Belegarth

After being spotted cleaning armor and washing garb, I was asked to make a youth foam fighting group at the local community center.
I am thinking that I am stuck during the week anyways that I am actually considering it.

Here are my issue with it.
-Choice of making it Dagorhir or Belegarth
Because if I make it one, it will not be able to be the other too. Just to keep to Dagorhir people happy.
because it will be kids from 8 - 17yrs of age.
That is a lot of waivers notarized if for both communities.

Now,
because they are kids, play it a bit softer and aim for Dagorhir
or go with Belegarth where it is more of the realm I am starting in the area anyways.

Well, to be a Dagorhir realm, IIRC, you need three officers and two must be 18 or older.

Both games rules are totally awesome. Most of the people in both games are totally awesome. In fact, a good half of the members of both games play the other game! Both games have totally awesome events. The leaders of both games seem like good people, good fighters, and well characterized on the field.

The Dagorhir Servicemark is owned by a very small group of people, and decisions about its use are not made by the community as a whole. You can never use a Dagorhir group to recommend or promote any other game. Belegarth is open-source. No one can ever tell you how or not to play Belegarth, or not to cross-promote any other game.

Like I said, both games are awesome, but I think it's obvious which one has the potential to be more beaurocratic trouble. :-)

That's my two cents. It should not be construed as insulting to anyone, but with the political situation the way it is, that is how I feel on the matter.

My advice: Don't make it a realm of anything, because that takes it from being a local group with no outside worries, to being a small part of a national organization.

Dagorhir can't prevent you from using their rules or "playing Dagorhir" in any (noncomercial) way at any time, because the rules of a game or sport cannot be copywrited. Thus, if the rules are freely distributed, you can legally play the game at any time in any way you want, you just can't say that you're a group of Dagorhir.

So, call yourself the (Local Area Youth Group Name Here) Medeival Combat Club, and use whichever ruleset you like best, or combine the better elements of each. Don't worry about national stuff from either side, and have fun and teach the kids. If you want to take them to events, that's all good and well, but make your focus internal and leave Belegarth and Dagorhir out of it.

PS--If you're interested, here's the specific section out of the United States copywrite laws:

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

"The idea for a game is not protected by copyright. The same is true of the name or title given to the game and of the method or methods for playing it.... Copyright protection does not extend to any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in the development, merchandising, or playing of a game."

And a discussion thereof:

http://www.godsmonsters.com/?ART=152

Oisin is actually probably right. For a group that's primarily too young to be part of the national scene, don't bother. For the kids who are interested in it and of age, let them know about your 'real' realm.

It's what we do at my university. We're the Washington University Medieval Combat Society, use heavily modified Belegarth rules (we use the Arnor house rules), and don't even bother telling people much about national stuff until it's time to start publicizing events. We normally go to mostly Bel events, but will probably be hitting up Gates of Summer (Dag event in Kansas City) this year to check out a different scene and b/c Spring Wars is looking like it's going to be scheduled for after school's out.

As far as what we DO tell them about national politics and the Bel/Dag split, when it does come up, we explain it as a bunch of stupid shenanigans that went down between two groups of old fogeys (And who knows which group was right or wrong? Who cares? It's over and done with and a fact of life now) back when I was in middle school and our newest batch of froshlings were in 5th grade and that people from both games are 95% cool, fun people and sometimes there's 5% who are *.

Seconding what Oisin said already. These are 8-17 year olds? what do they care about the politics of the sport? They're objective is to have fun, whatever rules you decide to run with will be fine with them as long as they get their hands on the weapons. Go with whatever you feel most comfortable enforcing/organizing.

And as a personal note i think the politics just hinder enjoying the sport anyways.

true true true
Foam fighting in its general sense for the fighting.
Plus the politics are always to be unknown to the newbies until they want to go to different events.

