Dag

[BattleChrist]

As a righty, you have all the same advantages as a lefty when you fight against one. The only difference is they usually have the experience from that position that the average righty does not. My suggestion.....find a lefty and fight them....a lot....and then some more. You'll eventually get some skill against them. I know I did, thanks to having a couple leftys in realm here. I still am only very effective against newer leftys, BC cranks me nearly every time, but that's cause he's crazy good...and a lefty.

Haha thanks men.

People just need to remember that any shot i can bust out on them they can turn right back around and use it on me.

[Soo Ma Tai]

People just need to remember that any shot i can bust out on them they can turn right back around and use it on me.

QFT!!

[Slagar]

Yeah, I have both the article and the video bookmarked. I show them to anyone I'm training at the moment. Pure gold, and great for raising the bar for left-handed fighters. Too many think that they're killing machines, largely because they kill everybody, because craptacular righties just let 'em.

BC, I've really gotta meet you at some point. I work constantly with Angel and Galin, but all three of us are kinda from the same school, so there's only so much to teach each other. I'd love to pick up some western lefty tricks. You hitting any Eastern events this year?

[BattleChrist]

I should be going to arm this year unless things go to all hell.

[Arrakis]

The sort of completely retarded pussification you see running (almost) unchecked in this thread is the **** difference between Bel and Dag.

Some gems:

What happened to just plain "Hit hard, take light?"

There are no light shots... this isnt the "Society".

If it is legally swung and landed, take it...

For instance, if you are traveling away from the weapon at nearly the speed of light, you wouldn't explode into a million tiny bits of warrior, but instead, you would hardly feel the strike. Jet Li, Jackie Chan, and Chuck Norris are all applauding your amazing feat of skill (a contradiction in the world of Dungeons and Dragons!).
-pause-
You should still take this hit. Even though it is light, we don't want fighters getting angry and swinging with impaired judgment. Safety is a top concern when it comes to Dagorhir.
-unpause-

And this is just one of the many threads recently devoted to "Why does everyone want me to hit them like I meeeaaaan it??? Why doesn't everyone just take everything they feeeeeeeeeel??????" I mean, God, the substantial force rule was removed from their ruleset last Rag!

[Derian]

I mean, God, the substantial force rule was removed from their ruleset last Rag!

Orly?

I like how the general impression of us (Belegarth) is a bunch of coked out meatheads wailing on each other with pieces of rebar by day and spitting on new people by night.

[Solusar]

I mean, God, the substantial force rule was removed from their ruleset last Rag!

Orly?

I like how the general impression of us (Belegarth) is a bunch of weeded out metalheads wailing on each other with pieces of femur bone and crowbar by day and spitting acid on new people by night.

FTFY

3.4.1 - Hits from hand-held weapons count when the weapon strikes solidly with noticeable force. NOTE: what constitutes a “solid strike” is necessarily subjective and thus relies on the honor of both the attacker and the person who is struck.
I don't know what Arrakis is talking about. There is some talk about changing the wording (again) but it basically says you have to hit hard.
I do think some wording in the rules about reds breaking shields is ****.
4.3.6 - The fighter wielding the shield judges if the blows are solid “shield-breaking” red hits; however, the physical size of the fighter delivering the blows must always be considered; i.e., a “solid” hit from a smaller, lighter person will generally feel “lighter” than one from a more massive fighter.
This is *. If a 90 pound girl can't swing very hard she should not be using a red sword.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I will take slightly lighter shots from weaker opponents, at least here at home, but I do expect it to hit solidly with good force. If all you are doing is tappy, tappy, I wont count it.I am also one of those people that a hit is a hit is a hit, and red hits are no different. If I would take it to the body, I will take it to the shield. I just looked at that Dag thread....call your swung shots, what a dipstick.

[MagnusofDregoth]

I mean, God, the substantial force rule was removed from their ruleset last Rag!

Orly?

