Dag

[Lokin]

No, it's more like WWE.

I thought that was NERO

[MagnusofDregoth]

I think NERO is more like SciFi weekly movies.

[Wisp]

After reading the new Dagorhir Fighting Forums, I'm thinking they need to be changed from UFC to Hungry Hungry Hippos. That entire forum is painful.

I'm also enjoying the thread in the rules section where blocking with your weapon is entirely discouraged.

[GvK]

Yeah, it is new and posts are by and largely responded to by enthusiastic newbies. They ARE the future vets and ubervets and the future of the game (any game fo rthat matter). Give 'em time, they'll become vets and those forums will also get "higher level" posts and discussions.

[Oisin]

Gonna have to say . . . I agree with the handle-weight rule, although I also think it would be good to eliminate (or at least reduce) weight requirements for weapons under a certain length, either 24" or 18". I've had the exact same problem trying to make a Dag-legal seax.

I think it is stupid and unrealistic to have a weapon weighted in the handle, and it encourages a type of fighting that is based on equipment not on actual skill. I respect Amtgard fighters, but we have weight requirements specifically so that our fighting is not as fast and tappy as ours.

Of course, I also value realism a lot more than many other people do, so take it for what you will.

Arrakis, sorry if that messes up your weapon, you could always put a crossguard in the middle of the handle and some minimal incidental padding above it so you can still use your sword like that.

[Kerb]

To be honest, it's not the weight req. that is angering. Such a rule is understandable and fair. On the flip side, telling me where I have to place the weight on my weapon is upsetting, realistically you could do the exact same thing to a real weapon and achieve the same result, make the handle thick and the same with the pommel (in fact that is the entire use of a realistic pommel). While I don't mind since I don't play Dag, it just seems way too unnecessarily limiting when there is historical precedent to counter balancing weapons.

[MagnusofDregoth]

But no weapon (or no weapon appropriate to the fantasy/historical context we are dealing with) that I have ever seen or read about balances BELOW the hilt. And frankly, I don't think any weapon, foam or otherwise, should balance below the hilt, either, because they handle wonkily.

Yes, that is now a word.

[Lurker]

I think it is stupid and unrealistic to have a weapon weighted in the handle, and it encourages a type of fighting that is based on equipment not on actual skill.

No, that's not true at all. Some people will prefer counter-balanced swords, but having them does not make you a better fighter, and the good fighters could do well with any variety of sword construction. The only people who think that weapons make the fighter are not good fighters themselves. Realism is something else entirely, and I won't contest that as I am not a historian, but realism does not have anything to do with skill in the game itself.

I respect Amtgard fighters, but we have weight requirements specifically so that our fighting is not as fast and tappy as ours.

This is obviously untrue, as you can not respect fighters you obviously haven't met. The best fighters in Amtgard are NOT tap fighters. In fact, the idea of "tap fighting" is incredibly uncommon as you get closer to the core Amtgard lands(read: Texas). You are allowing yourself to be biased based off of the game people play, which means that you are not in fact respecting these people.

[Olos]

I do believe that rule, or something similar was introduced at Arnor. We had a few amtgard guys coming out with pommelweighted 40", 12 ounce swords and it was getting a little ridiculous. The guys were the match of any fighter on the field when using standard edhellen weapons, but with their swords, it was starting to get a little ridiculous

Since then, a few of them (will and the guy in the black/yellow from the video and the other guy I think) have been back out, but a couple haven't made it back. Of course, take this with a grain of salt, because my own attendance at Arnor is flaky at best.

[Juicer]

I actually just fought with an amtgard guy today who saw us fighting in the park. Can't remember his name for the life of me, but he said he'd been fighting for around ten years and it showed. The guy knew his ****. After I explained the minor differences in the rules we sparred a bit, and the only time I had to tell him anything was, "Actually that weapon isn't stabbing." But his form was fantastic. He said he's never been a fan of the lighter weapons. Then again, I'm now residing in Oklahoma... which is just north of Texas, so maybe that was it.

But yeah, a good fighter is a good fighter is a good fighter.

[Kerb]

I actually just fought with an amtgard guy today who saw us fighting in the park. Can't remember his name for the life of me, but he said he'd been fighting for around ten years and it showed. The guy knew his ****. After I explained the minor differences in the rules we sparred a bit, and the only time I had to tell him anything was, "Actually that weapon isn't stabbing." But his form was fantastic. He said he's never been a fan of the lighter weapons. Then again, I'm now residing in Oklahoma... which is just north of Texas, so maybe that was it.

