improving combat

HACS, SCA, Dag, Amtg, NERO, and other similar sports discussion.

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improving combat

Postby theancient » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:17 am

Some thoughts on improving another game, thought I'd share them here. Hope no one minds.
"This is an interesting philosophical question.

Is it more realistic to allow people to use whatever is effective, as they do in real war, or to restrict the allowable equipment to specific criteria? That is, will ££££££££ more closely resemble real make-believe fighting if we allow people to win by any means necessary, or not?

If we really wanted to make ££££££££ less cheesy, here's how we'd do it:

1. Flails must have 12oz+ heads and not exceed 36" overall.

2. Shields may not have faces larger than 8 square feet.

3. Weapons intended to emulate blades with discrete edges must weigh at least one pound (16oz) for single-handed weapons, two pounds (32oz) for two-handed weapons. These weapons are "slashing/hacking weapons."

4. Weapons intended to emulate clubs, maces, morningstars, goedendags and the like must weigh at least 2lb for single-handed weapons and 4lb for two-handed weapons. These weapons are "mass weapons." (Axes are also included in this category.)

5. Armor must be constructed from steel, iron, brass, bronze, or hardened 12oz+ leather.

6. Plate armor is proof against arrows, single-handed thrusts, and single-handed slashing/hacking attacks.

7. All other armor is proof against single-handed slashing/hacking attacks.

8. Helmets and gorgets are required and head and neck hits are legal.

9. All garb and weapons must be drawn from or clearly inspired by historical and fantasy sources that have been pre-approved.

10. No hit, from any weapon (arrows included) shall be considered "good" unless it lands with substantial force. Archers may no longer call their shots."
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Re: improving combat

Postby Tails » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:45 am

That's not going to fly well with anyone here
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Re: improving combat

Postby theancient » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:19 am

Fair enough...just thought I'd share. If this wouldn't fly here than frankly it confirms my thoughts on the matter.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Tails » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:29 am

don't take it personal, but they way we fight, might be defined a bit but I doubt it will change into anything like you have stated, recently a vote ten in to make green (stabbed) limbs count twoards death, but that was voted out. It would have made archers way to powerful. look at the plate thing you were talking about. everyone and their mother would be walking around with a plate chest piece or braces, and that is the only thing to go through that? red or double green? It would just through off the fight mechanics too much.
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Re: improving combat

Postby debuenzo » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:34 am

i would probably give it a shot if this were developed.
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Re: improving combat

Postby theancient » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:51 am

for the record, not my idea this. I'm just trolling (in a nice way) to see what the feelings are on this idea. I doubt either group will change to these rules...I'm just gauging resistance and acceptance.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Derian » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:02 pm

It sounds a lot like the SCA.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Slagar » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:33 pm

That was my reaction, too. It's basically the SCA, as far as I can tell. Few differences, but yeah.

Part of the reason that virtually no one would support this is that it would require way too much investment to play. The reason we use the gear we do is because forcing people to drop a few hundred dollars on equipment is a huge barrier to entry for our main demographics. It works fine for the SCA crowd, they're the sort who can afford it. Right now, I'm a college student. You get the idea.

Other than that, though, I'd be game. I'm a stick-jock, for better or worse, and this sounds like it'd be interesting, if nothing else. I'm not sure I'd prefer it, but I'd try it.
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Re: improving combat

Postby theancient » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:42 pm

Slagar wrote:That was my reaction, too. It's basically the SCA, as far as I can tell. Few differences, but yeah.

Actually still pretty far of from what the SCA does. For starters they have an assumed minimum armour and this is an armour as worn standard.

Part of the reason that virtually no one would support this is that it would require way too much investment to play. The reason we use the gear we do is because forcing people to drop a few hundred dollars on equipment is a huge barrier to entry for our main demographics. It works fine for the SCA crowd, they're the sort who can afford it. Right now, I'm a college student. You get the idea.

sadly that seems to be the biggest problem with this.

Other than that, though, I'd be game. I'm a stick-jock, for better or worse, and this sounds like it'd be interesting, if nothing else. I'm not sure I'd prefer it, but I'd try it.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Cib » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:47 pm

Sounds interesting, kinda like a game bridging SCA & Boffer. Is the only required armor a helm?
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Re: improving combat

Postby Winfang » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:05 pm

Just because this system allows for head shots does not make it SCA.

