The real story...

[Alunsun]

This means that Dagorhir is, in my opinion, less cliquish or conformist...

http://www.dagorhir.com/cgi-bin/ultimat ... 1&t=001050

[Dedric]

Keggland, eh? That sounds like a fantastic idea. After the split, I could certainly understand why the RWC wouldn't want to hold events there though. Imagine if Dominus started Dominusland and offered to host Armageddon there. I, personally, hope to check out some larger Bel events there in the '09 season, however.

As far as the subject of drama, this whole rivalry between the two groups is a cause for enough drama as it is. I've always been a proponent of the idea that it's better to know than to not know. In addition, since both groups use their attendance to get one-up on the other, and especially since it's impossible for most of us with limited budgets (like myself) to show up at every event that's held, I want to know so I can choose which organization I really want to support. And there are other considerations, like the fact that I could very conceivably sit on the RWC at some point during the next few years, and that if I do, I want to be as informed as possible on the politics of the situation. Dominus is clear, he doesn't mince words, and he doesn't talk in generalities. I needed something similar from the Bel community, and got it (some from this board, and some from asking an experienced fighter I know personally). There's actually another, and far more important, reason for the questions I asked, but I prefer not to post it on a public forum as of yet.

[MagnusofDregoth]

Alunsun, I can't read the post you linked because the link is broken. But, I will say, the internet is not the real-life representation of Dagorhir, or anything else for that matter.

[Dedric]

http://www.dagorhir.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001050

I fixed the link. This topic keeps getting brought up as seeming to indicate wrongdoing in Dagorhir. I understand and appreciate that Belegarth does not seek to withhold information about other groups, HOWEVER... Dagorhir does, specifically about its "splinter" group, Belegarth. And agree or not, I fully understand the reasons for it. Physic was obviously trying to recruit for a BELEGARTH realm, something specifically banned by the Dag boards because of the simple fact that Belegarth split off from Dagorhir as a competing game under less-than-friendly circumstances. So I don't blame the admins for doing what they did one bit.

I do think that Dagorhir needs a web presence that's less restrictive and doesn't make you feel that Big Brother is your friendly Web Herald. That project is under way. :-)

[Arrakis]

Dedric, Physic was obviously recruiting for a DAGORHIR realm or, at least, just trying to give people in a certain geographical area an opportunity to fight with someone of his not at all insignificant skill. I don't see why the DGBA has to consider allowing Dag people a place to fight that they might not otherwise know about to be some sort of competition for members. I don't CARE, and I'm sure most Belegrim feel similarly, what group I fight with: I fight with who's nearby. If I start a Bel Realm (because I don't need to notarize anything...) in *, Egypt and then I see a guy posting on the Dag boards looking for other fighters or chapters in *, Egypt, like 5 miles away from my established group, uh, yeah, I pretty much think that that guy won't care about what name my group calls itself or the politics of the situation; I think he'll just be happy to have a place to fight.

Why can't we all just make war instead of flaming?

[Dedric]

I'm not flaming anybody. Personally, I don't care what group I fight with, as long as it's being run honestly and fairly, and without trying to harm another group. I have no problem fighting in Dagorhir, Belegarth, Darkon, or NERO (and have been to three of the above, and plan on making that four this upcoming year).

I still have to defend the admins decision with Physic, though. Personally, I'd prefer to see the boards open to discussion of other games, but I wasn't in on that decision. I do understand that cutting that sort of thing keeps the official Dagorhir website Dagorhir-only, and there are reasons to want to do that. However, he was clearly trying to recruit a new Dag fighter to a Bel realm, and that's just forbidden by the forum.

[Arrakis]

You aren't taking my point.

He wasn't "recruiting" (read: sniping) a new Dag fighter into becoming a Belegarth Fighter instead.

He was trying to give a chapterless, unitless, realmless fighter a place to come swing a sword.

I keep seeing Dag referring to Bel as its competition. WE AREN'T COMPETING, GUYS. We just want to have fun!

