Dag

[BattleChrist]

Whats the difference between Dag and Bel as far as fighting?

[MagnusofDregoth]

People in Bel seem to have a more serious attitude towards combat, as far as fighting technique is concerned, whereas people in Dag tend more often just to want to get out on the field and have fun as best they can.

No clue why it turned out this way, but at least that's my perception. Though it may have a lot to do with the fact that Dagorhir has a lot of n00bs and also has no "fighting" forum on our board.

[Dedric]

The only two functional differences that I know of are:

In Dag you cannot initiate a grapple if you are wearing armor, period. In Bel, you cannot initiate a grapple against an opponent wearing a lower armor class than yourself. So a plate may not initiate with a chain, for example.

In Dag the "magic switch" is illegal - if you lose an arm, you can't directly pass the weapon off to your other hand, you have to drop it, and then pick it back up. Bel allows the magic switch.

[Lurker]

The fundamental difference, as I have had it explained to me by somebody "in the know" on this thing, is that Belegarth gladly and openly accepts advice from players from other games, so the spread of fighting information is significantly greater than in Dagorhir, where the players are more reluctant to share any sort of information with players from other games.

Other than the couple rules differences above, the only remarkable difference is therefore a direct result of the Dagorhir forum policy and resultant attitude of their players.

At least, that is how it has been explained to me. When I get the chance to ever fight Bel or Dag people, I will let you know

[Outhro Youkker]

In Bele, you can talk about anything.
In Dag if you talk about Bele, they see you as if you had the Plague and should be set on fire as soon as possible to not spread Bele to any others.
If you mention Amtgard, you are treated like if you have a mild case of leprosy. Slightly disgusted, but mostly ignored.
Dag has the rules of only talking about Dag and not mixing with any LARP, medieval combat, game, sport, etc.
Both are still quite fun, just need to know when not to mention a few phrases/names/etc.

[Dedric]

BattleChrist asked about the fighting, not the politics. Additionally, most newer Dag people I've spoken to about Bel have been very receptive, and most vets have been very informative. The attitude you're talking about is really an online one, not one held by the players.

[Juicer]

Whats the difference between Dag and Bel as far as fighting?

Jesus guys, I know you're proud to have free speech and everything, but continually bringing it up even when it isn't asked for makes us all look like pompous ****.

BC, there's also a flail head min weight in dag, and no max length on flails. Also a newer rule about the balance point on a sword not being in the handle.

Edit: Dedric beat me to it. So yeah.... I'm not deleting it though, took too long to type. Plus I said pompous ****, and there is no way I'm deleting that.

[Brennon EH]

rule about the balance point on a sword not being in the handle.

That might be the most imbecilic thing I've ever heard.

There is a rule about how you can weight your weapons?

Why stop at half-measures? How about just outlaw the development of skill? Mandate that all shots must be high crosses? Make it illegal to learn new techniques. Quit pussy-footing around the issue and stagnate already.

This can't be a real rule.

[Juicer]

4.1.11.2.3. Balance above the top of the handle (i.e., blade heavier than
handle).

I know, I didn't believe it at first either.

http://www.digitalbonsai.com/dagrules-draft/MOA-2008.pdf

Keep in mind, this is the draft that passed at RWC last year. They haven't updated the one on the main site yet. There are a few typos. (My fave is 4.1.3.)

[Juicer]

Not that any of that makes much of a difference to me anyway, I use tip-heavy clubs like a real man.

[Lurker]

rule about the balance point on a sword not being in the handle.

That might be the most imbecilic thing I've ever heard.

There is a rule about how you can weight your weapons?

Why stop at half-measures? How about just outlaw the development of skill? Mandate that all shots must be high crosses? Make it illegal to learn new techniques. Quit *-footing around the issue and stagnate already.

This can't be a real rule.

It's true Brennon, I remember it being brought up several times back when I read the Dag boards.

The reasons presented to me when I asked why they would have such a stupid rule were "it's a safety reason; if your sword is balanced in the handle, you would often punch people when you swing," "real life swords were balanced in the blade, because weapons are made of steel, duh," and my personal favorite, via Blackhawk, which is "Many tap fighters will try to work around the minimum weight for weapons by making very heavy handles, and if your balance is in the handle, the weapon functions like a speed bat. We do not want tap fighters in this game."

That particular rule, among others, seems to me to have the specific effect of discouraging people from getting better at making weapons. Performance is one of the biggest reasons(if not the biggest one) for making better weapons, and when you have rules about weapon construction specifically to outlaw certain kinds of performance, it means that people have less incentive to make better weapons. It's a step backwards.

