The real story...

[Dedric]

I've been playing Dagorhir for almost two years now. Occasionally someone mentions Belegarth. Sometimes the attitude is that it's just Dagorhir under another name, a lot of people don't care, and of course there's the opinion that they're all d-bags.

So I did my own research, asked around, read Dominus's side of the story, etc. The real kicker is, nowhere could I find Belegarth's side of the story. I know this is going to be a sore spot for some that they would much prefer wasn't brought up, but I feel that if I'm going to attend/recommend Belegarth events, especially after reading what Dominus said (which is pretty damning), I'd like to find out what the Belegarth side is.

So, what's the Belegarth side of the Dagorhir/Belegarth split? (If you have something to say you don't want to post on the boards, feel free to PM or e-mail me.)

[debuenzo]

come to a belegarth event and find out for yourself!

[Arrakis]

The real story is that no matter what happened back in the day, now, in 2008, who is it that slanders the other sport, refuses to allow people to type its name on their board, and bans people for mentioning it, even if it's to help someone find a nearby place to fight or to advertise an event so everyone gets to fight more?

Dagorhir.

It's not every Dagorhirrim that's the problem, it's that the leaders run things with an iron fist and refuse to let bygones be bygones and help everyone have fun. Consider Bel the open-source democratic version of Dagorhir's DRM-ed autocracy.

[Dedric]

I agree from an individual standpoint - we're all friends, and often participate in various games with similar rules together. I also find the attitudes of some of the people who are running the Dag forum to be very much less than helpful in this matter. But I don't think they really represent the whole of Dagorhir, or the Rag War Council. However, I'm not going to find out what happened just from coming to a Belegarth event, unless I get very lucky and talk to just the right person.

As far as Belegarth being democratic and Dagorhir not, the RWC makes all the Dag decisions I know of, and that's two delegates from every realm, which seems very democratic to me. I might personally prefer to give each individual a vote, but this way ensures that every group gets their say, that everyone can be represented, and that everyone who is voting actually gets the full story on what is being voted on and why.

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

As far as Belegarth being democratic and Dagorhir not, the RWC makes all the Dag decisions I know of, and that's two delegates from every realm, which seems very democratic to me. I might personally prefer to give each individual a vote, but this way ensures that every group gets their say, that everyone can be represented, and that everyone who is voting actually gets the full story on what is being voted on and why.

He didn't mean that Dag doesn't have a democratic process, he meant that Bel is the Democrat (notice the capitalization) to Dag's Republican, a la political parties and their "stances" on issues.

Honestly, why do you want to know? Or care to know? How is knowing going to change how/why you play? Why not just leave the dirt under the rug and have a fun time, either at Dag events, Bel events, or both. Work towards re-uniting the two, if you must. Not by digging up old news, but by volunteering, attending both groups events, and working towards making foam-fighting as a whole better/more fun.

Nothing you can say/think/do will affect the involved individuals mindsets, it hasn't changed in nearly 10 years. And while they stay in power, the current situation will not change.

Move on and work towards a fun, foam-filled future.

[Mercer]

It's slightly less democratic due to the whole "stay on the good side of the board (aka Aratari)" clause in the contract, but overall, pretty similar. Beyond that, agreed with Brenna.

[Winfang]

Put as simply and objectively as is possible, in an effort to protect their service mark on the name Dagorhir and all related intellectual property (IP; such as the original Dagorhir Handbook), the Dagorhir Board of Directors (BoD) requested that any group wishing to continue to use the Dagorhir SM and IP sign a legally binding contract regarding their use. The former Dagorhir groups that chose not to sign this contract, for whatever reason(s), instead formed a new game known as Belegarth.

It would be very difficult, unpleasant, and ultimately counter-productive to attempt a detailed description of the events that lead to the separation of Belegarth from Dagorhir. In simplest terms, it was largely caused miscommunication and mistrust among the leadership of both groups, which was made far worse by heavy reliance on bulletin boards and emails to discuss issues that should have been discussed over the phone, if not in person. Ultimately, both groups did what they thought was best for their game at the time, and in the end went their separate ways.

[Arkin]

Put as simply and objectively as is possible, in an effort to protect their service mark on the name Dagorhir and all related intellectual property (IP; such as the original Dagorhir Handbook), the Dagorhir Board of Directors (BoD) requested that any group wishing to continue to use the Dagorhir SM and IP sign a legally binding contract regarding their use. The former Dagorhir groups that chose not to sign this contract, for whatever reason(s), instead formed a new game known as Belegarth.