[Physic]

I'm not flaming anybody. Personally, I don't care what group I fight with, as long as it's being run honestly and fairly, and without trying to harm another group. I have no problem fighting in Dagorhir, Belegarth, Darkon, or NERO (and have been to three of the above, and plan on making that four this upcoming year).

I still have to defend the admins decision with Physic, though. Personally, I'd prefer to see the boards open to discussion of other games, but I wasn't in on that decision. I do understand that cutting that sort of thing keeps the official Dagorhir website Dagorhir-only, and there are reasons to want to do that. However, he was clearly trying to recruit a new Dag fighter to a Bel realm, and that's just forbidden by the forum.

At the time of this happening we had no affiliation toward any group. We actually had more Dag fighters in the area then Bel. We did try to start a Dag chapter but due to those unfortunate circumstances we were forced to become Bel. This scenario did nothing to help Dag as a whole and only shows the bad decisions that are made by certain members of Dag leadership.

[Soo Ma Tai]

That's kinda my point, if no one is making money, why is it a competetion? I think someone, somewhere, is makin money. Otherwise there is no need for competetion.

[Forkbeard]

I think its just a big * contest.
I've never ran an evetn where we didn't loose money, so I don't beleive it's money.
I think the people originally invovled(probly on both sides) started out being * and that turned into this"I have more freinds than you" contest.
FB

[Wisp]

Not always about money. Groups like Belegarth and Dagorhir (or any other sub-culture game) have a weird tendency to be full of ego-fiends. Some pretty hostile drama can pop up in even the smallest of groups. Take it to a "national" scale (laughable as that is) and it can get even nuttier. Thats how I see the split from my outsider perspective.

I was banned from the Dag boards for fear I was a Amtgard politician looking to cause trouble or influence Rag this last year (at least thats what I was told by three separate Dag folks). All I had done was ask questions about the game so our unit would be better prepared to attend a Dag event. A lot of the folks who were going to go to Rag with us decided that was too silly for them and so decided to not go. This was because it was a re-enforcement of the stereo-type Dagorhir has in Amtgard. A small group of us went anyway and we had a blast.

The end result of it all, was once back in St Louis, I now play at Arnor with Belegarth. I had toyed with the idea of starting a Dag chapter on Sundays since there are a lot of Dag groups in MO. and the local Bel group plays on Saturday. I can recruit players, build groups, and I can run a mean event. Dag's loss. Thats the part that irritates me.

Will

[Kegg]

No. I won't respond in kind to untoward attacks.

I think the sports should reunified. Things should be worked out. Have said so for years, have tried to make it happen on many occasions. Unfortunately I have been unsuccessful.

I hold no hard feelings. I still like everyone in the DBGA (including Greymael and Dominus). Anyone who says reunification is not happening because of the old guard in Belegarth are being silly.

Stonehouse Park would love to host Ragnarok. The site is currently ready to handle 2500. We are upgrading to hold 20,000. The price would be much less than Spring Valley. The park is 80 miles north of the Rag site (so too far north is not a problem). The problem is that it is too far west (Illinois). I would hold it free the first year if it brought the sports together (saving $30,000 to $40,000 that Dagorhir would pay to Spring Valley).

The name of the park is Stonehouse Park (not Keggland) Keggland is a non-approved (by me) nickname for the park because I am primarily responsible for making it a reality. Yes. I am responsible for mortgages, insurance, employees, etc. No. I am not responsible for running all of the events that occur there (see SCA, Civil War, NERO, WWII, etc).

[Dedric]

At the time of this happening we had no affiliation toward any group. We actually had more Dag fighters in the area then Bel. We did try to start a Dag chapter but due to those unfortunate circumstances we were forced to become Bel. This scenario did nothing to help Dag as a whole and only shows the bad decisions that are made by certain members of Dag leadership.

If that's actually true (and I'm not personally doubting your word), then it's another example of why censorship is all around a very bad idea, and one which I've always totally opposed. Still, Dominus, Graymael, and Guntar all seemed to believe that you were part of an established Bel group. Not saying that they were right, either, but that IF their evidence was valid, then the actions of the mods were perfectly understandable, given the current web forum policies on matters. Incidentally (and thank God for it!) there is a new web team taking over the Dag website. I don't know what their policies will be, though, but hopefully they'll be more open to more topics.