[Ralimar]

For the lazy:

"4.1.3. A safe Dagorhir weapon is one which when used as intended will result in bruises,
break bones, or knock out teeth if an unarmored person is struck with a full-strength
swing."

[BattleChrist]

I just wanted to know because there was some guy that asked about dag fighting in boise and when i told him there was no dag but there was bel he said "i guys thats col even tho they're totally different sports". Didn't want to fight with him and then find out that the rules aren't the same.

[Wisp]

Sorry Dedric, but I think that the politics that are part of the games has very much directly impacted the FIGHTING. As the above example about the balance point in the weapons shows... nerfing skill and technique is an active policy in Dag. You are not only encouraged but REQUIRED to suck. From my perspective, this is to give a handful of fighters in the game a tooth and toenail grasp on being competitive. Everyone else in the game is so far in the dark that they just don't know any better. Olympics clearly showed that it didn't matter and they still were beaten down like bad little monkeys. Imagine that.

Will

[Chicken]

I've been fighting in a Dag realm for a while now and actually went through the two rule sets a while ago to try to see what all has changed.

Turns out there are a bunch of other little differences in weapon standards - they allow 2" tips on non-green weapons, more flex for spears, less handle on long reds, flail head weight requirements, no <24" exception to weight minimums, slightly different armor standards, rock weight max, different shield size limits, etc. etc.

Once you're on the field, though, there are only a few differences:
1) No magic switch
2) Can't initiate grapple in armor with anyone
3) Slightly different shield contact rules. Can't bash a gimp, though you can check them. Can check from behind (but still not bash). Shield contact to the head/neck is explicitly prohibited, not just discouraged. Kicking a buckler is not discouraged.
4) Pierced arms go behind your back, though are still pierced

Culturally, Bel tends to be majority stick jocks and Dag tends to be majority flurb. Regen battles are practically unheard of in Bel (in the east anyway) and are very common in Dag. As decentralized as the concept of knighthood is in Bel, it's even more up in the air in Dag and does not have the same degree of universal significance.

And there are nearly 0 Bel elves and a ton of Dag ones. Dunno what that's about.

[Arrakis]

Don't forget the TOTALLY AWESOME minimum blade dimension rules. Nothing like building a Bel-standard blue-box sword on 3/8" square fiberglass and it fails for being 2.8" across the flats and 1.15" thick even though it smokes the hit test.

Oh, or the fact that Dag seems to have a major hard-on for rez battles and "scenario" battles. Why people like dying over and over to guys with spears in a bridge battle with no winner is beyond me.

Edit: Chicken is a ninja. But I'm leaving my statements up, too.

[Cib]

4.1.3. A safe Dagorhir weapon is one which when used as intended will result in bruises,
break bones, or knock out teeth if an unarmored person is struck with a full-strength
swing.

I LOLed so much!

[Olos]

All of the above differences aside, there is little real difference, especially in small scale stuff, though as said before, the average bel fighter is a bit more skillful than the average dag fighter. A dag fighter will have little to no problems going to a practice at a bel park, and vice versa.

[Soo Ma Tai]

You're safe BC, the games are only marginally different. Though the groups are completely seperate, politically and organizationally, the rules they fight by are almost identical. That is like saying Star Wars Monopoly and Classic Monopoly are completely different games.

[Brennon EH]

Not that any of that makes much of a difference to me anyway, I use tip-heavy clubs like a real man.

I prefer my balance to be about three inches above my handle. This causes me to be able to better 'feel' where my tip is.

It's still a completely short-sighted and moronic rule designed to give an advantage to a very specific style of fighting while offering no benefit in return.

If I started changing rules like this in Amtgard, I would get run out on a rail.

[Derian]

Unfortunately, with Dagorhir, it's a collective short-sightedness. They vote their rules in at Rag.

[Arrakis]

Not that any of that makes much of a difference to me anyway, I use tip-heavy clubs like a real man.

I prefer my balance to be about three inches above my handle. This causes me to be able to better 'feel' where my tip is.

It's still a completely short-sighted and moronic rule designed to give an advantage to a very specific style of fighting while offering no benefit in return.

If I started changing rules like this in Amtgard, I would get run out on a rail.

The dumbest bit is that, if you like your balance point, say, 3" above where you grip most often (say, near the pommel, though I'm leaning more towards Rogue grip now), AND you like to be able to choke up for some things...

Really, if that rule were applied correctly, half of the beautiful Zweihanders I've seen posted about over there lately would almost certainly fail.

