Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Rasheab » Sat May 01, 2010 12:14 am

No armor.
Shields cannot be broken.
No ranged weapons (javelins may be used as spears).
No grappling.
No shield checks/bashing
No shield kicks.
No min force.

Weapon regs I don't know; the group I visit is nice enough to let me use my equipment unmodded, because they know it's safe (and it's heavy like depleted uranium, compared to their weapons).
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There are no staffs in Belegarth. Because of how they are constructed, they are really Pugil Sticks.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Isk » Sat May 01, 2010 11:09 pm

And stabs are the same as hacks.

Thanks for the list, Rasheab, but I would like a website with an actual rules list for this so we can make the same kind of comprehensive chart we have for the bel/dag comparison. The point of the chart is to include EVERY difference.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Dedric » Mon May 17, 2010 8:04 am

I've copied and done some clarifications, as well as a column for how to play if you want to easily pass BOTH systems. Needed it for a local startup realm. See what you think:

http://geddon.org/index.php/Dagorhir_Be ... _by_Dedric
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Isk » Mon May 17, 2010 11:18 am

I like the addition of a column that recommends the best balance to pass both games. Thanks for putting that out there. We have been discussing in another thread how to show, with the dag rules, where the balance lies between what they actually say or appear to say and how the different chapters and events actually enforce them. I think this column provides a good spot for that information, allowing the two rules columns to remain the letter of the law. From what I am seeing you also changed several of the statements in the rules columns, some of which are now incorrect or reflect interpretation of the rule rather than the actual rule.

I'll go over it in detail, but I like where this is going.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Isk » Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Okay, had a second after all. I really like this idea and I think you did a good job with it. It looks like the only rule change issue was the first one I saw. Javelins can flex 90 in both systems (which is why they weren't mentioned in the previous iteration).

I am not sure whether the min blue section is needed. The same fuzziness in the rules as to the minimum striking area really seems to exist in both systems.

I like your revisions to the wording of a few rules comparisons.

I would prefer to change the name of the last column to 'middle ground' or 'best compromise' to indicate you are giving things up on both sides to play in a way that no one should cause no problems.

Also, I think we should incorporate this back into the original comparison to avoid confusion, but thanks for not clobbering the original.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Dedric » Mon May 17, 2010 2:27 pm

Isk, thanks for reading and critiquing the changes I made. I think the one thing I did that was a little different from what you're thinking is that I didn't write the third column to be the best compromise. I wrote it as advice to a new realm who will be heavily cross-gaming, as in, "if you do THIS, you can easily pass both systems," not necessarily what I would prefer to see as official realm policy.

Please feel free to integrate this stuff into the original version, and then we'll take my modified version down.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Mon May 17, 2010 3:26 pm

Calling garb:

If a weapon hits your garb in such a way that, were you naked, it would not have hit anything, then you call "garb" and it's not a hit.

If, on the other hand, a weapon hits your garb in such a way that, were you naked, it would have continued on and hit you instead, you should take it as a hit. I acknowledge that it is hard to enforce this, however, it is possible to wear garb that will slow or nullify even a direct attack (because some of these weapons only weigh 12 ounces anyway) but doing so is the ultimate cheese.

Well, no, Roquefort is the ultimate cheese. But this is a close second.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Isk » Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:30 am

Updated to reflect wording change at last RWC (from noticeable to sufficient). Better late than never.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Oisin » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:35 am

Isk, voting happens once a year in Dag, at RWC. They fixed it at the soonest possible opportunity, as was expected. That whole thing was a hurricane in an internet teacup.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Isk » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:00 am

Yep. It just took me several months to get around to digging up the minutes from RWC and checking what changes had been approved this year.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Azgarehta » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:55 am

Apparently metal gauntlets aren't so bad.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Oisin » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:07 am

Oh God, here we go again. :roll:

Az, you have yet to learn the full power of paranoia and ignorance when bandied about online by people who don't have a * clue what they're talking about. Especially when they're terrified of their pinkies getting a boo boo and having to wear a bandaid, which would soooo crimp their nerdcool.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:33 am

It's not paranoia thing Oisin, it a fact that I don't want to take a metal gauntlet to the face. I lost a tooth to a guys uncovered elbow, had he been wearing steel elbows I would have lost a few more if not broken my upper palett. Same goes for your hand gear. Last thing I want is to get hit in the face with your plate gauntlet.