P.S. Just because I am happy to see new blood taking over that hopefully will hold fewer ancient grudges does not mean that I do not appreciate the actions of those who have given Dag a place to talk on the web. They did the work, and I didn't, so I'm in no position to talk smack about them.

[Alunsun]

Alunsun, I can't read the post you linked because the link is broken. But, I will say, the internet is not the real-life representation of Dagorhir, or anything else for that matter.

Actually, in this case, it kind of is. Something similar happened here and there seems to be a pattern.

[MagnusofDregoth]

All I can say is, sit tight. There's a new web moderator (or moderators) working on a new web forum and site, and I think you will start to see, in our (sadly) most visible presentation to the world, that we're actually much more sane.

Needless to say, no one deserves to be treated badly or unfairly. But if you go into a situation expecting trouble, you'll probably find it.

[Dacian]

No. I won't respond in kind to untoward attacks.

I think the sports should reunified. Things should be worked out. Have said so for years, have tried to make it happen on many occasions. Unfortunately I have been unsuccessful.

I hold no hard feelings. I still like everyone in the DBGA (including Greymael and Dominus). Anyone who says reunification is not happening because of the old guard in Belegarth are being silly.

Stonehouse Park would love to host Ragnarok. The site is currently ready to handle 2500. We are upgrading to hold 20,000. The price would be much less than Spring Valley. The park is 80 miles north of the Rag site (so too far north is not a problem). The problem is that it is too far west (Illinois). I would hold it free the first year if it brought the sports together (saving $30,000 to $40,000 that Dagorhir would pay to Spring Valley).

The name of the park is Stonehouse Park (not Keggland) Keggland is a non-approved (by me) nickname for the park because I am primarily responsible for making it a reality. Yes. I am responsible for mortgages, insurance, employees, etc. No. I am not responsible for running all of the events that occur there (see SCA, Civil War, NERO, WWII, etc).

I just wanted to quote this huge olive branch.

some individuals may not like other individuals in different organizations, but my God, as I've told people on the field....

"good honor".

[edgethrop]

has that been sent to dagorhir. someobdy should send that as amass email to all the realm leaders in dag

[Derian]

I'm sure they're aware. Unfortunately, I doubt it'll happen.

That said, you can probably try if you'd like:

erekose@dagorhir.com
dominus@dagorhir.com
graymael@dagorhir.com

They're probably not the ones who are directly responsible, but they could at least point you in the right direction, I'd imagine.

[Spike]

I'm sure it would just be construed as an attempt to piggyback their success.

[Theros the Large]

Yea...

That selfish Kegg guy with all of his working on getting us a great park to fight in...

As for Belegrim being hostile at those past ragnaroks...

I don't think that most of us hold any ill will towards anyone in Dagorhir these days. You mentioned Hellhammer specifically. Don't take it personal, we are pretty much * to everyone...

[Rasheab]

I wasn't going to respond, because I came along after the fact (historically), but Kegg's post just made me want to respond. Good show man. That is awsome.

You can say all you want about competition between groups, but when you get down to it, it's hard to argue with the economics of free.

Dedric, I've always shrugged off the Dagorhir / Belegarth thing as a political event that happened in the past. No relevance to us in real life. Then I read this whole deal, and it left me and some of my realm mates with "*!?" Then we shrugged and went back to fighting. It will never affect our dealings with anyone from Dagorhir (why would it), unless someone shows up trashing Belegarth.

What I do know is that I've fought with several independent groups here in Washington, including just recently the local Amptgard group. And they have all been super cool, and haven't minded a bit that we let their folks know where we are located and when our practices are. When their members are in the area they fight with us, and when we are in their area we fight with them. We get more practice that way, and get a wider variety of opponents. "Competition" is BS, unless the practices are held on the same day, in the same area.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I e-mailed all three of them, Dom, Ere, and Grey with that quote from Kegg. I will let you all know what kind of response I get.