[GvK]

That particular rule, among others, seems to me to have the specific effect of discouraging people from getting better at making weapons. Performance is one of the biggest reasons(if not the biggest one) for making better weapons, and when you have rules about weapon construction specifically to outlaw certain kinds of performance, it means that people have less incentive to make better weapons. It's a step backwards.

So, otherwise experienced weaponmakers like myself, whose weapons *always* balance above the handle make crap-weapons? I think I make outstanding and well-balanced weapons, and you know what? They are not 12 oz balance in the handle clubs or swords. One of my blue swords typically weighs 16-18 oz and balances 3-5" above the handle--like a real single-handed sword balances but lighter (duh). I think a rule that prohibits people from making an otherwise 8 oz ultralight weapon to which 4 oz of counterbalanceing is added so it balances in the handle (or lower) is a good thing. So, I guess I disagree with you strongly.

[Arrakis]

GvK, what's wrong with this:

Pommel Length: 2"
Handle length: 10"
Blade length: 20"
Balance point: 10" above the bottom of the pommel (slightly less than 1/3 of the length of the weapon)

?


The only thing wrong with it is that it breaks that * fool handle balance rule! If I want to use it with my hand near the pommel most of the time, but then quick choke it to block leg shots with the handle, according to the Dag rules, I have to balance it higher. Why? Because you're afraid someone can build a weapon that balances 2 inches above the bottom of the pommel and weighs 12 oz? So what?! Beat their * enough and they'll come around to your way of weighting.

[Ralimar]

I do have to say, I do think that swords with a balance point on the handle are retarded. I've actually only seen it pulled off a handful of times, and even then the sword had literally two pounds of weight in the handle. Anyone else remember the "Penny handles?" Just dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb. And I don't know what everyone is all worked up about... I'll bet most of you don't even own a sword like this, not even Arrakis's sword on a stick that he's talking about.

[GvK]

Arrakis, I did not write the rule (though I did, effectively, write the minimum weight rules that Bel more-or-less subsequently adopted), but I do agree with it. I also don't speak for Dag, especially on this or other "Dag-competitive" boards. Short of seeing it implemented/playtested, at this time, I feel the new rule, while it may outlaw some unusual weapons, will have a greater positive affect on the game and I'd say the great majority of Bel-safe weapons that pass Bel's ruleset will also pass in Dag's so it is not really a big deal... Oh, as Ralimar just stated.

[MagnusofDregoth]

Well, I would want to re-do the rule to say that a weapon's balance point must be at least 25% of the distance from the pommel end to the tip, because that seems to be more consistent with real medieval swords. I have never seen a real sword with a 10" hilt, whereas I have seen real swords with 5" hilts that balanced 4" out from the top of the grip, i.e. 9". So doing it that way would, in my opinion, make for weapons that were much more consistent as well as realistic.

Also, in my opinion, handle-weighted weapons are not good. I accidentally made a sword that has its weight in the handle, and it is really hard to control when using a Rogue-style grip, so I basically have to pommel-fight if I want it to feel right. All of the swords I make now balance basically right at the base of the blade, and they are totally sweet.

[Arrakis]

It's just silly to regulate how you are allowed to balance your weapons, I think.

*shrugs*

[Brennon EH]

Also, in my opinion, handle-weighted weapons are not good. I accidentally made a sword that has its weight in the handle, and it is really hard to control when using a Rogue-style grip, so I basically have to pommel-fight if I want it to feel right. All of the swords I make now balance basically right at the base of the blade, and they are totally sweet.

I completely agree with your assessment. My swords that meet Bel weight have a balance point about 12-13 inches from the bottom of the pommel. My handles are generally about 9-10 inches. I find that this feels best to me, and gives me the best control.

That said, the entire concept behind the rule seems to be to discourage innovation and advancement... And that helps nobody in the long run. I hope Bel doesn't adopt a similar standard.

[MagnusofDregoth]

It's just silly to regulate how you are allowed to balance your weapons, I think.

*shrugs*

On the other hand, similar things are done in basically every other sport in existence. Bicycle designs in cycle racing are regulated, bats in professional baseball are regulated, pads worn in rugby are regulated--while there are certainly differences and design among the pieces of equipment used, there are also certain minimum standards to which they all have to adhere. I view weapon weighting in Dagorhir as analogous to these.

[Arrakis]

Also, in my opinion, handle-weighted weapons are not good. I accidentally made a sword that has its weight in the handle, and it is really hard to control when using a Rogue-style grip, so I basically have to pommel-fight if I want it to feel right. All of the swords I make now balance basically right at the base of the blade, and they are totally sweet.

