Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

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Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby The Great Gigsby » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:27 am

Let me preface this with a few things. This post is 100% sincere. I know that can be hard to convey online, but I stand behind everything I've stated. There is no sarcasm, deceit, or conspiracy going on here. I am just a dude. Don't read too far between the lines because I'm not that smart. Here we go...

I'm sure that I'm being a little extreme and that the sky probably isn't falling.

I am also aware that Belegarth's Bylaws aren't a work of art. Don't try to turn the focus on Bel or similar organizations. There are ups and downs to every game. I am trying to be thoughtful, concise, and objective here. I ask that you be the same.

---

Okay, maybe I'm a little new to this Belegarth/Dagorhir thing, but have you guys bothered to read the Dagorhir Bylaws and Contract lately?

http://www.dagorhir.com/aratari/rules/bylaws.pdf

This is so ridiculous, I don't even know where to start.

1. The bylaws are preceded with with this gem. "As with the basic premise of the Dagorhir Game Rules System, common sense supersedes perceived loopholes in these Bylaws." Common sense? Really? DBGA bylaws don't even come close to common sense as anyone who actually bothers to read them would come to understand. Is it common sense to let a coalition of geographically approximate people (I'm being gracious here) oversee and adjust the rules that a national organization follows? What about a single person (Brian Weise?). I can't think of a "common sense" precedent for this. What is common about DBGA War Council, or BoD, or Brian Weise?

2. Who the hell is Brian Wiese anyway, and why does he have absolute veto over the rulebook? Who is this guy? How can this even still happen in America of all places? Why does Dagorhir even need a War Council or BoD when you've got Brian Weise around.

3. A simple majority amongst the five elected members of the DBGA BoD can officiate a change within DBGA Bylaws and rules. 3 out of 5 "elected" board members can do whatever the hell they want, while it takes a 3/4 WC vote to expel a DBGA board member. How is it reasonable that 3 people are indisputably superior to a hypothetical infinite number of WC members? What is the point of even having a War Council when 3 out of 5 BoD members can veto whatever proposals they choose?

4. When and how do board meetings actually transpire? It's not hard to imagine a board member not being able to attend a meeting, reducing an already substantial 3 out of 5 majority to a 3 out of 4.

5. Dagorhir hotline. :roll:

6. Why are none of the BoD proceedings made public? Things like waivers collected, minutes recorded, and rules distributed are left completely to the whim of the secretary. Then everyone apparently gets irked when the rules change. "Substantial force" is now "noticeable force." Spears can now flex 90 degrees. I'm sure glad DBGA doesn't care that anyone knows these things. The treasurer is only obligated to release reports of income and expenditures to the BoD and WC. And only on request. Wouldn't it make sense for the people paying to go to DBGA events to be able to see where their money is actually going?

7. A member of the BoD structures the WC agenda. Doesn't that render WC completely obsolete? Wow. Nix any hypothetical power the WC actually has. The magistrate has absolute control for at least 2 years.

---

In summation, Dagorhir (every Dagorhir chapter, event, and member) is at the mercy of a simple majority of 4 to 5 people that every 2 years might be elected by a group of geographically centered people who actually have no power to elect those 5 people. Those 4 to 5 people can make any change they want to DBGA bylaws and rules. Rule changes of course, can be vetoed by Brian Weise who could just as easily be removed by a simple majority vote of the BoD. As I understand it, it wouldn't be hard for 3 members of the BoD to completely take over and run DBGA however they see fit.

So you potentially have 3 people that have ultimate control over the direction of a national NPO.

I'm no legal expert, but how can this be right? How can an organization continue to be run like this?

Please tell me I'm wrong.

One last thing; forgive me if I'm being naive, but I'd also like to know who's a member of the BoD and WC and if any BoD/WC members would be willing to share the organizations’ rule books, supplements, periodicals, announcements, advertisements, and recruitment flyers as well as a written report of income and expenditures. I would be more than willing to keep that information private if necessary.

[EDIT]I edited out some negative remarks that I didn't think were all that constructive and major spelling errors.
Last edited by The Great Gigsby on Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
-Giggles

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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws are a Joke

Postby Satanaka » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:08 am

Giggles- as much as I hate to say this- it is the best advice I know- play the game, enjoy yourself, help others along the way and stand up for what you believe- voice your opinion but listen to others.

At least 85% of members have never read or care- they just want to play and have fun. It is sad and scarry.

I tend to speak out when I think something is wrong or leading us in a similar direction- many others have felt the same way BUT do not voice their opinions due to the trolls on the boards. I don't mind being un-popular I do care about the game.

I think that during/ after the spilt- Dag got VERY strict and controlling. It did NOT use to be this way. Some people thought they had to "protect" Dagorhir- many used it as a tool to gain power and control.

This is why I have advocated for Belegarth to be as transparent as possible in our government, records, money and rules. Of course we will seldom have 100% agreement but- I do think we work together well.

I hope this does not discourage you or anyone not to play- It's still one of the most fun games I have ever played.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws are a Joke

Postby SnoJoo » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:13 am

I have to agree. They are really strict. They have given a lot of power to only like 6 people (Magistrate and BOD). Just out of thought there is also a section on "Active Units" that kind of made me * my eyebrow. To be an "Active Unit" in Dag. you basically have to have 6 requirements and on top of that have to basically impress the Magistrate because he decides if you are a recognized unit or not.

I see this as a problem because let's say the Magistrate is a *. You and 10 guys from your realm have been in a unit for 2 years. You've made your banner, you've been to 2 WC meeting, you've been to 6 events, etc.... However you and the Mag. don't see eye to eye. That could result in all your and your units hard work going down the drain. That's dumb.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws are a Joke

Postby Skorr » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:29 pm

Um, yeah. Not to discourage you from speaking your mind, but that's why we started Belegarth. You're preaching to the choir here. There's a small chance you'll reach out to someone who hasn't grasped this yet, but chances are if they're reading the Belegarth board they realize the totalitarianism of their organization.

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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws are a Joke

Postby Kyrax » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:15 pm

Uh Giggles - those bylaws are the rules that run the local Washington, DC group, not national Dagorhir or other chapters. So your premise is off base to say the least. The War Council they talk about is the Aratari War Council, comprising its member unit reps.

I'm guessing you thought that meant the Ragnarok War Council, something where every Dagorhir chapter has a voice (and a vote). Nope, it's an apple, not an orange. Sorry.

And Brian Wiese, an old friend of mine, wrote the Dagorhir Handbook in 1977 and still retains his copyright to that work. Make sense?

"Dagorhir Hotline" - an archaic form on telephonic communication predating automated voice mail and the internet. I once ran it for the Aratari, eons ago. Now it's on voicemail somewhere and is used locally in conjuction with the internet and email lists to advertise events and the like for that chapter.