But yeah, a good fighter is a good fighter is a good fighter.

Was he left or right handed?
If lefty then it was probably Drakkon
If Rightie then is was probably Arthur

[Wisp]

Oddly enough, I'm not really fighting with real swords trying to kill anyone. I'm playing a version of tag using 3" wide foam on a stick. I also wear tennis shoes while playing this game. Mandatory nerfing of weapon technology in the name of realisim in a game where I'm on the field with blue elves and green orcs is ridiculous.

Will

[MagnusofDregoth]

Please read my post above. It's as much a playability issue as it is a realism issue, at least that's my opinion.

[GvK]

Please read my post above. It's as much a playability issue as it is a realism issue, at least that's my opinion.

Seconded, the rule is for both playability AND realism and has a lot of merit. Feel free to keep on disagreeing but the intent is NOT some crusade to limit the creativity of foamsmiths, but to set a firm line on restricting weapons that balance in the handle, which are unrealisitc and more importantly, adversely affect the playability of Dagorhir, which is why it is a Dagorhir rule... I still think 90+% of Dag and Bel weapons will have no issues with this rule at all.

[Athron]

Oddly enough, I'm not really fighting with real swords trying to kill anyone. I'm playing a version of tag using 3" wide foam on a stick. I also wear tennis shoes while playing this game. Mandatory nerfing of weapon technology in the name of realisim in a game where I'm on the field with blue elves and green orcs is ridiculous.

Will

Oddly enough, I'm not really trying to play a game where I'm playing a mere version of tag using 3" wide foam on a stick. I'm playing a game that tries to reasonably approximate a safe version of medieval-style fantasy combat (which includes blue elves and green orcs) where we use 'real' swords to try to 'kill' someone. Allowing weapons technology to go completely unchecked against the core mission of the game I play is ridiculous.

Wisp, clearly we both have opinions and preferences on how foam combat 'ought' to be approached in our own individual perfect world. But I guess I don't entirely understand how you make the leap from having a *personal* preference of how weapons tech vs. realism approximation should be prioritized to calling it "ridiculous" that other people would have a different preference than your own. (and yes, I don't actually think its 'ridiculous' that you have a different preference than I do ).

And for all the people who heard that this rule was based on the premise of safety, whoever told you that baffling safety rationale was unfortunately extremely misinformed or just pulling out some explanation out of their *. Dislike the rule if you will, but don't dislike it for that reason, as that has absolutely nothing to do with why the rule was adopted.

[Arrakis]

I could draw a diagram (with a stack of kinematics calculations and momentum balances) showing why a stick weighted below one's hand can never be as fast AND hard-hitting (only one or the other) as a stick weighted just above the hand, but I don't feel like it would help.

I don't own anything that balances in the handle except perhaps my 23"-er. And I own so many weapons that fail in Dag for other reasons (that pass in Bel) that I really can't be bothered by some new rule that isn't going to fail any more of my gear.

[Satanaka]

After trying to read everything and a nose bleed- I was wondering:

What is the safety issue for where the "balance" is on a weapon? If no safety issue- your saying it's "realism"??? HA!

Seems like I almost agree with Arrakis on an earlier post.

[Arrakis]

Seems like I almost agree with Arrakis on an earlier post.

*Checks the sky to the east for the rising of the seven-headed dragon and listens for the hoof-beats of the Horsemen*

[Derian]

I don't think anyone said anything about it being a safety issue, only that it was motivated by realism and playability.

[Wisp]

Wisp, clearly we both have opinions and preferences on how foam combat 'ought' to be approached in our own individual perfect world. But I guess I don't entirely understand how you make the leap from having a *personal* preference of how weapons tech vs. realism approximation should be prioritized to calling it "ridiculous" that other people would have a different preference than your own. (and yes, I don't actually think its 'ridiculous' that you have a different preference than I do ).

The leap comes in exactly because of personal preference. I do not find anything what so ever about Dagorhir or Belegarth, Amtgard or even to a lesser degree the SCA to be anything more than a game. 20 somethings in garb (no matter how nice its still goofy) that in no way suspends my disbelief and places me firmly in your fantasy world is never ever ever going to happen. 90% of people fighting suck. 10% don't. I don't come to events to mingle with the 90% and pretend to kill people and be a hero. I come to play with the 10% that enjoy it as a competitive game and appreciate what it simply is without having to close my eyes and wish really really hard. Thats my perogative just as yours is to really pretend your in some fantasy medieval war. The rub comes in where rules are enacted to force my 10% that consider it a game and enjoy the sport of it to conform to a realism that is just NEVER going to be there in the name of realism. That said, I fully realize that there are great players that enjoy the realisitc and all that and I'm grossly generalizing, but it's just me making a point for the sake of discussion.