The larger dollar figures everyone associates with SCA is from people pricing out their dream armor. The armor required in SCA to participate can be made from various materials such as plastic, carpet, leather, steel, aluminum, etc., many of which can be acquired for free or a small fee. The only requirement that cannot be made out of alternate materials is the helm and the cost for a new basic helm on Ebay is $60 plus shipping. Also, the cost of an SCA weapon is less then then the cost of the equivalent Edhellen.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Ilariia Bulochnika » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:53 pm

Winfang wrote:Just because this system allows for head shots does not make it SCA.

The larger dollar figures everyone associates with SCA is from people pricing out their dream armor. The armor required in SCA to participate can be made from various materials such as plastic, carpet, leather, steel, aluminum, etc., many of which can be acquired for free or a small fee. The only requirement that cannot be made out of alternate materials is the helm and the cost for a new basic helm on Ebay is $60 plus shipping. Also, the cost of an SCA weapon is less then then the cost of the equivalent Edhellen.


QFT.

I joined SCA in college and could have easily afforded to start swinging rattan after a month of saving beer money. Plus, your local realm usually will have loaner gear until you can afford your own. I ended up spending more money when I switched to Bel, then I had in SCA. College is definitely not an excuse to rule out rattan.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Isk » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:05 pm

The following is just my feedback for such a system. Done right (i.e. adopting all of my suggestions, of course ;) ) I would be very interested in trying such a thing, but do not think it should be imposed on Belegarth; it's just a new system that is more martially realistic than bel/dag or SCA.

theancient wrote:1. Flails must have 12oz+ heads and not exceed 36" overall.

Flails already sting like crazy. SCA doesn't even allow flails (or they didn't anyway) because they could cave in a 14ga helmet without much weight.
2. Shields may not have faces larger than 8 square feet.

lol. Don't you want a weight requirement now, though?
3. Weapons intended to emulate blades with discrete edges must weigh at least one pound (16oz) for single-handed weapons, two pounds (32oz) for two-handed weapons. These weapons are "slashing/hacking weapons."

Making weapons heavier so they are more realistic is only part of the equation. Wind resistance is massively different with our gear, slipping on the blade is very different, side vs. edge flex is very different, etc. Weight minimums are important, but 'realistically' weighted foam padded swords may not emulate the performance of a real sword as well as a padded sword that is not as 'realistically' heavy.
4. Weapons intended to emulate clubs, maces, morningstars, goedendags and the like must weigh at least 2lb for single-handed weapons and 4lb for two-handed weapons. These weapons are "mass weapons." (Axes are also included in this category.)

I like the idea of requiring 'mass' weapons to be heavier and have further limited flex.
5. Armor must be constructed from steel, iron, brass, bronze, or hardened 12oz+ leather.

Most of this is already required in Bel, but you would ignore unhardened leather. What about a 'realistic' padded jack, if we're going all super-realistic?
6. Plate armor is proof against arrows, single-handed thrusts, and single-handed slashing/hacking attacks.

Very gameplay unbalancing, but could provide greater realism IF proper attacks against plate armored foes are encouraged (joints, neck, backs of legs) and allowed. This, of course, leads to safety concerns. This is where it's not at all like the SCA because the SCA focuses on single-handed hacking/slashing attacks that cut through plate armor.
7. All other armor is proof against single-handed slashing/hacking attacks.

This makes single-handed weapons pretty useless and armor pretty mandatory unless the above types of attacks or two-handed weapons are the primary focus of the game.
8. Helmets and gorgets are required and head and neck hits are legal.

If you are still going to encourage unarmored fighters, which seems unlikely from 7 & 8, then non-historical helmets and gorgets would need to be allowed. I like the idea of including the head, but it needs to be adequately protected.
9. All garb and weapons must be drawn from or clearly inspired by historical and fantasy sources that have been pre-approved.

Yeah, so the fantasy gestapo gets to approve whether it's Tolkien enough? Unless you restrict to history, which is already open to enough interpretation, this is silly and authoritarian. Just make it a sport with prescribed uniforms.
10. No hit, from any weapon (arrows included) shall be considered "good" unless it lands with substantial force. Archers may no longer call their shots."