I like how the general impression of us (Belegarth) is a bunch of coked out meatheads wailing on each other with pieces of rebar by day and spitting on new people by night.

I think that has a lot to do with the way Belegarth fighters have behaved--or have seemed to behave--at Dagorhir events.

I know several of them treated me like total * when I was a new fighter at Ragnarok some years ago. One person told me just to take a death because he didn't want to waste his time fighting me. (fun fact: I sparred him at last Ragnarok and beat him repeatedly)

Both groups could stand to do more to evaluate the way they are perceived by others.

Also, Belegarth had way more tapfighting back just a few years ago--no weapon minimum weight will do that. Some people complained about my not taking hits that just slid off me when I came to Springwar in 2005. Of course, they didn't complain to my face, which would have been more effective, but I digress.

[varadin]

This is *. If a 90 pound girl can't swing very hard she should not be using a red sword.

agreed, i catch so much flak from little kids with reds about why im not taking a red hit because they are small. Its more because i know that if swung right it can still move my whole person not just a shrug.

[Slagar]

Arrakis, that's irresponsibly out of context. The majority of those posts are advocating exactly what we ourselves say. There are two idiots in that thread, one of them being Deos, the other RowanUrsis, who are saying stupid ****. The rest of that thread is completely in line. Maybe a couple noob questions, but good advice.

Don't pull quotes out of context to make them look bad, it's bad form. You're better than that, man.

[Oisin]

There are some fighters from Belegarth who are absolute douchebags, but that's true anywhere and it's just unfortunate that some of ours are more highprofile than some others.

I mean, at Beltaine, a well-known fighter broke a bow belonging to a guy I know, a fairly new fighter. My friend had called himself dead, was raising his bow to touch his head, and the other guy hit the bow so hard with a flat snap straight towards the ear that the solid, 1-piece longbow shattered into pieces . . . and then he just kept going, didn't even stop to say sorry or make sure that my friend wasn't hurt by the splinters and shards of broken wood that had flown everywhere.

Technically against the rules? Probably not, but still a total douchebag move. And that besides the fact that the rhinohiding was so rampant all event that the heralds had to call people together and lecture everyone twice about taking their hits and not cheating.

I mean, it was worse than last year's 4 Horsemen tournament at Rag, and that's quickly becoming legendary in Bel and Dag for its cheating.

[Arrakis]

Ok, so.

I was just citing that thread as an example of the multitude of other threads on the Dag boards lately that seem to be of the opinion (sans Blackhawk and a couple other vets) that Dag fighters should be taking whatever touches them. It finally * me off enough that I posted about it. If some dumbass posted that sort of crap here we wouldn't stand for it.


Also, Oisin, I hadn't heard anything but good things about the fighting at Beltaine this year.

[Oisin]

I'm probably overstating the problem due to my frustration about the other issue. It was bad on Friday, the day I did most of my field fighting, but it seemed to have been a lot better on Saturday, although except for unit battles and the AWESOME rocks-only tournament I spent most of Saturday helping run trials for my unit and sparring with people, as well as participating in a single blue trial for one of Sir Lotek's squires.

[Enoch]

I think any Rhino-hiding that would have occurred at Beltaine was an isolated incident owing to two main factors. First, a lot of fresh, local fighters that don't get out to a lot of outside battles; second, a large showing of out-of-town vets. I think on the first day, a lot of these newer fighters weren't quite so accustomed to dying so quickly in a battle, new faces and fighting styles to cope with may have played a part in some of these fighters not wanting to take hits. While I was on the field I saw heralds actively addressing this, and the fighting got cleaner as everyone started to figure out how to deal with each other.

A comparison to last Rag's 4-horsemen is a bit off, when in that case, it was seasoned fighters blowing off shots from their own unit-mates.

[Solusar]

That Gestiguiste team also tried to say the Flower Patch Boys were cheating in the finals. They're just like that regardless of who they fight, especially Shade. He's very notorious as a rhino hider. At Rag 21 ( I think it was) I hit him directly in the unarmored section of his face with a rock and he called armor. Zurrokk yelled "Armor only counts for what it covers" and Shade gave one of those "I know I cheated, **** off" looks. It was priceless.