It would be very difficult, unpleasant, and ultimately counter-productive to attempt a detailed description of the events that lead to the separation of Belegarth from Dagorhir. In simplest terms, it was largely caused miscommunication and mistrust among the leadership of both groups, which was made far worse by heavy reliance on bulletin boards and emails to discuss issues that should have been discussed over the phone, if not in person. Ultimately, both groups did what they thought was best for their game at the time, and in the end went their separate ways.

Thats a great and nice way to put it winfang. You get a gold star.

[MagnusofDregoth]

Graymael has told me repeatedly that Winfang has the most even-handed and accurate impression of the situation, so I defer to him.

Let me just say, however, that the "don't like Belegarth" crew represents a very small percentage of Dagorhir (perhaps even smaller than the "don't like Dagorhir" crew in Belegarth) and many of those people have never even met a Belegarth fighter, been to a Belegarth event, or even heard anything about Belegarth that didn't come from Dominus or Erekose. The only thing many of us don't like about Belegarth, really, is the fact that its existence as a separate organization means we don't get to fight with you all more often.

[Sorcia]

I was one of the originators of Belegarth. I ran Armageddon 1 with Malcar and the realm of Wolfpack. I was at all of the War Council meetings that led up to the split.

That said, I go to Dagorhir events and always accept Dagorhirim at Belegarth events without question or bias. We should at the very least allow each other to live in peace and allow for the inevitable crossover that will occur. It has been so long since things went so very wrong that we need to just let it go. And for me to say it should mean a whole lot.

Winfang, kudos.

[Arrakis]

Amen. I only said what I said because I hate watching Belegrim be so welcoming on the Bel boards and then seeing Belegarth denigrated on the Dag boards. It's true that the boards of either sport don't represent the populace of each sport, but it's an important public front for each sport.

Anyway, well said, Sorcia and Winfang.

Long live full-contact foamfighting!

[bangor]

It's kinda like the Serbians and Croatians, the Czechs and the Slovaks, or Farm and Fleet and Fleet Farm. Whichever way you slice it, you both look silly from the outside. Two identical twins intent on making themselves as 'different' as possible from each other, when they should be embracing one another.

There is no discernible difference between your sports from the perspective of an Amtgarder. Many haven't heard of either of you, or have never tried crossover and have no idea what to think. I welcome the relatively rougher style of play, but not the petty politics played out on the interwebs.

[Derian]

It's only a feud (if there even is a feud anymore) between Dagorhir's BoD and Belegarth's old guard. I honestly think that almost everyone on the Belegarth side is ready to drop it, but I know for a fact that the current Belegarth Board of Directors (being on it), as well as most of the WC thinks it's dumb.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I agree with Derian, and as a member of the WC, I think it's dumb.

[Wisp]

So why doesn't Belegarth go back into the fold and re-unify? Or are there attempts at this already underway? Seems the game would benefit by being one larger organization.

Will

[Angmarth]

There are a great many individuals who are "banned for life" or something equally ridiculous for things that really should be forgotten at this point. Our groups like the method of government we have chosen, and to many it would be going backwards instead of forwards. There are a few sports (NBA and ABA, NFL and AFL, NL and AL) related examples of how reunification could occur, but some concessions would have to be made from the Dagorhir side. I can say with relative certainty that the Belegarth side could come to an agreement on it.

The basic reason for the split was a disagreement on how government should be done. Similarities could be drawn (IMHO) to the United States and Great Britain circa Revolutionary War.

[Derian]

Truth

The games have seperated enough by this point rules-wise and government-wise that I don't think a reunification will happen, simply because both sides would have to make large concessions that probably won't happen.

[Kyrax]

There are a great many individuals who are "banned for life" or something equally ridiculous for things that really should be forgotten at this point...

First - I like Winfang's write-up too. Simple, to the point and clear.

That is simply not true Angmarth, and you should know better. 1 person, Sir Kegg, has been barred from attending Ragnarok and wouldn't be welcome by the DBGA board to other events (but I doubt that local organizers to most events would care). 1 other person, Fay of Pentwyvern, has not been welcome at Spring Valley Campground by the now former owners due to threatening to sue them in the aftermath of Ragnarok 16 (or was it 17?). The new owner might not care. Nobody else is banned or barred from anything, 'cept maybe has lost their privileges to post on the Dagorhir Boards for breaking the rules of the board and/or being perceived as a shill for Belegarth or Edhellen armory.

