Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

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Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby bangor » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:27 am

Forkbeard wrote:And Bangor, we'd need a new thread to discuss why I wouldn't be cuaght dead running an Ampt-group.
I mean, I like someof those guys, Lotr is a good freind, But Amtguard has many many serious game play problems. Too many to go into here.
Let just say the few time a year I go to the SLC amtguard practice are 2 too many already.
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Here ya go sharp-tooth!

I got my own ideas on what is wrong with the Amtgard system of play, but I'd like to hear what the more experienced Belegarth fighters think. Go ahead and gimme a list, and I'll give you mine (of Amt). Hell, I might even throw in what I think about Belegarth as a bonus!
Last edited by bangor on Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Spike » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:30 am

The Other Medieval Recreation Sports is for discussion of upcoming events and improving inter-game relationships, not for sitting around talking **** about other games.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby bangor » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:55 am

This isn't pointless jibbing at games. By listening to the viewpoints of people outside of my system, I can gain insight into problems that I may not have been able to see previously. I already have my expectations of what might be said :D , but I might also find myself quite surprised as to the depth, variety and validity of several arguments. Actually, I kind of expect the latter. Keep it intellectual, folks.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Sir Killian » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:52 am

the amtgard armor system is wack... i can get up to 6 or 7 extra hits per area... just my opinion... i think if max were 3 or 4 id be fine with that... i fought amtgard for 2 yrs in NWA back in 2002-2004....

also the safety issue of flails bothered the **** out of me...

i thoroughly enjoy madu and wish belegarth would add them to acceptable weapons
classes were a bit weird to get used to... i wished the counts for deaths and spells was cut in half also...

other than that the systems are almost the same...
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Loptr » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:13 pm

bangor wrote:
Forkbeard wrote:And Bangor, we'd need a new thread to discuss why I wouldn't be cuaght dead running an Ampt-group.
I mean, I like someof those guys, Lotr is a good freind, But Amtguard has many many serious game play problems. Too many to go into here.
Let just say the few time a year I go to the SLC amtguard practice are 2 too many already.
FB
Here ya go sharp-tooth!

I got my own ideas on what is wrong with the Amtgard system of play, but I'd like to hear what the more experienced Belegarth fighters think. Go ahead and gimme a list, and I'll give you mine (of Amt). Hell, I might even throw in what I think about Belegarth as a bonus!


I cant/wont speak for Fork,

Based on his feedback to me and conversations over the years. I think it is a lack of familiarity with and the plethra of battlegame rules. Fight after death and everything else. He seems to enjoy ditching. I share his opinnion that a red weapon should require a SOLID hit to a shield to do damage. Additionaly red weapons should to red damage in a ditch too. It would make the boarder think twice about the bum rush.

On the flipside I think Bel has some whacked "rules". Pierce limbs? Barn door punch shields? "Wearing" a shield on ones back? Stab tips?

This is NOT a bash session from me. I dig both and participate in both. In my perfect world there would be a "strictly melee" option. No magic, no projectiles, just in your face combat. Course that kinda sounds like Lord of War coming up in Sept....

L
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Derian » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:45 pm

Loptr wrote:"Wearing" a shield on ones back?


Not to derail the thread, but how is this one weird? I agree more or less with the others (well, not so much huge shields, they're honestly just easier to kill most of the time), but this one seems logical to me. Certainly is has historical and logical precedent. If you wear a shield on your back and someone hits you in that shield, the shield will absorb the blow.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby bangor » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:08 pm

Bangor agrees with Derian on this one. That's one of the reasons Bangor likes bel.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby The Great Gigsby » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:27 pm

I'll bite.

I started out as a teenager in SCA boffer back in 2000, but when my brother came back from college with an armful of kitespar swords and babbling about this wild thing called Amtgard, we decided that we just had to get involved. Amtgard seemed like the coolest thing ever and the first couple years of our now defunct shire are definitely looked fondly upon. There were a solid 20-30 people that showed up and we were all friends on the field. Entire days were dedicated to improvised role-playing scenarios. Our monarchy was determined not by election but by theatrical wars where the surviving general was declared our new Sheriff. The good ol' days.

Our shire made a couple trips to a neighboring group, then a barony, now a grand duchy. Everything seemed cool, except that everyone in a battlegame was a 6th level druid with four points of stoneskin and an enchanted sword. Oookaaay.

Fast forward to my first event, Pac War IV. Everyone's still a 6th level druid except this time they have 8 points of stoneskin, 6 lives, 2 enchanted swords and they're all * off for some reason. But there was still some cool RP stuff happening at night and it was exhilarating to be on the field with 300 people.

