The real story...

[Dedric]

Hey, *I* never signed anything. The contract outlines things a Dag CHAPTER must do. It never says the members can't be involved with or promote other games, etc., just what the chapter as a whole can do. I would have written it less restrictively, but I really don't see the problem with it. The worst thing that could happen, anyway, is that they say, "oh, you're not an official chapter anymore, you'll have to play independently, or join... *shudders* Belegarth." Lol... it's not like the contracts you "agree" to with your "electronic signature" every time you install computer software, where you can go to jail for 1,027 years for forgetting to install it on your old computer before you install it on your new one, or whatever.

And who says no one's going to budge? Dominus doesn't want to budge. Heck, maybe he's right, I dunno. Or maybe the Belegarth forces that won't budge are. But before anybody can determine whether or not there's going to be budging, there has to be a hard-and-fast proposal for what budging is required. If you come to me and say, "are you willing to compromise," my first question is going to be, "compromise what?" If I don't get a straight answer, then the answer is clearly going to be no.

[Olos]

The best route here would be to find concessions each side is willing to make to run a joint event. For example, we might use Dagorhir's rules but have a Belegarth realm check weapons or whatever.

That would actually be pretty sweet. I generally like the battle scenarios a tad bit more at dag events, and from what I have experienced, Bel weapons check seems to be quite a bit smoother and heavy handed, seen some iffy stuff get through check at rag.

And one big * non-cliquish party at night.

Hellz yeah to xiao/etc. drumming with the eryndor chicks dancing, ala badon.


But yeah, all in all, I don't see a reunification happening soon. Let's all just hit each other with foam sticks and hope the rules stay generally the same(the only one you really have to think about currently is the magic switch, and that's not really a big deal unless its a 1v1 or you're retarded, so meh) so all of us that don't care can go to events for both.

[Big King Jimmy]

There are a lot of other little things that I just don't think would go smooth. Dag can be a lot more strict on garb with things Belegarth doesn't care about ie: underarmor or white shoes. Also from what I've seen and heard Belegarth and Dagorhir heralding styles have grown apart. Plus, do we put 750 people on the field for 2 hours or 8?

[Olos]

Eh, Rome's the only noticeable ones that go home early. Okfest seems to have a higher ratio of fighers to attendees than rag, though rag does have more total people on the field, but the number of people on the field seems to fluctuate about the same amount.

Also, remember, at dag fighting, 90% of it is rez battles, where bel is mostly not. So in 2 hours of dag fighting(if you are there all the time) you spend almost all of it fighting, whereas in bel, unless you are really good, you'll be sitting on the ground for a good amount of it.

I still don't know whether I prefer the rez or the non-rez though. With the rez, you usually fight a bit harder, and you don't get * when you die cause youll just be right back out there, but it gets boring sometimes, cause there's no feeling of accomplishment, you just hurl yourself into the bloodbath, and both sides keep fighting in the middle. With non-rez, you feel like you are actually fighting for something.

[Dedric]

Dude! I, too, am a dwelf! :-P And yes, Rome goes back to camp early. I might, too, if I had to wear all that armor! But I'm usually one of the people out there ALL day, taking a couple of quick breaks, until dark, fighting with the 20-30 people that are left out there. I'm not missing any opportunity for fighting during the week I get at Rag (well, unless there's something else cool to do).

[Akbar the Foul]

Lol well, some of this stuff is news to me, Akbar. That's why I asked about it in the first place. *shrugs* Maybe there were old posts about it, but I couldn't find any that were helpful.

Well whoop dee **** doo. Now that you've finished excavating the burial site, behold your prize!



Go ahead and take a good whack at it. And next time just PM somebody.

[Angmarth]

The only real "reunification" needed at this point is a joint week long event venture. A "Foam Pennsic" to borrow a term used by a few people already. If we produced such an event, the other groups (besides Dag/Bel) would fall in I'm sure. The groups may never become one (and frankly I don't think they should), but that doesn't mean that we can't become allies. I know that the leadership of Dag is stilled * about the split, but so was King George when the colonies rebelled. It took a few years to get that bad taste out of everone's mouth then, but I think we have become pretty good friends since then. The Brits still think we are corny and have bad taste, but when push comes to shove we back each other.

