lol yessssss.

Not really a change Ballak. Here's the Dagorhir rule as it has been played for years: "4.5.3.8. If the arrow is deflected it is considered to have hit. "


The only change was adding the words 'even minutely' for clarity. How many Belegarth archers call out "Don't take that, it only deflected 25 degrees"?

As someone pointed out earlier, our rules only vary in the footnotes. Sure, for an archer this might seem largish, but it is still a detail. For those transitioning from Dag to Bel rules - work on your aim!

Last night, while heralding the local dag practice, I watched an archer call no less than three consecutive dag-legal barely-glancing hits. Had it been Bel rules I would have taken him off the field. So, even more than working on your aim, remember to call conservatively.

Jimmy, feel free not to visit.

...


.........


/click

I don't know how many Bel archers or marshals call off a shot for not deflecting enough at other events, but at Chaos this year, it happened pretty regularly (at least once a day to me). Arrows, javelins, and rocks graze all the time in Bel, and shouldn't be counted. I'm not picking a fight, this is just my experience.

I agree with giggles, I saw quite a few small deflections that were called as "nothing, don't take that", at Chaos Wars this year. I admit that most of the archers on the field * CW are very skilled and know their stuff well enough to make the right calls. This may not be the case where there are a lot of newer archers.

Battlechrist i'm sure you have figured this all out now and i am beating a dead horse. To be honest i've always fought both bel and dag. ones on saturday.. others on sunday.. In actual combat other than a few rules (that rarely seem to ever even come up out here) you would not even be able to tell the difference.

Where i see a major difference (yes i have to agree with you Magnus) is that bel seems to have much more lean back i'm very serious i want to beat you no matter what attitude. And also.. For whatever reason.. Garb. Dag seems to have way more people concerned with garb and their kits in general.

Bel is jockier, Dag is flurbier.

Dag loves garb and characterization and generally loves new people even if they don't have any interest in improving as fighter.

Bel loves skill and good fighting and doesn't generally care about garb and refuses to tolerate new people who have no desire to not suck.

As mainly a Dag fighter that offends me.
But it would offend me if I was mainly a Bel fighter too.

I don't discriminate with my offensiveness.

As mainly a Bel fighter, in doesn't offend me, and I find it pretty true.

Hey Halbrust,

You still coming out this way soon?

I'd PM you, but you've still got it turned off

No I'm not. I would have been out that way to visit my Granmother, and she has passed away.

I'll check my settings and see if I can figure out how to turn my PMs on.

To be honest.. The word flurb.. or as i would put it flub, Has always been used as a term to describe someone who flubs shots. Is that what you mean by flurb?

No, he means more emphasis on RP and garb.

Sloughing (as a reptile may do to its skin) is the act of blowing off shots. "Flub" isn't even a word and just sounds dumb.

"Flurb" means "LARPiness" and "Flurbiness" means "Having qualities of being more about the flavor of the game than the sport aspects".

You should do some research before you talk out your * Arrakis.

Flub - –verb (used with object), verb (used without object) 1. to perform poorly; blunder; bungle: He flubbed the last shot and lost the match.

Thanks for the plain response Jimmy.

Chill, peeps.

I think Arrakis is pretty right. A large part of Dag seems unconcerned with pushing the boundaries of foamfighting. This same percentage also seems largely preoccupied with creating "epic moments" of glory charges complete with warcries and all that jazz. However, there is a growing trend of the younger generation (akayoungbloods) growing up who see the stagnation in Dag and are pushing themselves to improve their fighting, to improve their skill. I know my realm "Albion" is definitely one of these youngblood realms. Basically, yeah there are some cool kids who don't really push the fighting in Dag, but there's plenty of Dag kids fighting like stick jocks. I think Rag gives a decent example of how Dag is. I can go through 20 guys who haven't the slightest idea what a Darkside wrap is or a skyhook, before I square up with a youngblood (or five) whose gonna give me a good run for my money.


As for Belegarth being mostly stick-jocks, I dont know. All I've experienced with Bel fighters is one Bel-event down in Georgia, along with fighting whatever Bel kids have shown up for Rag, Ides, day-events.

So far my experience has been pretty much in keeping with Arrakis pov. Bel tends to be more stick jock and Dag more flurb.

Each has it's place. Seems to be an odd trend, but a true one from my perspective.

I would also like to point out that it is pure awesome that Flurb is now part of the common Belegarth vocab. Hooray for cross-gaming.

Will

Very little emphasis on flurbing in the founding Dag realm, the Aratari. Much more stick (er, flail) jocking, though the average age demographic keeps climbing. I think an emphasis on fighting and garb/appearance is a GREAT thing (think Magnus of T.) . They are not mutually exclusive!

You do not understand the term fully then. To use a flail is one of the key ways to be a flurb and runs contrary to stick jockery.