[GvK]

Bottomline: no wording is ever going to be able to "fix/resolve" Dag or Bel combat and what hit should count vs not count. They are both honor-based and SUBJECTIVE systems and in a highly-charged field of competitive fighters, there will ALWAYS be "rhinohiders, " "sloughers,"aka cheaters/douchebags, as well as otherwise good fighters having a bad day, etc. This is made worse by perceptions and accusations of cheating from and to both sides of the Dag/Bel fence. Look at any combat game and you see umpteen discussions about the same thing.

Oh, I don't like the whole "hit hard take light" mantra because, like communism, it works great in theory and breaks down in reality. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution.

[The Great Gigsby]

I don't see anything wrong with the "hit hard take light" school of thought. If anything, it robs you of a fair fight by imposing an extraneous rule, but it's the target who determines what goes through, so whatever. It may be an East vs. West thing, but locally, and at the two Chaos Wars I've attended, I've been surprised at how light people were taking shots.

What were we talking about, again?

[Slagar]

I've been surprised at how light people were taking shots.(

Honestly, that's just as damaging to our game as rhinohiding, IMO. If I'm fighting someone, and I barely graze them and they take death in one round, then in the next they hit me with the same quality shot, I'm not going to take it. Moreover, I'll tell the other fighter not to take the first shot at the time.

I guess what it boils down to is that light is light, and people shouldn't be taking light shots. I'm well-known in my realm for calling my own shots on others off as light, in an attempt to knock this crap off as much as possible. It just creates bad blood, when a bunch of the better fighters call light on shots that other fighters are taking. Makes us look like cheaters, when in fact they're the ones not quite following the rules. It's extremely frustrating.

I haven't found a good solution to this yet, the best I can manage is calling light on my shots, as well as my opponents'. The better new fighters get the hint, so I guess it's something.

[The Great Gigsby]

Heh. I'm with you 100%.

[Blackhawk]

I've been surprised at how light people were taking shots.(

Honestly, that's just as damaging to our game as rhinohiding, IMO. If I'm fighting someone, and I barely graze them and they take death in one round, then in the next they hit me with the same quality shot, I'm not going to take it. Moreover, I'll tell the other fighter not to take the first shot at the time.

I guess what it boils down to is that light is light, and people shouldn't be taking light shots. I'm well-known in my realm for calling my own shots on others off as light, in an attempt to knock this crap off as much as possible. It just creates bad blood, when a bunch of the better fighters call light on shots that other fighters are taking. Makes us look like cheaters, when in fact they're the ones not quite following the rules. It's extremely frustrating.

I haven't found a good solution to this yet, the best I can manage is calling light on my shots, as well as my opponents'. The better new fighters get the hint, so I guess it's something.

Precisely

[Soo Ma Tai]

A lot of people for the west will take lighter shots rather than be called a cheater. IF I get hit and you say it was light, great, I wont take it. But if it lands solidly I am gonna take it, even if I feel it was a bit light. I have always been told, "If you have to think about if it was light, you should prolly just take it." If it is obviously grazing or very light, yeah, I call light/graze/whatever.

Communication is key to relieving the perception of rhinohiding. Oft times a shot may look good from the sideline, but still be shot of delivering a good hit. I think half of the people who "see" a lot of rhinoing are seeing it from the sideline, and not feeling it in combat.

[Eoghan the Brewer]

This is obviously untrue, as you can not respect fighters you obviously haven't met. The best fighters in Amtgard are NOT tap fighters. In fact, the idea of "tap fighting" is incredibly uncommon as you get closer to the core Amtgard lands(read: Texas). You are allowing yourself to be biased based off of the game people play, which means that you are not in fact respecting these people.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, here. I fought with groups in Houston, Conroe and near Dallas in 2003-4. There were eve a few fighters from Austin at a handful of the Conroe practices. As a whole, they were pimping graphite shafts with super light foam blades (a similar density to Fun Noodle) and the lightest cloth covers they could get to withstand a few events. It was snappy *poke*poke* tap fighting through and through, and was the main reason I didn't continue fighting Amtgard.

