Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Loptr » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:56 am

Blackhawk wrote:Food for thought:
The only place you can read about this mythical feud between Dag and Bel, is here, so I wonder which party is responsible for fanning those flames?



With all the due respect.

Yes, there is clearly some bias on behalf of some Bel peeps. However, your argument is fundamentally flawed. There is only one place you can discuss it without the threat of banning. That would be this place.

The other side of the coin if you will. The xenephobic crowd that will not tolerate open dialogue is perhaps not allowing these fires to be discussed hence possibly allowing one to move on???? (Yes, I get the potential for an out of control flame war, I am playing devils advocate here.)

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Wisp » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:04 pm

Dammit, Loptr beat me to it. To summarize, Blackhawk, your logic is ridiculous.

Edit: You can also discuss it on E-Sam if ya like. *shrug*... just saying.

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Loptr » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:12 pm

Wisp wrote:Dammit, Loptr
Will


Dearest Will,

Naturally I preemptively sluffed you and your post.

L

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:30 pm

Blackhawk wrote:Food for thought:
The only place you can read about this mythical feud between Dag and Bel, is here, so I wonder which party is responsible for fanning those flames?


In a way you are right Blackhawk, but only in a way. Make no mistake, the is no mythical feud, it is very real, and it is not between the individuals who fight, but the leadership of Dagorhir and the rest of the foam fighting world.

keep in mind I am not just some guy with a beef with Dag. I started fighting long before the split, in Dur-D. I was absent during the split, so I too had originally no political issues with Dag. A friend found thier website, and we started a realm. Signed the contract and ran the realm for two years as a Dag realm. As our realm became more involved with the local foamfighting groups (read Belegarth), pressure from Dag leadership became more pronounced to not work with them. As our realm became more involved we were asked to join Belegarth WC since we had come to Chaos for a couple of years. It was at the point at which we officially became a belegarth realm that Dag began to threaten us with Legal action. Admittedly we were skirting the line in the sand. Not long after that our realm voted and decided to join Belegarth in whole and leave Dag behind, so we cancelled our contract. At that point I was hit with the Ban hammer, presumably for joining the "other side".

This was also 5-6 years ago, and from what I am reading it seems things are changing in the leadership of Dag. which I feel is a good thing. When the new boards were introduced my ban was lifted so I attempted to find out why i was banned in the first place, and recieved no response through e-mails. So I called Dom out in public forum ( I know, not the wisest thing, but I was * by then) and was again banned, permanently this time I guess.

Now all I really wanted in the first place was to get an answer, just some common courtesy. "Why was I banned?" was all I asked and was never given the answer, from the first time to the last.

So when I say I won't support Dag, it's not just their web policies I am objecting to, it's the entire way the organization is run, from the static BoD that only comes from Aratari to the web board policies, I just don't agree with it and can't support it. I speak only for myself, and no one else. I do not encourage others to boycott Dag events, it's a personal protest. I agree that the removal of the people in "charge" and replacing them with more forward thinking people, like yourself Blackhawk, would most likely benefit the foamfighing community as a whole and would encourage that wholeheartedly.

I wouldn't mind being able to post on the Dag boards, but having looked at what's being put up there through proxies, I really have nothing to say there. I could do it, and be fine with it, I have no reason to break the rules there, i am just not allowed.

I have chosen my side and I will stick with it until Dag changes their isolationist policies.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Ilariia Bulochnika » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:07 pm

Varadin & Arrakis - I actually had the "clerical issue" happen to me and one of my banned accounts. I just emailed, asked, and had it taken care of, so I wasn't sure the extant to which this one had been investigated. Apparently I need to Lurk Moar.

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Dedric » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:54 pm

Blackhawk, the "mythical" feud is only to be found here because any mention of it on the Dag forums gets you banned. Any official mention of it on a Dag-related site gets you excommunicated and shunned (yes, I feel that the unrelenting, senseless energy that's been put into this borders on religious fanaticism). And that's if you're lucky, if you're not, they'll be quick to send you warnings and notices in language that sounds like it came out of an MPAA letter.