Leaving it a personal prefrence allows us both to get what we want out of the game. Restricting new ideas on weapon tech (that are not ridiculous) does not allow for new development. Whats good will stick around and the game evolves. Whats not so good goes the way of the dinosaur. The idea that a pommel weighted weapon so changes the dynamics of the game is utter crap. It's like saying flails are the uber doom weapon and should be banned because they are so unrealistic. They function exactly as they should in this game. Same as really crazy speed poles, war poles, massive red weapons, and your standard 3" wide broad sword popsicle stick. I can't think of a single one of those weapons that are remotely realistic or are used realistically with any degree of success.

If it were really a matter of playability and realisim, green hand weaons would function exactly as blues in regards to armor. Individual sections of armor would count as oppossed to target locations where a piece on your shin that gets blown allows your opponent to ignore the upper leg piece. But they don't work that way and thats ok because it's a game and thats the rules of how it works.

Hope that makes sense.

Will

[Bortas]

If it were really a matter of playability and realisim, green hand weaons would function exactly as blues in regards to armor.

End of discussion... well said.

-bort

[Juicer]

I actually just fought with an amtgard guy today who saw us fighting in the park. Can't remember his name for the life of me, but he said he'd been fighting for around ten years and it showed. The guy knew his ****. After I explained the minor differences in the rules we sparred a bit, and the only time I had to tell him anything was, "Actually that weapon isn't stabbing." But his form was fantastic. He said he's never been a fan of the lighter weapons. Then again, I'm now residing in Oklahoma... which is just north of Texas, so maybe that was it.

But yeah, a good fighter is a good fighter is a good fighter.

Was he left or right handed?
If lefty then it was probably Drakkon
If Rightie then is was probably Arthur

Just an update, I found out his name. Sir Mongo (or possibly Mondo).

[GvK]

If it were really a matter of playability and realisim, green hand weaons would function exactly as blues in regards to armor.

End of discussion... well said.

-bort

I actually (mostly) agree with that, but still think requiring weapons to balance above the handles is a good thing from a playability and realism perspective. Don't think I have anything left to add to this discussion...

[Forkbeard]

I counterweight all my weapons, becuase I use heavy cores and stuff. Most of my swords weigh like 20-26 ounces.
I've never made one that balaces below the handle.
Why do people do this? Is it becuase they pommel fight or what?
All my **** balances an inch or 2 up the blade.
FB

[Big King Jimmy]

Yah, I would assume pommel fighting is a big part. I pommel fight, and if I could get a sword to balance in the handle I would. I wonder what it would be like to swing with your hand PAST the balance point...

[Black Cat]

I wonder what it would be like to swing with your hand PAST the balance point...

On a lightsaber, the blade is made out of light (laser!), so all of the weapon's weight is in the hilt. That puts the balance point behind your hand instead of in front of it. I imagine that a sword with most of its weight in the pommel would feel the same way.

[Isk]

I've made a few like this before, mostly because I like really long handles - gives me options. When you are forward of the balance point with one hand it is fast, but weak. Hitting solidly is tougher and parrying/blocking effectively is harder too because you have no weight behind your shot. If you have a fair amount of handle below where you are holding it can also get squirelly to control as the momentum works against you on the heavy (pommel) side.

What is nice is being able to choke up and fight at a closer range when your opponent isn't expecting it and then slide back out to longer range once they adjust to that. Also, with two hands on it, you keep the control and can produce the power, but it is very, very fast. I have looked at these weapons as Belegarth approximations of a short hewing spear, something like a Zulu Assegai or iklwa, with counterweighting .

[Arrakis]

One more difference between Dag rules and Bel rules:

There is no "One swing, one hit" rule in Dag, so, if someone hits you in the arm and the leg with a swing, you take both and die.

[Cib]

One more difference between Dag rules and Bel rules:

There is no "One swing, one hit" rule in Dag, so, if someone hits you in the arm and the leg with a swing, you take both and die.