'Substantial' sounds like an invitation for all kinds of rhinohiding to me. Arrows would have to hit harder (everyone's helmeted=might work), can't hurt steel plated fighters anyway so maybe archers wouldn't need to call shots, but there is a good reason why they do it now.

All in all, something like this is interesting. I most like the idea of including the head as a target. While you're at it, better start including hands and feet as historically they were both very important targets as well.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Slagar » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:46 pm

Brenna Haldana wrote:
I joined SCA in college and could have easily afforded to start swinging rattan after a month of saving beer money. Plus, your local realm usually will have loaner gear until you can afford your own. I ended up spending more money when I switched to Bel, then I had in SCA. College is definitely not an excuse to rule out rattan.


I stand corrected. I was repeating a pretty much consensus view that I'd been told, on more than one occasion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Not the first time, nor the last. Out of curiousity, since I am actually pretty interested in SCA fighting, how exactly did you go about outfitting yourself for SCA? I'm looking for ideas, sources for materials, construction techniques, prices, whatever comes to mind. PM me, if you would. I don't want to highjack the thread. Thanks, and apologies for the misinformation.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Arrakis » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:58 pm

Interesting.


Also, you can post the names of other games on our forums. We won't get mad at you. Also, Belegarth is 9 letters, Dagorhir is 8, Amtgard is 7, Darkon is 6, Quest and MELEE are 5, and NERO is 4, so, it's generally pretty easy to figure out which game we're talking about.



This list seems like a good set of reasons why things AREN'T more realistic. I'd love for more people to understand that THAT is the way armor actually works and that they should quit trying to nerf (hardened) leather or say that single green should only go through leather or something. Plate is PROOF against EVERYTHING, or * near, especially when worn over a good aketon. A poleax may damage you, a warhammer might break small plates, and if they can get the tip into the articulation, you can be stabbed. But shots from an arming sword are going to do nothing. And even chain+gambeson is going to ignore most sword strokes, at least for a time.

Anyway, an interesting list. I'd not mind seeing Dag adopt a max length rule for their flails the same way Bel has (40" for us) and I'd love to see Bel implement a min flail head weight rule like Dag's and I wouldn't mind a bit seeing unhardened 12 oz leather removed from the list of passing armor in both sports (I play both, by the way). Too, I'd LOVE 10 to go through (calling your shots? Lame) and seeing plate proof against arrows wouldn't hurt my feeling any.

My thoughts.



Also, Slagar: I've sewn myself a gambeson and am working on a full set of hardened leather limbs with a plastic brig body armor. With a basic helm, I'm gonna be fully armored for under 250, and that's WAY more armor than you really need to start. I've already been fighting at practices with (ill-fitting) loaner armor!
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Re: improving combat

Postby The Great Gigsby » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:10 pm

This idea kind of sucks.

I think the pros of wearing a min. thickness cuirass (immunity to every weapon except a two handed red/green) far outweigh the cons. That's why I kind of like the SCA 'assumed armor' standard. Not everyone in the bronze age could afford adequate armor and equipment like they can nowadays.

Archery is pretty doomed in this hypothetical game.

theancient wrote:goedendags
:D
theancient wrote:If we really wanted to make ££££££££ less cheesy, here's how we'd do it:

1. All intelligent* participants** must fight with an absurdly counterbalanced two handed sword or spear. The reason for this is because:

2. Everyone with a survival instinct must also wear plate armor constructed from steel, iron, brass, bronze which is invulnerable to all attacks except from the above mentioned absurdly counterbalanced two handed swords and spears.

* Intelligence in this case is pretty relative. I mean, why are you playing ££££££££, when you could be joining the SCA, Belegarth, Dagorhir, Amtgard, Melee, or sitting at home playing World of ££££££££?

** Participants with no sense (hereinafter referred to as scrubs) have the option of fighting with one handed weapons and bows, both of which are completely ineffective against everyone wearing plate armor. I mean seriously, you might as well just give up. Scrubs also have the option of wearing non-plate armor which will confer protection from fellow scrubs.
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Re: improving combat

Postby theancient » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:54 pm

Arrakis wrote:Interesting.


