Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

[Peregrine]

And I like getting to play a different game.

Not better, just different.

agreed

[Arrakis]

And I like getting to play a different game.

Not better, just different.

agreed

That's why I so enjoy Amtgard ditching. Something different.

[Oisin]

But may the lord protect and preserve us from full-class battle games . . .

[Arrakis]

But may the lord protect and preserve us from full-class battle games . . .

In which you just say, "I wanna play a goblin," and then if anyone hits you with a spellball, casts something on you, or lands a hit on you, you die, lay down for 30 seconds, then get back up and keep swingin'.

[Rasheab]

But may the lord protect and preserve us from full-class battle games . . .

... and the inevitable arrows to the face.

[Oisin]

I wear my steel helmet in Amtgard battle games for just that reason.

Their arrows hurt like a * when you take one to the face.

[Rasheab]

So far I've avoided it, but it's been close. Every time a hold gets called during a class battle, I have to question whether the better aerodynamics is worth it.

Couple of times arrows have shot past my shoulder, and pegged someone behind me in the face. Makes ya twitchy, it does.

[Oisin]

Buy one and never worry about having to be twitchy again:



That's my helmet from the maker's website, weighs about 3 lbs and leaves me with nearly full range of vision . . . the cheekplates are hinged, and I take them off for fights where I'm going to need full peripheral vision more than full facial protection.

Also means you don't have to shield your face from legal arrows in Belegarth and Dagorhir.

Any metal helmet with a good nasal or ocular (inset eyes and a deep bowl help as well) should at least keep them off your eyes and nose, the cheekplates are really all you need to protect the rest of the face.

You could go with leather, but it wouldn't do the job of actually real life protecting you nearly as well, and you'd have to harden the **** out of the nasal. If you want to save weight, though, you could make the frame and nasal of a spangenhelm from 16 gauge steel and make the skullplates and cheekplates from thick leather.

[Michael]

I continue to be amused by how much Amtgard arrows worry Bel fighters. It really is a matter of what you are used to. Amtgarders see the arrow risk as negligible (and the statistics of serious injury back that up) while the Bel people see them as a relatively high risk. Its actually the same way Amtgarders view getting kicked in the chest.

[varadin]

Guess your right there michael, ive been fighting for a while and only seen 2-3 people ever been kicked in the chest. Kicked in the * thats a whole different number

[Peanut of Loderia]

I've only been fighting a few years yet have seen more than 2-3 people get kicked in the chest. However, the majority of those times I was standing near Killian, so take it what you will.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Kicked in the chest?

Pro Tip: Don't move your shield out of the way of a kick.

[Michael]

Pro Tip: Don't move your shield out of the way of a kick.

Equally Pro Tip: Stop blocking Amt arrows with the head.

[Big King Jimmy]

Right, but you you can pull back a kick, once an arrow leaves the bow there is nothing you can do about it. And when you get shot in the face when an arrow in Amtgard it seems like all you get is a wave and a "my bad" and that's supposed to stop your face hurting.

Thinking the only reason arrows hit people in the face is that people block arrows with their face is just silly.

[Michael]

Obviously I understand the differences and focusing on kicks to the chest is partly tongue in cheek.

I still see the similarity between Amtgard arrows and Bel's generally higher level of violence. Both groups evaluate the risk of the other groups accepted behavior as being higher than it is statistically. Even ignoring kicks to the chest, Bel allows many kinds of contact that my Amtgard friends think are pretty risky. Meanwhile Amtgard allows arrow technology that my Bel friends think is pretty risky.

Its possible that we also under estimate the risk of our own activities and as a regular player of both games, I under estimate the risk of all these things. I doupt it; but since serious injuries from either of these behaviors is rare enough there isn't any data based way to analyze it.

[Big King Jimmy]

I got ya, but the difference to me is I've never seen an injury from a kick to the chest in Belegarth, I have seen an injury from an Amtgard arrow at LoW (and he looked like he'd gotten **** up in an alley outside a bar) and while LoW did have a similar injury from a Bel arrow I have tons of exposure to Bel arrows and see very little injury. So at events I've been to with Amtgard arrows, 100% of had injuries, and that's how a lot of the people that went to LoW feel.