And yeah, shooting at that target here is preaching to the choir. And its feeding the "Belegarth is out to get us still" crud I hear from the other side. Move on, swing swords, kill your friends and maybe, just maybe we can put all of the crud behind us. :knight:
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws are a Joke

Postby The Great Gigsby » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:00 pm

Kyrax wrote:Uh Giggles - those bylaws are the rules that run the local Washington, DC group, not national Dagorhir or other chapters. So your premise is off base to say the least. The War Council they talk about is the Aratari War Council, comprising its member unit reps.

I'm guessing you thought that meant the Ragnarok War Council, something where every Dagorhir chapter has a voice (and a vote). Nope, it's an apple, not an orange. Sorry.
I guess I don't see why there's not a more obvious distinction between DBGA Inc. and Aratari, a chapter of DBGA Inc. Why is it that Aratari has ownership of the national website and hotline for example? This is really confusing to me. The Aratari WC can create "organization rules" that... do what? Are those rules only applicable at Aratari events then (house rules)? Doesn't that violate the DBGA chapter contact?

And Brian Wiese, an old friend of mine, wrote the Dagorhir Handbook in 1977 and still retains his copyright to that work.
I figured it was something like that, but once again, does he have the power to veto changes in Aratari rules, or DBGA entirely?

And yeah, shooting at that target here is preaching to the choir. And its feeding the "Belegarth is out to get us still" crud I hear from the other side. Move on, swing swords, kill your friends and maybe, just maybe we can put all of the crud behind us. :knight:
I'm not sniping or trolling, I'm just trying to make a little more sense out of the situation. It's **** hard to find any relevant information or bookkeeping regarding the actual organizational structure of DBGA.

Blahblahblah.
-Giggles

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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws are a Joke

Postby SnoJoo » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:51 pm

I gotcha Skorr. Yeah I only know a little about the split and after reading that I totally understand why you guys left.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws are a Joke

Postby Kyrax » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:41 am

Giggles wrote: I guess I don't see why there's not a more obvious distinction between DBGA Inc. and Aratari, a chapter of DBGA Inc. Why is it that Aratari has ownership of the national website and hotline for example? This is really confusing to me. The Aratari WC can create "organization rules" that... do what? Are those rules only applicable at Aratari events then (house rules)? Doesn't that violate the DBGA chapter contact?


You still don't quite get it - that document is about how that local group runs itself. DBGA is the Aratari, with the legalistic stuff because it is a non-profit org. So the Aratari WC makes rules about running Aratari events, elects the BOD, stuff like that. It's pretty boring mundane stuff.

There's no "national" hotline, it's a local thing, like I said before. And DBGA owns the domain names because I bought them for it and assigned the rights over to them more than 10 years ago. That bit in the bylaws is basically a decision to not transfer/sell those to another entity (a decision that could just as easily be revoked). Again, boring business stuff.

And no, chapters are free to make "house rules", many do. Like the ones that allow 13 year-olds to fight, or have extra proficiency requirements.

Giggles wrote:
And Brian Wiese, an old friend of mine, wrote the Dagorhir Handbook in 1977 and still retains his copyright to that work.
I figured it was something like that, but once again, does he have the power to veto changes in Aratari rules, or DBGA entirely?


No, Brian doesn't get involved like that. About the only thing he could do is withdraw his permission to use that copyrighted document. Why do you ask?

Giggles wrote:I'm not sniping or trolling, I'm just trying to make a little more sense out of the situation. It's **** hard to find any relevant information or bookkeeping regarding the actual organizational structure of DBGA.


So you want to know the nuts and bolts of rules of procedure and the like for the Washington, DC regional branch (chapter) of Dagorhir? Why do you care?

I'm not trying to troll in return, but your initial post seemed like an "Ah Hah! Got them." thing, when you've basically pulled up something pretty boring. In fact, it is so boring, that it is PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE and posted on the internet. More such trivia can be found via the IRS and State of Maryland records on DBGA.

As for the history of the split etc. - tons of threads here about it, some of which is actually true. By picking at the scab, posting ill-informed and uninformed opinions on things like this, you feed the impression that Belegarth is continuing to be the Anti-Dagorhir as well as seeking to undermine Dagorhir. That's not my personal opinion, that is how it is perceived.

And if you don't believe that, how many threads here talk about the founder of Amtgard, Peter Le Grue? Or dissections of the Amtgard or Darkon organizing documents and their franchise or whatever they call it aggreements? Emarthengarth - how 'bout that group? EMP? The SCA and its BOD? Bueller... Bueller... Anyone..
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws are a Joke

Postby The Great Gigsby » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:29 am

First off, thanks for answering my questions. And I do apologize for my tone in the initial post.

Anyway...

I'm still pretty confused. DBGA is the nonprofit organization operating out of Maryland. But, from what I gather, DBGA isn't Dagorhir. Does DBGA actually have any influence over Dagorhir?

DBGA is the Aratari
wat?

What is DBGA?
What is Dagorhir?
What is Aratari?

I'm not really interested in regional going ons. I'm just curious about the actual organization of Dagorhir in general. Why? I value the time and energy I devote to my hobbies and interests and I'd like to be more knowledgeable of any red tape I could encounter with Dagorhir and I figure other people probably feel the same way.

I'm already pretty familiar with a lot of the going ons with Amtgard, slightly less so with SCA, and even less with Darkon. Dagorhir comes up because it's in my back yard. It's one of the most successful foam-fighting organizations out there and I want to know more about it because it affects me.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws are a Joke

Postby Rasheab » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:11 am

"As with the basic premise of the Dagorhir Game Rules System, common sense supersedes perceived loopholes in these Bylaws."

Is that really in their bylaws? Are they a legally recognized organization? Because that is the sketchiest legalese I've (almost) ever heard. I'm reasonably sure you can't write in "common sense overrules" in your bylaws and have it hold up in a court.

I second Giggles' questions, for clarification on this subject:

"What is DBGA?
What is Dagorhir?
What is Aratari?"

If what Giggles quoted is not the Dagorhir corporate bylaws, where does one find them?
(Incidently, when I googled 'Dagorhir corporate bylaws' I got the form which Giggles cited in his original post.)
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws are a Joke

Postby Kyrax » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:48 am

Guys, nice try, but what Dagorhir is and how it operates has been discussed pretty extensively, both on their boards and here.

And no, it really doesn't affect either of you as you're both kind of far from most Dagorhir chapters. So it isn't in your backyard, nor does it impact you directly. No more so than Amtgard or the SCA do. If you want to play in those groups, then it might, but if you don't it doesn't affect you at all.

Maybe the problem for both of you is that you're part of a top-down heirarchical structure and expect that to apply to all similar groups. Dagorhir on the other hand as a nationwide/international foam fighting group operates more of a confederation of independent entities. There is no international corporate structure, bylaws, etc. DBGA is a non-profit group that operates one of those local entities, the Aratari, and licenses the rights to use the name of Dagorhir and its resources like the web board, Handbook, MoA, etc. to other local/regional groups. Each local groups operates itself, some as college clubs, others as independent legal entities (typically non-profits), others as informal groups of friends.

