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 Post subject: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:47 pm 
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So, if I understand the rules of being a member of the Dagorhir "Rome" unit, this poor guy who made his own armour will have to give this armour he made to Dominus if he should ever--voluntarily or involuntarily--leave Rome.

http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=17062.0

This section of the "Roman Citizenship Contract" is what leads me to this conclusion:

Quote:
I understand that any item acquired or assembled by me or for me, while a citizen of Rome, of a wargaming club nature will be forfeit to Rome in the event my citizenship is either revoked or voluntarily withdrawn by me. Items of a wargaming nature shall include all costuming, armor, weapons, literature and all miscellaneous items designed specifically for participation in a war gaming club.


So, even if this poor guy had bought his own armour from some website, he'd still have to forfeit it to Dominus if he left the group, right?

If I understand this policy of theirs correctly, that's pretty nasty. Hell, a very strict reading of the rule could lead one to the interpretation that anything the person buys "of a wargaming nature" that he doesn't use for Rome, but uses in another game, would belong to Dominus if the guy left for any reason.

Are they serious about this? Can they actually enforce this? Have they enforced it in the past to take other people's belongings?

If this is true, then Rome stands convicted in my estimation of some serious *, and it stands as yet more evidence of Dominus's supreme indifference to the rights and feelings of other people and his all-consuming need to control the lives of as many people as he can impose his will upon.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:31 pm 
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If I recall correctly (and I could be way off), that guy isn't in that Rome. He posts on these boards from time to time, so maybe he'll check in here.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:04 pm 
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This has never been enforced in the manner you're suggesting. This topic comes up every once in a while, on some foamfighting board or other, with the same reaction. About a thouasand votes for "OMG ROME ARE DOUCHEZ!!1!!1", and a half a dozen Dag vets patiently explaining that a caveat like this is occasionally necesarry to keep unit equipment from walking out the door, and nobody would be stupid enough to attempt petty theft and then use completely non-binding unit charters to defend it.

Yes, this could potentially be used to justify ass-hattery. What couldn't?

(Edited for spelling)

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:24 pm 
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What Derian said, he's not a member of that unit, he's just yet another fan of gladiator movies and ancient culture. The guy made his own armor, it's his.

Like Slagar said, if you think that you've discovered some deep, dark secret, sorry charlie. That one's been discussed ad infinitum both here and on the Dagorhir board and probably elsewhere for a long, long time. If you look around you can probably even find a comment from Dominus himself poo-pooing wild interpretations of that unit rule. My friends who are or were Romans laugh at these types of claims - Slagar's right that it's about keeping unit stuff from walking off or putting a lot of effort into helping outfit d-bags that immediately run off. We've all seen that happen, haven't we?

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:30 am 
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We've all seen that happen, haven't we?


Well yah, but not having D-bags in my unit in the first place sure does help.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:27 am 
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Its the whole thing of Dominos going into Lawyer mode for writting rules. The can be taking horrible just like the Dagorhir chapter contract. You read it and think about how terrible it could be when really its not ran like that in any way.


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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:12 pm 
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Also, I think it's important to remember that, however we interpret this, it's Rome's rule. If you don't like it, don't join Rome and you'll never have to worry about it.

Lots of units do things that I don't want to do, some of them really cool like the ordeals the Kutriguri undergo, some of them just really lame fraternity-style hazing. I don't want this, so I have not petitioned to join any of their units. As long as a unit's upfront about what it expects of its members, I don't care how they want to do things amongst themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:05 pm 
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My 2 cents.

I can understand the rule in certain cases, specifically if Rome-specific armor/garb/weapons are involved. Only ever seen Rome use near full Roman armor, and it's kind of a big deal when it comes down to how they look compared to other units.

Now when it comes to stuff that was made on the side, not pertaining at all to Rome in terms of looks/make/overall use, then this rule becomes a load of horse ****.

Meh. Just surprises me what some people will sign now days.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:02 pm 
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can you trade garb and armor in bartering/trade for other equipment, liquor or food?

I would eat the value of my gear away at an event before quitting and leaving the tunic and the wrappers from the food

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:20 am 
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Derian wrote:
If I recall correctly (and I could be way off), that guy isn't in that Rome.


The "poor guy," aka: Tiberius on these boards, was one of my first FL fighters and is indeed a member of Dominus' Rome. Last I heard he was to be the 'Legion Commander' in FL, but he moved to Ohio -- I'm currently unsure of his status, but I assume he is no longer in charge of a Legion. I believe Jade will be running the Legion in FL now (just a little FYI).