[Ramius]

Jimmy, I feel that having Amtgard arrows the way they are and not super squishy also allows us to not have the "archers call their own shots" rule.

Using your same logic, the one Belegarth event I went to (Equinox a few years back) I saw many cases of archers making * poor calls on other players with their shots (some of which seemed rather obvious to have not been a good shot). This means that 100 percent of the Belegarth events I have been to I have seen archers cheat to win.

I would be a fool to believe that all events have cheating archers and I think you can see the flaw in basing assumptions off one event. I have been shot in the face many times with Amtgard arrows and find it comparable to head shots from melee weapons (yes, even hits from Bel weapons).

Are all arrows created equal? No. Are all archers created equal? No. My bad experience with archers will not dissuade me from going to another Bel event, I hope you feel so inclined toward Amtgard.

-Ramius

[Big King Jimmy]

Oh trust me, I'd love to try Amtgard archery, and Amtgard in general. If it weren't for the fact that my local shires fighting practice is pretty... lack luster, and I don't have the time to start another (the closest is about an hour to an hour and a half away, and I understand that if I started a shire it would have to be an Amtgard shire, not a belegarth practice I call a shire).

I'm just trying to defend Belegarth's "You want to shoot WHAT at me?" mentality.

[Oisin]

For the record, I don't really think Amtgard arrows are a health risk. I just don't like getting hit in the face by some dumbass who can't shoot straight and has inadequately padded arrows.

[Michael]

And to me that is equally amusing since the pain of being bashed to the ground is about the same as that of being hit in the face with a hard arrow. Again, I am not calling anyone wrong, I am just amused by how set we all become in our ways.

[bo1]

i think the highest standard is always the best as far as saftey is concerned.

i would love to see bel use the arrows we currently do and have head shots not count. that to me would be the best practice. but that aint gunna happen.

oh and a;; archer do cheat to win, that is why they have no soul.
lol, yes that last bit was a joke.


everything we do has a risk attached to it. driving a car, riding in a airplane, rock climbing, hunting, and fighting. accept the risk you are comfortable with. if you drive, you got no worries about fighting, nobody i know of has died from fighting, grave yards are full of drivers.

[GvK]

Honestly, want to dramatically improve the overall safety of Bel and Dag combat? If so, simply require some sort of sports goggles to prevent knock-to-eye injuries, and improve basic eye safety. Not going to happen however.

Next best thing: remove arrows. Not going to happen. Next, next best: disallow head shots from arrows and thus javelins (I'd also remove rocks at that point for playability reasons) and accidental hits do NOT count.

[Arrakis]

Honestly, want to dramatically improve the overall safety of Bel and Dag combat? If so, simply require some sort of sports goggles to prevent knock-to-eye injuries, and improve basic eye safety.

Even allowing sport goggles or *gasp* plastic sunglasses would be a big step in that direction, DAGORHIR GARB HERALDS :C.

[GvK]

My previous post was not intended to supporrt the use of sunglasses.

[Arrakis]

My previous post was totally awesome and completely supported the use of sunglasses.

:devil:

Sunglasses! They protect your eyes from nocks AND UVA/B!

[GvK]

Um, if you say so...

[varadin]

sunglasses are a good idea. This is Taltosh he shot an arrow and it bounced off the shield and came back the person. Very similar to the idea of someone shooting a shield line and it coming back at your line. Youll never see me at an event without some for of protection over my eyes.

[Sir Anastasia]

Poor Taltosh! I think this is a good example of what additional safety related archery training can do for you. My realm teaches archers to think about how shots will "bounce back" or what they will hit next if they miss, encouraging them to take safer shots at angles that avoid bounces and inadvertent targets. It's not a rule that they can't take the shot, but at least they are informed about the shot and can decide what risks are appropriate.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

i think the highest standard is always the best as far as safety is concerned.