Giggles wrote:
Kyrax wrote:DBGA is the Aratari

wat?

What is DBGA?
What is Dagorhir?
What is Aratari?


Sorry guys, your questions have been answered many a time on these boards, and I did so again here. Now you're just trolling. And feeding the negative impressions based on past actions and statements here that Belegarth and its membership are anti-Dagorhir.

Giggles - if you aren't trolling as you claim, then you'd edit the insulting thread title to something more appropriate. To edit it, go to the original post, click the edit button and change it to something like "Dagorhir bylaws questions?"

Otherwise, too bad. Keep picking at the scab. Keep being part of the problem. I hope that works for you. For the rest of us who want to have fun with friends, we'll be swinging foam, telling stories and hanging out by the fire. I know that applies to most people in Belegarth and Dagorhir, heck, even Amtgard and so on. We want to have fun, not create tension and hassle.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby The Great Gigsby » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:53 am

Once again, thanks for the reply. I don't think there's any reason to be hostile here but I'm still trying to sort things out.

I'll be the first to own up to my stupidity and shortsightedness. But, I like to understand what I am a part of and in this case, that includes Dagorhir and foam-fighting at large. When I buy groceries, I examine my options; where I can go to shop, how it will affect my local economy, what juice is going to be healthiest. It's the same story when I apply for a loan, or vote, or join an ultimate frisbee club. I try to be as informed as possible when it comes to how I spend my time and effort.

And y'know what? I don't like being told that I don't need to know how an organization operates. I like to look at charters and rulebooks and bylaws and mission statements and boring crap like that because, like it or not, they dictate how things are managed and can directly affect me.

DBGA is a non-profit group that operates one of those local entities, the Aratari, and licenses the rights to use the name of Dagorhir and its resources like the web board, Handbook, MoA, etc. to other local/regional groups. Each local groups operates itself, some as college clubs, others as independent legal entities (typically non-profits), others as informal groups of friends.
That's a little more clear. I'll probably take a few days to see if I can understand the situation a little better. So... DBGA owns the rights to the Dagorhir name and resources and contracts out the right to use the name and resources and so forth. Who runs DBGA? Do they have a BoD? Bylaws? Website?

Finally, the black and white "you're either with us or against us" attitude is the reason that people like you and me get frustrated. It's not that simple and I'm sure you know that. Honestly, I feel a little sorry for Dagorhir. Their website's a mess, their chapter contracts are a little backwards, and their governing documents are MIA.

The only "problem" is that I'm apparently the only one here who's dumb enough to not understand how DBGA operates as an NPO. Maybe I should just say **** it, like everyone else and not ask for any sort of accountability. I got it with Amtgard Inc., and I got it with BMCS. I just don't got it with DBGA. Two out of three ain't bad, I guess.

Maybe I should just call the hotline. 8)
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Zwei ap Owen » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:49 am

I think the question (or at least one of them) Giggles is ultimately trying to get at is this:

What courses of action could the BoD take against a Dagorhir Realm that, for whatever reason, valid or otherwise, finds themselves at odds with the BoD?

This is, of course, hypothetically speaking. I feel that the way Dagorhir realms are set up really minimalizes the potential for this sort of conflict, but let's just throw it out there for the sake of argument.

Another relevant question might be who determines the nature of the rules of inter-realm events like Ragnarok.

I have the sense of how these questions should be answered, but I'm going to defer to Kyrax's superior wisdom (read: advanced age).
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Kyrax » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:59 am

Giggles wrote:Once again, thanks for the reply. I don't think there's any reason to be hostile here but I'm still trying to sort things out.


Not hostility, frustration. Thanks for editing the thread header. At least you're trying.

Giggles wrote:
DBGA is a non-profit group that operates one of those local entities, the Aratari, and licenses the rights to use the name of Dagorhir and its resources like the web board, Handbook, MoA, etc. to other local/regional groups. Each local groups operates itself, some as college clubs, others as independent legal entities (typically non-profits), others as informal groups of friends.
That's a little more clear. I'll probably take a few days to see if I can understand the situation a little better. So... DBGA owns the rights to the Dagorhir name and resources and contracts out the right to use the name and resources and so forth. Who runs DBGA? Do they have a BoD? Bylaws? Website?


Huh? You posted the pdf of the DBGA bylaws, that and my previous posts answer all of your questions except the last one about a website. The Aratari (i.e. DBGA) website is http://www.dagorhir.org (not .com which is the national website). It can be found as a link off of the Locations page on the main website.

Giggles wrote:Finally, the black and white "you're either with us or against us" attitude is the reason that people like you and me get frustrated. It's not that simple and I'm sure you know that. Honestly, I feel a little sorry for Dagorhir. Their website's a mess, their chapter contracts are a little backwards, and their governing documents are MIA.


The with us or against us attitude resides on both sides of the fence. The website is in the process of being updated, so I'd disagree on that part, and you're entitled to your opinion about the contract their lawyers drew up and many folks have worked under successfully for years. As for the governing documents, see my above posts - you're looking for something that isn't there. Or are just ignoring what you've found and my clarifications.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Arrakis » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:42 pm

Kyrax, RELAX. You can't just go assuming that Bel folks are trying to look for something to go "AH-HA!" at or you're just feeding the attitude yourself.

I don't know how Dagorhir, as an organization, is run. I do know how Bel is run. I'm now IN A DAGORHIR CHAPTER. I wish I knew how Dag was run. But I don't. Can you explain it any better than "DGBA is Aratari and they allow Dagorhir 'Chapters' to use the name 'Dagorhir' if they sign a contract and the Chapters have no say in the governance of the organization as a whole and only have input into the rules of the game at the RWC"? Or is that highly abnormal situation the actual fact of the matter?
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby The Great Gigsby » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:59 pm

I got the impression that decisions made by the Ragnarok War Council only influence Ragnarok as strongly indicated here:

www.romanempire.net/romepage/belegarth/RWCBylaws.doc

It's seven years old, but it's all I could find.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Kyrax » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:45 am

Arrakis wrote: Kyrax, RELAX. You can't just go assuming that Bel folks are trying to look for something to go "AH-HA!" at or you're just feeding the attitude yourself.

I am relaxed, thanks for asking. Giggle’s original post and thread title (not the current title) made it clear that this thread is an “AH-HA”, and given the extensive history of Dagorhir bashing here and this thread’s proximity to the start of Ragnarok, one can put two and two together and not get five.

