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I guess I don't see why there's not a more obvious distinction between DBGA Inc. and Aratari, a chapter of DBGA Inc. Why is it that Aratari has ownership of the national website and hotline for example? This is really confusing to me. The Aratari WC can create "organization rules" that... do what? Are those rules only applicable at Aratari events then (house rules)? Doesn't that violate the DBGA chapter contact?Kyrax wrote:Uh Giggles - those bylaws are the rules that run the local Washington, DC group, not national Dagorhir or other chapters. So your premise is off base to say the least. The War Council they talk about is the Aratari War Council, comprising its member unit reps.
I'm guessing you thought that meant the Ragnarok War Council, something where every Dagorhir chapter has a voice (and a vote). Nope, it's an apple, not an orange. Sorry.
I figured it was something like that, but once again, does he have the power to veto changes in Aratari rules, or DBGA entirely?And Brian Wiese, an old friend of mine, wrote the Dagorhir Handbook in 1977 and still retains his copyright to that work.
I'm not sniping or trolling, I'm just trying to make a little more sense out of the situation. It's **** hard to find any relevant information or bookkeeping regarding the actual organizational structure of DBGA.And yeah, shooting at that target here is preaching to the choir. And its feeding the "Belegarth is out to get us still" crud I hear from the other side. Move on, swing swords, kill your friends and maybe, just maybe we can put all of the crud behind us.
Giggles wrote: I guess I don't see why there's not a more obvious distinction between DBGA Inc. and Aratari, a chapter of DBGA Inc. Why is it that Aratari has ownership of the national website and hotline for example? This is really confusing to me. The Aratari WC can create "organization rules" that... do what? Are those rules only applicable at Aratari events then (house rules)? Doesn't that violate the DBGA chapter contact?
Giggles wrote:I figured it was something like that, but once again, does he have the power to veto changes in Aratari rules, or DBGA entirely?And Brian Wiese, an old friend of mine, wrote the Dagorhir Handbook in 1977 and still retains his copyright to that work.
Giggles wrote:I'm not sniping or trolling, I'm just trying to make a little more sense out of the situation. It's **** hard to find any relevant information or bookkeeping regarding the actual organizational structure of DBGA.
wat?DBGA is the Aratari
There are no staffs in Belegarth. Because of how they are constructed, they are really Pugil Sticks.
Giggles wrote:Kyrax wrote:DBGA is the Aratari
wat?
What is DBGA?
What is Dagorhir?
What is Aratari?
That's a little more clear. I'll probably take a few days to see if I can understand the situation a little better. So... DBGA owns the rights to the Dagorhir name and resources and contracts out the right to use the name and resources and so forth. Who runs DBGA? Do they have a BoD? Bylaws? Website?DBGA is a non-profit group that operates one of those local entities, the Aratari, and licenses the rights to use the name of Dagorhir and its resources like the web board, Handbook, MoA, etc. to other local/regional groups. Each local groups operates itself, some as college clubs, others as independent legal entities (typically non-profits), others as informal groups of friends.
Giggles wrote:Once again, thanks for the reply. I don't think there's any reason to be hostile here but I'm still trying to sort things out.
Giggles wrote:That's a little more clear. I'll probably take a few days to see if I can understand the situation a little better. So... DBGA owns the rights to the Dagorhir name and resources and contracts out the right to use the name and resources and so forth. Who runs DBGA? Do they have a BoD? Bylaws? Website?DBGA is a non-profit group that operates one of those local entities, the Aratari, and licenses the rights to use the name of Dagorhir and its resources like the web board, Handbook, MoA, etc. to other local/regional groups. Each local groups operates itself, some as college clubs, others as independent legal entities (typically non-profits), others as informal groups of friends.
Giggles wrote:Finally, the black and white "you're either with us or against us" attitude is the reason that people like you and me get frustrated. It's not that simple and I'm sure you know that. Honestly, I feel a little sorry for Dagorhir. Their website's a mess, their chapter contracts are a little backwards, and their governing documents are MIA.
Arrakis wrote: Kyrax, RELAX. You can't just go assuming that Bel folks are trying to look for something to go "AH-HA!" at or you're just feeding the attitude yourself.
Arrakis wrote: I don't know how Dagorhir, as an organization, is run. I do know how Bel is run. I'm now IN A DAGORHIR CHAPTER. I wish I knew how Dag was run. But I don't. Can you explain it any better than "DGBA is Aratari and they allow Dagorhir 'Chapters' to use the name 'Dagorhir' if they sign a contract and the Chapters have no say in the governance of the organization as a whole and only have input into the rules of the game at the RWC"? Or is that highly abnormal situation the actual fact of the matter?