DBGA's reasons for banning Kegg are pretty simple - it cost them thousands of dollars in legal fees to protect the Dagorhir copyright (in effect since the 70's) and the service mark from appropriation. Even after the split, misuse of those things by Belegarth as an organization, by individual realms or webmasters, etc. cost further piles of money. And the people who had to spend that money on legal bills are still largely in control of DBGA and the periodic issues that come from friction with Belegarth or Belegrim are fresh in their minds.

The irony of course is that Edhellen weapons are used widely in Dagorhir and sold at events. So while a principal of that firm is banned at Ragnarok, his weapons aren't.

I personally balk at the "Democrat vs Republican" analogy to Belegarth/Dagorhir. Local chapters and realms run as they run in both groups without much if any outside involvement. Big events run the same way, with the groups who attend organizing things collectively. The major difference is Belegarth's online voting system to work out rules tweaks (and they are tweaks) while Dagorhir does the same through the Ragnarok War Council. B's system is better for farflung groups, but since all either are doing is tweaking a pretty stable rules set, so what?

Given time things could come back together - and as Bangor points out, it would make sense. The rules are pretty much the same, as written. I understand that there are interpretation issues, but have been amused at how similar they are still. Sure in one game you can grapple while armored, but you can't grapple an archer, the other the opposite. But outside of isolated or edge cases, one can walk from one field to the other without changing much.

[Peregrine]

So why doesn't Belegarth go back into the fold and re-unify? Or are there attempts at this already underway? Seems the game would benefit by being one larger organization.

Will

I for one have no interest in going back under the fold or re-unify. there is plenty of cross over, so why put ourselves under the rule of Aratari. No dag person is banned from Belegarth, that I know of. those who want to Dag events may, we even let them advertise there events and realms on our boards.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I personally balk at the "Democrat vs Republican" analogy to Belegarth/Dagorhir. Local chapters and realms run as they run in both groups without much if any outside involvement. Big events run the same way, with the groups who attend organizing things collectively. The major difference is Belegarth's online voting system to work out rules tweaks (and they are tweaks) while Dagorhir does the same through the Ragnarok War Council. B's system is better for farflung groups, but since all either are doing is tweaking a pretty stable rules set, so what?

This is the exact reason why we stopped being a Dag realm and joined Bel. The online voting allows for all realms to participate in the creation and maintainance of the game, not just the ones who can afford to make it to a special once a year event. We do a lot more than just tweeking rules in OL WC, we also choose our leadership and the direction of the sport, which is pretty hard to do in a couple of hours at an event. Also the fact that once we applied for voting rights with Bele, we were told by the Dag powers that be, that if we became a voting member of Bel they would sue us, so we quit Dag.

Given time things could come back together - and as Bangor points out, it would make sense. The rules are pretty much the same, as written. I understand that there are interpretation issues, but have been amused at how similar they are still. Sure in one game you can grapple while armored, but you can't grapple an archer, the other the opposite. But outside of isolated or edge cases, one can walk from one field to the other without changing much.

I seriously doubt it Kyrax, I don't think any Bel realm would sign a Dag charter to be nothing but Dag. Many realms crossover into other games, and Dag isn't cool with that, at least not if you tell anyone about it. From a realm standpoint, having been both a Dag realm and a Bel realm since the split, I find that the Belegarth organization is much more accepting than the Dag organization. This is not to be carried over to the individual fighters, who I find are pretty cool no matter what group they belong to.

[Arrakis]

**** it. Nevermind. Everyone should forget about this ignorance and go sword fight.

[Juicer]

...I like to sword fight.

[Big King Jimmy]

There are more differences than either side cares to admit, I think, with the type of person each draws. Each year Belegarth moves more and more towards becoming a sport (to the cheer of some and the dismay of others) while Dag has much more role playing. I don't know if it's that we're better at martial training, we are more competitive, or that we focus more on combat, but your average Belegarth fighter is almost universally better than you average Dag fighter. And if you want I could quote people in Dag who say the same thing.

I think we'd never come back together, because almost no Belegarth realm will sign a contract to play our game or their game.

[Wisp]

Ok side question here since I'm still learning...

