things to all people). So a unified Dag/Bel could grow in more places and in more ways, simply due to the numbers of vets spread out who can help newer groups (like Magnus of Taur.'s example of me helping Anvard get going, or my experience working with the local Belegarthians while Pelargir was active). In part my wish for reunification is that it could benefit me personally - making it easier to see all my old friends at more events, and for more growth where I am - far away from the power centers of either.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Arrakis » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:32 pm

Kyrax: A quick Note: Rules Cannot Be Copyrighted. It's part of US Copyright Law. So, no, they can't horde the intellectual property of the rules.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Winfang » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:46 pm

I doubt there are any IP lawyers surfing this site. Until one steps up and post their opinion I don't think any of us are qualified to make that statement. Also I do believe Kyrax is talking about the Dagorhir's Manual of Arms which is a derivative work.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Arrakis » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:31 pm

From copyright.gov:

The idea for a game is not protected by copyright. The same is true of the name or title given to the game and of the method or methods for playing it.

Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. Copyright protection does not extend to any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in the development, merchandising, or playing of a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles.

Some material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game, or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container, may be registrable.


And that's not even touching on why it's a good idea to Open Source the whole shebang officially (intelligent licensing, good will, etc.)
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Re: The real story...

Postby Kegg » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:40 pm

Yes. The Dagorhir Manual of Arm is a derivative work of the The Aratari Manual of Arms (which was in turn a derivative of the Handbook) , Numenor rulebook, Chaos rulebook, Dur-Demarion rulebook and Pentwyvern rulebook.

When I compiled the original Dagorhir Manual of Arms, I wrote to and received written permission of all of the above groups to use their individual rules in compiling the Manual of Arms. Specific wordings and rules from each of them went into the Manual of Arms.

While rule concepts in general to something cannot be copyrighted (such as rules to football or sword fighting), the exact expression of a specific rule might be. I probably hold the copyrights to new or unique wording in the MoA, but at the time of the split gave the DBGA permission to use it without reservation in a non-exclusive manner. This happened at the same time I gave the DBGA the aratari.com, org and net domains which I had reserved when I was the Dagorhir website administrator.

In response to Kyrax, no one in Belegarth is interested in the name (Dagorhir) or the handbook (haven't seen it in years). The DBGA has my permission to use my work (the MoA). The BoW was rewritten to describe sword fighting in different language, was copyrighted by me and opened sourced (copylefted). Where the wording is similar, it is probably derived from the MoA which is arguably my work for which I have permission or a specific War Council ruling.

As I said earlier, I believe as an offer of good faith the non-profit group Belegarth, could sign a slightly modified contract which would protect the DBGA trademarks while not agreeing to kill Belegarth if the DBGA or Belegarth decides in the future they are not happy with one another. I too would like to see and fight with (in a good way) many of my old friends (including you Kyrax).
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Re: The real story...

Postby Alunsun » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:57 am

Dedric wrote: ...competing for members...


Foam Fighting... You're doing it wrong!!!
how much about a nike dunk ??every one know??
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Re: The real story...

Postby Jose Bagg » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:05 am

I have posted in this thread twice. I saw my post, read my post, and now they are gone. What gives. Is there some crazy button I am not hitting. I have posted before with great success, why is posting in this thread such an enigma to me?
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Re: The real story...

Postby Derian » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:17 am

Are you hitting 'save' instead of 'submit'?
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Re: The real story...

Postby xiao » Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:28 pm

lol

anyway,

like i said, i'm going to lots of events, always have.

who coming with me? i'll lead the belegarth army if i have to.

lets crushinate the world
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Re: The real story...

Postby Physic » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:47 am

One of the things that I always misunderstood is that people label themselves as either Dag or Bel fighters. Why is it that we cannot be both? I attended events for both organizations. Does this not make me a Dagorhir and Belegarth member.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:20 am

I have always considered myself both Dagorhirim and Belgarthian, at least until the last few weeks ago. Since I have been banned from participation on the Dag boards, I no longer feel as though I can participate in the Dag community. I am now simply a Belegarth fighter, and having had a bad taste left in my mouth more than once now from Dag and Dominus, I will prolly never attend another Dag event.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Arrakis » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:25 am

Bel/Dag 4 LIFE.


(and isn't it "Dagorhirrim and Belegrim"?
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Re: The real story...

Postby bangor » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:38 am

This is because Dagorhir is exclusive. You cannot be Dag and anything else, but you can be Bel/Amt/Dark/Laire/every other boffersportlarp. This is an incredible short-sighted ruling by Dagorhir, as it limits park creation and local numbers, and EVERY OTHER game doesn't shaft the other this way. It's high time that the board of Dagorhir show the age and wisdom that the oldest of the organized boffergames should display. These bannings, exclusive contracts, and other drama-starting antics have got to stop.