To my understanding, Dominus is also referring to armor made with their proprietary muscle cuirass technique (which they assist with in construction and materials) in a subtle manner. I belive the rule is addressed in 'general' for the sake of eliminating loopholes.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:14 pm 
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lol

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:08 pm 
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Unenforceable even if they tried.

Even Dominus isn't quite as douchetastic in real life as he sounds like in writing. Close, but not quite.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:33 pm 
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Sorry I never found this topic until now.

The rule you are referring to is for the armour made and given to you if and when you gain Roman citizenship. This armour was my brainchild and was made for one of my guys down in Florida who is, like i was myself, a belegarth fighter. Dominuis knows about the armour and i asked his permission to make a muscled breastplate and he said it wasn't a big deal. The reason for that rule is for Roman citizens only and not auxiliaries, and even so it is a crossbreed between the standard Musculata in Dagorhir Rome and what is historically standard Segmentata.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:29 pm 
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Slagar wrote:
... and then use completely non-binding unit charters to defend it.


Oisin wrote:
Unenforceable even if they tried.


Even though this particular rule appears to be only to prevent realm gear from being pilfered, that's a non-sequitur - if they wanted to enforce it to such a draconian end they could. Such agreements aren't non-binding - they are civil contracts; enforceable in civil court - like Judge Judy, et al. No police department will come out and arrest you for it, however if the "Rome" group wanted to, they could in fact present the case in civil court and argue that you had agreed (verbal or written) and that you then breached the contract. It is a stupid and nasty aspect of the law which people abuse all the time.

I am a 911 dispatcher and field calls re: this type of situation every day. Basically, any group/person can require whatever they want and even if you don't read it or understand it, if you agree to it - so long as you weren't lied to - you are legally bound by it. The difficulty, however, lies in proving that the defendant is in fact party to such a contract. If it's something that's signed - that's the nail in the coffin.

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Also, I think it's important to remember that, however we interpret this, it's Rome's rule. If you don't like it, don't join Rome and you'll never have to worry about it.


Bingo.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:47 pm 
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Prove that I made that sword while a member of Rome. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:47 am 
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Video evidence of construction at a Rome unit weapon making party?

*stir stir stir your pot*


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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:35 am 
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I know, stirring the pot is fun, isn't it?

But that was my old sword that broke two weeks ago . . . this is the new one I made last week after I quit Rome . . . I just broke it in on my pell pretty well already!

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:39 am 
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I was there, man. I saw you make that sword at Domonis' place last month. Arrakis was there too. Apearently he's got a camera.
I would never sign something like that. Anyone who would deserves what they get.
To be fair, I have talked to several people who know the Dom and say he/Rome would never do that.
But signing stupid ****? Thats why my group joined Bel instead of Dag back at the split. I don't sign contracts.
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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:22 am 
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I agree, it's stupid, and I wouldn't sign it myself, because in any number of ways I don't share Rome's apparent values and they don't seem to share mine.

But if there's someone for whom joining Dominus' Rome is a good decision for them at that time, I wouldn't try to dissuade them just because of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:51 pm 
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It's not what you think it is guys. The things that Dominus or any of the Romans made with his materials for you to use and there armor desing. It was made to keep people out who want to come in get **** and get out.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:33 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:47 pm 
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I absolutely get it. I don't even think it's evil or anything. They can do whatever they want with thier unit. And there are many people who enjoy being part of an organized, strucured group.
I'm just saying signing **** like that ain't my style.
And IF it did go bad, the people involoved would get what the deserved, giving power over thier fun to someone like that.
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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:41 pm 
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and I understand your point Forkbeard. I like the structure and discipline of being a soldier and to me it's how I have fun in the game. when I started my Rome in Bel(before I knew about Doms Rome) I wanted it to form into what Dominus had already made, and we had our little secrets on making superior weapons in which we didn't want everyone to know. I didn't make anyone sign anything and it did go wrong on me cause one of my guys defected taking all our secrets and designs with him. Now as angry as I was then I am fine with it now cause it did help better the local area cause as a whole. My secrets where no longer secrets and I started to see them in use on our field. I am all for the betterment of the game now and the only thing I will not help anyone make is the muscled breastplate. I have made one and know how to and I have aided people in the making of armor such as the one that this thread started about.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:25 am 
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Secret designs and refusing to share knowledge hurts the whole game.

If someone wants a musculata, they'll figure out a way to make it, either by trial and error or by doing research on a site like the Archive, so why not help them?