The rule sets for both organizations are only "law" for specific events. Each realm can have what ever rules in effect that they like in their home park. Is this correct?

Interesting thread.

Will

EDITED: PS... yes, I totally agree that Dag's forum boards are GAY. I have attended a few Dag and Bel events so far, and I couldn't honestly tell the difference between the two. I do enjoy both and find it both confusing and annoying that there is this split.

[Derian]

The rule sets for both organizations are only "law" for specific events. Each realm can have what ever rules in effect that they like in their home park. Is this correct?

Yes. Each realm is free to do whatever they want.

The Book of War, as written, is only 'law' at national events, which at this time are Chaos War and Armageddon. Every other event, the hosting realm is free to use whatever rules they wish, though I can't think of any event that isn't very minor that uses anything other than the official rules.

[Angmarth]

That is correct. Each group is allowed to do whatever it wants to in variation of the rules. Most groups do not vary too much (if at all), with more extreme versions of variety in a few groups.

Arnor is one of the groups with more variation than most. Our variations are rules that we would like to see changed or altered, and the one way to do that is change them yourself and then show them to the rest of the Bel world. You have more clout when you say "We've been playing this way for 3 years" rather than saying "Well this seems like a good theory".

[Angmarth]

In response to Kyrax, I know that Kegg is banned as I believe is MaDog. There really isn't a reason for it anymore, but I'm guessing that you know it isn't going to change until (unlike Belegarth where we VOTE on things) a small minority let it go.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the governmental structure for all of Dagorhir?

[Soo Ma Tai]

Dag has a BoD and a WC just like us, the difference is that Belegarth does WC openly through the internet, where anyone can read and post on any of the topics up for discussion. All voting is done online as well. Dag chooses to hold their WC once per year at Ragnarok, a week long fighting event. If for some reason you or another representative from your realm can't get to Rag, you get no vote or say in what happens with the game. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Dag is trying to be secretive, just that's how they are, and have, been running WC for many years. IMO, they need to catch up with the times, that would help them a lot and allow for more far flung groups like mine was feel more like part of the community.

[Derian]

Also, I believe the Aratari BoD has ultimate control in that they could technically dissolve the WC or something silly like that. I'm not saying it will ever happen, just that it's a possibility.

Belegarth's bylaws explicitly state that the BoD can essentially not do that. The only way that could happen with Belegarth's WC is through a seconded motion that receives a majority vote.

[Outhro Youkker]

I like to fight

I would rather have both still standing where all events are organized by one of the other side and it wil be something different to go to.
I am planning for Springwars and Ocfest with Bele, and Rag with Dag.
and if anything comes up that I can go to, then I will go to that event.

It would be nice for both sides to come together and duke it out in a massive brawl, like how all events should be, but there will not be peace as long as one complains about the other. If there ever becomes peace and the groups rejoin, I dont want 2 cousels overlaping into eachothers already set events..

For now:
Keep Bele organizing Armagedon, Springwars, etc.
Keep Dag organizing Ragnarok, Badon Hill, etc.

This is balanced, I would rather leave it like that.

[Wisp]

Arnor is one of the groups with more variation than most. Our variations are rules that we would like to see changed or altered, and the one way to do that is change them yourself and then show them to the rest of the Bel world. You have more clout when you say "We've been playing this way for 3 years" rather than saying "Well this seems like a good theory".

So far, after going to several Arnor regular meeting days, I like the house rules I've seen there. The stab and limb loss house rules there are more familiar to me and I feel make for a more fluid game.

The reason I asked was to get clarification on how "to the letter" the rules set had to be for local events. I'd like to do a Knoblander style event using Belegarth rules but that would of course require some tweaking to support the missions.

Will

[Arrakis]

Wisp: Variety is AWESOME. Please go for it and invite EVERYONE.

[Angmarth]

You can tweak the rules however you like Wisp, especially for scenario style battles. Having played in a Knoblander a long time ago, I can say that you would definitely benefit from altering things a bit to fit whatever needs you would have.

[varadin]

There are more differences than either side cares to admit, I think, with the type of person each draws. Each year Belegarth moves more and more towards becoming a sport (to the cheer of some and the dismay of others) while Dag has much more role playing.

Not so true while more of the known names in both might be known for either its quite blurred with the newer guys. You cant say that the horde dont have a good time being crazy and you cant say guys like the flower patch boys dont take this as a sport.