[Arrakis]

Haaaate res battles. Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate.

No-Res ftw.

That is all.

[Rocca]

Oh my gosh . . . A massive Foam Fest . . . I'm getting starry eyed just thinking about it . . . That would SOOOO be worth taking a flight out east for . . .

[Alunsun]

Rocca, do you play Dark Age?

[Rocca]

No. What is it?

[Owen]

The thing that most people forget is the things that were lost in what happened. The people and the realms that were torn apart, the friendships that were lost and the over all general hostility that was born of the entire incident.

This time in the history of our games changed everything, it tore us apart, idealism ran rampit through out the world sides were drawn up and some of the leaders declared either you are with me or against me. There was very little room for the middle people that agreed with both factions. These people had to choose a side and when they did this the world as we knew it blew apart.

I believe that it did not have to come to this, if people would have just listened to one another. However that was not the case hindsight being what it is and all, so we ended up here.

There is enough blame to go around, there is enough hate and distrust still associated with this issue that the mention of it cause good men like Winfang to go all feudal position like, chew his apple sauce and shut the world out.

I do however believe that in the end we will reform as one organization that clearer heads will prevail. It’s been what seven going on eight years? Yeah we will be alright in the end, after all, we are nothing if not one big dysfunctional family.

O

[Kegg]

A path to bring the sports together.

1.) Run a foam Pennsic (East and Mid = Dagorhir and Belegarth) run with Dagorhir and Belegarth rules and administration in alternating years (think of it as super play testing of our slight rules variations).
2.) Have the Belegarth president sign a slightly modified contract (lose the bit about giving away all your corporations assets if you don't have a valid Dagorhir contract) which in effect gives "contract" cover to all Belegarth chapters.
3.) Belegarth and Dagorhir run just as they do today (voting, own rules, hosting events, running boards, etc.)

Pretty simple isn't it. The DBGA gets a contract. Both groups run their internal affairs as they see fit, we get official cross over and cross promotion making the overall sport larger. We have a great opportunity to play test slight rules changes.

Neat, isn't it?

[Forkbeard]

Pretty slick, Kegg, like it.
Honestly, without that part about them being able to take our money, I'd sign the contract and be a Dag group. I honestly don't care what the name of our national group is, so long as you people are in it. My realm feels the same.
FB

[Dedric]

That sounds like a great proposal. I would fully support it.

On the issue of the DBGA absorbing chapter resources, I realize the problems with this if the DBGA can arbitrarily pull your contract, and then take your money. However, it leaves a gaping question (to me, anyway) in its wake. What happens if a chapter folds (say, there is strife within the chapter, and then a couple of the chapter leaders go in opposite directions geographically, and the people that are left are willing to drive an hour or two or three to practice with another chapter occasionally, and don't want to keep going, or whatever, make up a scenario). So let's say that said chapter has a couple of hundred dollars in the bank. What would you want to be done with the money?

[Kegg]

All not for profit entities must decide what to do with their assets when they cease to exist. It should be spelled out when they start as a not for profit. No one has a problem of the assets being distributed if the group ceased to exist.

The problem would be that a group, say Belegarth ran afoul of some DBGA directive and had their contract pulled. Obviously the organization is still there, it is still fulfilling the mission of why it started, it just no longer has a contract with another entity (DGBA). There is no reason to dissolve that entity at that time. Therefore no need to zero out assets. As I said, a relatively simple contract change.

[xiao]

dang with ya lawyer speak

[Alunsun]

No. What is it?

Dark Age of Camelot is an MMO in which Tir Na Nog is the main city for one of the three factions.

[Rocca]

oh, cool. no, i'm not really into mmo's, though thats mostly because i don't have a computer that could hadle them - my comp lags playing diablo II single player - If i go online it freezes. *shrug* That thing about the name is cool though. We named the realm that for the historical use of the name, but after we did we've had tons of people as if we named it after somthing-or-other. Apparently there was also a TV show called "Mystic Knights of Tir na nOg" so we've had alot of people ask if its from there too.

[Owen]

A path to bring the sports together.