If you need secret designs and whatever to be the big king of your area, you're probably doing it wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:03 am 
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I figured it out on my own without Doms design and im sure most people could and honestly i don't even know how dom makes his! I don't like the Muscled breastplate thats why I wear the segmentata, but it is in the contract that i not aid non Romans in the construction of previously stated armor. I have helped a few make segmentata and then i made the hybrid out of curiosity of design.

When I started my Rome I wanted to help my unit become better and I am not going to lie I wanted my team to be the best and when I took the drive to better my unit and was hatted for doing so of course I got defensive of my ideas. people will automatically hate on the guys with the most, but I was doing it at the expense of others in the area and realized when my comrade abandoned me that it was the wrong approach to the game, so when the rest of the realms around started hurting i took a more outward approach and still continue to. I had my power trip and it wasn't a fun ride. I try and enjoy myself as much as possible now without having supreme command over people. I left my unit in florida to Lady Jade and am planning on eventually starting a group up here that doesn't entitle me as imperator. that is Dominus's job and until he see's me fit to be an actual commander I plan on just advising. I don't care for the politics and such behind all of it anymore I just want to fight and have a good time.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:54 am 
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On a slight change of topic...do you have a picture of that hybrid piece? i must admit to some curiosity here :)


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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:31 am 
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kadis wrote:
On a slight change of topic...do you have a picture of that hybrid piece? i must admit to some curiosity here :)

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:19 am 
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That is really nice looking. Bravo.

thanks man.


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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:45 pm 
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I added 2 more segments onto the shield arm to make it symmetrical and it looks a lot better now. i plan on maybe making some for myself out of stainless eventually.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:32 am 
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Very cool.
No secrets, but Dominus' offical armor doesn't really take knowin secrets either.
Couple tips for your next project.
1 do it. This will look sick in stainless. You used Galvinized sheet steel here? Stop doing that. You can get a mirror polish that doesn't rust with proper care with mild steel very easily. Galvinizing looks like * and isn't neccesary. And more expensive.
2. Steel ball welded to a hammer head and a leather sand bag for shaping.
3. Power planisher from harbor freight. Great use for $100. You need an air compressor to run it, but it will make your raised parts smooth as a babys * and very, very shinny.
Nice work.
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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:11 pm 
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Thanks! the guy supplied me with the Galvy for free so I just worked with it. I use a set of English wheel anvils and a bowling ball for my shaping. AND I WANT ONE SO BAD! I worked with a blacksmith who had one when i was making my helmet and it was amazing. I plan on getting one as soon as I get some extra cash.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:54 am 
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Tiberius is the worst person on this earth.

I hate him with every fiber of my being, he is such a *. i hope rome takes all his ****.

:angel:
move back to florida so there will be a roman here i cant roflpwn with my eyes closed.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:39 am 
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lol at least you've still got jade ;) and i think Sextius is gonna start coming back out. the rest of them have all gone into the military. oh yeah and walker will be back around june time.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:40 am 
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I think that I should add the fact that Romans on many occasions help fighters outside of Rome make weapons, garb and armor. They simply don't help them make ROMAN weapons, garb or armor. They don't help them make sub-par items either.

A big thing for Rome is that they have a LOT of community property to protect. If a person decided to bail and took say- the Roman trailer that has a couple grand worth of stuff in it, it would cause a huge mess. So, they make you sign the form protecting ALL Roman community property.

Forkbeard- you are well within your rights to not want to sign anything and you should NEVER sign something you don't believe in, anyway.

I had someone else in Florida ask me this since he dressed as a Roman (He isn't even petitioning Dag's Rome and if he does it will make no difference) if he would have to give his armor back since Tiberius helped him make it. There is simply a style Rome doesn't like to give out unless it's to other Romans or applies to items that Rome gave materials for. Romans pay dues, which they make extra armor, weapons etc for auxiliaries or new Romans to use. I told him there is no chance any Roman would ever ask him to give it up. Because there isn't.

Rome isn't everyone's thing and I sure as heck wouldn't even want it to be that way. I like being a Roman for the fact that is puts a nice big bullseye on my chest and pretty much guarantees that the odds will always be stacked against me on a field. I wound up a Roman by accident almost although I think it's a very happy accident.

I love my non-Roman friends and I have a LOT, both Dag and Bel. I like to fight. I fight almost exclusively Bel now because that is what the better fighters near me are fighting.

Incidently I am hoping at some point to make it to a big Bel event- maybe Okfest.

Anyway *bighugs* to everyone I do know and hope to see you soon!

