Belegarth

http://www.electricsamurai.com/forums/v ... hp?t=16009

FWACK held a meeting this week, discussed SKBC, and the show is on! We've finalized the dates for SKBC'09 as May 7th - 10th, 2009.

The location is Geneva Hills Campground. Address: 1380 Blue Valley Rd SE, Lancaster, OH 43130.

it's really to bad we live in such a large country, OH is simply too far east for many of us out west. I would love to go, but my obligations as an employee and a parent sorta have to come first....dammit.

And your obligation to go to everything else.
I'm so **** booked for next year I don't know what to cancel.
I hardly have time for work anymore.
FB

Wait a year, and SKBC will probably be out in your territory again.

I'm hoping to make it. Just like everyone else, though, there are a million events around that time plus it's finals week for a lot of schools.

I can almost Garontee Ill be there.

Higher Priority than Spring War. And don't get me wrong, I love me some Spring War.

This event is about half as far away from me as Spring War; it may have to be my long road trip of the season. And it would certainly help give me some ideas for the Dagorhir academy I plan to run in May.

I'm confused what game this is for. Is it SCA?

No, Amtgard. YouTube it!

Even if I can't make it, I'm hoping for a strong Belegarth/Dagorhir showing. I've seen some SKBC guys mention that they would like this event to be for foamfighting and not Amtgard specific and that they'd be more than happy to incorporate any tricks they've picked up from our harder style of combat and also to include instructors from Belegarth/Dagorhir as well.

There is a lot of great things for fighters from every group to pick up at SKBC. Hands down the best place for anyone seriously interested in becoming a better fighter to learn.

On a side note... Brennon is putting together a cross-game foam fighting event to be held on Labor Day weekend. You can read what details there are about it at http://www.electricsamurai.com/forums/v ... hp?t=16052

Will

If Brennon's event pulls together as well as it looks like it might, I'll be there, cost permitting. It looks like it has the potential to be fairly epic.

Derian wrote:Even if I can't make it, I'm hoping for a strong Belegarth/Dagorhir showing. I've seen some SKBC guys mention that they would like this event to be for foamfighting and not Amtgard specific and that they'd be more than happy to incorporate any tricks they've picked up from our harder style of combat and also to include instructors from Belegarth/Dagorhir as well.

Quoted for truth.

I'm part of the group that runs SKBC each year (myself, Michael, Thor, Lief, Arthon, and Megiddo) and I can authoritatively say that I would really enjoy seeing more Bel/Dag/Whatever participation. We are actively seeking to incorporate teachers from different groups in the event. We invited Kenny last year, but he was unable to make it. We are re-inviting him this year, and are open to other suggestions as well.

I can definitely appreciate the desire Magnus has for your own version and totally support that, but you are also completely welcome to cooperate and join with us to make it more inter-sport.

Wisp wrote:There is a lot of great things for fighters from every group to pick up at SKBC. Hands down the best place for anyone seriously interested in becoming a better fighter to learn.

On a side note... Brennon is putting together a cross-game foam fighting event to be held on Labor Day weekend. You can read what details there are about it at http://www.electricsamurai.com/forums/v ... hp?t=16052

Will

This is a very interesting thing to hear. When you guys get things finalized and pre-reg let us know.

I would love to come and could slip in flexibly teaching alongside a number of other Belegarth vets. That said I would probably feel most comfortable to start there as a student. Or at least get a feel for the first day or two before putting on a class.

If there are any Belegarth groups in OH still looking for a seminar, I'd gladly do a one the weekend prior or after in exchange for air fair to get out there and back and room/board. This seems to be the direction I'm taking with Academy seminars in the foreseeable future. In this case it may even form an opportunity for one of the Amtgard veterans to also come out early and check out how a Bele-vet would teach our style and give me feedback before SKBC.

For that matter, my exp w/ OH fighters is that face-to-face range and roughhousing isn't a comfortable or common thing there, and provides a uniquely Belegarth topic to grow on and offer to a cross-game mix at SKBC.

I'd love to go to SKBC, but it's just too far away and during finals week. I was really excited when I heard it was coming to Rising Winds, but it's just the worst possible part of RW's territory and the worst possible timing for me. Rag is the only event that I can afford to drive 8 or 9 hours to.