Arrakis wrote: I don't know how Dagorhir, as an organization, is run. I do know how Bel is run. I'm now IN A DAGORHIR CHAPTER. I wish I knew how Dag was run. But I don't. Can you explain it any better than "DGBA is Aratari and they allow Dagorhir 'Chapters' to use the name 'Dagorhir' if they sign a contract and the Chapters have no say in the governance of the organization as a whole and only have input into the rules of the game at the RWC"? Or is that highly abnormal situation the actual fact of the matter?


I have no idea what you’re quoting. I never said that sentence and if you meant to paraphrase me and add some assumptions of your own, then please make that clear.

The latter part of your run-on sentence is where you go astray: “…the Chapters have no say in the governance of the organization as a whole and only have input into the rules of the game at the RWC"?

Did you read my previous posts? There is no “national organization” – Dagorhir operates as a confederation of independent groups, not as a unitary organization like Amtgard or Belegarth. In part, the Dagorhir-Belegarth split happened due to an effort to impose such a national organization against the strong wishes of a significant part of what was then Dagorhir. I mention this only to point out the difference in organizational philosophy, not to reopen that discussion. It’s been done to death here, and then done to death again – search for threads on the topic for more information (and take them with a few kilos of salt).

The RWC is the closest thing to a gathering that represents Dagorhir chapters, as all of them who attend that event can participate fully on the RWC. Sure the focus of the RWC is to run Ragnarok and make policies for future editions of that event. But it also discusses rules used there, and so far all Dagorhir inter-chapter events basically use those same rules, and most chapters adopt them with minor local tweaks. So in effect they’re setting rules for Dagorhir chapters as a whole.

I don’t claim that this is a perfect system, I’m just trying to help explain what is. Some day Dagorhir will need to work out a new way to operate and may move to a more formal international structure. But for now this system seems to work and Dagorhir continues to grow.

If you’re going to be at Ragnarok, feel free to look me up and I’ll try to answer any other questions or point you to people who can help you. I camp with the Guard, but may also be found helping at the Garb Gates or maybe Heralding some. Look for the bald guy on the funny wheeled thing (I’m recovering from ankle surgery). And that’s about all I’ve got to say on the subject as I have to focus on getting ready for Ragnarok and getting a job offer or two. No saying which has a higher priority, but I am trying to get them both done this week.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Mercer » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:43 am

Naturally, employment comes second. If not... then you're not really Kyrax!!! What have you done with Kyrax, you dirty pod-person alien thing!!!
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby The Great Gigsby » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:05 am

Kyrax wrote:...this thread is an “AH-HA”, and given the extensive history of Dagorhir bashing here and this thread’s proximity to the start of Ragnarok, one can put two and two together and not get five.
:roll: Really?

If I had waited three weeks or whatever to post this, someone would be accusing me of trying to undermine the awesome time everyone had at Ragnarok or something equally esoteric. If I had posted this three months ago, someone would say that I'm jealous of the success that Wreckreation Nation has brought to Dagorhir. If I had posted it in the winter, someone would say that I'm just trolling because it's December and I'm drunk on whiskey and have nobody to fight with.

If I post it on the Dagorhir boards, I get banned again. If I send an email to the webteam, or Dominus, I get ignored. I have never found a time or place to talk about Dagorhir in a constructive light and it's because it always turns into some retarded witch hunt.

Thanks for answering my questions, but christ, give me a little credit. If you want, I can open up a "Questions for Giggles" thread in GM and you can judge me that way.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Solusar » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:32 am

I have an idea, Giggles, you should go to Rag and ask as many questions as you can. You'll get it all sorted out there.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Arrakis » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:45 am

Kyrax, you have answered my questions. Thanks. I found it difficult to believe that Dagorhir would be organized in such a manner, because I'm not used to that; I am, as you mention, used to the more formal organization of Belegarth and the SCA (East Kingdom, what?!).

Good to know.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws are a Joke

Postby Kegg » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:34 am

Rasheab wrote:"As with the basic premise of the Dagorhir Game Rules System, common sense supersedes perceived loopholes in these Bylaws."

Is that really in their bylaws? Are they a legally recognized organization? Because that is the sketchiest legalese I've (almost) ever heard. I'm reasonably sure you can't write in "common sense overrules" in your bylaws and have it hold up in a court.

I second Giggles' questions, for clarification on this subject:

"What is DBGA?
What is Dagorhir?
What is Aratari?"

If what Giggles quoted is not the Dagorhir corporate bylaws, where does one find them?
(Incidently, when I googled 'Dagorhir corporate bylaws' I got the form which Giggles cited in his original post.)


The DBGA is the corporate non-profit entity that owns and runs everything Dagorhir. The DBGA BoD is selected from unit leaders that sit on the Aratari War Council.

Dagorhir is the trademarked name and copyrighted rule set that describe a flavor of foam fighting medievalism (like Amtgard or Belegarth).

Aratari is the name of the "pretty name" of the DBGA. It is the group from which the DBGA BoD is selected.

The Aratari through the DBGA have 100% control and ownership of everything Dagorhir. They license the name and rules to other independent organization (realms/chapters). Brian Weise maintains a veto in case the off chance that a majority of the Aratari decide to do something crazy (like make up with Belegarth) that some other founding members of the DBGA disagree with. They would use their friendship with Brian to veto that move.

As to what they do to realms that run afoul of the DBGA, they sic lawyers on them.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Athron » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:57 am

Hi, I've helped create and run a Dagorhir chapter for 6 years, and now help run (to various capacities) 2 different chapters for the most recent 2 years.

DBGA has never told us what to do, how to do it, nor intervened or attempted to control us. We have always done exactly what we want, how we want to do it, for whatever reason we want to do it. I can objectively say that has been my experience with running Dagorhir chapters.

I'm sorry if my actual experience does not match the hypothetical experience some people think Dagorhir chapters ought to be experiencing.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Arrakis » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:59 am

The plural of anecdote...

EDIT:

Thanks for the verification that what I thought was the case, is, Kegg.

Kyrax, that's what confuses (non pre-split) Belegrim (like myself). We're used to an organization that is all-encompassing and in which control of the name and rights to the Rulebooks and such are left to that entire organization which includes all Realms. We aren't used to the idea of a single Realm owning the rights to the name of the game, among other things, and licensing it.

The concern, as with everything "licensed", from music to movies to the rights to a name, is that, some day, for some reason, the Aratari can simply decide that no on but the Aratari can call themselves Dagorhir any more. And, it sure seems like that is a very real possibility, however unlikely. That sort of ultimate centralized power, as opposed to the arguably less-abusable (I am not arguing less abused) broad-based, arguably more representative power of the Belegarth BoD is what causes those of us unfamiliar with the manor in which Dagorhir is operated and, especially, those of us who have had poor experiences with Dagohir in one way or another (i.e. my completely unwarranted banning from the web forums despite my record of helpful, intelligent posting) to be suspicious of any person or group who would seek to maintain that type of organizational structure.