[Forkbeard]

That is so **** cool Soo.
Hahahahahahaahahahahaha!!
My freinds are the coolest *'s.
I really like what Rasheab said,"It's hard to argue with the economics of FREE"
FB

[Crynolyn]

The idea of a Dagorhir and Belegarth healing the split weeklong event gives me goosebumps !

And imagine what we could do with the extra $30,000 !!!

[edgethrop]

wow olive branch hath been extended. i wonder what the response will be.. and ya competion is alwys teher when u have 2 practices on the same day. but here in ohio everyones days are pretty much set and anybody that fights knows tehm and where the practices are at and we have like 4 groups within a hour of each other and like dagorhir groups fight with us al teh time. we harbor no ill will towards anybody.

[lenwe]

At the time of this happening we had no affiliation toward any group. We actually had more Dag fighters in the area then Bel. We did try to start a Dag chapter but due to those unfortunate circumstances we were forced to become Bel. This scenario did nothing to help Dag as a whole and only shows the bad decisions that are made by certain members of Dag leadership.

So I guess I'm the member in question that was being "recruited". I will admit that Physic in no way has ever requested I join his unit/chapter. He has only offered a place to fight since I was so far from any Dagorhir groups. He understands that I am part of a Dagorhir realm and will always be. I'll admit his banning on the forums was a misfortune, but I also have to admit there was no way for the admins at the forums to know his intentions beyond a doubt. In their eyes the forums rules were broken and they responded.

This entire deal is a weird mess that I generally avoid. As stated before, by many others, the only thing I hope for in the future is to always have a place to fight and maybe one day it will be under one organization.

[Obryn]

I thought I'd toss my two cents in, since I'm actually on the Bel site at the moment.

I was 'privileged' enough to have front-row seats for most of this crap, although for the life of me I can't remember many of the details. I was in charge of Wolfpack at this point, and for a while was talking with Dominus. (Who, by the way, is pretty decent over the phone and an ultimate * online, as evinced by that webpage. Really, it's an interpretation of events in the most paranoid fashion possible. To be frank, if I could name one main factor that, I think, has contributed to the prolonged estrangement, it's Dominus's [and to a lesser extent Greymael's] online personalities. Too much pundit, too much paranoia, too much lawyer, too much ego.)

Anyway, looking back at it through the lens of many years, I think the split was pretty simple. Dagorhir's board wanted to run it as a business; maybe someone saw some possibilities for profit, but maybe not. The groups who broke off to form Belegarth wanted to keep it more as a hobby, without all the closed, central control (which was, at least at the time, limited to the Aratari BoD; I don't know if this has changed.)

Anyway, there were a lot of troublesome clauses in the Charter that had a lot of crazy implications - such as turning over a club's treasury to Dagorhir if it ever stopped being a Dagorhir chapter. Additionally, there was a lot of stuff about IP, which is unsurprising considering the legal backgrounds of many of the Aratari. There was also legal wrangling over the rulebook itself, which Kegg rewrote - and from there, I learned a lot more about the concepts of copyright, process exceptions, and works for hire that I ever thought I would.

So, the game split. We out here didn't trust the BoD with the powers outlined in the Charter, and they didn't trust our good intentions. Nobody trusted anybody they didn't know personally, and that's basically that.

About the only thing I can really contribute here is that, right during the middle of the figurative storm, I happened to be in Tucson, AZ on business. I got a chance to go out to dinner with Bryan - Aratar - the guy who started Dagorhir back in the old days. We chatted a lot, emailed back and forth for a while, and that's part of what got the idea for a separate game of Belegarth started. Basically - don't fight over the name; just play the game (heck, use the same rules) and start your own group.

And that's basically that. It looks even sillier through the lens of history, but that's what you get when people rely on forum posts and rumors, rather than sitting down in person.

-O

[Enoch]

I had resolved to not get involved in this thread until I had a few beers in me and could read it all, so here goes...