Ok, to get this event, it is an event held in Ohio, our group is from michigan and right now the closer the better, can i get like more details plz, email polishboy66@msn.com

Polska,
Winfang posted a link at the top that'll give you the info. Just to help you out cause you seem new here, it's somewhat against social norms to expect people to email you information. Event Coordinators post information on the internet for the very purpose of not having to individually inform people. The link above will help you out. If you have more questions, post 'em, but always try to be proactive in obtaining information.

Aiden wrote:Polska,
Winfang posted a link at the top that'll give you the info. Just to help you out cause you seem new here, it's somewhat against social norms to expect people to email you information. Event Coordinators post information on the internet for the very purpose of not having to individually inform people. The link above will help you out. If you have more questions, post 'em, but always try to be proactive in obtaining information.

QFT. Where can I subscribe to your newsletter "How to keep you cool and not choke a * out over some really annoying ****."

i might have to check this out.. if only for the ditching. any classes i know to teach though would be too heavy hitting for amtgard. like how to shield bash.. or the art of heavy flanking lol

edgethrop wrote:i might have to check this out.. if only for the ditching. any classes i know to teach though would be too heavy hitting for amtgard. like how to shield bash.. or the art of heavy flanking lol

Or you could go to learn. From what I've seen, the teachers there are better than 90%+ of Belegarth fighters.

well duh lol i meant if i dont like the classes ill just ditch lol

Oisin wrote:Wait a year, and SKBC will probably be out in your territory again.

In our perfect world I will have a bid (pending an acceptable site) for SLC.

Loptr

edgethrop wrote:i might have to check this out.. if only for the ditching. any classes i know to teach though would be too heavy hitting for amtgard. like how to shield bash.. or the art of heavy flanking lol

Negative Sir, amtgard is much tougher than you may have thought. They swing just as hard, fight just as long (and often longer), and have just as cool people in their game. You may run into a couple people who might be surprised at your hit calibration, but you would be hard pressed to find someone who is gonna think you are "too heavy hitting".

Just sayin. It's a very common misconception that I only recently (SKBC 08) found to be incorrect.

I don't think Edge is going to consider anyone from Amtgard too heavy.

I didn't think so. I tried to word that as him finding people thinking he hits to hard.

My bad if I failed.

edgethrop wrote:i might have to check this out.. if only for the ditching. any classes i know to teach though would be too heavy hitting for amtgard. like how to shield bash.. or the art of heavy flanking lol

Assuming you make it out to SKBC I'd love to do a little shield work on bashing. My experiences in Bel events tend to be the swirling toilet bowl of flank/counter flank hell.

Granted in many of the outlying realms of Amt there can be a number of you swing hard types. In my experience and travels the average heartlander Texan swings as hard if not harder than many of my Bel brethren.

Loptr

Thats just because they are all * off about having to live in Northern Mexico.

Will

The toilet bowl of hell is because there is no effective leadership of armies in Belegarth. While we certainly have people that could tactically lead an army, and try it occasionally, half the people wouldn't listen.

In my experience, the toilet bowl effect is because people are more focused on surviving than killing. When you've got groups of people that are more interested in killing off the other team, and not concerned about getting killed fighting against unwinnable odds, things get interesting.

Locally, I see it as a focus of an individual's is their own kill-count, and not winning the battle, as the cause the toilet bowl. The "top" fighters will all stack on one-side of the flank allowing the weaker fighters to congregate on the opposite flank, the other team will form in a similar fashion. These "top" fighters are more interested in a kill-count then maximizing their effectiveness.

This could be construed as wanting to survive as long as possible. But if that where true, I would expect to see a much more drawn out battle.

Maybe there is too much autonomy within Belegarth which prevents large army tactics from developing beyond flank/counter-flank. Every individual and unit wants the glory for themselves, no one wants to play good solider boy.

I like the swirling flank-gasm.

But then, I'm Dur-D.

Winfang wrote:Locally, I see it as a focus of an individual's is their own kill-count, and not winning the battle, as the cause the toilet bowl. The "top" fighters will all stack on one-side of the flank allowing the weaker fighters to congregate on the opposite flank, the other team will form in a similar fashion. These "top" fighters are more interested in a kill-count then maximizing their effectiveness.

That is interesting. In Amtgard the good fighters line up across from each other. This is so prevalent that you often get what is referred to as the 'kiddie pool' effect; one end of the ditch is very high skill, and skill decreases uniformly on both sides as you go down the line. By the time you get to the opposite end of the ditch it's a bunch of new players swinging wildly until getting rolled by whichever of the good fighters were victorious.