Also, your gauntlets don't pass at Bel events, as they are aluminum, they are not armor. But they look like armor, which means they are not legal to wear on the field anyhow, even if they weren't banned as a whole.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby varadin » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:35 am

Oisin wrote:Oh God, here we go again. :roll:

Az, you have yet to learn the full power of paranoia and ignorance when bandied about online by people who don't have a * clue what they're talking about. Especially when they're terrified of their pinkies getting a boo boo and having to wear a bandaid, which would soooo crimp their nerdcool.


or the sure stubburness of people who don't get their way
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Oisin » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:29 pm

Varadin wrote:
Oisin wrote:Oh God, here we go again. :roll:

Az, you have yet to learn the full power of paranoia and ignorance when bandied about online by people who don't have a * clue what they're talking about. Especially when they're terrified of their pinkies getting a boo boo and having to wear a bandaid, which would soooo crimp their nerdcool.


or the sure stubburness of people who don't get their way


When they're the best line of protection that exists against a proven hazard (aka, unsafe weapons construction and systematic incompetence and/or cronyism by weapons checkers) that has caused severe injuries to myself and several other people . . . yes, I can be pretty stubborn about being allowed to wear my safety gear. Makes all you stick jocks who whine about your eyes being hurt so you can look cool in you shades look like complete hypocrite douchebags.

Soo Ma Tai wrote:It's not paranoia thing Oisin, it a fact that I don't want to take a metal gauntlet to the face. I lost a tooth to a guys uncovered elbow, had he been wearing steel elbows I would have lost a few more if not broken my upper palett. Same goes for your hand gear. Last thing I want is to get hit in the face with your plate gauntlet.


This is complete and utter *. It's LARP physics at their best. (Worst?) That would require the metal to have actually amplified the force of the blow . . . and while it would add a small factor of weight, it's a statistically insignificant amount compared to the fact that a smooth plate would have spread the force of the blow over a much wider and smoother area (as opposed to a pointy elbow that's just as hard and unyielding as the plate would be, possibly more so because that plate is likely to be worn over padding that would help cushion the impact).

Last thing I want is to get hit in the face by anything . . . but my gauntlets aren't going to make it hurt worse or cause more damage. In fact, while this whole debate was going on, Olos and a few of his guys from Black Company borrowed them so that they could see for themselves whether it would make it worse or not, and the verdict they came up with was that because of the smooth surface and internal padding they'd rather get hit with the gaunts than without.

Soo Ma Tai wrote:Also, your gauntlets don't pass at Bel events, as they are aluminum, they are not armor. But they look like armor, which means they are not legal to wear on the field anyhow, even if they weren't banned as a whole.


*. There's no rule that says that. People wear sub armour grade leather as garb regularly, and I've seen plenty of people wear Azon mail or similar just for looks as well. You're pulling a lame excuse out of your *. Besides . . . I thought safety trumps all . . . right, stickjocks who blatantly ignore the garb rules to wear sunglasses cuz your eyes can't stand the sun? :roll:
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby varadin » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:56 pm

I like how you try to diverge this to a sunglasses argument with how much you scream straw man most of the time.

In Soo's can you honestly say that having a Larger thing hitting his teeth would have helped? it doesn't take much to snap 1 out let alone multiple.

The problem is there are plenty of alternatives to hand safety. I have taken a rattan sword over a hockey glove with no problem, it can stand up to a foam word, even a poorly padded foam sword. And you know my opinion of your situation, i just would stop fighting. My hobbies are fun but I would never risk loosing a hand over it.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Winfang » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:19 pm

If your worried about your hands, there are a number of options available to you in the Belegarth rules. Lacrosse gloves, hockey gloves, MMA gloves, leather gauntlets, plastic gauntlets, etc are all options you have that can provide adequate to great protection that is equal to a steel gauntlet. Why do you insist on a steel gauntlet when other options exists? It's not a safety issue because other gears provides similar protection. It can't be a playability issue because armor is allow on the hands in the form of leather. Best I can tell, it's not a realism issue for you because you portray dark age warrior that predate this armor by at least 200 years. Since you don't satisfy the holy-trinity for rules so my only guess why you bring it up is you're being a troll.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:32 pm

I understand how you feel Oisin, I understand that you've tested them, etc. If I had been hit with a metal object, which for your info is much stronger than bone, it would have destroyed my face. Instead i got hit with the point of his elbow and left my tooth imbedded into his elbow bone. I don't think my tooth would have punctured the steel.

I gaurentee that if I hit you with my fist, say in the ribs. Then hit you with a steel gauntlet in the ribs, I would cause more damage with the gauntlets on than off.

"Makes all you stick jocks who whine about your eyes being hurt so you can look cool in you shades look like complete hypocrite douchebags."