My first experiences fighting were with an SCA offshoot and, later, with the SCA itself. I tried and hated NERO. I continue to fight SCA heavy and rapier. Maybe I just have a higher natural calibration than most people. I *like* getting hit hard. It makes me feel like I'm actually playing at something other than tag, as was mentioned before. Bel has been awesome, in the short months I've been involved, because of the amped up calibration when compared to other unarmored fighting groups.

[Halbrust]

I'm going to throw my opinion in here.

Bel and Dag are like the NFL and AFL. Neither FL was better, one was consumed by the other. Neither fighting game is better, one sprang from the other.

The rules are almost identical.

The complaints of one group about the other are the same way too often. Bel says Dag is tappy. Dag says Bel complains when they get hit hard. Bel says Dag fighters are only in ot for the fun. Dag says Bel fighters worry too much about looking good and not the fighting.

It's not going to happen, but I wish one group would swallow the other so we all fought together.

Here in Southern California Bel and Dag are practically two units of the same game. I fight at the Dag battles, because location and scheduling make them easier to get to. I doubt there's been a single Dag battle I've been to that didn't have a few Bel fighters in attendance. In fact I just found out Saturday that one of the fighters there ios actually a Bel fighter and not a Dag fighter.

Dag is wrong because it censors out mentions of Bel.
Bel is wrong because it badmouths Dag.
... On the message Boards at least.


That's all I have to say about that.

[Chicken]

Bel says Dag is tappy. Dag says Bel complains when they get hit hard. Bel says Dag fighters are only in ot for the fun. Dag says Bel fighters worry too much about looking good and not the fighting.

Those two statements are very much not the case out east at least. I think you may just be seeing the differences between two realms, not two sports.

[Arrakis]

In my experience, the preconceptions look like:

Bel fighters:
a) Are really big into hitting hard and getting better at fighting (sometimes this comes out as "Bel fighters hit too hard and rhinohide/act like douchebags to flurbs")
b) Don't give a flying **** about garb
c) Hate Dag and want to steal their members/ruin the sport/eat their children.
d) Want to build cheesy light weapons that balance in the handle
e) Must be crazy not to want to go to Rag and fight in the biggest battles every year!

Dag fighters:
a) Care too much about their garb
b) Aren't very good fighters
c) Hate all other sports and want to be the only foamfighting organization out there
d) Hit light and complain about rhinohiding a lot AND/OR rhinohide/cheat a lot (very group dependent)
e) Must be crazy to want to go to Rag and get flailed at by newbies every year

Also, I very much doubt that the majority of established Dagorhir fighters and groups feel the way a substantial minority of the Board-posting members seem to about taking light hits and encouraging tap-fighting to combat rhinohiding. I just get irritated sometimes with the amount of ignorance that goes relatively unchecked on the Dag boards. I try not to check threads that aren't about weapons construction, garb, or events, but sometimes I check the Rules forum and it's just not a good time, for the most part.

[Eoghan the Brewer]

I very much doubt that the majority of established Dagorhir fighters and groups feel the way a substantial minority of the Board-posting members seem to about taking light hits and encouraging tap-fighting to combat rhinohiding. I just get irritated sometimes with the amount of ignorance that goes relatively unchecked on the Dag boards. I try not to check threads that aren't about weapons construction, garb, or events, but sometimes I check the Rules forum and it's just not a good time, for the most part.

