Belegarth

New thread with higher level of detail:

SKBC 2010 will be Feb 25-28 in King City California. This is a little earlier than we are used to but the relatively mild temperatures (60s in the daytime) will allow us to get away with it. The Westmarch people are mostly exited that we are coming.

Sword Knight Boot Camp is an event run specifically to teach the details of foam sword fighting. It is sponsored by a committee of Amtgarders who believe in improving the quality of fighting skills (called FWACK). The event is not officially organized by any kingdom, park or regional Amtgard body. The event generally uses Amtgard rules (although some exposure to Belegarth or other systems is also part of the event). Whether you can receive credits or any other Amtgard notice from the event is an issue for local leadership to decide.

The format of the event is that Friday and Saturday are spent in intense class setting teaching. Event attendees sign up for the classes they are most interested in. These classes contain a mixture of lecture, drill and exercise. In between classes students and instructors ditch to practice what they have learned. At SKBC most of your meals will be taken care of and in general the whole event eats together. This provides an ideal environment to seek out more of the instructors in a casual setting and keeps the focus on talking shop as regards foam fighting.

The event’s narrow focus on fighting skill development means that there won’t be battlegames, quests, feasts or A&S. These are all wonderful parts of Amtgard but not in the scope of this event. The level of the classes is geared from the basic to the relatively advanced so anyone who is interested in improving their fighting skills can benefit from this event.

The instructors are chosen from among the elite fighters of Amtgard. From Amtgard, FWACK only invites instructors who have earned a Warlord and/or a Knighthood of the Sword from their own kingdom. We also invite a few of the best fighters and instructors from similar foam sports on the basis that those different environments breed different techniques and there is a benefit to all of us from sharing such information. While I personally am only one member of the committee that choses who to invite as instructors, I think its very likely that the Belegarth instructors we invited last year will be invited again as well as a couple of new Belegarth guys.


I know everyone is interested in the next steps so here is the info I have for sure.

In the beginning of Novemeber FWACK will have our final planning meeting and will decide who we are inviting as instructors. During Novemeber, I will get those instuctors who can come to commit and the first week in December the SKBC website will be updated for 2010 pre-registration.

To any Belegarth fighters within driving distance of this event, I highly recommend going.

To any Belegarth warriors truly looking to open up new doors to their fighting potential, I recommend getting there by whatever means necessary.

I feel confident saying that any Belegarth warrior who has attended this event comes back with a revolutionized understanding about Amtgard and about the amount of technical skill that can be applied to our swordplay. SKBC heartily welcomed Peter and I as guest instructors last year and everyone from Belegarth was given a good time and lots to learn from. FWACK really showed us their dedication to cross-gaming and welcomed our ways of fighting. Belegarth-style battles were included last year and everyone went home with new appreciation for each others' games and swordfighting skills.

If you live in the west and are serious about upping your game, I implore you to try to make it to this event.

i put my PtQ seal of approval on SKBC, everyone should go

p_quick wrote:i put my PtQ seal of approval on SKBC, everyone should go

I believe they have medication for getting rid of that now.

i see what you did there

Yeah, these dudes know what the **** is up. Lots of quality skill to learn from and a very fast paced fighting environment to try it all out in. Does nothing but good for your fighting skill.

Great News.

The web site is live and you can now pre-register for classes.

http://www.swordknight.com

Class sizes are limited and it’s well worth signing up early.

We are missing a few of our favorite instructors but we have a lot of other favorites and a great crop of new guys in attendance and overall; I think it’s safe to say this is our best instructor team overall.

Finally, thanks are needed for our site autocrat, Keluric; for our FWACK autocrat, Yoto; and especially for our Webmaster, Megiddo. These guys have a hell of a lot more work to do, of course, but they deserve a thank you now.

Is it unkosher to sign up if you're not 100% positive you'll be able to attend?

Please sign up. If you can remember to un-sign if you learn you cant come thats very helpful but not required.