1.) Run a foam Pennsic (East and Mid = Dagorhir and Belegarth) run with Dagorhir and Belegarth rules and administration in alternating years (think of it as super play testing of our slight rules variations).
2.) Have the Belegarth president sign a slightly modified contract (lose the bit about giving away all your corporations assets if you don't have a valid Dagorhir contract) which in effect gives "contract" cover to all Belegarth chapters.
3.) Belegarth and Dagorhir run just as they do today (voting, own rules, hosting events, running boards, etc.)

Pretty simple isn't it. The DBGA gets a contract. Both groups run their internal affairs as they see fit, we get official cross over and cross promotion making the overall sport larger. We have a great opportunity to play test slight rules changes.

Neat, isn't it?

Not really no, that does not bring the groups back together and united it keeps them apart.

[Dedric]

Well, Owen, it keeps them apart in name for the time being. But I think it would make us new friends, heal old wounds, grow our groups, and stop the Dark Ages-style DBGA silence restraints on discussion of Belegarth.

[Doug C]

I don't think any reconciliation can happen until a particular gentleman at the top of the Dagorhir food chain is marginalized.

I mean, as long as you can get banned for even mentioned Belegarth on their boards, there's no chance for any sort of make up between the two groups.

[Arrakis]

Who cares about reunification??

Just play the * game!

[Kegg]

I consider it a first step Owen, to build trust on both sides. It may be the only step possible.

I would love a single sport, representative in nature but I don't think the DBGA is willing to go there.

[Angus Khan]

Greetings from the East....

We in the Imperial Guard have started paying attention to this thread a little while ago. The lovely Crynolyn told my brother Simon and several others in Eryndor about what was being discussed here. Many of us find it to be exciting and worth while. So many of your ranks come to our events and vice versa. This is a great time for growing in our sport and many of us feel that a reunification would be of great benefit to both sides.

While we play games, we are not children. We should be able to find a way to stop argueing about which end of the boiled egg to crack open.

[Angmarth]

Keeping our autonomy is crucial in my opinion, but I am only one voice. I think the 2 groups should come together 1x a year and play for all the marbles, get up smiling and do it again. As I have stated before, I really think that you can look at this as two divisions of the same sport. NFC & AFC or NL & AL, take your pick. Both have different styles of play, and in the case of baseball you even have slight rule variations.

I don't care who wins the giant ridiculous battle, I just want to be in it with EVERYONE else.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I agree that only real step that can be taken at this point is a jointly run event for all foam fighting groups, as well as an attempt to keep all chapters/realms/units/individuals informed about all foam fighting events that are happening.

[SteelClad_Lad]

I don't play either Dagorhir or Belegarth--just SCA. I don't even think there are Dagorhir or Belegarth chapters in my whole state. I just wandered in, having been pointed towards a discussion on your History, Warfare, and Tactics board by a friend whom I know from the Armour Archive.

Out of curiosity, I read through this thread, and followed the links to the discussions on the Dagorhir board. As an outsider, I come away with the impression that both games would be better off if this "Dominus" character were kicked out forever. It seems like his "Rome" website is set up to be nothing but a cult of personality revolving around him; the guy is on a serious ego trip. And his rant on "other people" not letting go of whatever issues surround the Dagorhir/Belegarth split? What a hypocrite! I don't see anyone else devoting a whole page of their organization's website to ranting about it.

Seriously. Dominus is bad for Dagorhir's image. If I were looking for a foam LARP (and I'm not; I like my full plate armour too much--with it's steel knees and elbows, thank you), I'd choose Belegarth over Dagorhir in a heartbeat just to spite that guy. Dagorhir comes off sounding like the villians in this story, largely because of his attitude.

It seems to me that kicking Dominus to the curb would be the best thing to happen to Dagorhir. What a paranoid, egomaniacal, autocratic, Type-A control freak! The world needs fewer such tin-pot dictators in positions of authority.

[Dedric]

I am not defending Dominus' actions or decisions, however, I think it only fair to point out that he has played a large role in running Rag for years, during which it has experienced exponential growth, and I have had a great deal of fun. He has also built arguably the most well-organized and impressive unit in Dagorhir. And, speaking from my own personal experience, he is a charismatic leader on the battlefield, as well as being a skilled and honorable opponent. If you disagree with his politics, voice your opinion, but I, for one, cannot put him down as a person. In many ways, his Dagorhir career has been a great success. Once again, I'm not saying I agree with his politics, but when we're bashing him we should keep the other side of the story in mind as well...