And everything kind of went downhill from there. Our group playtested the new rules exclusively; it was a huge improvement in terms of playability. We were isolated from the majority of our kingdom, but that wasn't really problem. We had consistent barony numbers, but never seemed to have enough paperwork to verify it. Weird. Our prime minister "lost" our group funds, 250 some bucks. I continued to go to Pac War for a few more years, but it just stopped jiving with me. It seemed like everyone had stoneskin, everyone had a special colored belt, everyone started off a combo by stabbing you in the face.

After about five years of doing Amtgard, I just said "**** it." A few months later, I read (on e-sam, I think) about Belegarth. I liked the idea of shield checking and armor that was only worth one point. I showed up at Chaos Wars 9, had a blast and never looked back.

---

So with all that exposition, here are my thoughts on Amtgard; the good, the bad, and the bangor:

Jugging is the bomb. I don't know why we don't do it in Belegarth (note to self: start jugging at Bel events)

The midnight ditch is a phenomenon that should be experienced by everyone.

I like how proactive the Amtgard rules committee is and I like that 7th edition is so streamlined. And the Amtgard7 project (with the DUA and all those supplements) is awesome.

Along with that, there are some really incredible and visible leaders in Amtgard that do what they do for the love of the game. Things like the ORK, SKBC, Amtgard7, E-Sam... They all exist because somebody saw some way to make the game better. There are some really noble people in Amtgard.

The class battle system has a lot of potential. I think deep down inside, most of us want to be our pet DnD class. Barbarians in a berserk rage fighting long past their expiration date? That's cool. A skirmishing wizard with a flaming sword running a flank and throwing a "sphere of annihilation" at a warrior tanked out in plate armor? That's pretty **** cool. As a kind of open-source kit for generating live action RP scenarios, Amtgard is quite unique.

But the truth is, the class rules are a nightmare to legislate and take forever to grasp. The rules state that the incantation for a spell has to be said loud and clear enough for the recipient to hear it. I almost NEVER found that to be the case in practice. If people actually followed that rule, there would be half as much verbal magic on the field. I just tuned spell casters out because I could never understand what they were saying.

Taking hits on an honor system is bad enough, keeping track of 30 spell points while mimicking an anti-paladin with 4 points of armor and another 2 points of stoneskin and 2 points of bladesharp. That's impossible. I don't care how good you are or how long you've been playing Amtgard, you. are. cheating. I couldn't believe the degree to which people fleeced their spell-lists, armor count, and life total at events. I remember casting flameblade on a dude with a polearm and arguing with him about the effect of the spell. I just gave up and let him think it did whatever he wanted to believe. Finally, measuring the distance of verbals is playable at 20 feet, but still retarded. At 100 feet? Unplayable. And still retarded.

Having a ladder award system is an awful idea. It promotes greed, self-entitlement, and ultimately, you only get an award or title if you're in the monarch's fighting company so you might as well not even try. The fact that the number of awards your group can dish out depends on your status (shire, barony, duchy, etc.) means that the people most likely to grow the groups population and visibility are only doing it so that they can give more orders or the rose to the people in their fighting company.

Concurrently, Amtgard A&S and RP is absolute **** for the most part. I think it's because people want to put in the bare amount of effort to the get the most return. Why make an awesome leather cuirasse when you can get as many points from a yard of walmart quilted fabric with nickel spots stuck in them? Why sew a historically accurate kyrtle when you can get an order of the hydra for making another ho-hum noodle sword? Why RP a cool character concept if it's just going to make you unpopular? ****, most of the sashes I see aren't even 2 inches wide.

Amtgard need to get over "The Dream" *. The dream is dead. Stop stealing your culture from the SCA. It's wack.

And those are my thoughts.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Loptr » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:48 am

Giggles wrote:Lots of well thought out words….


Dayng Giggles,

That makes your FARBLE FARBLE FARBLE FARBLE FARBLE. Much funnier!

You made some great points and I am glad you can enunciate them.

Amt BattleGames-
My angst with battlegames is primarily the lack of reeves with sac to make the game flow. From your statements, you have experienced a lot of cheese. The BG’s can be a really cool thing for many (not really my cup of tea). You DO have to be willing to learn a lot of crap to be effective in a BG.

Amt Recognition/Award Ladder-
I disagree on the award ladder, yes it can be abused. I think that is one of the great things about the game is the fact that you can be recognized for several things above and beyond kicking * on the field. Currently I have a few friends in Bel that do amazing things for the game but are not fighters, one in particular would be * close to a flame (service) belt in Amt There is no formal way to recognize their efforts. Each realm can pretty much make a knight however it pleases them. For the most part the majority of the knights I have met have been good peeps and have had to do some kinda trial. The lack of consistency in qualification is IMHO a short coming. I can think of a perfect example in my area of a knight that is no knight and a squire who is by far more a knight and is working his butt off for the peerage. The awards ladder has been standardized to being greater consistency in the belting/quals process. Each award is more difficult to get, making a period piece of quality garb will always do better than a noodle sword.