I absolutely agree with that first bit. By reading forum posts you'd think a lot of different groups were full of nothing but petty imbeciles. It's that whiny, obnoxious minority combined with the relative safety and anonymity of the web that creates an environment that just begs for trolls and flaming. Then you go to an event and realize just how marginal those people are, and wind up enjoying yourself.
This is also why I try to avoid MMO forums the once in awhile I attempt a game in that genre. I can enjoy an MMO on its own merits. Then I go to the forum, and suddenly I just can't stand the game any more.

[Izec]

Not meaning to reopen a can of worms, but I had a couple of thoughts regarding the weapon center of balance rule in Dag. I personally like weapon weights in the handle because it seems to me that my wraps feel better and when I switch to a high center of balance weapon my elbows get unhappy with me. I'd rather be out there fighting than having to sit on the sideline because I have to otherwise use a weapon which makes me physiologically unhappy. Sure, there are plenty of historical examples of swords having their center of balance above the handle, but my weapons tend to be round, not flat blades, so I consider them clubs. And I find it perfectly reasonable historically to take that chunk of hard material that I bash with and weigh it how I like.

So, in essence, I think the balance rule is BS. Just like I think the Bel rule for a minimum amount of tape on the striking surface is BS. Limiting how I make my weapons, no matter what way you do that, has a detrimental effect on the progress of technology for these boffer games. As long as the weapons are safe you should be able to make them however you wish.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I think you are right, but the tape rule isn't hard and fast. You can have tape on the striking surface, it ~should~ just be as minimal amount as possible. Too much tape on the striking surface will cause the weapon to fail for hitting to hard. That rule was put in place to prevent the all duct tape covered weapons, as it's likely it won't pass.

[GvK]

Sure, there are plenty of historical examples of swords having their center of balance above the handle, but my weapons tend to be round, not flat blades, so I consider them clubs. And I find it perfectly reasonable historically to take that chunk of hard material that I bash with and weigh it how I like.

So, in essence, I think the balance rule is BS. Just like I think the Bel rule for a minimum amount of tape on the striking surface is BS. Limiting how I make my weapons, no matter what way you do that, has a detrimental effect on the progress of technology for these boffer games. As long as the weapons are safe you should be able to make them however you wish.

Um, like 99% of medieval swords balance above the handle, that is not merely a "trend" it is historical fact. If you don't like the balance rules in Dag, don't play Dag. I heard the same type of arguments that the minimum weight rules in Dag (and then Bel) would "ruin" the spirit of foam weapon innovation and maybe it did cramp some originality but the pros FAR outweigh the negatives in terms of playability. I think the same will hold true for the balance rules. Oh, and the minimum weight rules were put in place to put a stop to 5 oz swords that would blow off the table with a good wind--I've seen it happen. Just because folks can make 4-5 oz swords that are safe does not necessarily mean they are good for the game...or at least for Dag.

[Oisin]

I've yet to see anyone provide evidence that ANY sword EVER (during Bel/Dag period anyway, ie, pre-1600s or so . . . there are a very few fencing rapiers from the 18th and 19th century, but those don't count) had a center of mass in the handle.

[Arrakis]

I've never seen anyone provide evidence that having a center of balance in the handle of a weapon grants any sort of competitive advantage.

What's the reasoning behind the rule again, other than to **** with people who like to build max-length handles to cut down on weight or foam use or whatever?

[Wisp]

Tennis Elbow is period.

Will

[GvK]

Agree with tennis elbow, I got a bad case of it in 2004 and it took months and lots of physical therapy to finally get rid of it...

[Arrakis]

I feel like between fighting and computer use (and owning a Wii, and playing drums in Rock Band...), I've * near got, like, tennis wrist. Anyone ever get that? Soreness, popping, etc.?

[MagnusofDregoth]

Yeah, I have that pretty much as a chronic condition. It's weird, my wrist seems to hurt for most of the week leading up to a battle or event, and then once I start fighting it actually stops. Well, except for Ragnarok 21, the last day there I was hurting something fierce and felt like my hand was going to fall off.