Honestly, I believe that the DBGA "Belegarth doesn't exist, Belegarth doesn't exist, Belegarth doesn't exist..." attitude comes from the shame the founders feel for letting the situation leading up to the split get that far out of control. Dominus wrote his Anti-Spin (no rivalry? just Google "Belegarth" and see what comes up), and then it became official policy not to talk about it.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Michael » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:45 pm

I think we have a very interesting experiement going on at the moment. Not an planned one but an interesting one none the less. At least in the Midwest where both groups are strong, Amtgard and Belegarth are pretty cooperative. We have a goodly number of crossover players and we talk publically about both organiztions on eachoher's websites. Most members of both groups try hard to stay positive towards eachother and to treat crossovers well online and in person.

As an experiment its imperfect because from what I can tell in the East, where Dagohir is strongest, there is a lot of crossover as well and other than on their web resources, their is cordiality to other foam fighting groups. Still I think that as an experiment Belegarth in the Midwest vs Dagohir in the East over the next few years will be an interesting learning experience.

Since I personally play both Bel and Amtgard weekly, I obviously have an opinion on what the experiment will show over time but I have been wrong before.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Satanaka » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:49 pm

WHAT???

Sindaric Said: "By boycotting you'll only be furthering the big brother like qualities of dagorhir. By attending you'll be giving.....

...Dagorhir- your $$$ Money$$$.

Sindaric Said: Don't be a part of the problem be a part of the solution.

Solution? YOU don't even have any say or effect with your own group BUT you want Belegarth members to support your event? No matter that they get banned for no reason as well as they get their weapons failed for no REAL reason??? Hmmmmmmmm...... Yeah- that don't seem very practical.

Blackhawk Said: There is a place where all the banned people can gather and share information freely. I think this is that place.

Food for thought:
The only place you can read about this mythical feud between Dag and Bel, is here, so I wonder which party is responsible for fanning those flames?

I may not understand you correctly- but this two remarks seems very Hypocritical.

Blackhawk Said: I don't understand why, in an outdoor sport, someone would not go fight because of the interwebs. For example, if I was going to Equinox to fight and chill with my friends, I would not cancel my plans, if i got banned from this forum.

OK- let's ban this dude and all his friends- and fail all his weapons at every event just because and lets see how many Belegarth events he makes- see if he sticks to his words.

As a few have said- I have been and often go to Dagorhir events as well as Belegarth events- I have NOT had any issues so far- BUT- I also have not been to Rag in a few years. I love foam fighting and always try to help where ever I am. Maybe I missread both of your post- BUT- neither make a lot of sense to me.

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Blackhawk » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:24 pm

I see your point about my logic and where the split can be discussed and must admit that there is certainly a flaw in it. I do think that the stuff that went on is old and very few people actually care about it today. To that end, why don't we just agree that stuff happened and move on. Let the people who are still butthurt about it carry that demon within them instead of trying to make it into some sort of current event. I for one an sick and tired of hearing about it.

What we have here now is an impasse regarding board rules and regulations. The rules for this board are very different from the rules governing the Dag boards. It seems that people are having difficulty differentiating the difference between companies and countries. To clear things up, theses are companies. There is no right to free speech in a company. There are degrees similar to freedom of speech that each company will allow to be on their forums. Dags is far stricter than Bels. Of this, I am aware and in agreement. But being that Dag is a company requiring a certain level of decor regarding the content of their boards, they are perfectly within their rights to require that the allowable content be specifically about Dag. This is where most if not all of the bel banned seem to be unable to tread.

Dag wants to present a happy place where birds sing in the background and they all talk about how awesome Dag is and plan to meet in different places all over the country to play Dag. Anyone trying to hash out some decade old feud for all the "innocent" Dag fighters to see, is quickly ripped unceremoniously from the forums and replaced with a rendition of cumbaya. Those guilty of such behavior or simply not possessing the ability to keep topics about Dag are similarly banned. Like it of not, those are the guidelines with which one is faced with when posting on the Dag boards. There are other rules regarding bad language and personal attacks but I think the one regarding the promotion of other foam fighting sports is the one most germane to this conversation.

It seems to me that the people who want to discuss the various foam fighting organizations have a voice right here, a couple of mouse clicks away from the Dag boards. To that end, I would suggest that those people continue to post here and the Dag fighters continue to post on their boards. Just because it is allowed here does not mean that Dag must allow it there. I suggest that if you find yourself banned from the Dag boards, that you simply come to these boards and get your fill of the ideas regarding foam fighting from the good people of Belegarth. But when it comes to fighting and going to events, go where you will have the best time. Don't let the dark abyss that is the interwebs, dictate your battle destinations.