It just seems like the only reason for Dag to still be organized like that is as a sort of nuclear option, so that if something goes against the general feeling in Aratari, a chapter's license to use the name Dagorhir can be pulled and that group effectively excommunicated.

Or, you know. Just not ever having gotten around to restructuring the organization after it outgrew the Beltway.

Just trying to explain how it looks from out here.


DISCLAIMER: I do participate, actively, in a Dagorhir chapter on a regular basis and am not currently actively involved in participating in or administering any Belegarth group of size >1 person.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Derian » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:09 am

Athron wrote:DBGA has never told us what to do, how to do it, nor intervened or attempted to control us. We have always done exactly what we want, how we want to do it, for whatever reason we want to do it. I can objectively say that has been my experience with running Dagorhir chapters.

I'm sorry if my actual experience does not match the hypothetical experience some people think Dagorhir chapters ought to be experiencing.


I don't think it's necessarily that this does or will happen again in the future, only that the potential exists right now. That's the reason a lot of people are concerned.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Athron » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:47 am

Arrakis wrote:The plural of anecdote...


Arrakis, my sincere apologies for not drawing from a sufficient n to make a valid inference.

Since we want to know the % of chapters that are controlled/told what to do by DBGA (and I suggested it was zero, or near zero), let's estimate the random sample size we'd need to make a valid inference within the 'typical' +/- 5% range of confidence. Since we're dealing with a small population (about 100 active Dagorhir chapters), I adjusted the sample-size formula for a dichotomous outcome variable with a finite multiplier. Assuming the highest level of variance in the population (50% are yes, 50% are no), a 99% confidence interval (z = 2.58) and +/- 5% acceptable sampling error, my calculations suggest that we'll need to ask 87 of the 100 active chapters to make such a valid inference with the afore-mentioned level of accuracy. Of course, the sample would be much smaller if we made a slightly more liberal estimate of the variance in the population (I'd guess its somewhere less than 50/50), so our sampling strategy so far is probably a little bit of overkill. Let me know if you'd like to help with the data collection, I can't wait to dive into this project!
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Aleksii » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:51 pm

Athron wrote:Turd-Burgler
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Kyrax » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:39 pm

Thanks the dose of reality Athron – that’s the same experience I’ve had in four non-Aratari chapters. But I’m also one of the folks who helped set up the current version of DBGA vis-à-vis the Aratari, am a former President and officer of the Aratari, so I admit that I might be a tad biased.

As for Kegg’s comments, if you look a bit more closely, you’ll see that they differ only in tone from what I had already said – that the name etc. are licensed. The difference is that the name, even the rules aren’t “everything Dagorhir”, just as the name and rulebook of Belegarth aren’t all that it is. And lawyers? They cost money, lots of it, so they’ve only been involved in specific cases of violations of the Service Mark or Copyrights, or cyber-squatting, and then it’s just involved sending a letter that lead to the issue being resolved. Sadly, in American intellectual property rights laws you have to take action on such violations or you weaken if not lose those rights. Don’t blame them for this, it is the way things work. If someone were to violate the open source agreement in Belegarth’s rules, they’d have to do the same thing or that agreement becomes meaningless.

Sure Brian Wiese could decide to withdraw his authorization of the use of the Handbook, just as the Aratari or DBGA could withdraw their authorization to use the name (under the Service Mark) or rule book of Dagorhir. But that won’t stop anyone from having fun with their friends and swinging foam – Belegarth and Amtgard are both examples of that. And for that matter, the Belegrim BOD or Amtgard Kingdoms(?) or BOD could probably decide the same sort of thing if some local group caused issues for the group or instituted safety problems. But uses of the “nuclear option” are unlikely, to the point of being unrealistic, barring specific cause.

Thanks though Arrakis for your opinion on how another group ought to organize itself. The problem of course is that Dagorhir has been growing successfully for years based on basically that model, even in the less formal pre-split days. So it has worked outside the Beltway for over 20 years. And it has its own ways of being representative. To the folks on the other side of the fence, why mess with success? They also honestly wonder why so many outsiders seem to care about this sort of thing, and are troubled by how often the issue gets raised ad-infinitum here. Argue all you want about how something different would be better or whatever, but you can’t argue that it isn’t working.

And Giggles – just looking at your posts this year in the “Other Medieval Recreation Sports” forum show a clear anti-Dagorhir theme. I hate to be an asshat, but in this case I’m just calling it as I see it based on what you’ve said. Your millage may vary.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby The Great Gigsby » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:29 pm

Kegg, that was very succinct and easy to understand. Kind of hard to swallow though. I'm sure there's a little more to it than that.

Athron, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that DBGA has a near perfect track record when it comes to not interfering with their chapters. That doesn't make their system of governance any good.

Kyrax, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. What would you prefer I say? Ragnarok is huge. We know that Dagorhir was on TV. It's clear that everyone on the Dag messageboard is having a great time. For the third time now you've painted this image that I'm anti-Dagorhir. It's not that simple and I don't understand why you're having such a hard time with that.

The fact that their membership has no way of directly influencing the direction of their own organization is ludicrous. It's no wonder 85% of Dagorhirrim "don't really care." Dagorhir should respect it's members more than that. SCA and Amtgard are far more successful, probably because they put a lot more effort in supporting their chapters globally (through Kingdoms). I would argue that in terms of geographic coverage, Belegarth does decently better than Dag. The Pacific Northwest is a good example of this. Bel chapters are popping up on the Oregon coast and throughout Idaho and Utah at a pretty steady rate. You could speculate any number of reasons for this happening, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that there's a lot of effort being made to support each chapter and grow foamfighting in the region. War Council representation is also an incentive to grow your chapter membership and keep it going.

Maybe I'm wrong (any poli-sci majors?), but I believe that the more involved a community is, the stronger it becomes. Okay, that was a little more long winded than I intended it to be.

TLDR: Dagorhurr is the new Jonestown. Kegg was right. Fight the power. Bel has better fighters.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Arrakis » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:08 pm

Thanks for all the info and insults, Kyrax. It's really swell that Hooked on Dagorhir Wurkd 4 U; I was just trying to HONESTLY explain to you, in a NON-INFLAMMATORY, NON-INSULTING, NON-PARTISAN way why some people seem to have an issue with the way that Dagorhir is organized. Maybe you can stop hating on people just because they're from Belegarth for five seconds and understand that I was just trying to explain the concerns of people I didn't think you were understanding.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Athron » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:57 pm

Giggles wrote:Athron, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that DBGA has a near perfect track record when it comes to not interfering with their chapters. That doesn't make their system of governance any good.


You're totally right, Giggles. Across a wide swath of life, just because the observed outcome is good, doesn't necessarily make the underlying process any good. Good point.