Winfang's observations seem correct. I'd go even further to suggest people (Myself included, I won't lie) play like that because for 90% of the battles, it really doesn't matter who wins or loses. The only time you see any sort of cohesion and order following is in unit battles.

Unit/Realm battles are just utter chaos. Typically the unit that either has superior numbers (Triad, Iron Crown, or Hellhammer) can win through attrition and units that stay out of major engagements (EBF), win by herding other units around like cattle. All this is is a free-for-all on a large scale. There is a little more depth to it, but not much. There are way too many variables and inconsistencies to develop anything in-depth then these two basic strategies.

Now correct me if I'm wrong on this Brennon, but my understanding of Ditching is that is not exactly an equal of Belegarth's battles. While both look very similar, there are subtle difference between the two that make a dramatic impact in how they play out. The two are not quite synonymous.

Ditching in Amtgard is where two teams line up and people generally square off one-on-one. As people die off, then two-on-one and three-on-one, etc, start to happen as the surviving people continue down the line. While attacks might be initialized from the front, obliques, and flanks, they almost never begin from the rear of a person. Amtgard doesn't have dedicated skirmishers who run into the backfield of the opposing team, with intent to back-stab or just harass larger more important targets. While not expressly forbidden by a rule, this type of behavior is frown upon if I recall. Also, missile fire is almost always absent. The intent of ditching is to develop personal skill in a up-front fight, whether it be against one or many opponents.

A Belegarth battles is very stripped and raw in comparison. The intent is to beat the other side any way you can. Missile fire is almost always present as are back-stabbers. Unless forced by terrain or rules of a particular battle, teams generally split into 3 masses at "lay-on"; left flank, right flank, and center.

Winfang wrote:Ditching in Amtgard is where two teams line up and people generally square off one-on-one. As people die off, then two-on-one and three-on-one, etc, start to happen as the surviving people continue down the line. While attacks might be initialized from the front, obliques, and flanks, they almost never begin from the rear of a person.

I would say that is fairly accurate. Our militia wars are much closer to what Bel does on a regular basis. However, in those cases, it's almost always two sides lined up across from each other. It doesn't become 1 on 1, but the two lines definitely clash head on until a flank gets eaten and starts folding towards the center. Or the center gets eaten and starts rolling towards the flank. You rarely see retreating in Amtgard. It's generally 'stand and fight until you die'.

When we do see multi-team FFA militia battles with significant numbers of people (multiple teams of 20-50) then you do start seeing the backstabbing, refusing to engage, the random swirling, etc. Ultimately we collectively got fed up with it (since we are so conditioned to stand and fight) and started putting objective-based goals in place. So you cannot win by being the last person standing. That helped a LOT with advancing tactics, strategy, and critical thinking on the field.

Unless forced by terrain or rules of a particular battle, teams generally split into 3 masses at "lay-on"; left flank, right flank, and center.

That happens sometimes. In a war if that happens the team who separates out gets surrounded by people going in the breaks in their line.

i remember ditching as a field battle with 2 sides no classes and the losing side get either first kill or new fighters....
course i was up in pacific NW.....


fang, tactics are there, they are just not hannibal style tactics... i know i use tactics every time i fight... i don't just rely on just attrition to win unit battles... its just a tool in my tool box

but thats just me... not talking for everyone

Killian, my statements were generalization because I know of individuals who understand and try employ tactics but the majority of Belegarth either don't care to learn or don't care to listen to them. The most complex tactics are usually applied at the individual level, which is to be expected when a fighter's focus within Belegarth is personal glory and not victory for the army. Simply most fighters within Belegarth don't want to play good solider boy, it can be dreadfully boring.

Mel described militia battles (at SKBC last year) as 2 lines squaring off 1 v 1. Said they got really salty if you rolled down the back of a line. Sounds like what your describing Brennon, very interesting.

Militia battles are basically Belegarth. standard combat rules, armor, archers, no classes or abilities. The only real difference is that Amtgard armor has more points by type where as in Bel, it's one pt across the board.