Ive always cared about the split because i started right as it happened(and mostly in my kingdom). I watched my kingdom dwindle to almost nothing because of the drama it caused. Really it doesnt matter why it happened both sides wanted to help the game both took it the wrong way and both did bad things afterwards.

The only real difference now is the belegarth is highly out west and Dag is east. I think of it more like the two leagues of baseball. Its all the same tiny changes here and there.

Anyone who preaches pro dag or pro bele i just walk away from now and go hit the people who dont care with a stick.

[Forkbeard]

I can't see any REAL differences between our two games.
I've always thought the split was retarded.
I joined just as it happened and I went with Bel because that's where everyone else within 10 hours of me went. I wanna fight SOMEBODY after all. There ain't enough fighters in the west so as it is.
I'm pretty sure that everyone in the west would go back to Dag or join a new organisation that ended the split. They all just want to fight also.
They wont just give up and sign the Dag charter and give the Dag WC( and thereby the Aratari) control, so Dag wont go for it. It has been said to me by many people from around the country that Dominus and his guys only want it their way with no compromise.
So it is as it is.
FB

[Kyrax]

In response to Kyrax, I know that Kegg is banned as I believe is MaDog.

Yes Angmarth, Kegg is banned. I said that, along with the explanation as to why. Didn’t say that I agreed with it, I’m just providing the other side of that story. But no, Madog has not been banned, nor anyone else (other than Fey from that one event due to the former campground owners). I see Madog at most every Ragnarok I attend.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the governmental structure for all of Dagorhir?

There isn’t any – other than the chapter contract, for the right to use the name and IP of Dagorhir, there is no governing structure. Ragnarok WC takes care of Ragnarok, nothing else. So if you want to analogize the games to political systems, Belegarth is a republic and Dagorhir more of an anarchic collective.

Given time things could come back together - and as Bangor points out, it would make sense. The rules are pretty much the same, as written. I understand that there are interpretation issues, but have been amused at how similar they are still. Sure in one game you can grapple while armored, but you can't grapple an archer, the other the opposite. But outside of isolated or edge cases, one can walk from one field to the other without changing much.

I seriously doubt it Kyrax, I don't think any Bel realm would sign a Dag charter to be nothing but Dag. Many realms crossover into other games, and Dag isn't cool with that, at least not if you tell anyone about it. From a realm standpoint, having been both a Dag realm and a Bel realm since the split, I find that the Belegarth organization is much more accepting than the Dag organization. This is not to be carried over to the individual fighters, who I find are pretty cool no matter what group they belong to.

Soo, my point was mainly about the similarity of the rules (which an earlier post seemed to think had diverged). One can take one’s Belegarth equipment or Dagorhir equipment and cross over to the other game without much adjustment, for the stuff or the rules. So if the interpersonal issues could be resolved or gotten past, and the organizational ones figured out, there would be little adjustment needed for rules differences (to a point). And no, I’m not holding my breath…

I can't see any REAL differences between our two games.
I've always thought the split was retarded.

Can’t argue with either point Forkbeard, and I watched the split happen at close range.

[Angmarth]

I was under the impression that MaDog was asked not to come to Rag this year, but I could be mistaken.

I don't buy the "Dag is an anarchic collective statement". It just doesn't make sense to me. If it was an anarchic collective then there wouldn't be any government at all, unless my definition of the term is way off. As it stands, there is a strong central government... The Aratari BoD. This has been my main issue with it since the beginning. In order to be an official Dag group you have to sign a legally binding contract. That seems a bit dictatorial to me. Unless I'm mistaken (and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) you can't run for the ABoD without being in the Aratari. Which means you really can't have a say in how Dag is run, because the ABoD supersedes anything that might be decided at RWC (which only makes decisions about Rag not Dag).

No matter how you slice it, the same kind of pie is there. The official government seems to be an oligarchy to me.

PS - I agree with you on the Bel being a republic.
PPS - I also agree with Fork that I just want to whack people.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Ragnarok WC takes care of Ragnarok, nothing else.

OK, then who changes the rules of the game. As far as I have ever been told and experienced, that was RWC.


let's see, if it's only Rag they control then what is this quoted from the Dag contract.."4. Follow the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, without deletion or alteration, for all events. Chapters may add rules in addition to those in the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, as long as they do not decrease the safety of the fighting or over-rule the basic tenets of the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System." sounds rather controlling to me....as does this, since it's required.."5. Elect officers through fair and equitable means. At a minimum, these officers shall be the Administrator, Administrative Assistant, and Book Keeper. More positions may be created and staffed as the needs of the Chapter dictate."