I suggest, though, instead of having a dominant focus on 'Dagorhir as national org.,' consider all of your mentioned concerns about participatory government also at the local chapter level. See how local chapters engage their local players to make local decisions. Dagorhir explicitly focuses on the chapter as the most important organizational unit, not the national organization. I don't suggest I will alleviate your concerns/criticisms of the national level by suggesting this perspective of considering the local level. But I do mean to suggest that to the extent Dagorhir succeeds or falters, it has much more to do with all of those very important points you made (stronger community via participation, etc.) at the local level.

Although I will wander once again into the dangerous waters of speaking from personal experience, fostering passionate committment and engagement with members to help grow their local chapter and nearby regions is a pretty good way for a few reasons, it (1) has a stronger effect on beneficial outcomes related to Dagorhir (re: a given level of participation at the local level reaps greater rewards than a unit of participation at the national level) & (2) is easier to develop (its easier to make someone one unit more engaged with their local chapter than it is to make a given person one unit more engaged with national Dagorhir).

What I'm essentially saying is, you're totally right, but the local chapter is where the magic really happens. Or at least from my perspective, that is where it happens. Ultimately, as long as DBGA wants to stay out of my local chapter's business, I'm a happy camper because that means our chapter gets to grow and be exactly what it wants to be, accomodating and adaptive to the local needs. And perhaps that explains why 85% (apparently this is the new figure ;) ) of Dagorhir members don't care about what happens at the national level... they're busy spending a great deal of time and effort caring about what happens at their local level, reaping the direct rewards from that concern and effort.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby The Great Gigsby » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:17 pm

If fostering growth locally is so paramount, why join Dagorhir in the first place? Why tie yourself to a contract? Lots of backyard boffer groups surface without any awareness of the growth of major foamfighting organizations and I'm sure they're having a good time. I think you're missing the big picture when you marginalize the importance of a national structure. That is the direction we should all be heading in.

a given level of participation at the local level reaps greater rewards than a unit of participation at the national level
That's only because it's so difficult to actually do anything in DBGA. I'm sure you're pretty well versed in the bylaws so I don't need to tell you that unless you're one of the few unit leaders regularly showing up to Maryland area events, you can't vote on rules and bylaw amendments (which nobody's going to pay attention to anyway). You can't criticize Dagorhir on their messageboard. There's not exactly a lot to do anyway.

Amtgard on the other hand has a tiered system of gaining recognition for your chapter, unit, and self. They have A&S events, a Wiki, an online record keeper, two intergame events (SKBC and Lord of War) etc. It's not perfect, but you can't argue with the results they get.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Kyrax » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:56 pm

Giggles wrote: Kyrax, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. What would you prefer I say?


As do I. In my first several postings, I was concerned at what you said here, from the initial inflammatory thread title and post through every follow up. But before that last post I did a search of your posts in this forum, and other than two comments on some cane-fighting thing if I recall correctly, all you’ve posted have been anti-Dagorhir comments. So you can claim disinterested curiousity, but to me your record shows otherwise. I’d love it if you prove me wrong going forward.

So Giggles, if the focus of Dagorhir is on the local chapter, which is where most people spend most of their time in this sort of game, why do you argue that chapter autonomy is meaningless? If the chapter’s governance is controlled by the local membership, wouldn’t that mean that the members do have direct influence on how their game is played?

Giggles wrote: That's only because it's so difficult to actually do anything in DBGA. I'm sure you're pretty well versed in the bylaws so I don't need to tell you that unless you're one of the few unit leaders regularly showing up to Maryland area events, you can't vote on rules and bylaw amendments (which nobody's going to pay attention to anyway).


Even the latest post makes it clear that nothing that doesn’t fit into your preconceptions is getting through. Other than the international licensing bit, DBGA is a local group. So why would anyone outside of that region (MD, DC, VA, and parts of WV and PA) really care what their bylaws are and what their local rules are? You’re again missing that rules accepted nationally are voted on at Ragnarok, not around Washington, DC. It’s been over a decade since the Aratari decided to use the Ragnarok rules locally.

And yeah, my useless degree was in political science. The problem I’ve been trying to communicate is that you’re all assuming that Dagorhir ought be run as a heirarchical democracy, while I’ve been explaining Dagorhir’s autonomous collective or, small “r”, republican system. Think America of the Articles of Confederation, rather than of the Constitution. Also in Dagohir all chapters can vote on the RWC, which has more de facto influence on the group as a whole. The same can’t be said for new Belegarth chapters. So an argument can be made that either is more representative than the other.

Arrakis – how is it insulting to say: “Thanks though Arrakis for your opinion on how another group ought to organize itself”? Seriously, how is that insulting or inflammatory? The rest of that paragraph was just information, including the honest confusion on the part of Dagorhir’s leadership about why outsiders like yourself care so much (based on the assumption that you’re Amtgard originally, right?). I mentioned my past to make clear that I have my biases, more than just self-identifying as a Dagorhirrim.

I understand the questions you guys have been asking, and have tried to answer them. But your premise seems to be that Dagorhir should be organized differently and when the answers differ from that premise you demand to know why. I’ve even tried to explain the point of view of Dagorhir’s leadeship, but that’s failed to get through. In your push to get answers that fit your preconceptions your missing the information being provided, whether by Athron or myself. We’re not asking you to agree with how Dagorhir works or why it does things a certain way - You’re welcome to your opinions. I’m also not claiming to love the system or agree with any or all of its leadership’s actions, even though most are old, old friends. As a thinking person, you have the right to disagree with your friends, if not the obligation to tell them so. But sometimes you gotta just shake your head and let it go. And I don’t mean just that if you don’t like it, don’t play. I mean move on.

You don’t know me Arrakis, or you’d realize how foolish that comment is about how it all works for me or that I’m hating on people for being from Belegarth. It doesn’t and I don’t. I fought hard against the split, trying to smack sense into leaders on both sides of the split. I pushed hard and worked on friends on both sides to find compromises, to the point of angering everyone from Dominus and Graymael to Kegg and other Belegarth leaders. I failed, and regret that fact to this day. I’d rather both groups could work together or even reunite, but I know that’s a pipe dream for the forseeable future. Like I said, sometimes you gotta shake your head and let it go.

So I go to events and have fun with friends, regardless of the nameplates. My only recent mistake is to occasionally come to this forum and try to correct misconceptions, like that Dagorhir is a dictatorship run by the evil Aratari who only want to destroy the fun of newbies all over the land. Kegg keeps trying to tell me that Belegarth has moved on and so on, but then I see that the high volume threads in this forum are pure Dagorhir bashing. Oh well…

On more positive notes:

Giggles, I’m glad to hear that things are going well for y’all up in the northwest. I’m not so far away, and might make the trek up the coast to check it out. We need more of whatever game out West, B, D and A. That’ll also mean that Chaos Wars will grow, and I will make it out there again if work and my health allow. Maybe this year, but more likely next.