Cool, will do as soon as I can get my login worked out.

Two more questions: where's the best place to fly into, and are there any cabins or anything? Hotels nearby mayhaps?

Derian wrote:Cool, will do as soon as I can get my login worked out.

Two more questions: where's the best place to fly into, and are there any cabins or anything? Hotels nearby mayhaps?

This is my part of the world, so I can help a little. San Jose's the closest major airport, but Oakland, Monterey, and San Francisco are all options too. Personally I'd recommend SJ-Mineta as it will be easier to get to and from, and much closer to the site (OAK and SFO are an hour further north through hectic traffic most of the time).

Don't know about cabins (and the site only talks about camping and motels). Lots and lots of cheapo motels in King City, and Salinas is the next burg up Hwy 101 with plenty motels (but watch the no name places, some are sleazy).

For Belegarthers visiting, Salamandastron has practices on Sundays (when SKBC has ended), up in Santa Cruz - so think about extending your trip and taking in a local realm practice. It's held on the UC Santa Cruz campus, 1-5 (according to the Wiki). Pelargir (San Francisco) is not currently active, but there is also a Dag chapter practice on Saturdays in Silicon Valley (Sunnyvale) that you're welcome to visit.

San Jose is very much the best airport. Besides being closer its a nicer airport than most of the other options as well. Camping and hotels are the only options as the site doesnt have cabins. Cost was the reason for this.

And Kyrax, how is the interest among the neighboring Belegrim?

I hsve been in charge of the instructors and classes at SKBC for several years and I am also a regular member of the Bel realm of Ruhn where I play 2-3 times a month. I am very committed to making this event as valuable as possible for all foam combatants.

If any bel people have questions about classes or instructors, i will offer my candid opinion. Peter and Bhakdar are also great sources since they instructed last year too.

Michael wrote: Peter and Bhakdar are also great sources since they instructed last year too.

I, on the other hand, am most certainly not a good source by any means.

Actually Mel has attedned more SKBCs than any other Belegrim so hes a great source too. I didnt mean to forget him.

Michael wrote:And Kyrax, how is the interest among the neighboring Belegrim?

The active local realm is all new folks and they're not really tied into this board. They just found out about this a week or so ago, but I think their realm leader is encouraging those interested to attend.

So when FWACK wants to hire some high-end Dagorhir fighters to teach, I'll be ready.

Solusar wrote:hire

Solusar wrote:high-end Dagorhir fighters

New pole, which part of the statement was funnier?

Okay so the high-end thing is a joke, but seriously?

Teh Mel wrote:

Michael wrote: Peter and Bhakdar are also great sources since they instructed last year too.

I, on the other hand, am most certainly not a good source by any means.

no mel your like using "Custer went here" for a West Point ad.

now jimmy, technically Chicken and I are both Dagorhir by realm status so i shouldnt be laughing at this.

The difficultly of discussing Dagohir and other foam combat sports together candidly on the web has been one of the real challenges to inviting Dagohir instructors. A lot of people self identify as high end but the challenge is is getting people who are identified by others...

Michael wrote:The difficultly of discussing Dagohir and other foam combat sports together candidly on the web has been one of the real challenges to inviting Dagohir instructors. A lot of people self identify as high end but the challenge is is getting people who are identified by others...

Not difficult at all - we're talking about it here, and conversations take place regularly on the topic. Though admittedly many such things devolve into penile measurement or flaming contests.

As for me, nope, not high-end or high-maintenance. I've only been doing this since '87, so I've signed up for classes at SKBC (it's a 2 hour drive for me). Gotta learn basic drills, how to use a polearm, and how to keep fighting after 30...

First I may have been to diplomatic in my phrasing. Of course we can talk about it here but this is a Bel board and this clearly not a good place to talk to more than a minority of Dagohir people. The Dag Board clearly has rules about discussing other organiztions which I intend to respect. That makes it hard to ask a large population of Dag people to identify the most skilled fighters in the organization so we can consider inviting them to SKBC.