Then there's this part, which I liked the least...."Dagorhir Chapters must promote themselves exclusively as Dagorhir organizations; that is, their website and all published material must show the Chapter to be exclusively a Dagorhir group and not a member of any other organization, regardless of members’ participation in other activities."

Here's is the great benefits you get from signing the chapter contract and being bound to be Dag only etc..

DBGA will:
1. Grant permission for the Chapter to use the Dagorhir name and Dagorhir Gaming Rules System in perpetuity so long as the Chapter does not violate the terms of this contract. (we get this from Belegarth.)
2. Grant limited permission for the Chapter to reproduce Dagorhir-related copyrighted material under the Doctrine of Fair Use, including but not limited to: the Dagorhir Rules, Dagorhir Handbook, Dagorhir History, Dagorhir photographs, etc. “Fair Use” is defined as being for non-profit purposes of membership instruction and/or recruiting. (hmm...we get this from Belegarth)
3. Assist the Chapter in advertising and recruitment through such reasonable means as the http://www.dagorhir.com web site, web links, referrals, national advertising efforts, and other such means as mutually agreed upon by the Chapter and DBGA.(wow....again, we get this from Belegarth.)

So Dag gives nothing Bel does, except for a bunch of restrictions. Also if RWC doesn't make any changes except for to Rag stuff then it's the BoD who make all other decisions regaurding the game. Sounds a lot like a dictatorship to me, sorry Bro. I like you a lot Kyrax, but I really feel you are wrong here. I have read how Dominus claims that Dag is all free and we are the idiots who let Kegg rule over us. To bad Kegg isn't even on the BoD or a chapter leader. Dag are the ones who can dissolve a group, etc, Not belegarth.

HERE you can read all about what Dominus thinks about us.


And yes, I just want to hit people, which is why we cancelled our Dag contract, and joined Belegarth, cuase I want to hit people without interference from people who don't even know me.

[Arrakis]

Interestingly:

Grant permission for the Chapter to use the ... Dagorhir Gaming Rules System

Under US Copyright law, you CAN NOT copyright a system of rules for a game. That's why stuff like the d20 system can't be copyrighted, only the proprietary "flavor"-type information. It's just not possible. So...

Also, Re: Point Two: Fair Use is Fair Use as defined by US Copyright law, again, and can't be restricted, ever for any reason, at all (unless the DMCA says otherwise... but not really even then). So, yeah...



Dear GOD. I just clicked that link Soo Ma Tai posted. Christ on a cracker, that's a lot of misinformation. I mean, I don't even know where to start. So much hostility! "OMG Bel is so evil and all they do is diss Dag and we don't diss Bel we just make it illegal to talk about Bel on out boards and consider any group that wants to officially affiliate with both groups to be in breach of contract..."

Siiiigh.

[Ryker]

Also if RWC doesn't make any changes except for to Rag stuff then it's the BoD who make all other decisions regaurding the game.

Like what? What decisions are they making? What grand evil plan do they have?

Bel seems to have more restrictions (having to petition for speaking rights and THEN for voting rights) where the Dag chapters just have to show up to Rag.

You guys seem to make more out of the contract thing then there really is. Other than protecting the Dagorhir (c) name from abuse....what else is there that is "evil" within in?

And the bit about only promoting Dagorhir....ya....why wouldn't they want to protect the time, money and effort they put in promoting their own game? Why would they want someone else to get free advertisment? Plus...I do imagine this part was put in specifically after the split, when moods were dark and angry.

I'm WAAAYYYYY out West and couldn't give a rats * about the politics...but you guys seem way over the top afraid of this contract....for no good reason. I've been told over and over again from the Dag vets...you run your Chapter your way...we'll run our Chapter our way...and when we get together at a National event, we'll use the the Ruleset decided by the RWC. Coming from a guy who plays in the SCA (land of the over the top bureaucracy) Dag has almost no Govt to speak of.

[Big King Jimmy]

And the bit about only promoting Dagorhir....ya....why wouldn't they want to protect the time, money and effort they put in promoting their own game?

Aren't you asking the wrong people? We allow free and open communication about ANY game on our board.