[Derian]

To further expand on what Dedric said, again, please stay civil in this thread. We're all adults and don't need to drag the conversation down with personal insults.

[SteelClad_Lad]

Sorry. It's not that I'm trying to be insulting or uncivil at all. I don't know the guy. I'm only passing along the impression of him that I have after lurking here and at the Dagorhir boards. If that impression is negative, it's only because he seems to have worked hard to give outsiders a negative impression of him. Several times now, people have leapt to his defense, assuring us that he's really not such a bad guy. I don't see it. I'm not usually the sort to go around getting offended on other people's behalf--especially people I've never met who play a game I don't play, but attitudes like the one Dominus displays online just burn me up for some inexplicable reason.

Honestly, how can anyone read the portion of his website that deals with his position of "Imperator" and not conclude that the guy is on an ego trip?

http://www.romanempire.net/romepage/For ... AGISTRATES

Does that not disturb anyone else? I can't imagine why anyone would willingly join that club.

How about this passage?

I understand that any item acquired or assembled by me or for me, while a citizen of Rome, of a wargaming club nature will be forfeit to Rome in the event my citizenship is either revoked or voluntarily withdrawn by me. Items of a wargaming nature shall include all costuming, armor, weapons, literature and all miscellaneous items designed specifically for participation in a war gaming club.

I can hardly believe what I'm reading. And people willingly subject themselves to these rules? Can he really do that? What if a member makes an item for use in a different game? He can take something away even if you buy it with your own money? Does Dominus really think he can compel that person to give him the fruits of his/her labor just because he demands it? That's awful! Does that not strike anyone else as presumptuous and deeply selfish? Well-organized or not, I find little to admire in such a brutal and severe set of rules.

Surely you have to admit that, if one is forming an impression of him based solely on his online behavior, both on the Dagorhir boards and his personal website, one comes away with a very, very negative impression of Dominus indeed.

[Wisp]

I agree with Angmarths point above. One big event, attended by all, one universal set of simple rules, would basically allow each group to have its cake and eat it too.

This time last year, I was of the opinion Ragnarok was the answer to that and everyone should just suck it up and let by-gones be by-gones from the Belegarth crew. It seemed to have the most potential to have the "foam pennsic" based on what I understood to be the event.

After attending Rag, I still think that has a lot of possibility but I don't think it will ever be what I hoped. The hype suggested over 3,000 in attendance. The event hit it's peak by tuesday and fizzled out from there.

Heres my talking points...

This past Rag, the attendance was around 1500 or so. Maybe 1700 but deff less than 2000. Thats about the same as what Amtgard's Clan was at it's peak. Maybe a little less, I seem to think Clan had about that or more in its peak during the mid/late 90's.

Foam fighting is largely made up of late teens early 20's players. There is a revolving door. High Schools and Colleges seem to be the best strongholds of players. Once players get past that age, real life comes along and they stop playing, or go on to groups like the SCA. A few diehards stick around and there are more and more 30 somethings on the scene, but by and large, this is a minority. My experience has shown that the average boffer fighter has about a three year life span. Anything more than that and they are long term. It seems every couple of years boffer groups completely change faces with the exception of those couple of die hards.

Dag/Bel had a massive surge after the LoTR movies came out. Games like WoW have also opened the door to a lot of peeps who would normally have nothing to do with fantasy / medieval groups like this. I would guess that the mass influx of new players has spent its juice and won't come around again until the Hobbit movie or something similar comes out and allows for some renewed interest. If the norm holds true and players "graduate" on out the door at a faster rate than new players come in, things will soon be back to their standard numbers of whats reasonable for this kind of sub-culture.

Dag is anchored in the east with a scattering here and there. Bel seems to be anchored in the midwest with a scattering here and there. On their own, I really don't see either group ever reaching a "pennsic" style event in terms of numbers. There just isn't a solid organization for either in the same sense that the SCA has. I personally think the lack of organization by region, national awards systems, etc. is a large part of this, but thats another topic.