Oh and if Murdock isn't going to Rag this year, can someone near him kick him in the a** for me and tell him that it's from Jade?

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:16 am 
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Quote:
A big thing for Rome is that they have a LOT of community property to protect. If a person decided to bail and took say- the Roman trailer that has a couple grand worth of stuff in it, it would cause a huge mess. So, they make you sign the form protecting ALL Roman community property.


This is nonsense. We(my unit), also has a trailer full of unit gear. All kinds of stuff from weapons and **** to tents and camp ****. We also have heaps and heaps of members. We need no papers to keep people from stealing stuff. We just manage it like it's real life. People don't steal from their freinds. If they do, we ain't friends anymore and we'll hurt them.
No one has ever stolen anything considered group property. No one in our group has ever stolen anything from anyone in our group.
The one time there was a theif who stole from people outside our unit(Draven. Yes I name names), we simply took all stolen property from him upon seeing him. He complained, but we told him to get ****, kicked him right out, and he moved away, problem solved.
If you had some large, enforcer types in your unit, you wouldn't need rules that get you questioned so much. I, personaly would rather hang out with tough, stand up folks who don't take **** from theives and manipulators. The last thing a group of freinds(which is what a unit should be, however large) is legal documents to control thier behavior.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:29 am 
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To each their own.

Since I would never steal from anyone, let alone my brothers, I don't care about signing a silly piece of paper that says I won't.

Forkbeard- I'm glad your group is tight knit and treat each other with respect. I'm also glad you took your stuff back and hope you beat the holy hell out of him for it!

I look forward to facing you on a field sometime! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:45 am 
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Alric wrote:
Also, I think it's important to remember that, however we interpret this, it's Rome's rule. If you don't like it, don't join Rome and you'll never have to worry about it.

Lots of units do things that I don't want to do, some of them really cool like the ordeals the Kutriguri undergo, some of them just really lame fraternity-style hazing. I don't want this, so I have not petitioned to join any of their units. As long as a unit's upfront about what it expects of its members, I don't care how they want to do things amongst themselves.



And this is pretty much how I feel too. :) What a group does shouldn't really matter to you unless you are in it or want to join.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:58 am 
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Don't get me wrong, you folks can do what you want.
I just speak up when you try to make the stupid rules dominus, in his legalistic paranoia created, are neccesary in any way.
They are not. I would rather any newer people who read this understand that they never need to sign anything but a waiver to fight. They should never be requiered to pay dues or any other such * unless they want to, either.
I think much of what Rome has dome over the years is very cool and worthy of respect. I love the whole roman thing, huge armies of well armed people and formation fighting. It's one of the reasons we created our unit.
There just some stuff y'all do that I think is silly.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:49 pm 
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two cents on keeping realm/unit ****:

We have realm weapons that are all stamped and we simply take inventory at the end of every practice. It works very well.

Someone mentioned that this contract could be used in a court of law and be legally binding... that's unsettling. regardless of the purpose behind the rule this it's written strangely because as our sport continues eventually different people will be running Rome and they may not be as true to the spirit of the rule than to the letter.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:48 pm 
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I understand you disagree with the contract FB but it is what it is. and understand that much of the reason this is in place is because people have run off with very costly amounts of stuff that technically was the units. it's more alluring to people who want to steal to steal expensive things.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Tiberius wrote:
I understand you disagree with the contract FB but it is what it is. and understand that much of the reason this is in place is because people have run off with very costly amounts of stuff that technically was the units. it's more alluring to people who want to steal to steal expensive things.


Color me confused, but if someone walked off with items/equipment that belonged to the Unit, here in America we call that "theft". You have the legal system on your side to reclaim said items, especially since you have many witnesses who can provide information on who owns what. Signing a worthless contract isn't going to add any more clout to this, and it makes the entire group look like a bunch of paranoid d-bags.

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:31 pm 
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Someone must have stolen their "intellectual property" like how to make a muscle cuise, or how to make a decent sword. Gotta protect all your good ideas from being stolen, it's the Dag way. :devil:

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 3:56 pm 
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I believe the secret of Rome's muscle cuirasses is "never planish anything" and "make everything too small for you."

Oops, now I've gone and said it. :armor6:

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 Post subject: Re: Rome's Rules
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:24 am 
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From my interpretation the rules would incluse roman property. I would assume that means that Dominus or other romans would aid you in making the metal armor. Either by supplying labor, or materials. Thus when/if you leave the unit, that piece that you were helped with by Rome, stays with Rome.

Or they could be being giant **** toolbags. Who knows

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