Rules Changes from RWC

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Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Isk » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:49 pm

For everybody who also fights at Dag events, these are the new RWC changes. Could we keep a sticky somewhere with a side-by-side of rules differences for us to make sure we are on the same page at dag events?
Tannhäuser. wrote:4.5.3.13.2 Arrows may not easily pass (<0.5”) through a 2.5” diameter hole. The softer padded face of the arrow must be at least 2.5” wide in all directions. The stiffer structural base foam must be at least 2” in diameter where it meets the open cell face foam.

. . .

4.5.2.9 Javelins may not easily pass (<0.5”) through a 3.5” diameter hole. The softer padded face of the javelin must be at least 3.5” wide in all directions. The stiffer structural base foam must be at least 3” in diameter where it meets the open cell face foam.

The base foam requirement is smart, safer and worthwhile, IMO, but the wider jav head sucks. I guess weapons checkers will need calipers now.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Arrakis » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Why the **** did they pass that retarded javelin thing?? Holy **** ignorant weapons requirements batman!

Also, since when does "pass easily THROUGH a hole" mean "go more than half an inch INTO a hole"??
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Sir Anastasia » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:51 pm

The jav rule sucks. Larger heads= heavier javs=more mass= more hurting on my nose.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby varadin » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:24 pm

the weight rule for javelins still apply though. So its 3.5 at 1.5 pounds instead of 2.5 and 1.5 pounds.

It allows for more distribution of the force. Do i agree with it, kinda i see the benefit but i do see the downside. All i know ill be weighing javelins more now because i don't want a 2 pounder coming at my face.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Kyrax » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:24 am

Arrakis wrote:Why the **** did they pass that retarded javelin thing?? Holy **** ignorant weapons requirements batman!

Also, since when does "pass easily THROUGH a hole" mean "go more than half an inch INTO a hole"??



They did it to * you off Arrakis. And do re-read, the wording isn't great, but they're basically saying that it can't pass easily OR go 1/2 inch through the hole.

As for the new javvy rules, a bigger head doesn't necessarily mean heavier. Varadin is correct that the same weight rules apply.

I'm not wild about the changes, but don't own any javelins right now so all this means is that I've got to add a few extra measurements to building them. And a scale so I can weigh them at local chapter practices.

Honestly, I'm please there are so few changes. Two small changes about missile weapon head dimensions in a year isn't that big a deal.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Arrakis » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:49 am

Kyrax: You, sir, are a funny man. Remind me to trounce you roundly, then buy you a beer.

I mean... it's not like I own or use javelins (ok, I own one, but it is such an atrocity I never use it), but, whatever.

It is nice to have only had two new wtfs pass this year.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:16 pm

Read Oznog's explanations on the Dag board, and you'll understand why we increased the minimum size for the closed-cell support foam.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Arrakis » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:34 pm

Magnus, just creating a minimum size for the base foam is a good idea; increasing that size beyond the old minimum open cell size is dumb. People have been making safe javelins at that head size for years; why force those people to make fat heads?
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Akeron » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:33 pm

Nah,

they only specified stuff that should be common sense already, just like with the arrows. If the max weight is the same there shouldn t be a problem.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Arrakis » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:32 pm

What? Building javelin heads 3.5" wide should be common sense? Are you on crack?
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Isk » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:50 pm

Akeron, did you read the post? They changed the minimum size for a javelin head from >2.5" to >3.5". That's a 40% increase in the size of the head and why? As far as common sense, I have seen arrows made with smaller bases for years, but I'm glad 'common sense' has been telling you what Oznog has determined about the relationship between the width of the closed cell base and the spread of the impact on the target.

Magnus, I have read Oznog's posts on the subject and loved them. I am building my arrows totally differently as a result. They will have a nice, broad, safe closed cell base. My javelins have always been made with a 2.75" base and I have personally taken them solidly in the eyes multiple times with very little discomfort.

Why did they change this rule? Were you at the council?
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby bishoplod » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:31 pm

The Aratari wanted to make the head of a javelin bigger. Their reasoning for that was that it would be easier for joe noob that has never seen modern foam weapons make a safer javelin easier. They wanted to simplify the rules. The rest of RWC (myself included) was more concerned with safety and wanted that to be the reason for changing the rule so the closed cell portion of the rule was added. I don't think this helps them be any safer. Aratari didn't get the simplicity they wanted...so nothing really seemed to be added except words.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Arrakis » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:26 pm

Dang. Trying to set the rules based on what the lowest common denominator of player is likely to be capable of is a great way to stagnate a game. Teaching to the low end of the class is hardly ever a plan that works out well for the rest of the students...
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Isk » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:30 am

bishoplod wrote:...so nothing really seemed to be added except words.

And a lot of well-made, efficient javelins have been outlawed.