Also, you can post the names of other games on our forums. We won't get mad at you. Also, Belegarth is 9 letters, Dagorhir is 8, Amtgard is 7, Darkon is 6, Quest and MELEE are 5, and NERO is 4, so, it's generally pretty easy to figure out which game we're talking about.

yeah I figured you could...just being polite. Just curious but do you mean the maui quest?

This list seems like a good set of reasons why things AREN'T more realistic. I'd love for more people to understand that THAT is the way armor actually works and that they should quit trying to nerf (hardened) leather or say that single green should only go through leather or something. Plate is PROOF against EVERYTHING, or * near, especially when worn over a good aketon. A poleax may damage you, a warhammer might break small plates, and if they can get the tip into the articulation, you can be stabbed. But shots from an arming sword are going to do nothing. And even chain+gambeson is going to ignore most sword strokes, at least for a time.

Agreed

Anyway, an interesting list. I'd not mind seeing Dag adopt a max length rule for their flails the same way Bel has (40" for us) and I'd love to see Bel implement a min flail head weight rule like Dag's and I wouldn't mind a bit seeing unhardened 12 oz leather removed from the list of passing armor in both sports (I play both, by the way). Too, I'd LOVE 10 to go through (calling your shots? Lame) and seeing plate proof against arrows wouldn't hurt my feeling any.

My thoughts.



Also, Slagar: I've sewn myself a gambeson and am working on a full set of hardened leather limbs with a plastic brig body armor. With a basic helm, I'm gonna be fully armored for under 250, and that's WAY more armor than you really need to start. I've already been fighting at practices with (ill-fitting) loaner armor!
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Re: improving combat

Postby Arrakis » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:04 pm

theancient wrote:
Arrakis wrote:Interesting.


Also, you can post the names of other games on our forums. We won't get mad at you. Also, Belegarth is 9 letters, Dagorhir is 8, Amtgard is 7, Darkon is 6, Quest and MELEE are 5, and NERO is 4, so, it's generally pretty easy to figure out which game we're talking about.


yeah I figured you could...just being polite. Just curious but do you mean the maui quest?

Arrakis wrote:This list seems like a good set of reasons why things AREN'T more realistic. I'd love for more people to understand that THAT is the way armor actually works and that they should quit trying to nerf (hardened) leather or say that single green should only go through leather or something. Plate is PROOF against EVERYTHING, or * near, especially when worn over a good aketon. A poleax may damage you, a warhammer might break small plates, and if they can get the tip into the articulation, you can be stabbed. But shots from an arming sword are going to do nothing. And even chain+gambeson is going to ignore most sword strokes, at least for a time.


Agreed


FTFY.

No, I mean the New England Quest. But yeah.
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Re: improving combat

Postby theancient » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:10 pm

iskatyel wrote:The following is just my feedback for such a system. Done right (i.e. adopting all of my suggestions, of course ;) ) I would be very interested in trying such a thing, but do not think it should be imposed on Belegarth; it's just a new system that is more martially realistic than bel/dag or SCA.

I for one am not suggesting that this be imposed on anyone...its just a work in progress...there are places where there is no Dag/Bel/Amt/etc.

theancient wrote:1. Flails must have 12oz+ heads and not exceed 36" overall.

Flails already sting like crazy. SCA doesn't even allow flails (or they didn't anyway) because they could cave in a 14ga helmet without much weight.
The SCA has started allowing flails again, just so you.
2. Shields may not have faces larger than 8 square feet.

lol. Don't you want a weight requirement now, though?
Actually this is a daft rule, upon reflection...
3. Weapons intended to emulate blades with discrete edges must weigh at least one pound (16oz) for single-handed weapons, two pounds (32oz) for two-handed weapons. These weapons are "slashing/hacking weapons."

Making weapons heavier so they are more realistic is only part of the equation. Wind resistance is massively different with our gear, slipping on the blade is very different, side vs. edge flex is very different, etc. Weight minimums are important, but 'realistically' weighted foam padded swords may not emulate the performance of a real sword as well as a padded sword that is not as 'realistically' heavy. Personally I feel that these weights are still a bit low, but I don't think raising them any higher will make a dramatic difference.
4. Weapons intended to emulate clubs, maces, morningstars, goedendags and the like must weigh at least 2lb for single-handed weapons and 4lb for two-handed weapons. These weapons are "mass weapons." (Axes are also included in this category.)