Garb-
One thing I really approve of in Bel is the enforcement on garb. From group to group we can get a lot of bluejeans on the field. Thanks to Griff n Fork I have broken that habit.
A sundress as complete garb? I still don’t know. Some of the printed skirts I have seen are more hideous than a pair of jeans….. The peeps in Amt that have tried have awesome garb. That really makes me want to step up my efforts.

About the shield on back…..
Hrmmm…. Maybe it’s just new to me and I am a curmudgeon. It smells like cheese far more than those that whine about skill on a stick. My indoctrination made slung equipment not counted. I can accept this as perhaps being a legit aspect. I still have issues with punch grip barndoors. Historical blah blah blah…… Course I use a punch grip teardrop…..

Nightlife-
Bel has belly dancing, story telling and general BS’n and caryin on.
Amt has lit ditching at virtually every event I have traveled to. That is a huge * plus for me. Fighting at midnight is absolutely the best hands down. There is still the belly dancing and what not but it doesn’t seem to be as prevalent. One thing Amt does is host bardics where the interested peeps can gather to listen and share their stories, songs and whatnot.
Underage drinking seems more prevalent in Bel

At the end of the day my true colors have shown themselves. I guess I am a “stickjock” preferring to fight over RP. This makes ditching being available almost 24/7 very attractive to me.

L
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Physic » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:13 am

Im hoping that with our ability to influence what goes on at Stonehouse Park that we will have a place to fight in the night. I know a couple of people have already suggested a lighted gladiator type area for night fighting.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Wisp » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:02 am

Good Points in Comparison:

Ladder Award System / Multiple Knight Belts:
This breeds quality. It produces a higher end result as the bar continues to get set higher and higher. I think thats the biggest thing missing in Bel. You can count on Amtgard Knights being very well versed in their area of expertise. Belegarth Knights can be of any where in the success scale. Some places have higher standards, some don't. The biggest example of the success of the system is with the fighting in Amtgard. An average Amtgard fighter usually equals a really * good Belegarth fighter when crossing over. A really good Amtgard fighter usually equals an amazing Belegarth fighter. This is largely because what works and what doesn't is taught and there is a common understanding of the theory in fighting. Having this belt system is what has largely produced this. Bel on the other hand has a different way of going about teaching fighting. Seems to really be changing though, and I think thats a good thing. Really, a national belt system for Bel seems like a logical evolution to me.

Having multiple types of Knighthoods in Amtgard also allows for a more dynamic society than whats in Bel as well. People genuinely get excited over A&S, over doing service and taking the role of leadership for the group. It allows for competition and provides people who aren't primarily stick jocks a place to fit in and be important inside the game. Some of our best and brightest in Amtgard are older ladies or non-stick-talented beanpoles who have an outlet for their talents to shine.

Fighting Rules:
Amtgard falls short in this department in my book. I really really like Bel fighting more than Amtgard fighting. As I stated before, I find a much higher level of skill in Amtgard as a whole, but it's just not as fun. The ability to shield bash when needed really brings the game into a whole other realm. Too many * armor points too. If I could bash etc, I wouldn't mind it so bad, but being forced to keep distance, mixed with the incredible speed at which Amtgard is played, mixed with the ability to sluff up to 6 pts... yeah... :eek:

Battle Games:
For the most part, it's the same. When it comes to class battles... yeah, I hate them. I'll take Bel fights 95% of the time over Amtgard battles. The 5% exception here is for 10 man tournies which are awesome and the most tactically challenging experience in the game. LOVE EM'. There are of course exceptions too... the occassional quest that is really good, and of course, Knoblander which is a 18 hr battle game done a'la a paintball scenario game feel. Theres a consistent plot and point objectives. Since it's so hard to duplicate any type of actual war feeling, that event comes the closest in my mind.

Nightlife:
Amtgard Bardics are tops. Midnight Ditching is simply the best. Other than those two things, its more or less the same. Seems to be more illegal stuff going on at the Bel events I've been to, almost always involving younger kids. Happens at Amtgard too though. I consider it a problem of the sub-culture.

Overall:
I cross-game pretty heavily. I've been more of a Bel player over the last six months, but I still consider myself an Amtgardian and an SCAdian too. If I'm after a fun battle, I'll play Bel. If I'm looking for some really fun one on one stuff, I'm more likely to find it at Amt.