As far as failing weapons just because they are made, or in the possession of, a Bel fighter, I have not seen it. But I can assure you, that it will not happen on my watch as a Rag weapons checker. If you are at Rag and think your weapons are being singled out for failure due to this, do not hesitate to bring them to me so I can deal with both the weapon and the checker personally.

Put the damned keyboard away, put on your gear, and lets beat the snot out of each other.

PS. I hold no office within Dagorhir. I was on the BOD for a year, but I didn't much care for it.

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby bo1 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:42 pm

GVK, i know who you are and have met you several times. i agree you are part of the solution not the problem.

if you think i am n ot going to rag because they banned my account, wrong. i am not going because:

1. their board policy punishes cross over fighters.
2. the rules of rag punish cross over fighters.
3. i am not impressed with the cheating at rag.
4. i dont like the heralds idea of heralding at rag.
5. i dont know enough people at rag to care about not going.
6. it is the furthest event i have traveled to, unless tennesee is further, and the least fun.
7. my money is better spent traveling to chaos wars and having a kick * time with kick * people that love the game of foam fighting( all 4 of them) and dont give a **** what game i play as long as i swing hard and take light.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Arrakis » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:14 pm

Blackhawk wrote:The only place you can read about this mythical feud between Dag and Bel, is here, so I wonder which party is responsible for fanning those flames?


Hmmmm. I don't know, BH, I wonder which party?


PS: I, at least, understand that Dagorhir.com, as a website, is well within its rights to ban people for things and to limit discussion of certain topics. What I disagree with is the backwards, insular thinking that informs the choices made by the very small number of non-elected administrators. As a Ragnarok attendee, I have helped support the website and pay for the work of the "volunteers" that run the Dagorhir Website and boards and I know that I have not had my wishes taken into consideration. In any real company, the shareholders DO have say in the sort of **** that goes on at the company, on the website, and at the meetings. So, basically, the idea that some very large percentage of Dag fighters wish * would quit *' banning crossgamers for trying to bring enlightened conversation to the table, or just making an offer of support or tutelage, but the "volunteers" that run the site keep doing it anyway is abhorrent to anyone with a half an idea how shareholder-supported companies operate.


Now:
I'm not talking about coming on the * Dag Boards saying "LOL Dag sucks go play Amtgard LOL". I'm talking about saying, "Oh, hey! You're from *' Louisville, KY? That's fantastic; there's a 15 yr-old Belegarth Realm RIGHT THERE. Don't try to start a Dag Chapter from scratch and get everything wrong and probably quit before you've been in a year and waste lots of time and money, just go play with Dun Abhon and start having fun RIGHT NOW!" Is that so wrong? To want new fighters to have fun??

Beyond that, what about just saying, "Hey, Peter's gonna be at Olympics and he's a beast; learn from him"? Why is that a bannable offense?

It makes No Sense, and that's why it's offensive.

/ramble
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Mirelle » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:06 pm

Arrakis wrote:
Beyond that, what about just saying, "Hey, Peter's gonna be at Olympics and he's a beast; learn from him"? Why is that a bannable offense?

/ramble


Actually that is not a bannable offense, bo could have done just that. It's the fact that Peter went around a set ban to post on the forum that caused the ban.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Sir Anastasia » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:59 pm

On the bright side, Dag and Bel get along great in the West/SoCal. Just got back from Fool's Raid in Vegas and it was a blast. Let's keep the cooperation up between realms and fighters and eventually change this BS around.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby GvK » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:59 pm

Bo, I remember meeting you as well, last GenCon for starters (though I won't be at GenCon this year). Seems like a pretty reasonable set of reasons for not going to Rag...
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Kyrax » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:30 pm

Arrakis wrote: As a Ragnarok attendee, I have helped support the website and pay for the work of the "volunteers" that run the Dagorhir Website and boards and I know that I have not had my wishes taken into consideration.


The website is paid for solely by DBGA, a non-profit organized in Maryland. And nobody working on that website gets paid.

So, no Arrakis, you haven't. Money spent to attend Ragnarok goes to fund Ragnarok, period. Nobody running Rag or attending the RWC, the body that oversees Ragnarok, gets paid either. The RWC appoints the Ragnarok Business Council (?), the ones who run the event (and which, unless I'm mistaken doesn't include any Aratari at this time). So your money goes to fund something controlled and overseen by the representatives of our chapters. If you don't feel your wishes are being taken into consideration, take it up with your chapter's leadership and urge their representative to vote accordingly.