And conversely just because there are some people out there who can make weapons safe in certain dimensions does not mean that one should lower weapon specs to what a few people can do... The masses still make crap outta blue foam that breaks down after a few swings... I'm having this argument in Darkon right now... My example is that just because Ferraris can go 150mph safely, does not mean that Ford Escorts can. Thus, just because there are a handful of Ferraris out there, does not mean we should raise the speed limit to over 100 mph...

Also, in 11 years of foam fighting, I've kicked 2 or 3 guys in the chest when they moved their shields. I've been kicked once by a guy who I almost punched in the face because he kicked me when I did not move and my shield wasn't in front of me. And I must admit I moved my shield at least once and was kicked that way... No big deal, no serious injuries from any of the above incidents...

[Arrakis]

My example is that just because Ferraris can go 150mph safely, does not mean that Ford Escorts can. Thus, just because there are a handful of Ferraris out there, does not mean we should raise the speed limit to over 100 mph...

I don't like that analogy. Try this one:

All cars must be safe for driving 150 mph and all cars will be checked for that safety level on the way through Car Check. If some people can build a car that's safe for that speed with fewer parts and a smaller engine and less material in the frame, great. If they can't, no big deal. As long as it's safe. Which it just got checked for.

[Titan G]

i'll kick at you if you see me and don't turn the shield to face me. you signed a waiver. learned that from vokor, walk it off, if the arrow hits to hard go for a good cry and watch some gilmore girls you * and if the kick hurt to bad, fight better.

[Peregrine]

if you intentionally kick someone and not the shield, and I'm heralding I will toss your butt of the field. then you can watch watch Gilmore girls and cry.

[Soo Ma Tai]

If I see someone kicks at ~me~ and not my shield, that is a problem. If I move my shield out of your kicks path, that's my bad. If you kick at me and hit me because i did not move my shield into the path of the kick, you can expect to get kicked back.

Our rules allow for shield kicking. If my shield isn't turned toward you, or you aren't aiming for my shield when you kick, you are violating the rules of the game, waiver or not.

[Titan G]

just so we're clear i don't actually kick people, i'm to fat and i can't get my leg up there but id rather take a kick to the chest than a sword to the side cause i wanna win my point is that all * about violence is redundant in full contact sport, the only thing we don't allow is out and out striking and if your tall enough you CAN do that too with a cored shield. so arguements of overt violence and safety are redundant. the weapons should be made safe as possible, i'm not good enough with wording to add anything to real forums where alot of you guys hash all that stuff out but our rules could be a **** load safer and so could our testing and regulations but we don't want to or have the time to put into that and still have the game be fun. everyone always wants to talk heavy and light swings and weapons and **** in safety arching, reds, shield bashing, shield edging, grappling, armor, heavy weapons are the things that off the top of my head aren't safe. my point was the redundancy of the "whats more dangers amt archery or bele shield work" cause they both **** are. its a game built around combat, the most dangerous activity they could find to build a game around. and if you don't move the shield if i do somehow manage to get my fat * leg up there and i kick you toss me off the field but next time i see that fighter he'll move the * shield.

[Soo Ma Tai]

girls

No, I am just not a cheater who tries to hurt people.

[Titan G]

i feel it's no more or less painful than a shield bash from a large man, say what you want about padding or whatever but its just as bad.

Edit: i'd also like to point out that no where am i saying this is legal and i don't think it's a good idea, im mostly mocking this debate. and peregrine if you were to kick me off that would be fine, your a herald your allowed to do that and i would go without arguement.

[Soo Ma Tai]

[quote="Titan G"]i feel it's no more or less painful than a shield bash from a large man, say what you want about padding or whatever but its just as bad.[quote]

I beg to differ, I have been shield bashed by some of the bigger guys in the game, and I can gaurentee that it's less painful than a kick from me to your ribs. A rung bell is little pain compared to a few broken ribs.

[Peregrine]

girls

No, I am just not a cheater who tries to hurt people.