Think of a ditch battle as more of a pick up game or training drill. There really isn't a winning side or a losing side other than to figure out who gets the first dead. You just fight over and over and over. Melee weapons only, no armor, no classes, nothing but base fighting in a line. It's really fast and it's where you go to work on your game. By far the most popular activity in Amt.

i see what your saying fang... thanks for the clarify

Wisp wrote:Militia battles are basically Belegarth. standard combat rules, armor, archers, no classes or abilities. The only real difference is that Amtgard armor has more points by type where as in Bel, it's one pt across the board.

Think of a ditch battle as more of a pick up game or training drill. There really isn't a winning side or a losing side other than to figure out who gets the first dead. You just fight over and over and over. Melee weapons only, no armor, no classes, nothing but base fighting in a line. It's really fast and it's where you go to work on your game. By far the most popular activity in Amt.

Oh, I understand all that, but the side the died definitely did not "win."

Big Jimmy wrote:

Wisp wrote:Militia battles are basically Belegarth. standard combat rules, armor, archers, no classes or abilities. The only real difference is that Amtgard armor has more points by type where as in Bel, it's one pt across the board.

Think of a ditch battle as more of a pick up game or training drill. There really isn't a winning side or a losing side other than to figure out who gets the first dead. You just fight over and over and over. Melee weapons only, no armor, no classes, nothing but base fighting in a line. It's really fast and it's where you go to work on your game. By far the most popular activity in Amt.

Oh, I understand all that, but the side the died definitely did not "win."

Sure, but the winning and losing isn't the point. My personal goal, while ditching, is to reduce my team to the smallest number of people possible until I am fighting alone. This gives me the best possible odds to develop myself as a fighter.

In a militia battle you actually have objectives and goals; you are trying to 'win', not 'get better'. Mel was probably talking about ditch battles, since we didn't do any militia battles at SKBC. In militia, people may whine about being backstabbed... But * them. It's not training, it's a fight. Whatever you do that wins, that's what you do.

Brennon EH wrote:It's not training, it's a fight. Whatever you do that wins, that's what you do.

That's how I find a lot of battles at events are. And that's fine.

I find that, on Dur-D's field, at least, regular practice battles are more about developing oneself as a fighter, including weapon form, range, tactics, field awareness, and everything else.

Yep, was definitely talkin about ditch battles. Probably specifically ditch battles at 1 in the morning. Pretty Awesome.

I too am annoyed at the way everyone seems to want to be a hero on the field. In Dagorhir, I feel like group tactics are a little more popular--more combined arms, more formation fighting--possibly because Dagorhir realms tend to be in areas that are not as flat as Bel or Amt. Washington suburbs, for example, have only very small parks, so when you have like 100 people in an area less than half the size of a football field, flanking and running in for a quick kill is much harder.

Heres my random scatter shot thoughts on this topic:

Getting foam groups to do unit level tactics isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Any type of unit maneuver is going to require at least some small degree of discipline and training. Very few groups of foam fighters spend their "practice" of "battle" days drilling. The ones that do are hardly effective in any real sense and even if they are, there aren't really any scenario events where you could put it into practice where it mattered at all.

My local SCA group has war maneuver events where the Kingdom's army comes out and practices for a weekend just so when it takes the field, the Calontir Sheild Wall is worth a *. If foam fighting groups did something similar, you might get something worth while as a result. But... it's kind of pointless unless other groups are doing it too and you have a place to put it to use.

I've not been in a large scale battle yet that hasn't been more or less an individual effort. When my company tries to fight in a group as a unit, we still get pulled apart into groups of twos and threes as the game plays itself out.

At Ragnarok this last year, I watched Rome do some organized charges but given the scenario involved, they might as well have blown butterfly kisses as it would have had about the same effect. That was largely because the scenarios were rez battles and even when they did their big charge into the enemy line and push in a good ten feet, the enemy just ran back, rezed and re-clogged the lines. Totally pointless.

I guess what I'm getting at here is, unless there is a reason to do any type of line fighting, you'll never have any line fighting. It's just more fun to be the hero and swirl around aimlessly in the toilet bowel of death. No one organizes scenarios that promote unit level activity because no one can really participate in it.

Will

Wisp, I find that Res Battles exacerbate the hell out of the situation, as well. What's even the point in even fighting in a giant res battle? You can't really win for your team, you can't hunt down the good fighters and kill them without getting arched or javved in the neck by some noobsicle from behind or from way out on your oblique.... It's just a way to wear out people with more energy than sense.

Down with Res Battles!