There have been a lot of constructive posts in this thread and for that I'm thankful. For the most part I see the pre-split vets breaking down into three categories, those being "we're better of separate" "here's an olive branch" and "facepalm facepalm headdesk." All of these three reactions are equally valid in my opinion. I started fighting a little bit after the split around the same time as Varadin did, and what I hate seeing here is the "man, **** those guys" mentality from folks that came around after the fact. Yeah, there's been bad blood and it's happened from both sides, taking everything with a grain of salt the size of Manhattan, you'll get the basic idea.

I started fighting in a group (Rausumea) that was rather vehement about post-split politics and got rebuffed with the "we're not Dagorhir, we're Belegarth" sentiment. I've fought in groups on both sides of the fence and I've encountered ill will from each group, the group in Kent, OH that I'm working with now expressed some trepidation over going to the Avalon Thanksgiving Battle partly because they were worried about cross-group politics (the other part was that some of them were worried about new people getting beaten into the ground and not learning much, but I'm working on that.) Also, in fairness to the other side of the argument, I've been involved in "superfriends" battles and witnessed the * that Magnus is talking about, trust me, it's there. But, there are a lot of people who frankly, just want to fight and get better at all aspects of the sport/game/what have you.

I understand that a lot of newer folk seem to get caught up in post-split politics and want to be on the sidelines rooting for one group or the other, but really, that doesn't help anyone. Alunsun, I understand you've gotten burned recently in cross-game political BS but I can assure you that the problems you've had (while worth a complaint or two) don't hold a candle to problems that a lot of the pre-split vets have had over the years, including banning in internet or RL experiences. These people who went through it first-hand are showing a very level-headed approach and that's something we should all learn from.

While I think the question of the "real story" has been answered by a lot of the vets involved in that story, I'm leaving this open in case there are more constructive points to be made. But if all we have left to say here is to bicker about how the grass is greener on one side or the other, this thread is getting locked for excessive drama.

I'm going to implore all of you this winter to spend the time that we usually take re-hashing these pointless dogmas and do something more productive with your time. Spar with your friends, work on your garb, make a new set of armor, just take this time to grow whatever group you fight with and don't let a seven-year-old argument get in the way of your personal betterment.

[xiao]

it's the new hot young leaders like athron and mithris that are a shining beacon of hope for us to come together with dag

this guy (me) has been to the last 4 rags in a row and just hit a badon hill. there is a happy place at dagorhir events for belegarth fighters. if you're a douche bag rhino you will be treated as so just like a bel event.

belegarth does regularly attend dag events, the split is slowly healing on its own. i'm really liking this medicine too. super best friends HOOOOOO!! i predict 2 years for ragnarok to break 3k people.

[Magnus of the Red Hand]

If wishes were fishes...

In my opinion I think there are too many hurt feelings and too much time past for any sort of reconciliation back into a single group. Personally I think the basis off all this can be traced on both sides to three things: Power, Money & Ego.

I'm all for expanding the foam fighting world and the easing of animosity between our organizations. I'd love to see the folks in Dagohir quit looking down their nose at our organization because the problems between their leaders and Belegarths founders nearly 10 years ago and vice versa.

Our realm started just as the split was going down and the limited interaction we had at that time with the leaders of Dagohir (all via the internet) left such a poor impression that we became one of the first new realms in Belegarth.

Don't get me wrong, I've met tons of great people from Dagohir, but I think the chances of merging the two groups, this far removed, might be a bit too optimistic.

It would be great for foam fighting as a whole to have a dedicated location like Stonehouse Park for all event needs, large and small. Unfortunately I think that the leaders of Dagohir are going to interpret Keggs offer as nothing more than trying to piggyback onto and make money off of their organization. Tempers will flare, **** will be talked, peoples feelings will be hurt and we'll be right back where we are now.

That being said, I'd love to be wrong. Its a great opportunity and the more fighters the better. Enoch summed this up very eloquently.

I'm going to implore all of you this winter to spend the time that we usually take re-hashing these pointless dogmas and do something more productive with your time. Spar with your friends, work on your garb, make a new set of armor, just take this time to grow whatever group you fight with and don't let a seven-year-old argument get in the way of your personal betterment.