Michael wrote:First I may have been to diplomatic in my phrasing. Of course we can talk about it here but this is a Bel board and this clearly not a good place to talk to more than a minority of Dagohir people. The Dag Board clearly has rules about discussing other organiztions which I intend to respect. That makes it hard to ask a large population of Dag people to identify the most skilled fighters in the organization so we can consider inviting them to SKBC.

that and the Dag boards are not filled with the best fighters more the general randomness. Youd get a lot of vote for people who are on the boards not really the best fighters/teachers. The best way to try to see it would be to go to a larger dagorhir event (Rag, badon, gates or even something like the Olympics) and scout there. Scout may not be the best word but you understand what i mean.

I agree. Its more or less what we did with Bel fighters but the fact that I am a regular Bel player helps since I can get in on those 'who's good' bull sessions anyway. The issue there is that its a long process. We started in for Bel quite a while ago and for Dag much more recently.

Varadin wrote:even something like the Olympics)

I thought they wanted good Dagorhir fighters, not good Belegarth fighters playing Dagorhir.

Snip snap.

The olympics draws a lot of good fighters from all 3 games. The problem is not a whole lot of teams stand up to Xiao, Galin, kenny and PTQ. That was just cruel in every way and awesome to watch.

I'm I the only one that just calls Peter "Petey-Q" in my head now?

I pre-reged for SKBC and so can you!

Now I just gotta figure out the logistics of how to get there.

Arrakis wrote:

Varadin wrote:even something like the Olympics)

I thought they wanted good Dagorhir fighters, not good Belegarth fighters playing Dagorhir.

Well, there are two Dag players in the top 9 ranked fighters for the 2010 Olympics. Given the comparitive talent pool, I'd suggest skipping Dag instructors and stick with Bel if you want to offer to reach the Bel/Dag audience. Dag's just too far behind still.

Top Five Ranks from Olympics 09'
------------------------------------------

1. Peter the Quick : Rogues / Belegarth
2. Keonee: Sol Invictus / Amtgard
3. Rook: Hydra / Belegarth
3. Galin: Knights of Numenor / Belegarth
4. Heydeez: Sol Invictus / Amtgard
4. Jari: Black Hawks Fan Club / Dagorhir
5. Konrad: Sol Invictus / Amtgard
5. Miensel: Unknown / Dagorhir
5. Wisp: Sol Invictus / Amtgard

Wisp wrote:Well, there are two Dag players in the top 9 ranked fighters for the 2010 Olympics. Given the comparitive talent pool, I'd suggest skipping Dag instructors and stick with Bel if you want to offer to reach the Bel/Dag audience. Dag's just too far behind still.

Snarkiness aside, one event does not make a very good sample. SKBC has been drawing Bel players in numbers for what, a few years? Give it time and exposure before you expect the same from Dagorhir. And having it so far from most Dagorhirrim this year doesn't help either (though my new kids here in the Bay area are going to love it). On the other hand, given the similarities between Dagorhir and Belegarth, looking at those classes and the instructors as fairly interchangeable is probably a safe bet.

If you want to make an impression on Dagorhir and Dagorhirrim, then show up at Ragnarok as has been talked about and make that impression on the field and in person. If half the numbers I've heard bandied about on e-sam show up this year, you'll get a lot more participation in the future both from instructor level folks as well as potential trainees. And that's the point right, more people making it more fun for everyone.

I wasn't attempting to be snarky, I was giving an honest opinion. Since June of 08', I've attended Rag, Gates of Summer, Olympics, on the Dag side of the house and I consider that to be fairly well exposed to the East, middle, and western fighters that Dag has to offer. At no point did I consider any of the top talent from Dag (not Dag/Bel) at those events, SKBC instructor calibur or much above typical Amt-kingdom average quality. Not trying to slam anyone or have a * waving contest, I'm just simply saying, Dag is pretty far behind their Bel counterparts in terms of stick. If I were FWACK committee, I'd look at Bel for my instructors in order to reach a Dag audience because of the common ground. Magnus being the possible exception due to his exposure and ability to impliment across the platforms.