* dirty flurbs.

Will

Will, it seems to me like there are a lot of nuances associated with the term flurb that many in Belegarth/Dagorhir (myself included) haven't picked up on yet.

I'm going to coin what Roman Brutus said: Belegarth is more focused on the sport aspect, and Dagorhir is more focused on the creative aspect. There are, of course, exceptions on both sides. But generally speaking, Belegarth has more intense fighters, but has a problem with poor garb, cheap armor, and many fighters would rather buy a weapon than make one.

And if you want to argue with me about this: You're wrong. I'm right cuz I've been doing this longer. Unless you're GvK. Or Soo Ma Tai... But he took a break in the middle.

Derian,

You are not a flurb. Thats all you really need to know. I'm basing that off our exploits together at Gates of Summer. You are welcome to field with us at Lord of War btw...

Will

Heh, despite my being unclear of the term flurb, I know I'm not one. Thanks for the vote of confidence, though.

Actually Ralimar, I think your (and Brutus') above post was pretty much right on the money...

I'll try to clarify flurb for you. No small task, it has a variety of meanings depending on who you talk to. The Amtwiki has the following entry on Flurb, and it is pretty close to my own take on it. Maybe a little harsh, but yeah... it is what it is...


-------------
"the flurb is someone so far gone that they're trying to escape the realities of a game designed to escape from reality."-Oznog
The origins of the term "Flurb" may stem from video games.
In general it is a derogatory term to refer to people who are more into the role-playing aspects of amtgard, especially in a negative way. It's original meaning was used to describe someone so socially inept, that they made us regular geeks embarrassed & put off.
How to explain it... to some, anyone who role-plays is a flurb. But someone who role-plays a half-dragon/half elf sorcerer with blue swords is more of a flurb than someone who simply roleplays a samurai warrior.
It is generally assumed that most flurbs take the role-playing aspects more seriously than the sport aspects of amtgard, usually to the detriment of their fighting ability. So being able to fight well might make one less of a flurb.
In recent years, some role-players have embraced the term and use it with pride as a resistance to the "other side", e.g., the ditch-first Stick Jock mentality that is prevalent in many parts of Amtgard today.
[edit]Variations of the word flurb might include:
Flurb-Fu - any melodramatic combat tactics that are generally ineffective
Flurbiness - The flurb factor of something. E.g., the Elven Court has a high degree of "Flurbiness"
Flurbery - The act of being a flurb.
--------------

Annnnd, there ya go. I find most Dag fighters possess an amazing amount of Flurb-Fu. Bel on the other hand seems to be pretty solid.

Will

Seems to me that flurb can be, and more often is, used pejoratively; that is, in a condescending/insulting manner--usually by stick jocks that don't give a * about trying to look more than vaguely medieval. In my opinion, if flurb is constrained to folks that try to look good while fighting, or not fighting but at an event, in terms of their garb and equipment appearance, than I'm all for it. If flurb primarily refers to role-playing (and associated acting/drama), than I'm not cool with it. I DO try to have great-looking garb, armor, and equipment, and I strive to fight well and use historical fighting techniques when I can do so safely and effectively. I don't think I've ever role-played in terms of what I say on and off the field at a Dag/Bel event, and definitely not in how I fight. So does that make me a stick jock with excellent garb and equipment?

Labels...ppffftttt!

"Good-looking stick jock" is not an oxymoron.

i disagree, they are rarely in the same place but not exclusive to each other.

you can be a well garbed stick jock, just as you can be a **** garbed flurb. and i find flurbs to usually be more worried about fighting in a character style vs what is effective for them. example, a 90 lbs person using a big tower shield because they are a dwarf, or for that matter a 90lbs pounder using a heavy mace, same reason. they cant actually have the muscle mass to use the weapon to any use, in our game at any rate.

or a 350 lbs person fighting with 2 short swords. they just dont have the foot speed to be able to position themselve for good fighting effectiveness.

some others are using equipment that doesnt even work well in the game. oversized reds, blues so short that you have to stand on the person to swing. shields so small or so big the cover nothing or cant be swung around to hit the opponent.

that is what i would call a flurb, and the kicker is, if you tell them they should use something more rational to there fighting style/size, they will jump up and down defending their position. to funny.

Holy crap, much as happened since I left.
I believe fighting anything ,no matter what, is fun and an excellent way to keep you and your mind sharp.
Dag or Belegarth
Darkon or Amtgard
Great things to do!
Pardon the interruption

In all fairness to the Dagorhirim (sp?), I encountered and witnessed (and fell victim to) some awesome fighting at Rag this summer. I recall one young sword and boarder during the Friday night fighting, from either Albion or Eryndor, who was legged and single-handedly held the left flank at the 'edge of the world', killing or backing up no less than FOUR opponents. And his opponents were not slouches, by any means! I witnessed him do this not once, but twice. I wish I could remember his name...