[MagnusofDregoth]

I will respond to my fellow Magnus's comment about why he and his chapter joined Belegarth:

Our realm started just as the split was going down and the limited interaction we had at that time with the leaders of Dagohir (all via the internet) left such a poor impression that we became one of the first new realms in Belegarth.

My realm started at just the same time, as it happens, and we got all of the same internet impressions from the Aratari that Magnus did. At one point, we discussed leaving the org. and starting "Dagor-there," which seemed like a very funny joke at the time. But, we stayed in Dagorhir because Kyrax, former Aratari president and member of Graymael's unit, had been helping us out with starting our realm, learning the rules, making weapons, and running battles. We had received nothing but a good impression from him in real life, and moreover, when a friend and I went down to the Aratari Mayhem event and met all these "larger than life" guys we'd only heard about on the boards--talking about Dominus, Graymael, and Erekose--they were very friendly and happy to meet us.

Now, I'm sure that the reaction would have been largely the same if we'd gone to, say, Armageddon I, at least I like to think that it would have been. But, the simple fact is, the internet is a horrible venue to express oneself, and misunderstandings, hurt feelings, schisms, etc etc are inevitable. The **** that goes down on, to use an example Graymael cited, hamster-raising forums is ridiculous. And what could they possibly be arguing about?

Here's a paraphrase of what Graymael told me in person about Belegarth: "The best thing for Dagorhir and for Belegarth is for Dagorhir and Belegarth to be the best Dagorhir and Belegarth they can be, not to insult the other group in the hopes that their group will benefit. No one will benefit from that. Even though we're separate, that doesn't mean we are enemies, nor that we have to actively undermine the other group in order to secure our own group's future." Here's something (paraphrased again, but a little more recent) that Dominus said to someone who mentioned "I usually fight with another Illinois-based group, I think you know what I mean, but don't hold that against me!" He said (if I recall correctly, something to the effect of) "That doesn't really matter, why would I hold that against you? You're here fighting me, so that means we have too much in common to * about unimportant stuff. You just want to fight with foam weapons, right, not argue about stuff in the past. We don't even need to be having this conversation."

But, now to see what happens when you enter....the Internet Zone. Soo, I would be interested if you would forward me any replies you get (my e-mail is in my profile, or just PM it).

[Rocca]

the internet is a horrible venue to express oneself, and misunderstandings, hurt feelings, schisms, etc etc are inevitable.

But we're having a very civil and I think productive conversation on this thread right now are we not? The internet does not cause misunderstandings, people not editing themselves and letting their baser feelings out due to the anonymity do.

That said, I'm glad the web presence at Dag is changing, being out west its really the only interaction that I have with Dag. I would love to have more a positive experience.

Also, I second the Stonehouse park idea . . . It may even be worth getting all the way out there on my horrible budget . . .

[Arrakis]

Remember, some large percentage of meaning is communicated in non-verbal format; some have said up to 80%. That means an internet discussion will inevitably have some breakdowns and misunderstanding, especially accounting for interpretations based on perceived hostility.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I will post when I get a reply, I wont post that reply in public forums, but I would be happy to pass that info on in private, at least at this time. I am not really sure what their reaction will be. I will know more when I hear from them.

[Blackhawk]

WOW!!! just WOW!!! It took me way to long to read this whole thread but I felt that if I was going to post. I should. First, I am amazed at how many of you folks I have met, or talked to. I don't speak for Dag but I can say that I do know a great many of them. A question came up that I would like to address:

What do those Dag folks think of us?
Most think of you as the group with very similar rules, period. I think that it seems as though there is animosity from some of us cause when we post the name it comes out like this *********. I know, kind of offputting aint it? I can tell you that if I ended up in an area that was heavy in Bel and light in Dag, I would be at your events trying to kick your *. Fully expecting you to do the same to me. Then again I am a Dag "stick jock" (I don't know what the Bel term for that is). I just want to fight and drink with people as crazy as me, you folks fit the bill.
As far as reunification, I would be for it but I don't hold much hope that it would actually happen.