Arrakis, If you play with Anvard, ask your chapter’s leadership about who helped that group start up. The answer might surprise you. Say hi to Raska and Namtar for me when you see them next, or for that matter Magnus or Janwin if they still come to visit. And if I see them first at Ragnarok I'll ask them to do the same.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Mercer » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:23 am

Arrakis, If you play with Anvard, ask your chapter’s leadership about who helped that group start up. The answer might surprise you.


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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby The Great Gigsby » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:57 am

:idea: Okay, I think I'm finally starting to get it. :idea:

All Dagorhir chapters agree to the terms in the Dagorhir Chapter Contract but are otherwise unbound to DBGA. I was getting mixed up by thinking that signing the contract made the new chapter a subsidiary of DBGA, thus making them subject to the DBGA bylaws.

You're right, it is more like a confederation than a republic. It's a little old-fashioned, but I can understand how it works. It certainly does shift the focus on building Dagorhir on the local level.

One more question: where can I find the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System? Is it the same thing as The Handbook and Dagorhir Manual of Arms found here? http://dagorhir.com/dagorhir/Rules.htm

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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Elebrim » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:22 am

Wait, I went over some of this and I think there's another issue here...

Kyrax wrote:The problem I’ve been trying to communicate is that you’re all assuming that Dagorhir ought be run as a heirarchical democracy, while I’ve been explaining Dagorhir’s autonomous collective or, small “r”, republican system. Think America of the Articles of Confederation, rather than of the Constitution. Also in Dagohir all chapters can vote on the RWC, which has more de facto influence on the group as a whole. The same can’t be said for new Belegarth chapters. So an argument can be made that either is more representative than the other.


Kyrax, on the inter-chapter level I see your point. Ultimately, each realm's local existence is its own, and it is responsible for its own local governance and self-maintenance. So in that regard, everything is ok. The issue, I think, is that of the copyright. In order to be considered Dagorhir, a realm must accept and uphold the Chapter Contract in order to use Dagorhir copyrighted material. Am I correct thus far?

If so, then this is the issue - the DBGA/Brian Weise, through copyright ownership of "Dagorhir," ultimately reserve sole control over which groups have permission to use "Dagorhir" (i.e. belong in Dagorhir) via the Chapter Contract.

If for whatever reason that Contract is voided or the DBGA/Weise revokes it from their end, a local Dagorhir chapter is immediately denied use of the name Dagorhir and any other copyrighted materials. Not only is that no more representation on RWC, but all of their own printed materials or advertising with "Dagorhir" on them must be destroyed, along with the removal of any online references to Dagorhir. Not only that, but the public knowledge that a former chapter was cut due to the revocation of their Contract could create a bad stigma and discourage their individual members from associating with Dagorhir at events.

The group might carry on by themselves, possibly joining another similar fighting or LARPing group after a time. But their entire Dagorhir identity, that whole phase of the group's existence, is effectively undone at the discretion of the DBGA/Weise. That sort of loss of identity can kill groups quite effectively.

Again, would this ever happen? Probably not, as I doubt the DBGA would benefit from dropping every group they didn't like. But the fact that it could happen, by virtue of the system itself, is an issue that should warrant some serious consideration.



Hopefully this is a point that we can effectively discuss.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Thrush Svartehjertet » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:01 am

Giggles, I think you may have got it... I cannot answer your question, sorry, dunno where the rules is at. I will say this, I don't know you, I have never talked to you, I don't have any reason to care about any factor in your life, but, I have observed you on this board and the brief stint when the Dag board re-upped, and I'll say this: I saw your banning coming from 90000000000000 miles away dude. You ask all the wrong questions in all the wrong ways in order to get a rise out of people, and here, you back up what the web nazi's over there re-act to. I don't mind rabble rousers, but THEY do, and you know that. Yer smart enough to know what will get to who, and how. I used to roll that way when I felt like they were super anti Darkon for no reason, I found it insulting. Then I proved them wrong and was just a decent ambassador to both games. Last year they nominated me to run security for their biggest national event this year, knowing full and well I play in another game 99% of my time. There is change coming, slowly.

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PS: I totally posted in this thread yesterday before leaving work... My post is not here, what I said was something like: even if, say, Athron's group Eryndor could no longer call themselves Dagorhir, I don't think those few hundred kids would stop hitting each other... Due to the very local focus of all Dag chapters, I feel they would take very a little hit in membership, and the only real noticeable difference would be how people go about finding a game local to them. Having talked to SO many people outside of the MD/DC/VA area in Dag, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of the country DOES NOT CARE what the hell goes on in Aratari land.... Like, not one bit. They are opponents at national events, that is all. There was a time long ago when Foam Fighting was anchored in that region of the country, those days are loooooooooooong gone. Illinois, Michigan and Ohio have SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many more groups than our little neck of the woods... We just have 2 of the oldest groups/games, that's it. Darkon doesn't want to spread, they farm out their rules and rulebook and help groups use it, but only under the understanding that they wont call themselves "Darkon". Then we have crossover events with those groups. Aratari are just another Dag chapter who some people think are still the leading group in a game that is SO much bigger than them... That's all. Just hit each other.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Arrakis » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:55 am

Maybe I'll meet you at an event one day, Kyrax, and we can share a few beers. I've always thought you seemed to have your head screwed on proper, just from having read your posts on here and the Dag boards. I just felt like my questions and information were being interpreted in the worst light and the "Thanks for your opinion" statement sounded pretty rude in my head. Admittedly, it's a pretty rude place in my head and we all know how great the internet is about allowing effective, unbiased communication...

Sorry for any misunderstandings. I just wanted to help.


PS: I'm Dur Demarion originally; I intend to make it up to some Goldenvale Amtgard practices soon, but so far only fight Bel/Dag and SCA (as far as major, non-local groups go).
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Thrush Svartehjertet » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:56 am

Arrakis, are you going to Rag?

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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Big King Jimmy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:54 am

Pfft, Arrakis doesn't go to events!
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Arrakis » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:56 am

Nay. Being jobless and trying to figure out grad school is keeping me tethered to one spot, generally speaking. Rag being like 20 hours away doesn't help anything...

And you shut your mouth Jimbo! I went to Equinox '07, Beltaine '08, two days worth of Rag XXIII (after eye surgery, like a dumbass), Mayhem '09, and War for the Roses '09. I just don't go to events often because I'm either a) in school or b) 1000+ miles away or both.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Thrush Svartehjertet » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:29 pm

Makes sense... We'll have to have a beer some day.

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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Kyrax » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:29 pm

Giggles wrote:One more question: where can I find the Dagorhir Gaming Rules System? Is it the same thing as The Handbook and Dagorhir Manual of Arms found here? http://dagorhir.com/dagorhir/Rules.htm

Did I finally nail it?