In Amtgard at least, most of the higher end fighters tend to have really good garb. Not necessarily period good garb, but it looks great. The reason for this is one of two things usually. They either possess a great amount of A&S skill (having competition breeds excellence, one of the things Amtgard does really well) as most of our Knights are very well rounded players, or, the A&S up and comers looking to make a name for themselves like to make nice things and have them worn by our higher profile people so when asked "where did you get that", they respond, "so and so". Its a good way of building up rep in the A&S community.

So, being a well dressed fighter does not make you a flurb at all.

Will

PS. Regarding good Dag fighters... the ones I've encountered that are DAG and not Bel player crossing over at Dag events that I've encountered in the last few years are...

Aiden
Magnus

Thats really about it. I've seen some good for Dag fighters, but not too many GOOD fighters. There really seems to be zero interest in attempting to even try and learn. Magnus's attempt at creating better stick with his Academy is a great push in the right direction for Dag over all, but really I think his talent pool available to teach is very limited and he can't do it all by himself. I would much rather have seen him work with an event like SKBC. Since Dag is pretty insular and all afraid of the boogy man, they will just have to be happy being flurbtastic and figure out how to un-stagnate on their own.

My local area is pretty Dag heavy over all but my closest park is Bel.

Now, the good fighters I've encountered at Dag that are good fighters that are Bel cross over fighters are a good number more and a fairly decent list. But they are still Bel fighters. My local Bel park has several people I consider GOOD fighters. I can't wait for Lord of War and I'm hitting up Ok fest this year so getting to do more Bel centric stuff this year which I've not been able to do for the last few years.

Flurb doesn't really have a solid, well-accepted definition. The Amtwiki definition is close, but Flurb meant something completely different 10 years ago than it means now.

10 years ago, being a flurb meant being so socially inept that you were an outcast within a game who's member pool is largely consisting of social outcasts. Your persona was a were-shark draco-lich, you were born in an alternate dimension, and you are the greatest swordsman among your people. Of course, when you actually fight, you use dual-quarterstaves, and die in one shot to anyone, but that's beside the point. Flurbs fail at every endeavor they attempt, such as making garb, or fitting in, or fighting, or getting laid.

Nowadays, while still typically a derogatory term, it isn't as harsh. Some people only are referred to as flurbs as a joke, some people are only flurbs because they don't fight a lot, and some people use the term similarly to how some black people use the N word in modern times. Still, flurbs generally can't fight very well, and are more concerned with their own personal fun than things like fitting in or making sure games are balanced or whatever.

There are lots of jokes related to flurbs. A common one is the medication Flurbiprofen, which helps to treat pains in the wrist. Flurbs are limp-wristed and so of course they need the stuff.

Thanks for the props, Will!
When I get time to fling foam I definitely try to always improve my skill. I've been a bit stagnant lately with mundane life, but me and my boys in Albion still throwdown and definitely aren't flurbs.

Bruce,
can you describe the fighter to me? I would almost be willing to bet it was one of my boys from the Sons of Tara/Albion who was tearing up the flank.

I'm embarassed that I can't remember his name, but I believe it was the guy in this photo with the spear (or somebody who looks a lot like him- I remember him being a little taller than me...)

Bruce,
That was Clifton from the Sons of Tara in Albion. Glad to hear he repped the unit/realm hard at Rag.

Good, now come to Lord of War and throw down!

Will

Dammit, Aiden, why couldn't you be at Ragnarok?

At least all the Albion guys who were there were awesome.

Wisp, I thank you very much for your generous appraisal of my fighting skillz. I have to say, though, that Dagorhir's level of fighting competitiveness has increased DRAMATICALLY in the 8 years I've been doing it. The night-fighting at this year's Ragnarok, for example, included more high-skill fighters than entirety of several battles at Ragnarok 17 (Including those Albion mofos) and had an overall tone of competitive excellence coupled with collegial sportsmanship. That is, everyone was fighting to a) show off how good they are, b) get better, and c) have fun.

Flurbs, conversely, seem to focus only on the "c" part, but assume that the experience is going to be completely fulfilling without having to put any work in. I think the expending of effort is what makes someone a non-flurb, at least in the sense I understand it. However, in many ways, I consider myself to be extremely flurby--I made a period-accurate tent for Rag this year, I made a ton of period-accurate garb from wool and linen, I underwent a long and arguably time-wasting knighting trial and ceremony (for that matter, I call myself a "knight" on the battlefield, which is clearly LARPish as I am not in real life a knight) and I generally take pride in my appearance as an authentic re-creation of a mid-14th century knight.

But, I am also definitely a stick jock. I don't think the two categories are mutually exclusive, personally.