[Spyn]

Well after 3 pages i figured i would chime in on the discussion. I have played many foam fighting games all across the US. I love amtgard for the technical expertise i have gleaned from it. I like bel/dag for the more physical combat. Most people i met in either game thought down upon amtgarders from all the east coast fighting they had seen. Metioning i played amtgard recieved a sneer from most people i met. But over all i got a more open minded reception from belegarth players. I have been a member of the dag boards for about 5 years. Trying to get contact info or contact people is **** way harder than it should be. There was a group in Katy that i tried to get info on, to be able to contact them though the board admins...I ended up emailing random people to see if they knew the guys email addy. I never recieved a reply from the boards as a known amtgard player. It took two months of my time to contact some one close to me playing dag. AT rag i recieved a less than welcome feeling from most people with exceptions.You know the whole people not from my unit must shrug like whores attitude everyone seemed to have. Belegarth was much more open and friendly to me as a whole. Given my experiance i tell people to play belegarth if only because they promote foam fighting not only thier game. When Dag learns it about foam fighting versus the dag only mentality they will recieve more crossover players and the sport as a whole will grow.


Spyn

[Soo Ma Tai]

Blackhawk nice to see you posted here. I think, having read what some Dag folks had to say on this, including yourself, that there is real potential here. if nothing else to have one really great Rag an opportunity for in person talks.

[Big King Jimmy]

I think that it seems as though there is animosity from some of us cause when we post the name it comes out like this *********. I know, kind of offputting aint it?

I don't understand, are you trying to say Dagorhir is in our word filter? Because if so even without it on I doubt it. Also note that the word filter can be turned off in your profile menu.

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk nice to see you posted here. I think, having read what some Dag folks had to say on this, including yourself, that there is real potential here. if nothing else to have one really great Rag an opportunity for in person talks.

Yea, I haven't spent much time on these boards nor have I been to a Bel event. Although every time I meet one of you Bel guys/girls at a Dag event. I get begged to come to an event. If I didn't live in such a Dag rich environment I would. I do look every so often to see if you have one near me but alas, that hasn't happened yet. I was shocked when I looked at your most recent posts and caught a glimpse of myself falling out of a tree in 1982.
I just figured I would find out what all the hubub was about. Seems very similar to Dag. Some bad apples on both boards. I guess that is to be expected.

No Big Jimmy that is how it comes out on the Dag boards.

[Dedric]

Blackhawk, good to see you here! *, everywhere I go, you hunt me down... Just make sure one of us has alcohol first.

As far as general attitudes go, pretty much every fighter I've spoken to was of the opinion that the game and the people are the same in both games. Many of them attend the other's events. The only "bad blood" I've seen has been from a VERY few Old Guard Dag, and almost all of that online. Just wanted to mention that, since in my original post, I mentioned that some Dag fighters consider Bel to be comprised of d-bags, and clarify, that this is probably less than 1% of the fighters out there. A VERY small handful. And that even then, in person they are usually much more friendly about the subject, and much less arrogant.

[Akbar the Foul]

* and repost

[sponge]

Do it for the children!
I've never had anything but positive interactions with both groups. As an Amtgard-playing outsider, I really hope this goes forward on the positive. I too can't really tell any difference between Bel or Dag and would make every attempt to hit at least one or two Bel/Dag week-longs a year.

[Kegg]

Wow. Just saw the thread over on the Dagorhir board (Olive Branch). Since I obviously can't answer anything there, let's try it here.

1.) I don't speak for Belegarth. What I posted above was my opinion on what should occur. The reason I have never been or never will be a Belegarth officer or on the BOD was that I made a promise before the split (while still in Dagorhir) that I would never hold a national office in a not for profit medieval organization (SCA, Belegarth, Dagorhir). There was a fear at the time that I wanted to take over.

2.) Belegarth boards don't censor what you say if they are not flaming personal attacks or something illegal (warez, copyrighted materials or seriously NSFW). The usual result of flame wars is locking of threads.

3.) Dagorhir does not make much if anything from running Ragnarok. The cost of running events is massive. The price is usually set so the event breaks even. From my understanding, the cost for Spring Valley is the biggest part of the cost. The DBGA knows what Spring Valley costs. I expect it is more than $30,000.