Everything else you've mentioned is of course correct. More exposure grows the game(s). This year it is between Rag and Arm. I'm picking Arm becuase (1), I've been to Rag and now want to hit ARM, and (2), given the cost and time involved with Rag, it's not really worth it this year. Maybe next year will look different. I do intend to hit most of the regional Dag events this year though and look forward to hanging with my Dag pals.

Will

Wisp, three events still aren't necessarily indicative (or was it all three each year?). Regardless you've a right to your opinion, and I'm not questioning that this is how you feel. My comment about showing in numbers was not aimed at you personally (that's not fair to put on one person), but more generally towards Amtgard. So far there've been relative handfuls of Amtgardrim at Ragnarok.

Having never been to SKBC I don't know if the instructors are there because they can teach or can do the thing or both. Like I said, I'll have a better idea once I've seen it in action. I'm going not just to learn things, but also to see if I can learn how to teach others better.

No, I attended as many Bel and Dag events (more Dag than Bel this last year) as I did Amtgard with SCA coming in a distant 4th (hope to have that reversed this season). If you toss in all the local events and practices to the National events, I attended well over 10 Dag functions just in 09'. Toss in Bel and Lord of War, and that number jumps again to well over 25-30.

From my experience traveling through Alabama, Georgia, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, Missouri, hitting Dag and Bel groups, plus Rag, Olympics, Gates, and Lord of War, and several group openers, Dag is pretty far behind their Bel counterparts in terms of how they play the foam fighting game. It's not so much of a lack of ability or one game is superior to another, it seems more like a cultural thing and willingness to understand self or explore possibilities and expand the game. I think you'll get a better idea of what I'm saying after attending SKBC. Hopefully Lord of War will bring it all together into a nice mix this year and do well with the numbers. I know every Dag friend that did attend LoW I talked to said it was an eye opener. Same with the Dag friends who attended SKBC.

From my experience, Bel has been more open to sharing knowledge and technique and both Bel and Amt have gained from it. Dag on the other hand is still stuck in a goofy rant about hitting hard and feeling like a real warrior everywhere I go with the exception of Middle March in Idianapolis. Those guys are pretty solid. They also cross-game like a mo'fo. I hope to see more exposure this year and get some of the regional Dag chapters out to Lord of War and the groups out your way to SKBC.

Keep in mind, I'm referring to serious players of all three games and not the typical "green paint and elf ears" fighters who insist on using scythes or something like that. All three groups have those in abundance. I consider myself a serious player, but I am well aware that my skill ability is this side of average in Amtgard terms.

Will

Wisp wrote: ...Dag on the other hand is still stuck in a goofy rant about hitting hard and feeling like a real warrior...

And you say that like it's a bad thing. Guaging things from your cultural biases doesn't make them necessarily true or false, it just makes the result your opinion based on that assumption. Now that you've altered your description of your sampling, it seems more valid, but I think that there remain missing elements. If I can help here, it's to emphasize that in Dagorhir, tournament fighting and one-on-ones are an afterthought. The essence of the fighting is in unit and team battles on the field (and in the woods, forts, etc.), mass actions, not individual ones. I think that you and I or someone from your group had a similar discussion prior to Rag XXIII, with clear cultural biases in the way that both of us approached the subject. Individual skills and prowess are great, but can be trumped by group capabilities - a mass of spuds can kill a wargod if given half a chance.

But like I said, I'm going to SKBC to learn and to see what I can translate into our way of doing things. I'm guessing that some will apply, some will be less effective and others won't be applicable. From the class list alone I see gaps as to what I'd want to see in a Dagorhir version of SKBC, gaps that may be more culturally rooted than based on actual differences in technique or practice. I could be wrong about some of that, or not, but I'm going with an open mind and to have fun meeting new folks and sharing information.