[Wisp]

Until I started fighting Bel/Dag regularly, I never had this problem. The weights are just too awkward when not balanced correctly. When my sticks fail check in (or don't, depending on the event and the checker at the gate) and I have to go with stock Edhellen or something similarly horribly weighted... I PAY DEARLY. My wrist is usually ok, but has moments... but my elbows... whoa... I pay for that for weeks.

Pommel weights for the win. Or at least for my elbows happiness.

Will

[varadin]

wisp you sound like swinging wrong to me, my Sca stick is something like 2 pounds non counterweighted. I can fight with it for a long time and nothing on my arm hurts other then muscles being sore.

My foam sticks are 14-16 ounces counterweighted and I throw my shoulder out on them because i pull my shots and cause myself problems. Its more your style of your swing then your weapon when it comes to body abuse. What your doing works with a counter weighted weapon and not for a tip heavy weapon. Change how you fight with the heavier tipped stuff and your arm will hurt less.

Im not saying you swing your normal sword wrong, you sound like you swing the other sword wrong

[Wisp]

And there is the rub. Theres only so many ways you can throw a specific shot. I am specifically going to be picking brains on body mechanics for the heavier boat paddles on a stick swords at SKBC this weekend. I might just end up switching over from flat blades to round clubs again and say * it.

Will

[Arrakis]

I might just end up switching over from flat blades to round clubs again and say * it.

I keep wondering if that wouldn't be a good idea for my poor wrists, but, then, I want to fight SCA, too...

[Wisp]

I might just end up switching over from flat blades to round clubs again and say * it.

I keep wondering if that wouldn't be a good idea for my poor wrists, but, then, I want to fight SCA, too...

I fight SCA and have been for years. I've never noticed where flat vs. round in foam fighting influenced my sca fighting. What exactly do you mean? If your meaning the "edge" of the sword on the sca stick... the shot motions are the same. The big flat paddles aren't so much wonky or impossible to make good use of, its just a little too traumatic on my elbows. And I'm getting to that age where I'm starting to really feel it more. I'm sure I have lots of room for improvement on my body mechanics so I'll try to correct that before just giving up on it entirely yet. If I keep going at the pace I have been this season it might not be too far off though. Or, the g'* weapons checkers could just get some consistency going and I wouldn't have to deal with that. OR, I could just make more decent sticks... but I'm lazy and I want people to conform to my wants.

Will

[Arrakis]

I just meant, if I start using bats in Bel and throwing my crosses and wraps in ways that will make me flat people in the SCA, it will be bad for my overall form.

[Solusar]

National standards for weapon checking is something I'd like to see a push for also.

[Sir Killian]

all weapons i have seen in the sca are omni surface... or maybe i was ignorant to the rules of combat...

also for those that care.. the statement "hit hard... take light..." was coined a long time ago and it inferred hit hard so that hits aren't light... and be honorable so no one calls you a cheater....
some yokels take it as law and take its verbage literally... and they're just dumb....

BC did you get your answer to your question? cause this thread super changed course

[MagnusofDregoth]

Technically, in Scadian combat you are required to mark your sword edges, and if you hit someone with one of the "flats" then you should call "flat."

[BattleChrist]

Ya i pretty much got what i needed.

[Lord Ballak]

i wanted to add something that has been brought up at our home practices.

there is another rule change in dag that will cause ALOT of bel fighters to scream..

Dag = 4.5.3.6 - If an arrow is deflected, even minutely, it is considered to have hit.

vs Bel's

3.8.4. A missile Weapon is considered to have hit if there is significant deflection of the missile head (>30 degrees). Once the missile head has significantly deflected off a target, the missile is rendered harmless

have fun with this one.. we use bel rules at practice.. but ive been warning people that at rag.. there will be no deflection rule in affect.. be sure to take all the stray arrow bad calls now..

[Big King Jimmy]

Later Belegarth, time to find a dag realm!

-archer

[Derian]

lolop

[Peanut of Loderia]

Later Belegarth, time to find a dag realm!

-archer

Sweet, no more archers.