Where I live I am starting up belegarth, in Raleigh, I am starting up Dagorhir.
Every other saturday i will be doing dagorhir
as 1-2 times a week will be Bele.

got plenty to do already. first thing will be is make weapons and start with the newbies

Expand your horizon, bro. I'd say for the children under 13 use Amtgard melee rules or the Barbarian battles tournament rules of which both are safer for lack of shield kick/bash or grappling, and then make a 'heavy' or 'teen' fighting category that is essentially HACS 3/4 or Belegarth/Dagorhir. Since it's a community center, treat it more like a game than like a fantasy live action combat system. For the parents it should be as if their kids were playing dodgeball or kickball. Don't discourage fantasy, but do complement folks for wearing garb/uniforms, etc...

If this one is successful...pitch the idea to other community centers and get intramurals set up. Do it right and you could maintstream foam fighting in your area, or at least make it as normal as a caber tossing.

Good work already!

Rule Change Suggestions

No kicking of shields No bashing with shields. Target area from shoulder to knee to avoid tripping and sprained ankles. Assigning different attributes to weapons to depict the setting (i.e. having axes go through armor but not two-handed swords to show how the Normans had to adjust to the new concept of the battle axe. I like the idea of only axes being class two weapons. I think that it brings better balance to the game play.)

I am a goblin and I always go in full garb, minus the helmet.
after a few weeks of them fighting and getting into it, they should be getting more into garb.
Same goes for if hey have been fighting for a while, to look into getting their own personal gear. I would be the lazy bum and just order edhellen in bundels.


the idea of shoulder to knee is a good idea, and the balancing it out by age group with different rules will definitely help
No brainer to the shield bash/kick and grappling. We dont want to make jack-o-lantern kids.

Hello I like it, just inform me. Maybe I can joined your plan and play with you and the whole team.

I definitely agree with the direction this thread took. I would like to point out that disallow grappling would almost be required as kids of that age (8-13 more than the 13-17 crowd) can take physical contact from fun to "I want to kill you" in a matter of seconds. All it takes is one little push during warm-ups to have a kid chasing another one with a wooden rod trying to cause real injuries (if you can't tell, I had it happen to me while coaching...).

The biggest differences between the two games is what rule book is used at their national event (Rag vs Arm). Other than that, realms are allowed to use their own rules for their events (correct me if I'm wrong about Dag realms...). I know one event I read on the Dag boards was using their rules with our tiered armor grappling rules.

~Þ~

Your rant here clearly shows which rules set and organization you prefer and which you should ingrain into the impressionable minds of the youth.

Emperor Palpatine wrote:Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.

The statements made by others of both games being fun and most people in both being cool are valid, however the post regarding which rules and culture are more user friendly is even more accurate. Search your feelings. You will know it to be true.

In case you're still wavering, here's some movie quotes to sway you.

The Empire Strikes Back
Darth Vader: If [they] could be turned, [they] will become a powerful ally.
Emperor: Yes. [They] would be a great asset. Can it be done?
Darth Vader: [They] will join us or die, my master.

Revenge of the Sith
Supreme Chancellor Palpatine: Good is a point of view, Anakin. The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power.

Attack of the Clones
Supreme Chancellor Palpatine: And as my first act with this new authority, I will create a grand army of the Republic to counter the increasing threats of the Separatists.

Return of the Jedi
Emperor: It is unavoidable. It is your destiny

Revenge of the Sith
Supreme Chancellor Palpatine: Do it!

The community center took 3 months to tell me that they didnt approve of it because it was Violent, and they didnt want fights to break out. I have been running the practices in the 2 acre grass field behind the hotel that I work/live in. After someone tried to drop off their kids like for baby sitting, I choose to change the minimum to 9 with a possible 8 if it can follow orders.
Everyone hits each other based on their age. The short ones get softer as the 13+ are hit hard.

Outhro Youkker wrote:After someone tried to drop off their kids like for baby sitting, I choose to change the minimum to 9 with a possible 8 if it can follow orders.

When our Amtgard park started having issues with the "day care" scenario. We adopted a rule of under 14 (Amt min age to play) IF we let your under age kid play a legally responsible adult MUST be present at all times.

IMHO rsk management for your personal * should be your #1 priority. If little Johnny gets cauliflower ear from a core or what ever injury occurs. A vengeful parent is gonna come after you legally or illegally. Simply NOT worth the risk friend.

Notarized waivers are a * good start but will not protect you from an attorney with a cause.