If I had been thinking I would have said to myself "It's just Gravish stirring the pot again." Then smiled and went on my way, but no I bite like big stupid fish,
just remember no kicking people! Soo is a much bigger fish than me, with a much bigger bite.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

My example is that just because Ferraris can go 150mph safely, does not mean that Ford Escorts can. Thus, just because there are a handful of Ferraris out there, does not mean we should raise the speed limit to over 100 mph...

I don't like that analogy. Try this one:

All cars must be safe for driving 150 mph and all cars will be checked for that safety level on the way through Car Check. If some people can build a car that's safe for that speed with fewer parts and a smaller engine and less material in the frame, great. If they can't, no big deal. As long as it's safe. Which it just got checked for.

I'm not sure if my analogy got my point across... The problem I'm having in Darkon is people are making rules to match some very skilled weapon smith's abilities. When a spud comes out with his first junky blue foam sword and makes it to the specs of the crazy high tech guy's stuff, it is WAY unsafe. So I am not a fan of raising speed limits becasue one or two cars can safely go THAT fast. Keep the speed limit low, and everyone is safe.

Does that make more sense? I am not a fan of making sword dims go down under 3"... Just a personal thing, I hit REAL hard...

[Arrakis]

Thrush, what I'm saying is: Everything Absolutely has to be safe to the same standard. Doesn't matter how you build it, it will always have to be that safe. If you can build it 2.5"x1" and it's that safe, awesome. If you can't get it down below 3.75"x1.75" at that same level of safety, well, that's ok, too. But we can allow swords like the first one (the <3" safe sword) and still fail UNSAFE <3" swords because we have a mechanism for testing safety and failing unsafe weaponry. We call it: The Hit Test.

If people try to make swords that look and act like a Mastersmith's blades, but they use **** materials instead of the super-space-age whatever that the Masters are using, they'll fail the hit test.

I guess I fail to see the problem. If something is safe enough to pass Hit, then it's safe. If it ain't, it ain't, regardless of dimensions.

[varadin]

arrakis i agree with you 100%. I know the general Dagorhir populous though arent as good as weapon smiths as we would like to think. This fact alone will have most of the old guard and "good ole boys" saying no to getting rid of min dimensions since they dont want average joe newbie to make an unsafe sword and think its great. I know up here they wont listen to me wanting to get rid of them since they believe it will encourage hard hitting weapons and tap fighting. Similar to what ive we in ohio have seen develop in a certain northwestern part of the state.

[Titan G]

I beg to differ, I have been shield bashed by some of the bigger guys in the game, and I can gaurentee that it's less painful than a kick from me to your ribs. A rung bell is little pain compared to a few broken ribs.

Seriously not trying to put this in an offensive manner but either your kicking to injure or your not being shield bashed hard enough

a strategically place weaker kick can do far more than a smashing one imo but that gets into fighting technique not level of violence

[Sir Anastasia]

I get shield bashed and shield kicked often. A straight up kick to the ribs can result in serious injury (small area for force dispersal) compared to the bash--which really just knocks people down with relatively little discomfort (in a full-contact sport).

In response to the "not being bashed hard enough," I don't see why people need to make this hurt at all. It seems fairly effective as means for getting people prone, and after that you should get in all the shots you need. Same thing should be true for most kicks, this can be used to get people prone OR to make an opening, and certainly the latter requires little force on non-cored shields. I would say the people who kick to get opponents prone aren't "kicking to injure," but this could cause injury from the force if it is misplaced in exactly the same way a misplaced shield bash would also cause injury.

Bottom line: Your opponents' safety is your responsibility, you need to have the maturity to know when these tactics are appropriate.

-AoC

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Thrush,

...because we have a mechanism for testing safety and failing unsafe weaponry. We call it: The Hit Test.

... If something is safe enough to pass Hit, then it's safe. If it ain't, it ain't, regardless of dimensions.

I totally get what you are saying, but if you can prevent 1 injury by keeping the margin for error a tad bit bigger, wouldn't you say that it is worth it. You are making the same argument that I'm combating here in Baltimore... I guess becasue there is NO tool you can use (that I know of), and people are afraid to * people off, there is no way to guarantee that just "the hit test" is enough to guarantee safety...