Will

Edit: Fighting Companies vs Units:
Fighting Companies in Amt seem be a little more focused an relevant.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Forkbeard » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:46 am

went out of town, sorry.
Here's my list of Ampt-problems:
1. Archery. In every battle I have ever fought in some one gets shot in the face. In amtgard, they calla hold and everyone stops to see if the guy is ok. This is becuase amtgard doesn't allow head shots and make their arrow just a little less safe than ours.
I believe since every battle witharchery results in at least some accidental head shots, it's stupid to not plan for them. In Bel when youget shot in fce, everybody laughs and combat never stops.
2. "LIGHT COMBAT is a **** lie. Everybody talks about how Amt guys are just as hardcore as we are. Not true. SOME of them are, butthey use weapont ment only to hit light. They hit hard with themand this isn't safe. Another problem here is I can't fight a fat chick or a kid the same way I fight everyone else. And the weapons aren't safe for full contact.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Kegg » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:50 am

Physic wrote:Im hoping that with our ability to influence what goes on at Stonehouse Park that we will have a place to fight in the night. I know a couple of people have already suggested a lighted gladiator type area for night fighting.


Yes. We will have a lighted night fighting area. Still figuring out what the size should be...

Any suggestions.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Dedric » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:58 am

HUGE, Kegg. Size matters! :angel:
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Wisp » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:05 am

Fork,

Must just be Loptr. He is kind of a * and he's in your area. :D Other than that, I can't think of any Amtgard player I know that I consider a fighter thats not more than able to handle their own at my local Bel field, and as far as I know, Arnor's got the rep of being one of the hardest hitting places in Bel. But yes, Amt swords are softer by design, but I've never seen a situation where they were made of fairy dust or just couldn't be felt. Well, unless the guy who had the problem feeling it wasn't just some guy who just got schooled and had ego armor.

The arrow thing is take and give. Amt arrows shoot much better than Bel arrows but I wouldn't want to catch one in the face. On that same note, this last Satruday at Belegarth, we had a brand new guy, joined the game after finding it walking through the park, have his nose broken from a Jav to the face. One of the worst breaks I've seen. Anything going to the head is stupid in my book, I don't care how poofy you make it.

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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Loptr » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:30 am

Forkbeard wrote:Everybody talks about how Amt guys are just as hardcore as we are. Not true. SOME of them are
FB


I think the key diff is this. The majority of the Amt peeps that go to Bel events fit the hard core aspect much better. Coming to an Amt park day, especially outside the “heartland” (texas region), your gonna get a very different cross section of fighting experience.
Every time you have shown up I have tried to talk you out of battlegames…..
I still owe you a pair of Elvis glasses.

L

p.s. Wisp DIAF! (die in a fire)
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Wisp » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:47 am

wow, die in a fire??? Thats kinda harsh man. I'm sorry your friend Forkbeard thinks your a *. You should learn to swing harder or something. LOL How are you gonna represent at away games?

:angel:

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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Thrush Svartehjertet » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:53 pm

""I almost NEVER found that to be the case in practice. If people actually followed that rule, there would be half as much verbal magic on the field.""

We had this prob in Darkon this past year. Mages are already unpopular. But when they stopped reading out loud or whispering we told em it didnt count. I shield bashed one mage to the ground and he said that we both blew up as he had just finished casting, I told him * you I couldnt even hear you casting when I ran up on you. It got settled quickly in senate, mages got told to stop cheating. I really had no idea Amptgard was so complicated. I thought Darkon was crazy, but our rules seem to be REALLY basic compared to theirs. People pick it up quick and It's not complicated. I don't think I could deal with that much RP without the true full contact aspects of shield bashing and grappling and such...

Guess that's why I stick to Darkon/Dag/Bel style combat... Whatever floats boats right?

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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Oisin » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:06 pm

Wisp wrote:The arrow thing is take and give. Amt arrows shoot much better than Bel arrows but I wouldn't want to catch one in the face. On that same note, this last Satruday at Belegarth, we had a brand new guy, joined the game after finding it walking through the park, have his nose broken from a Jav to the face. One of the worst breaks I've seen. Anything going to the head is stupid in my book, I don't care how poofy you make it.



The broken nose wasn't due to the javelin and arrows being face legal rule, it was due to the fact that Arnor doesn't run weapons check every day. If that javelin had been checked, it would have been failed so hardcore. When I checked it afterwords (I still don't know whose javelin it was), my first thought was, "Oh my God, no wonder that hurt someone." You could feel core straight through the tip, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was above max weight.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Wisp » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:29 pm

But the fact remains... had heads been an off limits target location, his balls would have gotten the ol' junk shot with the cored jav and his nose would still be in the middle of his face.

oh, b y the way... AH HA... SO IT WAS YOUR JAV OISIN!!!! Good attempt at trying to toss the blame elsewhere to the "unknown" player on the field... tsk tsk... you brute.