I like the idea of requiring 'mass' weapons to be heavier and have further limited flex.
5. Armor must be constructed from steel, iron, brass, bronze, or hardened 12oz+ leather.

Most of this is already required in Bel, but you would ignore unhardened leather. What about a 'realistic' padded jack, if we're going all super-realistic? Oh yes most definitively we should include padded armours...always bugged me that these games didn't allow them.
6. Plate armor is proof against arrows, single-handed thrusts, and single-handed slashing/hacking attacks.

Very gameplay unbalancing, but could provide greater realism IF proper attacks against plate armored foes are encouraged (joints, neck, backs of legs) and allowed. This, of course, leads to safety concerns. This is where it's not at all like the SCA because the SCA focuses on single-handed hacking/slashing attacks that cut through plate armor.
7. All other armor is proof against single-handed slashing/hacking attacks.

This makes single-handed weapons pretty useless and armor pretty mandatory unless the above types of attacks or two-handed weapons are the primary focus of the game.
8. Helmets and gorgets are required and head and neck hits are legal.

If you are still going to encourage unarmored fighters, which seems unlikely from 7 & 8, then non-historical helmets and gorgets would need to be allowed. I like the idea of including the head, but it needs to be adequately protected.
9. All garb and weapons must be drawn from or clearly inspired by historical and fantasy sources that have been pre-approved.

Yeah, so the fantasy gestapo gets to approve whether it's Tolkien enough? Unless you restrict to history, which is already open to enough interpretation, this is silly and authoritarian. Just make it a sport with prescribed uniforms. To true, see this is why I was looking for suggestions.
10. No hit, from any weapon (arrows included) shall be considered "good" unless it lands with substantial force. Archers may no longer call their shots."

'Substantial' sounds like an invitation for all kinds of rhinohiding to me. Arrows would have to hit harder (everyone's helmeted=might work), can't hurt steel plated fighters anyway so maybe archers wouldn't need to call shots, but there is a good reason why they do it now.

All in all, something like this is interesting. I most like the idea of including the head as a target. While you're at it, better start including hands and feet as historically they were both very important targets as well.

Consider them added to the new list.
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Re: improving combat

Postby theancient » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:14 pm

Arrakis wrote:
theancient wrote:
Arrakis wrote:Interesting.


Also, you can post the names of other games on our forums. We won't get mad at you. Also, Belegarth is 9 letters, Dagorhir is 8, Amtgard is 7, Darkon is 6, Quest and MELEE are 5, and NERO is 4, so, it's generally pretty easy to figure out which game we're talking about.


yeah I figured you could...just being polite. Just curious but do you mean the maui quest?

Arrakis wrote:This list seems like a good set of reasons why things AREN'T more realistic. I'd love for more people to understand that THAT is the way armor actually works and that they should quit trying to nerf (hardened) leather or say that single green should only go through leather or something. Plate is PROOF against EVERYTHING, or * near, especially when worn over a good aketon. A poleax may damage you, a warhammer might break small plates, and if they can get the tip into the articulation, you can be stabbed. But shots from an arming sword are going to do nothing. And even chain+gambeson is going to ignore most sword strokes, at least for a time.


Agreed


FTFY.

No, I mean the New England Quest. But yeah.

And here I was thinking you meant these folks: http://mauidotcom.com/quest2.html#
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Re: improving combat

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:18 pm

Hey, Mr Theancient, I was actually the one who posted all that stuff, so I will chime in.

First off, I was not being serious. I do not think Dagorhir or Belegarth really needs to change, at least not substantially. I've been doing this for almost 8 years now and I haven't really had a problem with the game as played except for archery. And even that is manageable.

Second, that's not an exhaustive list, largely because of the above reason. I had no intention of making it a feasible or plausible set of rules, so don't stick to the details. I was really just griping (but maybe too subtly) about how people tend to make arbitrary distinctions between "just right" and "not realistic/hard-hitting enough."