If you toss in Darkon, Nero, Amtgard, Melee, MAFS, etc. etc. etc... a lot of the gaps get filled. There is still a lot of identity and fanatical loyalty issues among all the various groups that prevent people from signing on whole heartedly to attending this or that groups big event. Each little group struggles to survive and competes for membership. That alone keeps groups small. It keeps events small. Some sort of once a year, independent event, open to all, would be much more likely to pull numbers than a "our event is open to everyone" kind of situation. You'll always get cross-gamers attending big events, but until you remove the aspect of games trying to "showcase" themselves, it will still just be visitors in attendance.

In order for the independent event idea to work in full force though, you'd have to have support from the movers and shakers of as many larps as possible. Even then, it would be a building process for the first few years.

My .02

Will

[Peregrine]

SteelClad_Lad
lol, thanks for the outside perspective. I hope you stick around.

[Dedric]

SteelClad, as far as the Romans keeping weapons built by those who are Romans, this is because they had issues with people joining just so they could learn advanced foamsmithing, and then leaving and taking their weapons with them. Personally, I don't care - I say the more weapon tech improves, the better off everyone is. But I do understand why this would upset them. In addition, you have to keep in mind that Rome, as a unit founded by Dominus, has spent very large amounts of money on COMMUNITY ARMOR, weapons built with more advanced materials than our good old PVC and blue camping foam, etc. And this guy fronted a lot of the money to do that. Also, ego trip or not, he has a lot of good fighters who are far better soldiers, who are very loyal to him and the unit. Once again, not necessarily a unit I would want to join, but I definitely have to respect the man for what he has built.

And he definitely comes off very differently online and in person. In person Dominus has always friendly and gracious around me. Though I don't have a problem with his online persona, I see that many do, and I understand why. But that's just how he comes off, and I really think it would not be in anyone's best interests to take some of his harsher online statements, and a brief clip out of a unit charter, and judge him on those, while forgetting about all the contributions he has made to Dagorhir.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I guess what I had to say really * in someones cornflakes, cause now I am banned from posting on the Dag boards. ROFL, whatever, their loss. I just hate putting my hand out there to get **** on, then smacked , for being bad.

And the Dominus/Rome opinion of, "I don't wanna teach you if you are going to leave eventually" is CRAP, it really is. If I made something with my own money and time, and all they did was show me how, I would tell them to * off, if it was loaner stuff that's different. God forbid someone learn something and then go off and teach others too....for shame, the spreading of good information, that should be listed as a sin.

You know Dedric, I am sure Hitler was a nice guy in person too, but that sure didn't stop him from killing millions. I am sure that Dom is nice in person too, but I got banned from the Dag boards for the few, non-combative, non-recruiting, non-offensive posts I made, think about it.

[Kyrax]

...I know that the leadership of Dag is stilled * about the split, but so was King George when the colonies rebelled. It took a few years to get that bad taste out of everone's mouth then, but I think we have become pretty good friends since then. The Brits still think we are corny and have bad taste, but when push comes to shove we back each other.

Uh, 30-something years after the Declaration of Independence we were fighting the War of 1812, so it took more than a few years. It wasn't till near the end of the 1800s that we started cooperating, and then only because the British wanted to use the US as a counter-weight to other "minor" naval powers.

Sorry, that History minor sneaks out at times...

[Peregrine]

I think it's great that we can have this discussion, can we continue it on the Dag board?

well, that answers my question.

[Angus Khan]

Just because you don't have a swarm of Dag people posting here, don't think we aren't reading and paying lots of attention.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Pay all the attention you want Dag peeps, it wont do any good. Aratari BoD runs Dag, not the players. If it were the players, things would not be as they are now, but it's them. Until that changes and the fighters of Dag control it's gov't, none of this is going to change.

[Peregrine]

I am all for playing nice and visiting each others events, even an event we co hosted with Dag. heck even defer to their rules where their is a difference. but I don't see the need for "reunification". I think their room for both groups as they currently are.

[Dedric]

Hitler? Soo, I'm sorry you got banned, but did you really expect anything else to come from posting about Belegarth on a Dagorhir board, honestly? Dominus is just doing his job as he feels it needs to be done, and he's not harming anyone in the process. There are no ovens full of jews here, just a few people who have been banned from posting on an Internet forum. Huge difference.