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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Oisin » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:38 pm

No . . . I had just gotten there when it happened, hadn't even taken my weapons out of the bag. Besides, I like building my javs really light instead of really heavy. Like 9 oz, not the 20 some oz that this thing weighed.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Forkbeard » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:16 pm

God * it, my other post didn't make it!!
Anyway, this thread isn't to bash amtgard.
It is to talk about why I would not RUN an Amtgard group. I like Amtgard and it's people(most of them). I don't think thier organisation should be destroyed or anything. I just would join or run one.
Will, head shots with flying **** RULES. If you don't like it, you can get a helmet. That is the single biggest reason I do not like the Amt system.
Next is the weapons. Pool Noodle is not safe for full contact fighting. It's ok for light combat, BUT Amtgard people who actually hit hard enough to feel it are practicing full contact fighting while the rest of the people on the Amt field are practicing LIGHT combat. I think this is VERY dangerous. THe weapons break down to deap spots too fast and unpredicably. I realize that SOME amt-folk make and use good weapon, but since it is not REQUIRED by the system, there will always be people building unsafe **** and getting it on the feild. It's only checked for LIGHT combat, after all. When you guys are slamming the **** out of each other( and I know you do) is when things get scary.
Lastly, MAGIC IS **** STUPID. Add that to the fact that I've never heard amage cast a spell so you could understand him and you can see my problem. I know you can ignore stuff you can't understand, but I can't understand any of the gobbly-gook those **** are yelling and when I ignore everything I can't understand, Iget called a cheater. I see this as a major game flow problem.
Again, this isn't a bash on amtgard, it's an answer to the question of why I wouldn't run a group.
If I ran a group,my attitude would trickle down to my players no matter how much I tried to prevent it. That would be good for neither me nor a fledgling group.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Alunsun » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:32 pm

6 Scout/ 3 Assassin



Amtgard ftw -_- /fist-pump




Fist- pump sounds dirty :/
how much about a nike dunk ??every one know??
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Sir Killian » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:39 pm

Wisp wrote:Good Points in Comparison:
The biggest example of the success of the system is with the fighting in Amtgard. An average Amtgard fighter usually equals a really * good Belegarth fighter when crossing over. A really good Amtgard fighter usually equals an amazing Belegarth fighter. This is largely because what works and what doesn't is taught and there is a common understanding of the theory in fighting.


hmm in my experience it is the exact opposite with the exception of the few warlords... pound for pound i would say our fighting skill is a much higher par than amtgard... also fighting in amtgard focuses on 1v1 not field battle...
Sir Spyn or Sir Brennon can kill 100's of people in a row in 1v1 but how many can they kill in a field battle (i use those those two as an example and in no way mean any disrespect) where as i can kill 20 people in a field battle and maybe 15 people in a row in 1v1 if im lucky.... its just a way of fighting... we shine in melee where as amtgardians shine in tournaments

Having multiple types of Knighthoods in Amtgard also allows for a more dynamic society than whats in Bel as well. People genuinely get excited over A&S, over doing service and taking the role of leadership for the group. It allows for competition and provides people who aren't primarily stick jocks a place to fit in and be important inside the game. Some of our best and brightest in Amtgard are older ladies or non-stick-talented beanpoles who have an outlet for their talents to shine.


as a knight of belegarth i agree with this portion of your statement... however the knighthood system in amtgard has its own problems mostly noted its political machine issues... our knights try to strive in all areas of the game....and your right some are not as good as others and some are undeserving of the title....
but that is to say that its the same in amtgard
Edit: Fighting Companies vs Units:
Fighting Companies in Amt seem be a little more focused an relevant.

this one got me asking? what do you mean... is it because units are both companies and houses in belegarth? just wondering as i am a national unit leader and i just want to understand your logic on this one....


thanks
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Wisp » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:20 pm

Fighting:
This of course varies by location. The more remote areas or newer parks are typically not going to have much by way of stick. I'm pretty well traveled in both games. When it comes to organizational level of skill as a whole, I stand by my statement on level of stick. Until very recently, there hasn't been a very game wide "standard" of good technique. In fact, I'd say that it's still not yet very spread among the masses. Thats not to say theres not talent or good fighters, just that the average decent stick guy in Amt tends to be good based on theory. The average good fighter in Bel seems more of a natural talent type fighter. The high end guys from Bel a'la Peter the Quick are using a lot of Amt-influence technique. That alone speaks volumes to me.