My problem is lately I've been getting hurt (shins and head mostly) by really unsafe weapons, as Darkon has removed any sword blade dimensions. The rules here (obviously not your problem) now state, a blade must be no less than 2/3 as wide as it is thick... So it is ENTIRELY up to interpretation how safe it is, as there is no more minimum measurement...

I guess I just see all discussions like this one as a slippery slope. I know I cannot make it to many Belegarth events due to location and time, but I try to help the foam fighting community in general by being cool to everyone and throwing in my 2 cents if I think I can help... I get hit more than most people I play against, in all games, because of the way I fight... So I am always one of the first to notice when there is an unsafe trend in any game I play... I feel your optimism for the hit test being a "be all and end all" test for safety, is based on a perfect world... You are not wrong, I just think people suck at life and mostly fail at anything involving common sense... Maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy...

Know what I mean?

[Arrakis]

The Hit Test is so simple as to be completely fool-proof if done correctly.

The chief thing that makes the Hit Test effective as a tool for preventing injuries (By the way, I'm going to pause to mention that Belegarth has no blade dimension rules whatsoever and it doesn't seem to have been a problem for us. I own several swords in the 2.7-2.9" wide range and several in the ~1.2" thick regime; they're all safe.) is the fact that you WILL be hit harder in check with a weapon than you will be on the field. I would wager that >99.9% of shots on the field are at a lower force than a good weapons checker's Hard check swing. If it passes without causing injury or undue pain at that level of shot, it should be just fine for the sort of shot you're far more likely to run into on the field.

If weapon checkers are doing it wrong, well, that's no fault of the rules. Where I play, checkers do their jobs and I'll step in to help and make certain of it if need be. If I feel a weapon is unsafe, for example, when I get hit with it on the field, I'll call for an immediate check. And it'll happen, and if the weapon isn't safe, it will fail right then.

I just think it's really backward to mandate a thickness of padding without specifying the padding or leaving room for padding equivalences. Three layers of bluefoam and 1.3" of progressively-layered foams of different densities are not equivalent; the layered foams are better. You need less of them for the same max striking force (weapon length and balance).

Anyway, I've gotta run to class.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Yes, Gravvish, I kick hard when i shield kick...I also have the control to do so and still pull it if someone foolishly moves their shield. I have never actually kicked a persons body. I weigh in at about 145 lbs. so going sheild to shield against a bull rushing big guy doesn't work for me. My answer is a shield kick that can stop them in their tracks. Admittedly, I can kick harder than most people in the game, I also temper that with not doing so stupidly or in a manner that is likely to hurt anyone.

I get where you are coming from man, so no worries. Trust me, I've been shield bashed hard enough to pick me up, throw me back a few feet and nearly KO me from the impact with the ground. I've done the same to someone with a shield kick (thanks for the fun ZugZug). I do use strategic kicking as well as forceful kicking depending on the situation and person I am fighting. I never seek to injure people, it's just against my nature.

You had made it sound like you were just gonna kick me unless I moved my shield into your way...I just think that is wrong. It sounded as if you were kicking to injure and didn't really care too much about the person at the other end of kick. IF that's not the case then this is pretty much moot.

[GvK]

Minimum weapon dimensions, IMIO, are a good thing for MOST weapon builders, especially novice ones. They gives newer builders written/clear specifications they can follow that with the aid of online designs and veterans who help them out. This is a good thing. Sure, experienced foamsmiths can make weapons that are fully safe and below the minimum diimensions, but providing reasonable minimums probably makes these games we play, as a whole, safer than not having them. However, they could be construed as "punishing" veteran foamsmiths. Comes down to a balancing act between trying to legislate safety vs. allowing freedom and innovations.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Comes down to a balancing act between trying to legislate safety vs. allowing freedom and innovations.

Bingo, and here in Baltimore I have seen the innovative vets, who build awesome-newfangled-hightech super swords, cause youngins to bring out, technically legal, crap.