Arrakis wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:The only place you can read about this mythical feud between Dag and Bel, is here, so I wonder which party is responsible for fanning those flames?


Hmmmm. I don't know, BH, I wonder which party?


Duh Arrakis, sure it takes two sides. We know that. Nice of you to pick up a 5 year old post that isn’t even on the Dagorhir website as an example of “but they’re meanies too.”

I know there are some negative posts on the Dagorhir boards too. But comparing that to the volume of vitriol posted in this forum is silly – it’s molehills to mountains (okay, good sized hills). The endless “Kicked off the Dagorhir Forum” thread is just the latest of these. And each of these threads just reinforces to that minority who views Belegarth as a threat instead of comrades-in-arms that they’re right. This one included.


Arrakis wrote: I'm talking about saying, "Oh, hey! You're from *' Louisville, KY? That's fantastic; there's a 15 yr-old Belegarth Realm RIGHT THERE. Don't try to start a Dag Chapter from scratch and get everything wrong and probably quit before you've been in a year and waste lots of time and money, just go play with Dun Abhon and start having fun RIGHT NOW!" Is that so wrong? To want new fighters to have fun??


It’s not wrong to want new people to have fun. But neither is it wrong for an organization to want to grow its membership instead of turning them away. You do understand that logic, right? Otherwise, how would there be Dagorhir chapters in Texas? Your line of logic would have been to point those souls towards Amtgard and the heck with what they wanted.

I wish that I could waive a magic wand and change minds, or to move those recalcitrant few out of influence on the Dagorhir side. But so too would we need to find a solution to those in Belegarth who regard anything Dagorhir related as evil. Like Anastasia said, those of us out West aren’t playing those games – there are few enough of us of any game to be worried about that junk. The Dagorhir vets who helped start my local chapter all have attended Belegarth and Amtgard events and had great times. And we’re encouraging our neighbors to come to our event (advertised here too, thank you very much).
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby The Great Gigsby » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:52 pm

Image

Dedric wrote:Peter, that's total horsesh*t. I challenge you to come to Rag and call them out on it. Heck, find ME, and I'll go with you and call them out on it.
Please tell me this is some briliant new strategy to get people to Rag.

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Arrakis » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:13 pm

Mirelle wrote:
Arrakis wrote:
Beyond that, what about just saying, "Hey, Peter's gonna be at Olympics and he's a beast; learn from him"? Why is that a bannable offense?

/ramble


Actually that is not a bannable offense, bo could have done just that. It's the fact that Peter went around a set ban to post on the forum that caused the ban.



That's an insanely pedantic line of reasoning and no one but a vindictive prig or an OCD rules lawyer would have anything to do with such ridiculous "logic".
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Dedric » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:36 pm

Giggles wrote:Please tell me this is some briliant new strategy to get people to Rag.

"Come to Ragnarok, where you can call people out for snubbing you. It's awesome!"


It is! And I find that people will argue endlessly on the Internet, but when confronted and looking into your eyes, will give you a very different and much more honest appraisal of the matter.

I don't think I have anything to take up with anyone at Rag at the moment. Other than joining whatever sort of protest Dev has of Laithe's ridiculous abuse of the rules as Head Weapons Checker (read: God Almighty, giver of Dagorhir rules). But if I do, I'll take it up there, rather than by e-mail. Short, to the point, and with no misconceptions due to the fact that people can't seem to actually READ what I write and understand it.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby p_quick » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:56 am

Mirelle wrote:
Arrakis wrote:
Beyond that, what about just saying, "Hey, Peter's gonna be at Olympics and he's a beast; learn from him"? Why is that a bannable offense?

/ramble


Actually that is not a bannable offense, bo could have done just that. It's the fact that Peter went around a set ban to post on the forum that caused the ban.


First off your statement is incorrect because i never broke the rules of the forum to get my original banning. If i had i assure you i would not raise a stink about it on the bel forum.

Blackhawk wrote:... I suggest that if you find yourself banned from the Dag boards, that you simply come to these boards and get your fill of the ideas regarding foam fighting from the good people of Belegarth.


second, I came to the dag boards to help dag fighters get better. If you havn't noticed alot of what spyn and i teach is slowly finding its way into your game. alot of dag's better fighters use the "rogue grip" your fighting forum is filled with blockstrike, the stress of body mechanics (to swing harder), positioning, and preemptive thought processes. And people are almost getting it, but why read a book in the dark when you can have someone there to answer the questions that arise as you read?