All I'm really trying to say is that I would like to encourage more participation by Dagorhirrim in things like SKBC and crossover events, not less. This year the location isn't conducive to that (or the economy is limiting those who want to make it but can't afford to). If I get half of what I expect out of SKBC, I'll be singing its praises at Ragnarok (and other events if I can afford them) and encouraging another wave of crossovers next year.

I have told my realm about this event in the hopes that I can get people interested enough to go. My realm is in Santa Cruz, which isn't far from King City at all, so it would be perfect for my realm to get to. I'm planning on going, and hopefully others of my realm will want to as well. Just letting you know that you might get a swarm of Salamandastron fighters coming to this event.

Oh and if anyone was interested to join one of our practices after the event, I'm sure we will welcome you with open arms. Kyrax was correct about our practices being on Sundays from 1-5. If anyone is interested in joining our practice, please PM me or my realm leader Vek.

Thats fantasic news, Dyre. I enourage you and any of your realm mates who are thinking of coming to pre-register. We are better able to plan the event and make sure we have the right class locations and resources if we have rough idea how many students each class can expect. This is especially true for the Contact fighting class which is only useful for people who play Bel or Dag since contact fighting isnt part of Amtgard.

As for the California location not being ideal for cross gaming, we know that but SKBC moves around the nation based on where we get a solid bid to host the event and there is a reasonable base of students to be taught. California met these qualificaitons admirably.

Finaly, I encourge everyone who comes to SKBC to fill out the post event evaluations and to communicate with me about any things you like, things you dislike or suggestions for improvements. One of the advantages of having the same group running the teaching part of the event ervery year is that we can really install a culture of continuous improvement.

Kyrax is a Dag shill, yeah, we know. Sorry no one warned you, Wisp.

Kyrax: You can say that it's all about unit fighting in Dag if you want, but the fact is that there are Bel and Amt units that will ruin the best units in Dagorhir. Same as in one-on-one, same as in tourney.

Wisp's characterization of Dag as having too big a hard-on for "Me heap big hard-swinging, heavy-weapon user!" and not enough emphasis on getting good at the game is Spot On as far as my experience goes, too.

We try not to bash other games unduly on this forum, but dammit, Kyrax, don't take advantage of that to keep on chuggin' about how great Dag is. Wisp is speaking Facts.

Kyrax wrote:

Wisp wrote: ...Dag on the other hand is still stuck in a goofy rant about hitting hard and feeling like a real warrior...

And you say that like it's a bad thing. Guaging things from your cultural biases doesn't make them necessarily true or false, it just makes the result your opinion based on that assumption.

No, the point I am attempting to make is that when it comes to finding the right talented person in Dag that would do justice to the SKBC event, it absolutely is a bad thing.

And yes, Dag is much more unit centered and all that. Compared to Bel, which is also a much more unit centered game, Dag still is way behind. That is my honest opinion and assessment. It doesn't mean Dag is worse or Bel is better... just Dag is way behind. Bel has done a Johnny Jump up in the five years I've been cross gaming with any regularity. Bel five years ago compared to Bel now... Totally different attitude and skill level among the top players. I'm totally psyched for Bel. I honestly enjoy the Bel/Dag combat better than Amt and I am enjoying watching the game evolve at such a rapid pace. I really hope Dag follows suite. It really is a marvelous game. Ok, the stabbing rules are still ****'tarded but otherwise... tops!

Will

Arrakis wrote:Kyrax is a Dag shill, yeah, we know. Sorry no one warned you, Wisp.

Yes Arrakis, and Dyre and the local Belegarth realm know about SKBC being in our area - because I told them about it at my local Dagorhir chapter's battle in November. But sure, I'm just a shill. Got it. Next time try reading what I've written instead of jumping to conclusions based on your own assumptions, again.