You do realize that I was one of the people stating ~not~ to wear sunglasses on the field, so your stick jock arguement is fail. So while you are out calling names you might think about barking up the right tree there douchebag. Thoug I may be a stick jock in the sense of trying to be a better swordfighter, I have some of the best garb and armor around, am part of the garb police, and in general would like to see more characterization. So like you, I don't want to see sunglasses or anything else that looks modern on the field.

Also :

2.2.2. Armor is protective body covering, consisting of period materials.
3.3.5. The presence of Armor must be easily discernable to count as Armor.
3.7.2. Composite Armor must be identifiable as Armor by appearance.

So I was a little backward on the part about armor looking like armor. I guess it's fine if something looks like armor but isn't. My bad. I will still argue till the day I die that a steel/aluminum covered fist will cause more damage than a none covered fist.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Azgarehta » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:02 pm

Because of the flat front of the guantlets, they don't dig in as hard as Olos' knuckles do. I'd get punched with them all day long, and I tend to get punched a lot.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Peanut of Loderia » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:08 pm

Azgarehta wrote:Because of the flat front of the guantlets, they don't dig in as hard as Olos' knuckles do. I'd get punched with them all day long, and I tend to get punched a lot.


Ever wonder why that is?

Anyway this thread isn't the place metal hands good/bad argument. It would have been sufficient to say in Dag you can have rigid metal gauntlets and here you cannot.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Richard le Gris » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:09 pm

http://amtwiki.net/amtwiki/index.php/Militia
http://amtwiki.net/amtwiki/index.php/Ditch

That's what the Amtwiki has to say about militia and ditch. Take that and the 7.6 rulebook from http://www.amtgardinc.com/documents.html (just the combat section, naturally) and you should be able to do a proper comparison with Dag and Bel for ease of cross-gaming. I hope this is what you were looking for. If not, I apologize.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Isk » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:27 pm

Thanks Peanut.

Richard, I'll see if I can find some time to do that in the next few days.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Oisin » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:59 pm

Guy's right. This isn't the place. So, briefly and then I'm done and not going to post any more about this in this thread.

Soo--You're wrong. We've punched people in them before. Hard. It doesn't turn your hand into a magical battering ram of doom that crushes ribcages and knocks teeth left and right. It's just not as big of a deal as you make it out to be . . . the fact that its' stronger doesn't matter, blunt trauma is caused by increased kinetic energy (= .5mass x velocity squared, adding a half pound gauntlet compared to the weight of your arm is nearly nothing) per unit area (thus, if the impact is across a wider plane, the energy is more dissipated and causes less trauma) minus any force compensated for by padding (the point of contact on an elbow or fist already doesn't have any padding unless you're a massive fatty). I'd offer to mail you a gaunt to test it, but I'm afraid I'd never get it back.

Winfang--I want to wear them because they provide significantly better protection than any of the other options you listed, are extremely safe, extremely well made, and while you're right that they are several hundred years out of specific date, they look a lot less out of place than a big ugly hockey glove while still allowing full manual dexterity inside of the gauntlet. Mine are T6 aluminum not steel, but you're wrong, none of the options you list provide the same protection, and even the full scale hockey gloves that comes close come with a significant loss of dexterity. There are some better fitting leather gauntlets that come close in terms of protection, but from reliable merchants who produce a product that's actually good enough to trust, those are several hundred bucks.

And sorry that didn't turn out to be so brief. I'm not going to say anything more about this in this thread. If you wanna talk more, PM me.
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Arrakis » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:44 pm

OH NOES WE ARE SO SCAREDS OF METAL ELBOWS AND GUANTLETS AND I LOST A TOOF BUT I DON"T WERA A HELMAT LOLOLOLOLOL
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Tiberius Claudius » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:22 pm

Derian / Galya, would you please erase or move the recent comments which do not pertain to the thread topic? This is a great resource and doesn't need to be turded up.

Thanks much!
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Re: Diff of Dagorhir and Belegarth Rulesets

Postby Tor » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:59 pm

Arrakis wrote:OH NOES WE ARE SO SCAREDS OF METAL ELBOWS AND GUANTLETS AND I LOST A TOOF BUT I DON"T WERA A HELMAT LOLOLOLOLOL


Hey, helmet head? That leather "toof" **** you're wearing in your avatar? Let's see if it can stop *my* elbow, no metal. Then, we'll let Soo have a try wearing steel elbows. Regardless, you can trololololo all the way to the dentist. If you were a half-decent troll, that is.
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