Yup giggles, you pretty much nailed it. But I think the url needs the www - http://www.dagorhir.com/dagorhir/Rules.htm

There's a rules update/revision here to fix some vagueness, minor issues, etc. It SHOULD be on the main site but that section hasn't been updated in the overall site update. I think that there are a few typos in what was approved, so they've left it in beta status. Again something I would like seeing fixed.

Arrakis - sorry for my mistake about your origins, some things got a bit fuzzy in the last two years. I've been to Dur D many a time and still have lots of friends there, though it's been a while since my last visit. Though Mercer I met while he lived in NYC (when came out to help Anvard in its early days).

Arrakis, I agree about the internet. My comment pointed at you wasn't meant negatively but the touch of sarcasm could easily be misunderstood. So my bad.

And finally, thanks for your two pence Thrush - quoted for truth:
Thrush wrote:Having talked to SO many people outside of the MD/DC/VA area in Dag, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of the country DOES NOT CARE what the hell goes on in Aratari land.... Like, not one bit. They are opponents at national events, that is all.


And that goes both ways - most Aratari, even their leadership, don't really care what happens elsewhere in Dagorhir or outside it. They're just opponents they get to hit at events.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Kyrax » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:37 pm

Elebrim wrote:Kyrax, on the inter-chapter level I see your point. Ultimately, each realm's local existence is its own, and it is responsible for its own local governance and self-maintenance. So in that regard, everything is ok. The issue, I think, is that of the copyright. In order to be considered Dagorhir, a realm must accept and uphold the Chapter Contract in order to use Dagorhir copyrighted material. Am I correct thus far?

If so, then this is the issue - the DBGA/Brian Weise, through copyright ownership of "Dagorhir," ultimately reserve sole control over which groups have permission to use "Dagorhir" (i.e. belong in Dagorhir) via the Chapter Contract.



Elebrim - you've described a possibility, but absent conflicts of interest like promoting a competing group like Belegarth the cancelling of contracts hasn't happened. And even in those few cases, like Thrush has pointed out somebody else would be willing to take them in. The only thing that would change is a name on a website or poster. That's hardly a huge problem.

The other problem with your theory is that Brian Weise holds the copyright to the "Dagorhir Handbook", not the Service Mark for the name. He would not get involved in an individual chapter's behavior. He's authorized the use of his work to DBGA and relies on their protection of it. Basically he's totally hands off and really has no negative feelings towards Belegarth, Amtgard, Emarthengarth, Darkon or any other group that has taken his original idea and run with it. Personally he is kind of flattered by the fact that so many people have fun with it in different ways. He'd really be tickled if folks acknowledged that initial inspiration, but doesn't expect anything. And doing so has no risks as there's no copyright on ideas like whacking your friends with foam weapons.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Outhro Youkker » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:32 pm

All I think is:
"Same ****, Different Game"
"I want to Fight"
"House rules are flexible to all who want to fight"
"Event rules are in stone and not going to try bypassing any"


I am the brand new admin to a brand new Dagorhir chapter because someone had to make one in North Carolina. and everyone else in the state, at the time, seems to be 16 and under...
I still fight Bele, and my first event was Oktoberfest of last year. I dont care how Aratari runs, because here we are democratic, by every fighters vote, minus mine. Because I would rather sit and listen to all opinions than go off to veto and shoot down ideas.

I do have the bad habit of sometimes running my mouth and being an idiot. But when it involves others and not just myself, I dont want BS to happen that will affect the whole group.

This is why I fight in a Dag chapter, to establish it as a functional chapter for whoever wants to fight.
A Bele chapter is easier to establish after, because I will still be going to Belegarth events. Plus with time there should be more fighters that will want to be cross fighters for the events too.

one last thing that will be planned for myself, even if I go alone, I am going to Ragnarok and Oktoberfest, that is all I plan for the year. every other event is if I have the time.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby The Great Gigsby » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:01 pm

Kyrax, Athron, everyone else, thanks for your patience in answering my questions. This has been incredibly enlightening. I'm really glad I understand how Dagorhir runs itself because it will probably be a key factor in determining my involvement in future Dagorhir activities.

I'm sorry if this thread is considered stirring the **** pot, but I felt it was important for me and for others to understand the facts and misconceptions surrounding Dagorhir at large.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Thrush Svartehjertet » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:06 am

Any chance you'll be at Rag?

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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Outhro Youkker » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:47 am

like playing tag next to a mine field
someone will wander in, and everyone else has to put the pieces together
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Elebrim » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:17 pm

Kyrax wrote:The other problem with your theory is that Brian Weise holds the copyright to the "Dagorhir Handbook", not the Service Mark for the name. He would not get involved in an individual chapter's behavior. He's authorized the use of his work to DBGA and relies on their protection of it. Basically he's totally hands off and really has no negative feelings towards Belegarth, Amtgard, Emarthengarth, Darkon or any other group that has taken his original idea and run with it. Personally he is kind of flattered by the fact that so many people have fun with it in different ways. He'd really be tickled if folks acknowledged that initial inspiration, but doesn't expect anything. And doing so has no risks as there's no copyright on ideas like whacking your friends with foam weapons.


Thanks for that explanation, Kyrax. I never assumed that Brian was sitting back in some fur-lined chair, stroking a Siamese cat and masterminding his control of the LARPing world, and there is a notable difference between copyright and service mark law.

The main point, though, is that the use of legal contracts and controls does still create certain possibilities. Even if those possibilities are never exploited, their existence alone can be a problem.
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Re: Dagorhir Bylaws Questions

Postby Kyrax » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:34 pm

Elebrim wrote:The main point, though, is that the use of legal contracts and controls does still create certain possibilities. Even if those possibilities are never exploited, their existence alone can be a problem.


Every group, from Amtgard, SCA, Dagorhir or Darkon, even Belegarth, that allows independent sub-entities use their name and rules has the potential to have the same issues. So much of the conversation here seems focused on Dagorhir's contract like it is unique, but it is just a more formal thing than this group chooses to use. I'm not personally familiar with starting an Amtgard shire or an SCA local group, but my guess is that their paperwork and the theoretical possibilities are at a minimum comparable to what Dagorhir has published.

Even Belegarth has a licensing agreement on its rulebook, the BoW. Sure it's in a different form than Dagorhir's, but it is a licensing agreement nonetheless. And if someone violated the terms of that agreement, then to protect that licensing agreement, B-garth would have to engage the legal system to protect it's copyrights regardless of their "open-source" nature. For example if I took the whole thing, stripped out that "Open-source" terminology and put my name on it and started selling it for personal profit. The Belegarth MCS and Gregg Larson (and maybe Matthew Anderson) would have to hire a lawyer to take action to protect the copyright. In other words EXACTLY WHAT DAGORHIR HAS DONE. Failure to do so makes the rights worthless. Calling something "open-source" or "copyleft" is just window dressing - these are copyrights (as the links make clear).
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