On another note, I wish more Dag and Bel people took pride in their appearance. Whatever you may say about the garb worn by many sword knights in Amtgard--that it is completely modern in appearance and bears little to no resemblance to clothing from any historical period--it is obvious that a lot of effort goes into it, and it looks good.

Oznog's statement that it refers to those who attempt to escape the reality of an escape from reality seems just about right.

Magnus,

Regarding fighting at Dag... I didn't make it this year, had too much going on. Last year my assessment was outside of the Bel folk I knew were cross over players, exactly 2 Dagorhirm stood out. You, Aiden. The rest were average. I'm sure that it is entirely possible that I missed someone as there were a lot of people there. But, I was on the pseudo-ditch every night, and I was there for all of the tourneys. In my mind, they should have been visible at some point on one of those occasions. I can't get a very good feel for it inside of the big meat grinder battles because your so closely compacted that that sort of evaluation goes right out of the window. Now, I'm by no stretch top tier for Amtgard, but I am good at my Kingdom level, and I do well in Bel/Dag/SCA. I can hold my own at IK events. I am able to judge good from average so take my opinions with a grain of salt. I've been to a lot of Dag events this year, and it really has been a matter of Bel players in attendance standing out head and shoulders over the Dag fighters. I think if the cross gaming trend continues, that will close gap as more and more people compete together.

Regarding Garb etc... attention to detail in historical accuracy does not make you a flurb in the least. It's really neat by my estimation. It sticks out like a sore thumb in boffer groups because it is the exception. The stick jock type garb you see in Amtgard that is more modern flair, is that way because in my opinion, we're never going to be a group that embraces the historical attention to detail and DO IT WELL. Since maybe a very small handful of people are able to pull it off, the rest of the herd look horrible and make the game look that much more dorkier. The modern flair garb may not be period, and yes, its still nerdy, but it looks cool. Thats a great middle ground. Its hard to come up with period looking kit that doesn't look retarded, or is actually close to accurate, but anyone can come up with some nifty bell tunics that look sweet. For those playing the game for the sport, the historical aspect really isn't a concern, so again, back to the modern looking flair garb. Looks good, functions well, identifiable. Win Win, Win.

Will

"Flurb" and "putting time and effort into your garb and making it look good including possibly historically accurate if that's a priority to you" have nothing to do with each other. I know flurbs who look like crap (in every medieval game I've ever taken part in, including Bel, Dag, Amtgard and the SCA) and don't put effort into their appearance. I also know very highly skilled fighters (I don't like the term stick jock because in my view it implies that fighting is the only thing they care about, and because I didn't get along with jocks in high school) in all those same games who look great, some of whom have put a lot of effort and research into making their garb look period. In my experience, the two axes of fight vs. flurb and looking good vs. looking like crap have almost no correlation.

PS--By bell tunics, do you mean a kyrtle/what in Dagorhir (thanks to Alric's excellent tutorial based on the kyrtle from the Bocksten man) is called a Bocksten tunic? Those were a staple of fashion for hundreds of years during the middle ages. Cut them a bit longer and pick the right fabrics in the right colors, and they look great for being period. Still takes a bit of research, but it's not that hard.

Of course, that's just me being an archaeologist and being really geeky about that sort of thing.

I have a feeling that the differences between Dagorhir and Belegarth are simply whatever the authors of the Belegarth Rulebook either added, subtracted or reworded to The Daorhir MOA to circumvent the copyright clause. Find a rule book from each group from 10 yrs ago and compare them.. then you'll have your answer.

Peace.

You're new to our boards so I'll be extra nice, but please check the dates on a thread before you post. This one has been dormant for over a year.

that's fine, but the answer to his question wasn't given properly.

This seems like an answer to a question no one asked. This thread is the differences now, not then. How would it be helpful to anyone what the differences were ten years ago?

This answer plus your knowledge of the split and the fact you put your fighting career started in 96 makes me wonder if you dug up a year and a half old thread to troll. Maybe growing up in the age of the internet has made me suspicious of everyone's motives on boards but it is still there. If it was done in honesty then I'm sorry.

plain and simple, he asked what the difference between Dag and Bel are, that's the straightest answer I know of. Honestly.

No his question is about the difference as far as fighting. he wanted to know for crossover reason,like hey if I go to event what will the main difference be, not about the split or copy rights, BC has been around long enough to know all about that.
If your answer was the best you know how to give, then perhaps you should listen more and answer less.

Do not the rules of the game dictate the fighting of the organization? I'm certain they do.

That's why we love you's guys. Look forward to tearin' **** up with you guys this year.

They do. But you neither stated the rules of this game nor the rules of the other therefore only bringing an answer that was not helpful at all. You also referred to the rules of both games ten years ago; in ten years a lot can (and has) changed. Either you haven't looked at one or the other sets of rules since then, or the answer was either deliberately or unintentionally outdated and therefore useless.