Is that in our rules simply to keep things simple? I think the Dag rule makes more sense here... Anyone care to explain what the Bel rule is this way?

[Oisin]

Yeah, but I've never seen that actually happen, because there's still a sufficient force rule. In Amtgard it happens a lot (as in, I've seen it happen at least once every time I've ever fought Amt), you see shots bounce from one location to another and there's no minimum force so both count, but I've never seen that happen in Dag.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I have hit people in both arms at the same time or very close. If I am hit in one swing with sufficient force in two location I will take both. The 1 swing 1 hit rule prevents me from picikng up two flails in the same hand and killing an armored opponent with 1 swing for 2 hits in the same location (torso).

[Cib]

The 1 swing 1 hit rule prevents me from picikng up two flails in the same hand and killing an armored opponent with 1 swing for 2 hits in the same location (torso).

Ah, that makes sense. I am now very much in favor of the rule!

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Taking a step back mentally a moment ago, between doing my job, planning my six sigma project, reading 3 different foam fighting message boards, and drinking my 4th cup of coffee... I just realized how **** reatardedly into these games some people are. I really like fighting. I go to practice every tuesday night for the last 9 years to fight in plain clothes, to ask, to teach, whatever, just to fight. I go to events to play a viking AND fight. I really don't see where the 90% flurb to 10% jock thing "had" to come from... I agree that most of the full contact foam fighting games allow for both groups to have their fun. And that's what makes them special and awsome! What I really don't get (as someone who cares quite a bit about skill, and a lot about drinking and wearing a kilt), is why if you have any problem at all with either "side", you don't go make your own game. I said this to numerous people recently at a Darkon campout. They actually complained about magic being in the game. I was like, "wait, you drove 2.5 hours to camp here for the weekend, and are complaining about something that has been in the game since 1980 something?!" I had managed at that point to fight about 5 hours without interacting with any magic at all... I guess people's need to vent about things they don't like at a "Game" they CHOOSE to attend strikes me as slightly retarded... I drank too much coffee... I gotta *...

Thrush
berserk

[Ralimar]

The 1 swing 1 hit rule prevents me from picikng up two flails in the same hand and killing an armored opponent with 1 swing for 2 hits in the same location (torso).

Was this supposed to be a stab at me, Soo Ma Tai??

[Bortas]

I really would love a video of quad-flail-entine...
-bort

[Black Cat]

I really would love a video of quad-flail-entine...
-bort

I'd like to see that too. Your mention of it brings back memories of Chaos Wars X.

[Cib]

Isn't there a video of quad-flail-entine from a Chaos Wars X?

[debuenzo]

Quad, the Inflailer?

[arashi]

Just for the record, I would be totally down with outlawing left-handed people.


;-)

[Soo Ma Tai]

I don't think there was Vid of that. You are talking about Ralimar picking up 4 flails and fighting in the flourentine tourney right?

[Cib]

I don't think there was Vid of that. You are talking about Ralimar picking up 4 flails and fighting in the flourentine tourney right?

Yup. There is a video of that somewhere. I was not in belegarth at that point and I saw it.

Unless you guys are talking 4 fails in one hand?

[Cib]

At about 22:30 in to the video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... egarth+CWX

[Bortas]

Good find, thanks for that... Rali uses that a few times in the video.

-bort

[Rasheab]

I dig the curvey swords at 20:00.

Overall, that's a pretty nifty video.

[BattleChrist]

Just for the record, I would be totally down with outlawing left-handed people.


;-)

Gonna have to do with a big old no on that one champ, I love my leftyness.

[bangor]

A pity it's become illegal. We're just going to have to tie that bad boy behind your back.

[Slagar]

Not our fault we're inherently better at this game. You could learn, we'll help. Here, for those of you born with the disability of the majority:

1. Start by getting your right hand broken all to hell, and then go from there.

[Soo Ma Tai]

As a righty, you have all the same advantages as a lefty when you fight against one. The only difference is they usually have the experience from that position that the average righty does not. My suggestion.....find a lefty and fight them....a lot....and then some more. You'll eventually get some skill against them. I know I did, thanks to having a couple leftys in realm here. I still am only very effective against newer leftys, BC cranks me nearly every time, but that's cause he's crazy good...and a lefty.

[Lurker]

http://www.electricsamurai.com/main_pag ... ir=General

Written by Brennon's squire, who is a lefty^

[Solusar]

Someone posted his how to kill a 3-shot left video. Pretty good stuff.