Third, it was in reference to protests that Dagorhir is getting too "tappy," when tappiness was only vaguely defined.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Arrakis » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:19 pm

http://www.quest.org/about/

I don't play, but I fight with a splinter group at Yale 'pon occasion.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Winfang » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:04 pm

Not all SCA kingdoms allow flails and there isn't a society rule about them either. I know the Earl Marshal of the Midrealm will not allow them.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Arrakis » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:05 pm

Truth, Winfang. East Kingdom is still reviewing them, as of the fall of '08.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Physic » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:08 pm

I fought against one that used a softball as a head. It is actually very difficult to get substantial force behind them. That one would in no way cave in a helmet.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Nigel » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:08 pm

Just to say about the armor thing - lets think about reality.

Armor stops a lot of weapons very effectively, right? So they developed new things, and they finally got rid of armor to favor equipment and tactics to counter the other new ones - which they did in response. Eventually, you run into these things called M-16s and tanks. To argue with realism, why don't we just skip the clumsy period where all kinds of things are useless, say we developed, and go play paintball?

Not to bash the ideas - I'm all for realism, especially when it's fun, but I wanted to point out that realism led to today's warfar, and before that, stuff that was far from what Belegarth is now.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Juicer » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:38 pm

You know, an abundance of troops wear some form of body armor nowadays... at least a flak vest. It's been in practice since WWII. Body armor was really only "dead" for about 250 years (and even then it popped up here and there) in the western world. There were still soldiers wearing breastplates and helmets until the bayonet replaced the pike in 1700(ish).

Most paintball is actually pretty unrealistic itself. Very rarely do you even see limb rules. It's usually "military kills" (head and torso) or speedball (anything, including your marker). At least in my experience.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Nigel » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:45 pm

;) I know about flak vests and the slow decline of armor. And I know paintball isn't realistic at all. I was simply trying to get across that, due to the constant evolution of arms and armor, if we get to realistic for period-specific combat, and keep improving that realism, we'll have to change periods and eventually be shooting at each other rather than beating our pals with foam swords.

In the next 1000 year (give or take many years XD) people will be making re-creation societies of us.
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Re: improving combat

Postby theancient » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:42 am

MagnusofDregoth wrote:Hey, Mr Theancient, I was actually the one who posted all that stuff, so I will chime in.

First off, I was not being serious. I do not think Dagorhir or Belegarth really needs to change, at least not substantially. I've been doing this for almost 8 years now and I haven't really had a problem with the game as played except for archery. And even that is manageable.

Second, that's not an exhaustive list, largely because of the above reason. I had no intention of making it a feasible or plausible set of rules, so don't stick to the details. I was really just griping (but maybe too subtly) about how people tend to make arbitrary distinctions between "just right" and "not realistic/hard-hitting enough."

Third, it was in reference to protests that Dagorhir is getting too "tappy," when tappiness was only vaguely defined.


Howdy Dave,
I realize that this was you...but I was curious if the reaction to these sort of ideas would be the same on this board. Hope you don't mind if I was a bit impertinent in posting them.
and ya...the reaction is pretty much the same...thank you all for your comments, they've been very informative.
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Re: improving combat

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:49 am

Sorry, what name would I know you by?
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Re: improving combat

Postby theancient » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:03 pm

mea culpa Magnus...just bein' cheeky. I lurk in a few other places but don't often post...so actually you don't know me. Been quite amused by your posts over on the armour archive...I'll be honest I admire your persistence with those jokers (especially Animal).
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Re: improving combat

Postby Elwrath » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:59 am

Arrakis wrote:Anyway, an interesting list. I'd not mind seeing Dag adopt a max length rule for their flails the same way Bel has (40" for us) and I'd love to see Bel implement a min flail head weight rule like Dag's and I wouldn't mind a bit seeing unhardened 12 oz leather removed from the list of passing armor in both sports (I play both, by the way).


Not to be too technical but i thought dag had a max 44" flail rule and either their flail heads had to be a certain size or a certain weight.

Also i have to totally disagree with you about the unhardened leather thing. Our "game" is pretty much a "sport" and having a ton of people running around in hardened leather just makes for more rhinohiding by accident, because my perfectly good swing which unarmored people will complain about isn't even felt..or is 2 light for someone with hardened leather...i'd say for the sake of belegarth game play and the flow of combat, hardened armor shouldn't be allowed...just my opinion though. I'm a stick-jock not a realist...
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Re: improving combat

Postby Arrakis » Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:07 pm

Elwrath wrote:
Arrakis wrote:Anyway, an interesting list. I'd not mind seeing Dag adopt a max length rule for their flails the same way Bel has (40" for us) and I'd love to see Bel implement a min flail head weight rule like Dag's and I wouldn't mind a bit seeing unhardened 12 oz leather removed from the list of passing armor in both sports (I play both, by the way).