Thanks for the response, Bishop. In reading Tannhäuser.'s minutes, I noticed the Aratari seemed to have a goal and didn't sound like they intended to compromise. I agree with Arrakis that the logic of making a weapon less efficient to allow it to be more 'easily made' seems like a training issue, not a regulatory issue. Do the Aratari involved use javelins much?
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:58 pm

In all honesty I was devoting almost the entirety of my energy to administrative stuff, like moving Ragnarok to a larger, better site, so I was sort of tuned out when the rules portion came up. Additionally, as someone who uses neither arrows nor javelins, I didn't have much invested in the discussion.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Solusar » Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:02 pm

Worst case scenario the rule can be repealed or changed. That is unless Graymael sues everyone.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Arrakis » Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:55 pm

Isk, Aratari has a huuuuge boner for javelins.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Akeron » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Arrakis,

Thats fine, taking in consideration most javies are made with pvc cores.
Also they specified the area...I would rather specifiy in terms of a the volume, so it would be a >3.5 cube requirement for the opencel top for all javs.and thats for consistency s sake.
These would indeed look a bit oversized but what the heck boffers won t ever look like the actual thing....and the punch wnt be bad at all. Down here we use a 4-4.5 cube of .8 density opencel foam, these last for ever, never had a problem.
And we use a 3" cubes for arrows...just like the package Edhellen sells and just like it is described on the numeroan arrow build.

Worried about range...well we can do over 50'-60' anytime with ours, but we do have a freak of nature(that happends to be a pro javalineer(did I spelled that right?))that throws twice or maybe thrice that distance.

Also thinner cored javs would look funny though.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Isk » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:58 pm

Akeron wrote:Arrakis,Also thinner cored javs would look funny though.

No. Thinner cored javs look and perform lots better. My favorite jav right now is a golf shaft javie that is stiff, flys awesome, weighs 6-7ozs. and hits very nice. At that size you can hold two javies, a sword and your punch shield in your off-hand. Graphite and fiberglass javies FTW!
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Arrakis » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:40 pm

Akeron, it may be super cool if you think that you need to legislate a maximum quality of weapons technology, but, in most actual Realms of actual Belegarth, there exist those who try to improve the technology everyone is using. What if, back in 1990, Aratari had decided that all weapons must contain at least 1# of couch foam and a minimum of half a roll of duct tape?

Feel free to keep on using your inferior, low-grade weapons tech, but when you finally hit the mainland for an event, don't be shocked when your gear is laughed right into the fail pile.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Mirelle » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:17 pm

Just saying they came to a mainland event, rag 22 and rag 23.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Arrakis » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:30 pm

THE POINT is: Legislating Construction Stagnates Progress.

Jesus **** Christ. Semantics...
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Isk » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:25 pm

Arrakis wrote:THE POINT is: Legislating Construction Stagnates Progress.

QFT. Safety tests should be comprehensive and as objective as possible, but based on physical tests of the equipment that address the most common and the most extreme ways it is likely to be used on the field. If it passes, it passes.

E.G. Marine foam isn't an open cell foam. If the rules stated all green weapons must be open cell foam, marine foam fails until we can push a rules change through, which significantly hinders experimentation and adoption of the new tech (a safer and more durable alternative).
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Akeron » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:24 pm

The point is that probably you havent made half the weapons I have made here...my incoherent lad....low level tech included, plus kitespar, cpvc, 3/8" poltruded fiberglass rods and golf rod cored javs.

Then again I m sure I mentioned that the problem may be the fact that most people over there on your hitech world(where most people doesn t have the money to buy from Edhellen for example,well they would rather purchase a sword than a jav)and my little backwater island(full of McD s and Walmarts)use pvc cores... good olde sch 40 1/2" ID.

As you can imagine Semantics have nothing to do Economics, moreso ergonomically speaking a few inches more on your jav striking surface wont matter...the arm that throws them do. I guess you don t do a lot of jav throwing...then again I don t know you personally and viceversa.

And just like Mirelle here so wonderfully explained , we had members attending Rag22 and 23(and in a way 24 hehehehehe ).....our weapons didn t failed, and we even got some nice compliments from head weapon checkers and staff....most importantly we learnt a lot of stuff. Soooo if you are going to keep harrassing me without doing your history homework and simply believing everything you are told..well thats your bad not mine buddy.

I visit over 20 boards and forums regulary....not only form the US, trying to find more and better ways to buid our stuff and my stuff. See, when you have over your shoulders the responsability of a full contact sport organization, well, you do want to make sure things run smoothly.In our case, we try to set a standard which happens to be affordable to most people over here.
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Arrakis wrote:THE POINT is: Legislating Construction Stagnates Progress.

Jesus **** Christ. Semantics...
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Tor » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:31 pm

Akeron wrote:I'm a total **** douchebag and ought to shut up while the adults are talking.


FTFY.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Big King Jimmy » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:27 pm

Tor, I am a big fan and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Can the viking bastards start a "Viking * Comedy Tour?"
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Tor » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:16 am

We'd love to oblige... Unfortunately, due to some unfortunate run-ins with our legal system, there can never be three of us at the same place at the same time.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Solusar » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:36 am

Tor wrote:
Akeron wrote:I'm a total **** douchebag and ought to shut up while the adults are talking.


FTFY.

For once, I agree.
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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby Dabbanoth » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:21 pm

Dear *.

Leave.


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Re: Rules Changes from RWC

Postby bo1 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:42 pm

i am not one to hastily tell people that they are dumb and should stfu, but i am getting really close.

dag passed a silly rule, good for them. can i still play belegarth with the adults. sweet.

back to your lives citizens.

seriously, lets let them play there silly game, we have our sport to play.
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