[Ryker]

Aren't you asking the wrong people? We allow free and open communication about ANY game on our board.

That's why I said this

Plus...I do imagine this part was put in specifically after the split, when moods were dark and angry.

[Mercer]

Dear GOD. I just clicked that link Soo Ma Tai posted. Christ on a cracker, that's a lot of misinformation. I mean, I don't even know where to start. So much hostility! "OMG Bel is so evil and all they do is diss Dag and we don't diss Bel we just make it illegal to talk about Bel on out boards and consider any group that wants to officially affiliate with both groups to be in breach of contract..."

Siiiigh.

Now you see why us old sweats in the sport kinda sigh and put our head in our hands when these subjects come up time and again, either on here or in person. Whole lotta crap, not a lotta point.

[warwell]

Ryker,
While DBGA says they don't interfere with local chapters (and I believe that they don't), the Contract means they legally CAN if they decide to.

Item 4 of the Contract means that DBGA CAN dictate the rules that a local chapter follows at its local events:

"4. Follow the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, without deletion or alteration, for all events. Chapters may add rules in addition to those in the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System, as long as they do not decrease the safety of the fighting or over-rule the basic tenets of the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System."

While there is some leeway for house rules, who decides if these house rules decrease safety or "over-rule the basic tenets" of Dag rules system? I imagine that would be DBGA.

There are a number of other rules that allow DBGA to get involved with the governance of local chapters. While the rules are probably not onerous and there is probably a lot of de facto independence, I am sure that many people and groups are somewhat leery of allowing a faraway organization so much legal authority over their local group. And as one poster said, you get the same benefits from Bel as from Dag but without the same restrictions.

Anyway, I say to each his own. If a group wants total independence and chooses Bel, good for them. If they like being in Dag, that's cool, too. I'm just interested in fighting.

Kevin

[Derian]

A number of people have summarized why we're still split. Dag allows for bad things. They probably don't do these bad things, but the fact stands that they can.

[Winfang]

I hate these threads, I hate these threads, I hate these threads.

[Slagar]

And now all I can picture is Winfang rocking in a corner, muttering about how he hates these threads, and that Ragnarok is coming. I'm in the middle of class, trying desperately not to lose it right in front of the professor.

I've worked and fought with people from almost every group there is: Amt, Bele, Dag, Nero, Darkon, SCA, Barbarian Battles, home-grown local boffer, you name it. We hit people with sticks. We wear funny clothes. We camp and get drunk in bad weather, on purpose. That's pretty much grounds to label us social outcasts among mundanes. If this summer taught me anything, it's that we are all members of the same giant group of crazy people, and the happiest we'll ever be is when we ignore all this *, and move on. For anyone who agrees, there is actually an organized movement (kind of), to head in this direction. Contact Argyll of the Fianna, and ask about the Foam Fighters' Union.

FFU - we hit people with padded sticks. How about you?

[Ryker]

There are a number of other rules that allow DBGA to get involved with the governance of local chapters.

Such as?

These rules that I see in the contract seem to be put in place to protect the Dagorhir name from abuse by individuals and rogue groups. I can also imagine that Belegarth would try to protect itself if some dipwad starting doing malicious and/or stupid things while calling himself/themselves Belegarth.

Any rule can be used maliciously against you...but you guys seem to see bogey men in the closet that aren't there.

[Kyrax]

I hate these threads, I hate these threads, I hate these threads.

Quoted for Truth - thanks 'Fang.

Oh, and Angmarth - Ryker made my point (the one you disagree with). I was being half facetious about "anarchic collective", but only half facetious. The fact is, other than the 'promote only dagorhir' clause, DBGA hasn't done or said a word about how any local group runs, except for the Aratari chapter (of whom DGBA is the representative governing body).

There is an old truism in political science that applies here: when the actual differences on policy are small, the level of anger and rhetoric rises. Given the extreme similarities between the two groups, that is very much the case. Same goes if the two are grouped together and compared to Amtgard's melee fighting (whatever they call the version of their rules with the magic and character crap stripped away).

In the end we all (at least most of us) just want to hit people and have fun. Same applies even to Kegg, Dominus, Graymael, Madog, Erekose, or Bangor, Wisp, Spyn, and all the rest of us who dress up in odd clothing and hit each other with foam covered whatevers.

[Arrakis]

I've said my piece; I'm out of this thread.