Really?Kyrax wrote:...this thread is an “AH-HA”, and given the extensive history of Dagorhir bashing here and this thread’s proximity to the start of Ragnarok, one can put two and two together and not get five.
Rasheab wrote:"As with the basic premise of the Dagorhir Game Rules System, common sense supersedes perceived loopholes in these Bylaws."
Is that really in their bylaws? Are they a legally recognized organization? Because that is the sketchiest legalese I've (almost) ever heard. I'm reasonably sure you can't write in "common sense overrules" in your bylaws and have it hold up in a court.
I second Giggles' questions, for clarification on this subject:
"What is DBGA?
What is Dagorhir?
What is Aratari?"
If what Giggles quoted is not the Dagorhir corporate bylaws, where does one find them?
(Incidently, when I googled 'Dagorhir corporate bylaws' I got the form which Giggles cited in his original post.)
Athron wrote:DBGA has never told us what to do, how to do it, nor intervened or attempted to control us. We have always done exactly what we want, how we want to do it, for whatever reason we want to do it. I can objectively say that has been my experience with running Dagorhir chapters.
I'm sorry if my actual experience does not match the hypothetical experience some people think Dagorhir chapters ought to be experiencing.
Arrakis wrote:The plural of anecdote...
Athron wrote:Turd-Burgler
Giggles wrote:Athron, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that DBGA has a near perfect track record when it comes to not interfering with their chapters. That doesn't make their system of governance any good.
That's only because it's so difficult to actually do anything in DBGA. I'm sure you're pretty well versed in the bylaws so I don't need to tell you that unless you're one of the few unit leaders regularly showing up to Maryland area events, you can't vote on rules and bylaw amendments (which nobody's going to pay attention to anyway). You can't criticize Dagorhir on their messageboard. There's not exactly a lot to do anyway.a given level of participation at the local level reaps greater rewards than a unit of participation at the national level
Giggles wrote: Kyrax, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. What would you prefer I say?
Giggles wrote: That's only because it's so difficult to actually do anything in DBGA. I'm sure you're pretty well versed in the bylaws so I don't need to tell you that unless you're one of the few unit leaders regularly showing up to Maryland area events, you can't vote on rules and bylaw amendments (which nobody's going to pay attention to anyway).
Arrakis, If you play with Anvard, ask your chapter’s leadership about who helped that group start up. The answer might surprise you.
Kyrax wrote:The problem I’ve been trying to communicate is that you’re all assuming that Dagorhir ought be run as a heirarchical democracy, while I’ve been explaining Dagorhir’s autonomous collective or, small “r”, republican system. Think America of the Articles of Confederation, rather than of the Constitution. Also in Dagohir all chapters can vote on the RWC, which has more de facto influence on the group as a whole. The same can’t be said for new Belegarth chapters. So an argument can be made that either is more representative than the other.
Giggles wrote:One more question: where can I find the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System? Is it the same thing as The Handbook and Dagorhir Manual of Arms found here? http://dagorhir.com/dagorhir/Rules.htm
Did I finally nail it?
Thrush wrote:Having talked to SO many people outside of the MD/DC/VA area in Dag, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of the country DOES NOT CARE what the hell goes on in Aratari land.... Like, not one bit. They are opponents at national events, that is all.
Elebrim wrote:Kyrax, on the inter-chapter level I see your point. Ultimately, each realm's local existence is its own, and it is responsible for its own local governance and self-maintenance. So in that regard, everything is ok. The issue, I think, is that of the copyright. In order to be considered Dagorhir, a realm must accept and uphold the Chapter Contract in order to use Dagorhir copyrighted material. Am I correct thus far?
If so, then this is the issue - the DBGA/Brian Weise, through copyright ownership of "Dagorhir," ultimately reserve sole control over which groups have permission to use "Dagorhir" (i.e. belong in Dagorhir) via the Chapter Contract.
Kyrax wrote:The other problem with your theory is that Brian Weise holds the copyright to the "Dagorhir Handbook", not the Service Mark for the name. He would not get involved in an individual chapter's behavior. He's authorized the use of his work to DBGA and relies on their protection of it. Basically he's totally hands off and really has no negative feelings towards Belegarth, Amtgard, Emarthengarth, Darkon or any other group that has taken his original idea and run with it. Personally he is kind of flattered by the fact that so many people have fun with it in different ways. He'd really be tickled if folks acknowledged that initial inspiration, but doesn't expect anything. And doing so has no risks as there's no copyright on ideas like whacking your friends with foam weapons.
Elebrim wrote:The main point, though, is that the use of legal contracts and controls does still create certain possibilities. Even if those possibilities are never exploited, their existence alone can be a problem.
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