Good luck, I hope the idea works great for you and you dont have any stupid problems crop up.

Loptr

p.s. While on the front of paranoia and risk management. Consider the horribe events of the SCA recently with one of their youth advisors and a sex predator. DO NOT be the sole adult around minors, and DO NOT ever be alone with one.
p.p.s God I hate our paranoid, vengeful and mentally disturbed society.

Our min age is also 14, but we do allow for exceptions if the parent is willing to be there while the child is fighting. This is primarily done for members of our group who have kids of their own who want to play. Because the parent plays as well, they understand the risks involved, and are generally not going to sue you if their kid gets injured.

When I say middle of nowhere, I mean it is a village and I started from scratch. The first to join me was a 15yr old and I allowed his siblings a few weeks later. They had waivers filled out and notarized the next day.
In the begging, it was fighting in a patch of grass in front of the hotel. Always in public view. When the other kids start showing up, it became I as teacher and running practices as a class. Those over 18 that showed up once, signed waiver and never came back, still left the image of the practices looking like I am running a game for kids.

* that community center. I was just asked by the historical park that I volunteer at to set up a practice in their field. I have to write up a quick summary proposal of when is the best time for me to run a practice, and they will give free promotion on their website about the practices. Their field is decent sized and has been used for SCA and a few LARPS before, so they have ideas of what would be going on.
All I have been asked to do is organize it to a Kids practice then and Adult practice.

Today has been AWESOME!!! First I got to practice being the blacksmith today in the settlement, then I am offered a field to fight on.
Muahahahaha!!! My giggles and evil plots are swirled together in how awesome I feel.
http://roanokeisland.com/
I want to gloat, but I have a lot more 1585 history to read up on. I am still a mundane not in garb yet.

The irony is that my local Dag group is being BEGGED by the Parks Dept to teach a Fall class on foam fighting. We've been doing volunteer work to help lower costs of renting camping sites. They like us so they asked us to do a demo at a summer "In the Parks" day. Our demo was the biggest event there, with afterwards upwards of 20 kids (mostly) bashing away on each other with uber-soft weapons at any one time, and big crowds watching us demo.

So I suppose it is all how you approach things and the people involved. I think our Parks are so broke that they want anyone who'll put on a class that they can get fees for (the $$ goes to the parks budget, not us). We know that most will be underage, so we'll just use simplified rules (basically blue swords and daggers, and no shields). At the end we're talking about demonstrating the fuller range of what we do, but we'll still keep the age mins at 15 for regular practices. Younger kids can walk away with weapons they've made (if they pay for materials) and we may hold follow up classes in the Spring.

The point of a class like this is to expose these kids to this hobby in general - I could give a fart which group they choose to join. The more people who know about this the better. If it results in a few recruits - great! If we have some fun, get some kids to be more active, and end up with a stack of doofy loaner weapons, it is all to the good.

Most of my personal that breaks too much gets refurbished into the community pile. Those that break in the community pile become stockpiled "I can fix later"
and now that I have the opportunity of recruiting more, I need to dive into the "I can fix later" pile, and bring back the mindless variety for the community weapons.
First I have to finish writing up the proposal.

I have made workshop days of repair, maintenance, and build. Where all people have to bring is the materials and I will supply the tools and Contact cement. It makes it easier for everyone else.

Outhro Youkker wrote:I have made workshop days of repair, maintenance, and build. Where all people have to bring is the materials and I will supply the tools and Contact cement. It makes it easier for everyone else.

What an excellent way to get geared fighters quickly and to teach them proper weapons construction techniques and your realm loaner pile doesn't get used up each practice by lazy regulars. Hopefully you get reimbursed by the park for the DAP.

I learned it from Old Horse
Better to watch over than let people go make stuff without proper instruction.

The community weapons are all different shapes and sizes because of the modifications done from how they broke. For the first month(4 practices) they get an idea of what they like and what they want to build. We try for once a month for a build day. By then they get to make their first short sword fit to them and after that any build they want.
Getting people to pitch in for the bucket of Dap would be a good thing too. I dont like having to have the park reimburse me for the Dap, unless we are making stuff for their summer camps and such.