Me? I'm none of the above. Bangor labels himself by his unit: the Frostbrew, and we don't do drama.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:44 am

Arrakis- I don't use the "rim" ending on Belegarth, because the word "belegarth" is not of tolkien origin, whereas "dagorhir" is.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Peregrine » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:58 am

Soo Ma Tai wrote:Arrakis- I don't use the "rim" ending on Belegarth, because the word "belegarth" is not of tolkien origin, whereas "dagorhir" is.

"from the home page wrote:The name Belegarth means "Great Realms" in J.R.R. Tolkien's Sindarin language. The name comes from the following.

beleg = adj. great, mighty y/352, S/428 leka (BEL-EK).
ardh = n. realm, region. Ety/360 arda (AR1-AD).

Ety = Etymologies - History of Middle Earth.
S = Silmilrilian
# is page number
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Re: The real story...

Postby Wisp » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:08 am

It is a horrible name though... Belegarth... not nearly as catchy as Dagorhir. Sounds like a fart or something.

:angel: :lol:

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Re: The real story...

Postby Derian » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:24 am

Yeah, Belegarth is of Tolkien origin; it was originally Belegardh. The spelling was changed to the phonetic version because 9 out of 10 people would pronounce it "Belegard".
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Re: The real story...

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:46 pm

"Bele garth" is Middle French for "pretty garden."

Just throwing that out there.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Derian » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:50 pm

Awesome.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:27 pm

I see that my Tolkien knowledge has failed me here...my bad, but the proper use of rim woulld be "Belegardhrim" and would be pronounced "Bel-ek-ar-duh-rim" and we would be known as "Bel-ek-ar-duh". Slurring the name together to get "Bell-a-garth" is why i would never have thought it was a Tolkien word, as the pronounciation was completely off.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Kegg » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:13 pm

Belegardh = strong lands.

Belegardhrim = People of the strong lands

Belegrim = Strong People

That was the intention at least when I came up with the translations.

The web's best sourced reference on pronunciations is at
http://http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/sindarin.htm

Under ELEMENTARY PHONOLOGY it has the bit about pronouncing the dh sound.

dh is pronounced as the th in this = (th)is

I have not seen the dh pronounced - duh

Search the dozens of dh's on the page. Most do not make sense as the -duh- sound.

And obviously another Tolkien word adopted near the date that Belegardh was chosen. Edhellen which means Elvish and the name the Sindar gave the language itself.

I have an record (LP) of Tolkien reading Sindarin. His pronunciation of Edhel (elf) is definitely eth-el, not e-duh-el
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Re: The real story...

Postby Ilariia Bulochnika » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:17 pm

sometimes the dh also = ð = "edth" or "dth"

So Belegardh or Belegarð = bel-a-gar-dth

that's primarily a Old Norse/Icelandic/Scandinavian thing.

Though Tolkien pulled a lot of his story plots from Nordic sagas (think Nibelungen) ad did major studies into Scandinavian linguistics.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Alunsun » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:55 pm

Brenna Haldana wrote:
that's primarily a Old Horse/Icelandic/Scandinavian thing.




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Re: The real story...

Postby Zeldrine Cold » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:56 pm

Having a dyslexic moment?
Mefit the Geek wrote:You'll get what I give you and like it!
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Re: The real story...

Postby Rasheab » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:33 am

... where is the kitty?
Hawaii: Manoa
Washington: Gondor

There are no staffs in Belegarth. Because of how they are constructed, they are really Pugil Sticks.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Oisin » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:08 am

Soo Ma Tai wrote:I have always considered myself both Dagorhirim and Belgarthian, at least until the last few weeks ago. Since I have been banned from participation on the Dag boards, I no longer feel as though I can participate in the Dag community. I am now simply a Belegarth fighter, and having had a bad taste left in my mouth more than once now from Dag and Dominus, I will prolly never attend another Dag event.


That's unfortunate. Please, though, don't blame all of Dagorhir for the ass-hattery that goes on in regards to the boards. 95% of Dagorhir either disagrees with board policies or just don't care. They don't care about intergroup politics, for the same reason that most Belegrim don't, that is, they just want to have a good time. I go to roughly 5 major events a year, from both games, and I have good friends in both games and have wonderful memories from events under both labels. The fact is, though, that the people who run the board are part of that 5% and so no matter how much you may disagree, you have to follow their rules on their board. Just the way it is.

bangor wrote:This is because Dagorhir is exclusive. You cannot be Dag and anything else, but you can be Bel/Amt/Dark/Laire/every other boffersportlarp. This is an incredible short-sighted ruling by Dagorhir, as it limits park creation and local numbers, and EVERY OTHER game doesn't shaft the other this way. It's high time that the board of Dagorhir show the age and wisdom that the oldest of the organized boffergames should display. These bannings, exclusive contracts, and other drama-starting antics have got to stop.