I don't really follow your logic though regarding the tourney skill level vs field skill level. One on one fighting is a pretty good measure of stick. You have no outside influence other than the person your fighting. Field fighting is chock full of things you can in no way control. Rag was a great example of that to me. So many people crammed into one place so tightly, the newest of newbs and the most experienced of warlords were killing and dying at about the same pace. All that said, yes, Bel field battles are much more fun than Amt field battles and I think Amt tourneys are more fun. Lotta truth to your assessment in my opinion. I'm more of a fan of Bel fighting.

Knights:
Yep, bs happens in both systems, but with it being a national standard, those who do sneek in, suffer for it. Usually horribly. In Bel, if I wanna dub myself a Knight, I can. No one respects it, but no one particularly cares either. I don't know off hand the avearge length of time in game (Amt) to achieve Knighthood, but I'd guess it's at least 7 years till your even close to the zone. Main point I was making here is produces quality. I've never personally met a Knight that wasn't well rounded in most aspects of the game and a subject matter expert in their field. I have met quite a few Knights in Bel and Dag that were like... ooooooook.

Fighting Companies:
Yeah, pretty much the combination of households and companies in Bel. Units in Bel field together in mass battles. Numbers matter much more so than in Amtgard. In Amtgard, if a company is too big, it's a big ol' red flag of suck. One of our most popular events is banner wars which is a company competition. Bridge wars is another good example of bragging rights. Same with 10 man tournies, jugging tournies. None of these things require recruiting sub-quality for your company people in order to field. In big Bel battles, it's adventagous to have more fighters on the field. Joining a company with a big rep in Amt is usually a big deal and the game revolves around around your affiliation. Its more free and fun in Bel. The Uruk hai in Bel is a great example. Awesome unit, great idenity, no matter how big it gets, it's just cool. In contrast in Amtgard you have the Saracens. I've seen more than one Saracen bar code belt favor.

None of that is necessarily a good thing or better thing, just different. I think it makes for a much less friendly atmosphere at times (Amt). Rag was sickly sweet with acceptance and good attitudes. Some amtgard events are * near biker gangs in * contests. Not so much these days, but when I first came in it seemed that way to me. LOL. Hope that helps.

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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby The Great Gigsby » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:03 pm

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that in both games, the overall level of stick is generally determined by region. I also think it's worth noting that Belegarth as it's own entity is quite young compared to Amtgard. I'd say it's still in the 90's in relative terms.

I maintain that a ladder system of awards is only good for fluffing one's ego.

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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Winfang » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:02 am

Wisp wrote:Fighting:
This of course varies by location. The more remote areas or newer parks are typically not going to have much by way of stick. I'm pretty well traveled in both games. When it comes to organizational level of skill as a whole, I stand by my statement on level of stick. Until very recently, there hasn't been a very game wide "standard" of good technique. In fact, I'd say that it's still not yet very spread among the masses. Thats not to say theres not talent or good fighters, just that the average decent stick guy in Amt tends to be good based on theory. The average good fighter in Bel seems more of a natural talent type fighter. The high end guys from Bel a'la Peter the Quick are using a lot of Amt-influence technique. That alone speaks volumes to me.

Prior to this renaissance of teaching and training, good fighters in Belegarth stumbled their way into it. Some high end guys now are using SCA-influenced techniques, such as Physic.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Zeldrine Cold » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:44 am

Winfang wrote:Prior to this renaissance of teaching and training, good fighters in Belegarth stumbled their way into it. Some high end guys now are using SCA-influenced techniques, such as Physic.


I've watched your fighting vids from the SCA and Bel. You fall into the same category Winfang. Thanks for being modest but it's true.

I have fought with both groups and enjoy them both. I have met several knights from both sports and think that in Amt the various levels that you can attain knighthood in is totally different than how you attain it in Bel. All in all though the quality of knights and their attiudes are the exact same in both games.

As for fighting technique I see that both groups are now aproximating the same level of shots. This is just from my point of view of course. I see small variations of techniques due to, I believe, the weapons and force needed to be put behind them to cause sufficient force damage.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Winfang » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:06 pm

Some of the high-end fighters within Belegarth have little or no outside influence. I think the primary examples of these would be Galin, Soth and other Numenorian knights.

Amtgard's system for recognizing fighting skill is something that I'm a bit jealous of. I like have a measuring stick and not eyeballing things. The training methods they use also nice because I love to learn.

While I not sure the exact reason SKBC came around, I would venture to guess the younger generation was very vocal in their desire to gain the upper level awards that seemed out of reach and the vets responded with an event geared to training. This is similar to Midrealm's ToC within SCA. The drive for the new blood to gain formalize recognition and a test skill amongst the best is a very powerful driver.