I completely agree with your assessment. My swords that meet Bel weight have a balance point about 12-13 inches from the bottom of the pommel. My handles are generally about 9-10 inches. I find that this feels best to me, and gives me the best control.

That said, the entire concept behind the rule seems to be to discourage innovation and advancement... And that helps nobody in the long run. I hope Bel doesn't adopt a similar standard.

QFT.

[Solusar]

Ultimately it's Aratari that "runs" Dagorhir and there's kind of no way to change that until they all leave they're positions. Until then I'm just going to keep killing them on the field. And playing other games.

[Dedric]

There is no discouragement going on here. Pommel-weighted weapons are highly unrealistic. While realism isn't as important as safety or playability, I prefer to see more realistic weapons on the field, rather than less.

[GvK]

Once again, the point of this thread is how does Dag and Bel FIGHTING differ, not their politics, which has been done ad nauseum.

Oh, I agree with Magnus regarding weapon balance requirements. As I stated previously, for the great majority of weapons and weapon makers, the rule change would have little or no effect. Thus, I don't think that rule change discourages innovative weapon makers at all; rather, it aims to put a curb on handle-weighted weapons...

[Soo Ma Tai]

When I first started playing Dag in 94' in Dur-D, that rule was a standard, weapons were not allowed to balance below the blade. I don't really think it is so much a new rule as an unwritten rule of Dag now made official. I don't really care about it as I don't fight Dag any more, but that's how it used to be.

[varadin]

heres my only * with the non handle balance pointed weapons.

I just made a saex knife. 13 inch blade 4 inch handle. To meet swung weapons requirements, i was forced to add a TON of weight to the handle of this knife. The balance point is right at the top of the handle. Im not complaining with how it handles but a real knife has the weight in the handle why cant my foam counterpart have the same?

But why is there a requirement on weight for a small knife it doesn't make it safer. If i clock someone in the face with this by accident now it will hurt as opposed to just making them flinch.

[BattleChrist]

Cool thanks for the info everyone, if this guys decides to fight with me I'm going to straight run his day in our "totally different sport".

[Lokin]

"it's a safety reason; if your sword is balanced in the handle, you would often punch people when you swing,"

So are they going to outlaw left-handed people now?

[Lurker]

"it's a safety reason; if your sword is balanced in the handle, you would often punch people when you swing,"

So are they going to outlaw left-handed people now?

Are left-handed people balanced in the handle where you come from? I haven't seemed to have the problem; all the Lefties that I fight with are rather tip-heavy, so they're really only good as red weapons in the first place.

[Lokin]

No what I meant by that is that when a lefty and a righty generally match someone ends up getting punched.

I should've gone with

So Dagger fighting is going to be outlawed?

[Solusar]

It's not a good analogy either way. Here's a good one Battle Christ: Dagorhir is like UFC and Belegarth is like Pride.

[Lokin]

So would that make Amt... Pancrase?

(rules wise)

[Solusar]

No, it's more like WWE.

[debuenzo]

spot on!

[Dedric]

No what I meant by that is that when a lefty and a righty generally match someone ends up getting punched.

Not really. If YOUR lefties are doing that, remind me never to fight them. Or just let them know I hit back.

[Brennon EH]

No, it's more like WWE.

You guys are in sooooo much trouble.

[Solusar]

I know you guys are good fighters, but classes and magic make it really flashy and showboaty. Like the WWE. I mean, Brock Lesnar is a UFC champion right now. That says something.

[Angmarth]

All joking and such aside, I hope everyone has a chance to fight the better Amtgard fighters in their travels. Over the years I have had the pleasure of squaring off against a few of them. Do NOT underestimate their ability simply because they play a different game. To put this in perspective, do our better fighters fair well in other games (such as the SCA)? The answer to that is a resounding YES. Do not be disillusioned into thinking the road won't go both ways. Good fighters will be good no matter what game they play. The rules might make some better in some games than others, but it will under no circumstances be the case that an AWESOME fighter in any game will magically suck the big one because he is now playing by different rules.

[Solusar]

I feel in some strange way, that supported what I was saying. Thank you Angmarth.

[Lokin]

No what I meant by that is that when a lefty and a righty generally match someone ends up getting punched.

Not really. If YOUR lefties are doing that, remind me never to fight them. Or just let them know I hit back.

Notice I didn't say the lefty was doing the punching. In fact I remember an explicit time when some righty I was fighting went for the high cross and punched me in the face. Luckily it wasn't hard.

What I really mean by punching is that I end up punching people's hands... or they end up punching my hand. However that minor detail I decided to leave out just for fun.