If weapon checkers are doing it wrong, well, that's no fault of the rules

I stepped on a lot of toes recently by calling out ALL the weapons marshals in Darkon (I am one, but not one who checks at the beginning of events...), there was a serious need for edumacation...

Basically (IMO) what all games will come to realize, is that until there are material REQUIREMENTS, weapon dims are all we have as a base line comparison... Unless you, my math knowing friend, can prove otherwise (which is likely). I don't really see how you can have any game open to new kids who discover our games online or wherever, who then wanna make their own weapons and come play, AND have no basic guidelines other than the "arbitrary" hit test... I just think we are going to elite ourselves right out of game growth. I have observed a push in the Belegarth community to be THE best/fastest/coolest no matter what the cost (this is a VAST generalization of course and not meant negatively) which would seem to me to hamstring the game's ability to have new people come out. Now if one were to propose a pro level and an entry level... Like a minor league system... that might work. In the minors there would be weapon dims, and in the pros you have material specs, no weapon dims...

I dunno, I have been observing Darkon, Dag and Bel for 11 years, and these types of developments keep me interested!!!

[Arrakis]

There is NO WAY that a fresh newb can build a legal weapon or shield just by looking at our rules. It's about the same chance as that of a monkey accidentally typing "Much Ado About Nothing" by banging on a keyboard. It's not possible. I mean, what do you get?

1.3.1. All striking surfaces of Weapons must be padded adequately to prevent personal injury when striking an opponent with full force on that surface.
1.3.2. All non-striking surfaces must be padded adequately to prevent personal injury from incidental contact.
1.3.3. Two and one-half inch rule-No surface on a striking edge (sword tip, arrow head, spear head, javelin head, etc.) whether designed for stabbing or not, may readily pass more than 0.5 inch through a 2.5 inch hole; swords with a semicircular tip, with a minimum 1.5 inch radius are exempt from this rule. See Appendix A, 1.4.4.2.
1.3.4. The Weapon pommel must not readily pass through a 2" diameter hole.
1.3.5. The maximum allowed flex of any Weapon except Javelins is 45 degrees. See Appendix A, 1.4.7.6.
1.3.6. All striking surfaces must have a cloth covering.
1.3.7. The amount of tape on a striking surface should be kept to a minimum.
1.3.8. All handles of wood Weapons must be taped, including bamboo and rattan.
1.3.9. A Weapon may not have a metal core.

and then a bunch of length and weight specifications. Nowhere does it specify type, material, density, firmness, hardness, compression, or any other properties of the "padding" that we require. Hell, it doesn't even require that you use foam! If you can build a passing weapon using quilt batting, that's fine, too!

I submit to you that adding a "Its gotta be x wide by x thick" specification just means that the poor newb's gear will fail in a different way or for something different.

I've NEVER seen a new fighter who wasn't being guided by a veteran fighter or who didn't have an extant copy of a legal weapon to work from build a passing weapon WITHOUT the use of a step-by-step tutorial. Too, I've NEVER seen a new fighter bring out a weapon that would have been legal if only, if only they had known to build it 3"x1.25".

New people without nearby examples of proper 'smithing should be using the fabulous tutorials posted all over the * place by Dag and Bel fighters. The BelWiki has lots, Dag's Gear page has a bunch of half-decent tutorials, Eryndor has that *' flash tut... The BoW is NOT the place to look for "How to build a sword lolz". If we'd like a Handbook-type document like Dag has, we can put in a whole slew of commentary on how MOST passing blades are >3x1.25 and list tutorials for building good swords. But the BoW is not the place for that.


BTW, If it's technically legal, it passes. Even if it's "crap". If it's not legal, i.e., because it failed the hit test, it's, well, not legal.

[Michael]

I think minimum dimensions are useful and I dont think they actually hurt the efforts of master foam smiths very much. Sure they add one more design constraint but its not a major constraint and it does go a long way toward putting safety forward in all situations. My Bel experience says that at decent sized events weapon checks are quite good and the checkers do get rid of painful or potentially dangerous crap. However, the situation at most practices and some smaller events is less clear. Social pressure is more of a factor in these situations and checking is generally laxer.