Not to be too technical but i thought dag had a max 44" flail rule and either their flail heads had to be a certain size or a certain weight.

Also i have to totally disagree with you about the unhardened leather thing. Our "game" is pretty much a "sport" and having a ton of people running around in hardened leather just makes for more rhinohiding by accident, because my perfectly good swing which unarmored people will complain about isn't even felt..or is 2 light for someone with hardened leather...i'd say for the sake of belegarth game play and the flow of combat, hardened armor shouldn't be allowed...just my opinion though. I'm a stick-jock not a realist...



The current Dag rules on flails (going into effect as of Rag XXIV, I believe) are:

MoA wrote:4.2.4 - Flails:
hide

4.2.4.1 - The ball of a flail must have a minimum circumference of 16 inches (measured at its narrowest point) and weigh a minimum weight of 4 oz.

4.2.4.2 - The end of flail haft must follow the 2 inch rule.

4.2.4.3 - The maximum “chain” length on a flail is 6 inches.

4.2.4.4 - The rope or cloth of the flail “chain” must be completely covered with segmented foam (rings) to reduce the risk of injury if the chain strikes a fighter and reduce the risk of the chain wrapping a weapon or limb.

4.2.4.5 - Flails are always blue weapons regardless of length.


So, no max overall length, head has to make weight and size. Of course, they ignorantly worded 4.2.4.1 so that flanged flails are basically no longer allowed which I think was pretty * ignorant.

Also, if you think hardened leather absorbs shot strength, what do you think about actual steel? I've got a plate-and-chain bracer I built for myself and, over my gambeson, it does the trick against rattan, let alone foam-covered fiberglass.

You know, something else I could do without: The "armor must be visible/obvious" rule. If we made single green deal one point of damage to an armored target area, there would be no legitimate argument for keeping that rule.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Forkbeard » Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:51 am

I like this idea. But then I'm a violent jerk who likes to compete savagely.
If you play it inthe west, let me know. I already have all this equipment.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Elwrath » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:22 am

interesting about the flails...i stand corrected, maybe it was a ragnarok only rule or something when i went, w/e doesn't matter, but that's really dumb on their part.

Ya i think steel armor is lame too, but atleast it tends to make noise when you hit a big enough piece of it i.e. a breast/back plate. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be variety. I just think it shouldn't hurt the flow of the game, like real armor can. If the person wearing it is responsible about their hit taking, not from their perspective, but from that of the sword fighters they fight with, then it isn't a problem...

I agree that the armor visible thing is lame, and ya it could be fixed with single handed greens doing one pt. of dmg to armor...i'd talk that up to get it passed.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Forkbeard » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:30 am

because my perfectly good swing which unarmored people will complain about isn't even felt..or is 2 light for someone with hardened leather...

If I don'feel it, it wasn't thrown with "sufficent force".
You can not "rhinohide" by accident. If you don't feel it, it shouldn't count. Hardened leather and even steel do not take away the feel of the cenet energy of solid shots. They take away the sting/slap from weak wrist wrap shots. The kind of shots that wouldn't do anymore than give a shallow cut from a real weapon. THe kind of shots that people shouldn't throw.
But I digress. We're talking about Belegarth here. Sword tag.If you tag me and I at lesat hear it, I'll take it. But in the end, we all know who tags people and who KILLS people.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Arrakis » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:42 am

Fork, you have fought Elwrath, right?