Belegarth lack of formalized recognition and focus on melees taken our fighters on a different path.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby arthon » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:38 pm

Winfang wrote:While I not sure the exact reason SKBC came around, I would venture to guess the younger generation was very vocal in their desire to gain the upper level awards that seemed out of reach and the vets responded with an event geared to training.


As a member of FWACK (SKBC's presiding body (It originally stood for Four Warlords and a Crown Knight)), I can tell you that it was started by some guys in the central Colorado Amtgard chapter as a way to get those who were on the cusp of badassery to reach their potential. It still serves that purpose, but has expanded to include all the beginning and mid-level fighters who wish to learn from the game's most advanced veterans.


That being said ... onto the topic at hand.

Giggles: Belegarth was a direct split from Dag ... I'm not certain that y'all can't claim to have inherited their fighting heritage which stretches all the way back to '77.

As to the differences between all the LARPs: I really prefer the Dag/Bel fighting style ... don't care much for Amtgard battlegames. That being said, I maintain that Amtgard battlegames along with the 'ladder' award system is what has allowed Amtgard to expand over the entire United States. It allows all sorts to play and get good at the game (thus finding some validation in putting so much time into it). For example ... if a 100 pound 16 year-old boy went out to Dag and just got mowed down time and time and time again, it's not very fulfilling (at least for most 100# 16-year-olds). He can go to Amtgard, get recognized by the king/queen on a regular basis in front of all of his peers for doing outstanding embroidery (if that's what he liked to do) and then can go on the battlefield and play a mage (also accruing awards and recognition if he does that well). He can gain further recognition by being paged by a squire of a famous knight, thus working himself into a belt-line which can then garner him supporters for his inevitable trek towards knighthood.

So, in summary:
Dag/Bel = meat and potatoes
Amtgard = crack

Which one is better for you? Which one is more addictive?

-arthon

P.S. Hope to see y'all at SKBC.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Poo » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:11 am

Forkbeard wrote:Lastly, MAGIC IS **** STUPID. MAGIC IS **** STUPID. MAGIC IS **** STUPID. MAGIC IS **** STUPID. MAGIC IS **** STUPID. MAGIC IS **** STUPID. MAGIC IS **** STUPID.
FB


This is the main reason i started Bel over amtgard. I got tired of being a big bad barbarian and getting hit with a lightning bolt every single **** life. which happened to me quite often, we had a **** ton of wizards at my park. I hated not knowing what wizards were verbally casting on me, and i hated pass without trace (lawl i's invisibel). Basically, if you can run and throw foam balls, you can kill anyone.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Arrakis » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:19 pm

Attach a couple of calc questions or kinematics problems to little cards and have heralds hang out near the spellcasters with 'em.

Anytime you want to cast a spell, get out your pencil and paper, boyo; time to do some thinkin'.

When the herald says you got it right, you get to cast the spell! Yay! Except now the battle is over.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Forkbeard » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:15 pm

Arrakis, you're a geinus.
That's the best majic system I've ever heard of.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Poo » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:06 pm

Lol, i'd play wizard then... gotta work on my calculus before my ap test and mech engineering in college. It would test your mental capacity rather than your pitching arm.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby debuenzo » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:09 pm

pfft....as if amtgard wasn't already a bunch of nerds
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Poo » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 pm

If amtgard is all nerds, then what is belegarth? People still color themselves green and put on elf ears.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Oisin » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:21 pm

. . . and others cringe and try not to be in pictures with people who are painted green and wearing elf ears.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Crynolyn » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:35 pm

I'm so getting a picture of us together
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I really like how Amtgard takes new players under a wing, and how they recognize the people who run the game.

Seems to me that the night life at Amt events is lacking in entertainment. (Exception; Karaoke at Rakis.. that was f-n hilarious.) Dag/Bel events have better evening garb, and more themed parties going on. I strongly prefer our field battles to ditching. It's so much more exciting. Amtgard court bores me to tears, but I can see that it's an important part of the recognition.

Is it just me, or does Amtgard seem to have an unusually high amount of homoerotisism ? (Maybe that's an Iron Mountains thing ?)

Amtgard's "Pie-In-The-Face" is an excellent concept ! Terrific fund raising tool.

Do you guys still have that weekly radio show ?
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Brennon EH » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:42 am

The homo eroticism is definitely an Iron Mountains thing.

It's fine to be homosexual... But those guys are just GAY.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Thrush Svartehjertet » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:42 am

""It would test your mental capacity rather than your pitching arm""

A rather clever dude in Darkon figured out a few years ago that he could sew his spell balls into the shape of footballs... Then over stuff them with cloth to make them weigh close to a pound... Now I get blown up at 40 yards by the ****. It's like magical ICBMs... How I hates him. HATES! *shakes fist* * creativity.