This is only partially true. Dagorhir does not actually seek to limit individuals' participation in different games (although some specific individuals are banned from attending Ragnarok), but it does require that its chapters as organizations are only members of Dagorhir. So, all of the members of hypothetical Dagorhir Realm X could go to Octoberfest or host an intersport event, but they are not allowed to do so under the name of Dagorhir or the name of Realm X.

This may be manipulated in cases where there is a particular grudge at stake, I don't know. I've seen some fair evidence of pettiness and immaturity from both sides of the aisle, though.

To be honest, I'm just sick of the whole thing. I have a vested interest in the well being of both games, I want to see both grow to become the best organizations and the best games that they can be, and I want to do everything I can to try and help make a brighter future for our version of hard-core boffer fighting, under any name. I'd love to see more cooperation in the future, and I think that it will happen as the younger generations who don't remember the split take over the reins of leadership, but I don't think that the split will ever be repaired fully.

What it really comes down to is that I'm just sick and tired of people still fighting over **** that went down when I was in middle school. I mean, for Christ's sake, I'm about to graduate from college.

I don't care who's right and who's wrong, I just want to have fun, hit people with sticks, and see thousands of other people doing so around me.

To quote an old SCA song, I want to see us the builders of a new Valhalla. I want to fight all day, be resurrected by pretty girls, and then spend the night laughing and singing and regaling my friends with lies about my combat prowess, and I hate to see politics or labels get in the way of that.
Last edited by Oisin on Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The real story...

Postby debuenzo » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:08 pm

most fighters i know do both, so i guess we'll just have to wait it out before we can reform old alliances
i guess it's kinda like castro*
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Re: The real story...

Postby Outhro Youkker » Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:03 pm

Well, all I can say is that I am making a foam fighting comunity in North Carolina when I move there.
-The only living foam fighting group there is LARP called S.O.L.A.R.
-Nothing Dag nor Bele.
I have checked and recheched since July 08. >:(
When I get to North Carolina next month, I am conquering the eastern half of the state and setting up fighting groups in 3 different towns. MUAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Going to have others set up the Dag paperwork. The units will be fighting Belegarth, named with Dagorhir, and I am just the mongrel that points and says, "These are all the events in the next few months"
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Re: The real story...

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:48 pm

That seems like the best way to do it.
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Re: The real story...

Postby bangor » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:33 pm

S.O.L.A.R isn't the only group in town. Amtgard is there as well. Go ahead and setup some realms, and maybe you can get some cross-gaming going with the Amt-parks.
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Re: The real story...

Postby The Great Gigsby » Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:18 pm

Outhro Youkker wrote:Going to have others set up the Dag paperwork. The units will be fighting Belegarth, named with Dagorhir, and I am just the mongrel that points and says, "These are all the events in the next few months"
Just for good measure, you should fight under Darkon's rule system, and make every seventh practice a surprise book club meeting. And the book is always a fish.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Outhro Youkker » Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:38 pm

and all newbies must wear a squid as their first tabards
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Re: The real story...

Postby Aiden » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:05 pm

Outhro,
Don't forget you're South Carolina brothers. We're stoked about getting more realms in the Carolinas for sure.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Outhro Youkker » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:21 pm

Aiden wrote:Outhro,
Don't forget you're South Carolina brothers. We're stoked about getting more realms in the Carolinas for sure.

I will be living in Engelhard, a tiny strip of a town that is about at the north eastern corner of the whole state. Raleigh and Whilmington will have my help getting their groups started, but only in Raleigh will I be there every saturday. To get to Wilmington(at the bottom eastern edge of NC) 5 hour drive. Some of their people will drive up to Raleigh to fight on saturday.

If I had the time to roadtrip southbound across to your lands, I would be invading your practices, having you pay for my lunch.

There are some events in Virginia that have my attention because it is a 2.5 to 3 hour drive north from the tiny town where people visit for hunting season. Bear season now, someone promised me an extra bear to leave in the freezer for me.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Cib » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:07 pm

Outhro Youkker wrote:
Aiden wrote:Bear season now, someone promised me an extra bear to leave in the freezer for me.


I have something to say about this: Get a bear. Make armor out of it. That is all.
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Re: The real story...

Postby The Great Gigsby » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:19 pm

And eat the bear. It's the most absolutely **** delicious animal in the * world.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Cib » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:28 pm

So I have heard. Have yet to try it though. I also hear it is the most human like meet out there, and can be sicking to prepare because of that.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Arrakis » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:25 am

It's too * greasy. Eat more deer.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Derian » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:54 am

I had bear meat out of a can once. It was packed in some sort of oily syrup. Talk about greasy.

I have kangaroo, ostrich and alligator jerky around here somewhere.
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Re: The real story...

Postby Rasheab » Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:12 am

Bear is good. Ate it as a burger. Mmmm. (Of course deer is also good to.)

And yes, get bear, make armor. DO IT. (If my neighbor still bear hunted, I would totally be there.)
Hawaii: Manoa
Washington: Gondor

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