A very strange attitude for a veteran Belegrim to have, though, I must say.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Stahlgrim » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:31 am

I don't know why everyone thinks that it takes thousands of dollars to get started in the sca.I have a new guy armoring up down here. $40.00 for metal for a helmet we are putting it together in my shop it can be put together with basic tools; a ballpeen hammer,and a tree stump. $5.00 for a plastic barrel and $10.00 for cloth to make a tunic to cover said plastic. some $$$ for rivets,thread,etc. all in all you can get into sca armour for under $100.00.First thing you need to do is ask who in your area makes the stuff then talk to them. also most sca fighters have old armor sitting in a closet,garage, shed,or a storage unit and are willing to let it go for cheap or free just to help get guys armored up.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Forkbeard » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:34 am

I'm not commenting on EllieMay or his skills. He knows he's a bad *.
He just said something I don't agree with. Sufficent force is part ofour rules. We don't use it, but I think we should. It would stop the kind of discrepencies in our combat that Elwrath bought up. When people got hit and honestly didn't feel it, they wouldn't be looked at as a cheater. We say we work from the Honor system. This isn't true when heralds call people dead becuase it looks to them, from their outside angle, someone got hit.
I understand the game we're playing: sword tag. I play it just fine. I like it.
I would just like the game we SAY we play (full contact mdieval combat)more than the one we really play.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Arrakis » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:42 pm

Forkbeard wrote:Sufficent force is part ofour rules. We don't use it, but I think we should. It would stop the kind of discrepencies in our combat that Elwrath bought up. When people got hit and honestly didn't feel it, they wouldn't be looked at as a cheater. We say we work from the Honor system. This isn't true when heralds call people dead becuase it looks to them, from their outside angle, someone got hit.


QFT. The only time I allow myself to think that an opponent has blown off a shot is when I hits them no where near their shield, no where near their sword, I feel the impact myself through my weapon, I can see it landing, and I hear the shot, loudly, hitting them.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Lurker » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:46 am

Stahlgrim wrote:I don't know why everyone thinks that it takes thousands of dollars to get started in the sca.I have a new guy armoring up down here. $40.00 for metal for a helmet we are putting it together in my shop it can be put together with basic tools; a ballpeen hammer,and a tree stump. $5.00 for a plastic barrel and $10.00 for cloth to make a tunic to cover said plastic. some $$$ for rivets,thread,etc. all in all you can get into sca armour for under $100.00.First thing you need to do is ask who in your area makes the stuff then talk to them. also most sca fighters have old armor sitting in a closet,garage, shed,or a storage unit and are willing to let it go for cheap or free just to help get guys armored up.

The comparison is probably a hyperbole via word of mouth. You can have everything you need for a foam game like Dag, Bel, Amtgard, et cetera for 10 dollars if you want the most basic equipment. 100 is not much if you have a job, but it is a relatively high cost when compared with a foam sport, so when Person A tells Person B who tells Person C about the differences between the two games, the end result is people saying that the SCA "Costs way more than our games do! OMG!"
It is the kind of unfair game bias that I hate.
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Re: improving combat

Postby Forkbeard » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:52 am

Another factor in the expense of SCA fighting is thelevel at which you feel you need to compete.
For example, lets looks at our favorite Orc: Me.
I'm the leader of a large national unit.
I'm well know with the cool kids here.
I have a certain rep to maintain.
I fight with large, 2 hand weapons.
I have real good taste.
To convret my **** to SCA use I've had to,
Build a helmet. I'm a welder and an armourer, but this still cost $45-60 bucks(still need to finish liner and paint it so I don't know the full cost yet).
Build a gorget. $30
Build new fore arm defense(buzabands) out of sole bend. About $75
Started to modfy my Bel torso armor, stop becuase that dumb(my armor is perfect for bel) and made a new torso from leather and steel llamalar. 2 weeks and about $40(had most of the stuff)
Build plastic and legs w/steel knees(I'm old). These were free for me. I made them from materails that have been sitting arounf here for years. Propbly uld have cost me another $30 at least.
Gauntlets. I very nearly had some split finger gauntlets made, then I got laid off and lost access to the tig welder, ****. Got to do something else. I'm currently working on makeng some from scrap stainless I have. another 2 weeks. And at least another 10 bucks for rivets and straps and ****.
Garb. I don't know how much this will cost me. I don't know what persona I'm going for yet. Probly some Viking type tunic and pants(to cover my plastic legs).
Weapons. God knows how much this will cost me. I know **** all about Rattan prices. Also, I'll need the stuff to put thrusting tips and pommells and crossguards on everything.
So I'm looking at $200 or so to convert my kit and weapons to SCA **** at the same level of comfort and style I play Bel at.
Not bad. Not free, or cheap, but not bad.
Of course it's more expensive, but I think it's worth it to some one who wants a more well rounded fightig career.
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