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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby arthon » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:05 am

Crynolyn wrote:Seems to me that the night life at Amt events is lacking in entertainment. (Exception; Karaoke at Rakis.. that was f-n hilarious.) Dag/Bel events have better evening garb, and more themed parties going on. I strongly prefer our field battles to ditching. It's so much more exciting. Amtgard court bores me to tears, but I can see that it's an important part of the recognition.

Is it just me, or does Amtgard seem to have an unusually high amount of homoerotisism ? (Maybe that's an Iron Mountains thing ?)

Amtgard's "Pie-In-The-Face" is an excellent concept ! Terrific fund raising tool.

Do you guys still have that weekly radio show ?


1) Radio show folded, might be back.
2) Homoerotisism? Seriously? No. That doesn't happen most places. Colorado guys have been known for their deviant sexual proclivities for two decades now. I figured you were into all that stuff since you live there as well. ;) And of course, the naked pit-fighting at Ragnarok isn't homoerotic at all.
3) Amtgard court in large venues is extremely boring, but necessary. In smaller venues, most of the people are very involved and interested - it becomes more of an RP opportunity, then.
4) Lack of entertainment at night: Do you mean organized entertainment, or the kind we make ourselves? Cause if it's the first, I agree with you.
5) Glad to see you still around .. haven't talked to you in three or four years.

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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Crynolyn » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:15 pm

This is the first I've heard of the naked pit fighting at Ragnarok ! When/where did that happen ?

Arthon, good to see you in here. I'm still very active in Belegarth & Dagorhir, I'm not active in Amtgard. Northern Holdfast practices the same time as Mordor. Rakis is usually the same time as Geddon. I have my priorities ;)

But I was at Salt Wars a little last year...
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Winfang » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:34 pm

That was something like Rag 6. Talk to Zamarac, the old Khan of of the Kutuguri. If I remember, he was one of the participants. Donal also knows a thing or two about it.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Athron » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:07 pm

Arthon just blew my mind...

"when the hell did I post that? and how do I know anything about Amtgard culture?"

But then I learned the amazing powers of reading left-to-right, in order. :D
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby arthon » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:14 pm

Athron wrote:Arthon just blew my mind...

"when the hell did I post that? and how do I know anything about Amtgard culture?"

But then I learned the amazing powers of reading left-to-right, in order. :D


I just did the same double-take myself. Athron, nice to meet you. I also go by Arty.

Yeah ... Winfang's correct. Rag 6 sounds about right. It was 1991 on some pagan/wiccan campsite in New York where they actually had a 'thunderdome' made of wood. They had pit fighting at night surrounded by tiki torches. Only one weapon allowed per fighter. Required to grapple. Only allowed to wear a breech cloth or less. Some chose 'less'.

That Ragnarock was awesome. The naked pit fighting, however, was disturbing.

Of course, the * Romans had a keg at their camp where all were invited. Of course, one of those b*stards played Jane's Addiction's "Been Caught Stealing" on a loop by the keg the entire weekend. Took me a decade before I could listen to that song again.

Makes me sad that the schism happened.

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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:44 pm

That must have been the Brushwood campsite. The Buffalo realm had a camp-out there in August, and some people in attendance weren't prepared for the nudity. Because in addition to being a pagan/wiccan campsite, it's also a nudist campsite. Which would explain the Rag 6 thunderdome, I guess.

Anyway....Amtgard!
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Oisin » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:48 pm

Crynolyn . . . are you kidding . . . there's been homoerotic action and naked mud fighting for at least the past couple Rags . . . it's just been girl on girl, and on top of Militia hill, so people cheer instead of cringing.

So, now that you know . . . :angel:
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Ard Laech
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An Fhírinne in aghaidh an tSaoil--Truth against the world.
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Oisin
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Crynolyn » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:25 am

I don't consider girl on girl mud wrestling to be homoerotic, that's what I call entertainment ;)
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby Oisin » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:12 am

Indeed. :D
Oisín Leathshúileach ua Duibhne
Ard Laech
Fíanna Cú Ruadh

An Fhírinne in aghaidh an tSaoil--Truth against the world.
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Re: Folkbeard, Amtgard, and death

Postby arthon » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:47 am

Crynolyn wrote:I don't consider girl on girl mud wrestling to be homoerotic, that's what I call entertainment ;)


QFT



But since we's talking about issues with Amtgard, I noticed on y'all's wiki that many realms formally recognize 'knights' now.

I believe that the path to knighthood has always been one of Amtgard's greatest strengths as a game (cause it makes people strive to excel) and also one of its greatest weaknesses (cause of the intense political infighting and shenanigans that result from the process of getting the title).

Has it been a mixed bag for y'all as well?

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