Peregrine, I, personally, would really like to see reunification. I think it's silly that we have a Bel group and a Dag group in the same city in some cases, competing for members. At worst, I'd like to see them coordinate, hold joint practices and events, that sort of thing. But that's the thing - we can unify fighters and events, without officially unifying the sports. And I really think reconciliation is important, regardless of reunification.

[Angmarth]

...I know that the leadership of Dag is stilled * about the split, but so was King George when the colonies rebelled. It took a few years to get that bad taste out of everone's mouth then, but I think we have become pretty good friends since then. The Brits still think we are corny and have bad taste, but when push comes to shove we back each other.

Uh, 30-something years after the Declaration of Independence we were fighting the War of 1812, so it took more than a few years. It wasn't till near the end of the 1800s that we started cooperating, and then only because the British wanted to use the US as a counter-weight to other "minor" naval powers.

Sorry, that History minor sneaks out at times...

Ah yes, but if you go by the standard that many use and it is a 5 to 1 ratio of Dag/Bel years to real years... we are at 35 years since the split. Doing the math, 1776+35 = 1811, which means we should be on the doorstep of getting things in order.

Now back to the discussion at hand. Kyrax, since you are a partaker of both games, what is your formula for healing old wounds in a manner in which neither side will feel slighted.

[SteelClad_Lad]

Dominus is just doing his job as he feels it needs to be done, and he's not harming anyone in the process.

Define "harm." I think he is indeed doing harm--to the game's reputation and public image, if nothing else. While I understand that Dominus is not Dagorhir, he is, as you've stated here, a very prominent member of that game's power brokers, and clearly, to some, he is the public face of the game.

Peregrine, I, personally, would really like to see reunification....I really think reconciliation is important, regardless of reunification.

And demonstrably, Dominus is a huge obstacle to that dream of reconciliation/reunification. Granted, I know nothing about the issues in play here apart from what I've read in this thread (heck, until last night, I'd never even heard of Belegarth, only Dagorhir), I still think that, until something is done about Dominus' attitude, reconciliation is not possible. I hope the Dagorhir members wake up to this and put the fellow in his place, take him down a few notches, or something. I can't help but want to see him humbled.

[Big King Jimmy]

Hitler? Soo, I'm sorry you got banned, but did you really expect anything else to come from posting about Belegarth on a Dagorhir board, honestly? Dominus is just doing his job as he feels it needs to be done, and he's not harming anyone in the process. There are no ovens full of jews here, just a few people who have been banned from posting on an Internet forum. Huge difference.

Peregrine, I, personally, would really like to see reunification. I think it's silly that we have a Bel group and a Dag group in the same city in some cases, competing for members. At worst, I'd like to see them coordinate, hold joint practices and events, that sort of thing. But that's the thing - we can unify fighters and events, without officially unifying the sports. And I really think reconciliation is important, regardless of reunification.

You don't want reunification, you want us to rejoin you. That's what we get all the time, "Come back to Dagorhir." and it's NOT going to happen. "We want you back, but keep everything that makes you different, like your open mindedness to other foam fighting groups, your under armor and your fierce independence away."

[Soo Ma Tai]

Hitler? Soo, I'm sorry you got banned, but did you really expect anything else to come from posting about Belegarth on a Dagorhir board, honestly? Dominus is just doing his job as he feels it needs to be done, and he's not harming anyone in the process.

I hardly see where any of my posts even referenced Belegarth, except once where I mention the idea of a Dag/Bel run event. I posted nothing about Belegarth, only that Kegg had offered Stonehouse at a great price (free) for a ~dagorhir~ event, I encourage you to find where I broke the forums rules. In fact your Grand High Lazyass posted more about Belegarth than I did and he is still posting away. I had hoped that yes, something different would have come of it, but apparently "hey guys, wanna use this great park for free" is the same as "hey, drop Dag and come fight Bel". Strangely, I don't see it that way, and apparently niether does most of the Dag and Bel communities, only those in charge of Dagorhir.

[Zeldrine Cold]

Soo all your reasons are why I never post there. I understand wanting total control of the forums but really do you need to make sure that no one disagrees with you?

[Cib]

Wisp, So, like a giant HACS event?