4.) To all that say, why now? I have attempted to bring the groups together since the split. It has caused close friends of mine amongst the Aratari severe grief in trying to facilitate this. It is not something new, just took the opportunity of Dedric's post to try again.

5.) And yes... horror. I own a business that makes medieval gear for the past 9 years and now I have another business (a campground) that is attempting to make the best re-enactor facility in the USA which includes -Commercial kitchen facilities
-Cabins
-Historic buildings including large indoor meeting and dining areas.
-16 showers (8 men, 8 women), 28 flush toilet/sink facilities scattered around the site.
-Perfectly level fighting fields that will hold 5000-10000 combatants.
-Parking for the same
-Site specifically designed for re-enacting.
-Swimming lakes and river
- Being one hour from O'Hare with shuttle service to the park.

Obviously it is not much of a business plan, to expect the DBGA whose semi-official policy is that I am the anti-Christ , will move their premiere event to a facility that I own. With that said the site is being designed from the ground up to be the ideal location for an event like Ragnarok. I and Stonehouse Park would very much like to have y'all come and visit. And the offer stands. No charge the first year, significantly less per person than Spring Valley in the following years.

6.) My goal is to make sword fighting bigger than paintball. Always has been, always will be. I think it is silly that Belegarth and Dagorhir can't come to some understanding. For those that question my motivations, there it is. Growing the sport we all love.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Thanks for posting that Kegg, you know, after I sent those e-mails out I thought twice about it. I am glad you aren't upset about it. I know I kinda overstepped my bounds a bit there, but I do hope it allows for the opportunity to at least discuss unification, or even supporting each other, in person. IF not, I think it will be thier loss. Stonehouse park is a great site, regardless of the results of "peace talks", it would be a great place to hold Rag.

[Cib]

Ok, I don't know if it has been posted, but there is a thread on the dag board in responce to this... http://www.dagorhir.com/cgi-bin/ultimat ... 7&t=003918

Now I will go back and read MASIV amount of posts.

[Winfang]

While Kegg's offer is a wonderful gesture and could attempt to unify the two games, it wouldn't be accept by Dagorhir for a few logical reasons.

1) Kegg already admitted that the site is 400+ miles away from the current Ragnarok site. The majority of the attendance of Ragnarok come from areas East Coast and the South and the drive to IL would tack on significant travel which would cause a drop in attendance.
2) The cost of Ragnarok has yet to slow or hurt attendance as it keeps growing year to year.
3) While the cost of running Ragnarok is large, it is not losing money.

Belegarth needs quit focusing on reuniting and focus on creating better events for it's own population. Oktoberfest is our largest event and it's number are less then half of Ragnarok's and it's growth is minimal.

[Soo Ma Tai]

i wasn't posted but yes, we knew about it. Thanks though Cib.

[Derian]

I like how there are about 10 posts arguing how draconian our ToS is because of the social networking side of things.

For any Dagorhir members that read this, ignore anything on www.belegarth.com. That is a separate part of the site with separate rules. If your URL says board.belegarth.com, the only rules you have to abide by are these: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26039

[Soo Ma Tai]

Honestly, I think Winfang hit the nail on the head. I don't think a reunification will happen, at least not any time soon. I do, however, feel that a more open line of communication between our two groups could benefit both groups greatly. I also think that though the site is a bit farther away, like 5-6 hours, it would actually improve their attendance, I could be way off base though.

[Winfang]

If you talk to anyone in Dagorhir about what caused the numbers of Ragnarok to jump from 300 to 1000 in a few years they're going to attribute it largely to the campaigning blitz done in conjunction with the Lord of the Rings movies. Those movies where a culture changing event that Dagorhir recognized and used to their benefit. All of it was done in people's spare time using a very limited budget. Imagined if it was financed with trained professional tackling the marketing!

As for an open line of communication, there is one and it's never been closed. While I was an officer I had conversations with several DBGA officers and local Dagorhir leaders, never on a official level but as friends. We had a mutual respect for each other. We've influence their rules and visa-versa. Each group's events are attended by die-hards from the other group.