As for Wisp, sorry if I tried to point out some flaws in his marketing for SKBC. I'm sure that the lowly Dagohirrim will be flocking to attend an event hosted by folks who think they're worthless and their game weak. That would definitely have turned me off if I hadn't been interested in checking it out for a couple of years, and it's almost in my back yard this time around. So I'll still go to SKBC with an open mind and tell folks about it, honestly, for good or ill, some of whom might in time be the kind of folks they'd seek for instructors. Either way, I know I'm not that guy.

I want to come, but I need a ride.
We need to get a Utah to Cali carpool going.
Kyrax, I haven't seen you for years.
This will be fun.
FB

Wisp is not part of the SKBC team. He is a person who has attended several SKBC events. As such, considering his statements as 'marketing' for SKBC is probably in error. The only posters to this forum who are part of the SKBC team are Brennon, Arthon and myself.

Kyrax,

I am not in any way associated with SKBC other than having been to a few. The discussion was regarding where to scout for quality Dag players. My experience with Dag was that it is a dry hole and so I spoke of my experiences. I did not say any Dag player is worthless or that Dag is a weak game. I implied that compared to the other foam fightnig sports, there is no one of quality that I'd suggest FWACK look at to instruct and instead stick with a Bel instructor for that audience.

If I hurt your feelings or offended your sense of pride, sorry.

Will

Silly Wisp, my feelings weren't hurt, though my opinion of you suffered a serious blow.

I thought from your comments that you weren't involved officially in the event, but it was unclear. Either way you're known as an Amtgard fighter here and in Dagorhir forums, and as such your opinions on a moot issue could be taken badly, no make that probably will be, by the very audience that might someday be the kind of folks who could take on that role. There was no discussion other than a some posts a couple of weeks ago where Michael agreed that the right Dagorhirrim hadn't been found and a few crossover folks made jokes about it. That discussion had already rested on the point that skilled Belegarth folks would teach the same things, due to the similarities of the games. So your necro'ing wasn't to add something more to that, and sure wasn't aimed at encouraging like-minded folks who want to up their game from trying SKBC some day. The most recent post, a half-hearted apology-cum-repetition of your opinions, does nothing to help that process. I stand by my feeling that your opinions are based on a flawed or at least incomplete sample of Dagorhir fighter skills. That doesn't make them wrong, but it at least begs the question of the blanket level of your statements that no such person exists.

Now, can we let Michael and gang get back to encouraging people to come and learn? That's what I want to do amongst my local Dagorhir and Belegarth groups (and will also do so down in Los Angeles next month).

Cool story Bro.

Will

Now I'm coming just to see you two * catfight.
Great googa mooga.
FB

Kyrax, I love you.

But in my travels I have also noticed that Dagorhir skill level is behind Belegarth. And you know I travel to many events of both games

Wisp, I do not love you, but I have to agree with you.

Hope to see you all at SKBC, will there be rides from the airport ? Hotels near the site ?

Crynolyn wrote:But in my travels I have also noticed that Dagorhir skill level is behind Belegarth. And you know I travel to many events of both games

Wisp, I do not love you, but I have to agree with you.

Hope to see you all at SKBC, will there be rides from the airport ? Hotels near the site ?

Guys, I wasn't arguing relative levels, just whether such a person could exist in Dagorhir. But let it rest and let's get back to the point, SKBC 2010.

I may be able to arrange a ride Cryn - drop me a line, though I'm probably driving down on Friday morning. Plenty of hotels in King City and some of the other towns along 101. I recommend the Motel 6 in KC - it's clean, newly renovated and just across the highway from the park. I've stayed there a number of times and rates are around $45 a night.

Oh, and for those Bel/Dag folks interested, on Sunday after SKBC has wrapped up there's a Bel practice in Santa Cruz.

Thank you Kyrax I will see if I can make it. 40% chance...

Awesome. Now, since I'm not bringing enough gear, due to cramped van space in my future, I will be getting drunk and crashing in random rooms at the motel 6. Yay for continental breakfast!
See you soom Kyrax! I'll bring a new viking hat.
FB