I agree, why stop at Bel and Dag? Get everyone you can involved. Bel, Dag, Amt, SCA, EMP, NERO, Drakon...

Would inviting all the buffers one can think of to such an event, and letting them selves have a both or something to advertise themselves work. Maybe also allowing each org to run a battle or tow by there own rule work in getting the major orgs to come?

Kinda like a boffer conference / Boffer renfair?

[Wisp]

HACs happened while I was overseas so I didn't get to jump onto that train but yes, more or less but without the attempt to make money or get on TV.

If I were hosting the event, I'd do it something like this...

Friday-Sunday...

Friday: Nothing serious on this day... pick up battles, ditch-a-thon, lots of social interaction time for people to mingle both on and off the field.

Sat: Tournaments during the morning. Bare bones single elimination. No armor, nadda... just stripped down basic combat rules. Saturday afternoon, Team tourneys. Ten man, short field, capture the flag, jugging type scenarios. Saturday afternoon late: Massive field battle. Saturday evening large scale woods battle capture the flag. Slot armies by fighting companies / units. Saturday night... massive party. Hell, get a band to play. Lit ditch field on the side for those die hards wanting to keep the fighting going without a lot of organized chaos. Just line up, ditch, rinse, repeat.

Sunday: Massive field battle sunday morning. Scenario themed. The city battle at Rag was a great example of that.

Sunday afternoon, closing ceremony, hand out trophies to the tourney winners. Close the site and call it a weekend.

Absolutely invite all the groups. Thats the idea. If it takes off, extend it into a Thursday - Sunday type deal. Maybe longer if it really picks up steam over the course of a few years.

Will

[Olos]

...I know that the leadership of Dag is stilled * about the split, but so was King George when the colonies rebelled. It took a few years to get that bad taste out of everone's mouth then, but I think we have become pretty good friends since then. The Brits still think we are corny and have bad taste, but when push comes to shove we back each other.

Uh, 30-something years after the Declaration of Independence we were fighting the War of 1812, so it took more than a few years. It wasn't till near the end of the 1800s that we started cooperating, and then only because the British wanted to use the US as a counter-weight to other "minor" naval powers.

Sorry, that History minor sneaks out at times...

Ah yes, but if you go by the standard that many use and it is a 5 to 1 ratio of Dag/Bel years to real years... we are at 35 years since the split. Doing the math, 1776+35 = 1811, which means we should be on the doorstep of getting things in order.

Now back to the discussion at hand. Kyrax, since you are a partaker of both games, what is your formula for healing old wounds in a manner in which neither side will feel slighted.

Actually, going by that reconing, we are on the doorstep of duking it out over who controls Canada.

YA! * canadians.

[Rasheab]

I've written and then chosen not to post several responces over the last week, because I came along after the split and live way out west. But since we're on page 5, I'll put in another 2c.

I'm a proud Belegarthian. I'm peachy with getting along with other groups and supporting the sport as a whole. However I also like Belegarth as a seperate entity. I think two smaller organizations better represent the sport than one huge group. If one day the organizations reunite I'll go along with it, but until then I'm just fine with how we are.

But it would need to be the groups reuniting, not Belegarth "returning" to the fold. It appears that we split from Dagorhir for a pretty good reason, so unity would need to be two organizations deciding they can accomplish more together than apart.

I think it's great that Dominus is apparently a fine person in real life. However since when does one not have to take responcibility for one's actions? If he's a jerk on the internet, he needs to take responcibility for how he comes off and what he says, not just smile in person and have people forgive him. He is a public figure of Dagorhir (not to mention running thier boards), so his actions reflect on the organization, just as Steel has mentioned.

It's one thing to not allow people to keep community weapons and armor. That seems like a given. Ownership stays with who payed for the materials, unless otherwise specified. But thinking that you can keep someone's equipment, simply because you taught them how to build? BS.

I think a joint event would be amazing, and is totally the way to go. But Dedric, we aren't the ones standing in the way of such a event. We're having this discussion on Belegarth boards, Dagorhir isn't a censored word here, and our groups (AS groups) are allowed to attend any event they wish to. I'm sure such an event will come into existance because awsome people in both organizations are (I'm sure) working on it, but the Dagorhir leadership isn't making such a proposal any easier in the mean time.