My question to you is why would i put forth the effort to spread the knowledge that is coming into bel and bring it, also, into dag when your web board (the best way to spread information) bans me for no reason other then i'm a known bel fighter? that seems alot like dag doesn't want help from me or any other game, and certainly not from SKBC which is the collection of all the best fighters across the nation.

You yourself have said that dag is weaker then bel when it comes to "stick jocks" but you have a fighting forum, you have people who are willing and able to learn. why cut off information from them?

All i've done is tried to help Dag fighers. Ive never promoted any other game on your forum. Ive never broken any rules on your forum except listing my email address a long while back which was a mistake and i caught/fixed it as soon as i relaxed i'd made that mistake.

If i had posted information about bel events or said bel is better then i would never have raised a stink about being ban. but i never did any of those things. so what gives?

Why turn away the people that can help your game become more then it is?

BH you say you don't understand why i'd want to be on your forum, its not because "i want something i can't have" Its because i see how your game is full of good people who are worth my time, and effort, i want to spread the knowledge that i've been lucky enough to acquire. I think you have miss understood me from the very beginning. I would very much like to sit down with you at O's, spar, and have a chance to talk more then we did at last years O's.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby p_quick » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:59 am

Dedric wrote:
I don't think I have anything to take up with anyone at Rag at the moment. Other than joining whatever sort of protest Dev has of Laithe's ridiculous abuse of the rules as Head Weapons Checker (read: God Almighty, giver of Dagorhir rules). But if I do, I'll take it up there, rather than by e-mail. Short, to the point, and with no misconceptions due to the fact that people can't seem to actually READ what I write and understand it.


Dedric, you have been perfectly level headed about all of this. I'm very impressed by the thought and time you've put into your responses to this thread. My hat is off to you
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Blackhawk » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:01 am

p_quick wrote:
BH you say you don't understand why i'd want to be on your forum, its not because "i want something i can't have" Its because i see how your game is full of good people who are worth my time, and effort, i want to spread the knowledge that i've been lucky enough to acquire. I think you have miss understood me from the very beginning. I would very much like to sit down with you at O's, spar, and have a chance to talk more then we did at last years O's.


This sounds like a great idea, I look forward to it. Face to face always trumps the internet for me.

And if I might ask, how long ago were you banned?

Speed does not equal intense. Realistic, brutal, savage, simulated dark age combat is intense. You want speed, go run track!!

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby p_quick » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:02 am

i was banned about a year ago.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Blackhawk » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:14 am

Send me an e-mail blackhawk@dagorhir.com
I'll try to hunt down some answers for you. No promises, I did not get very far last time I tried.

Speed does not equal intense. Realistic, brutal, savage, simulated dark age combat is intense. You want speed, go run track!!

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Wisp » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:10 am

Just realized Olympics is the weekend of May 1st. Thats our Principality Coronation and I'm stepping up as the Monarch. Keonee, Konrad and I won't be able to make the tourney. Thats three of us worth points that won't be there. Grrrrrrrrr.

Oh well, next up will be Gates of Summer I guess.

Sumbitch. *grumble grumble grumble*

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Loptr » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:35 am

Wisp wrote: Principality Coronation and I'm stepping up as the Monarch.
Will


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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Wisp » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:40 am

Oh believe me, there are Doves crying.

buwahahahahahha :devil:

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Thorin » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:01 am

Sweet! I'm banned too because I share the same ISP with Peter.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Satanaka » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:39 am

No- they just never did like you Thorin....

:devil:



Thorin wrote:Sweet! I'm banned too because I share the same ISP with Peter.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Angmarth » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:59 pm

Biggest difference between Belegarth and Dagorhir is that Belegarth has turned over its leadership several times to a younger generation, which leads to healing old wounds. Dagorhir seems to be attempting to turn its leadership into liches.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Rune xl » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:48 pm

Better for the RP fighters that way Angmarth. :) I mean, why play the game if we dont have liches to kill?


Sorry to hear about that conflicting dates for the O's Will. Mittelmarch is a dag chapter who loves them some crossgaming. More fighters is more fighting.
Hope to see some of your guys out there.

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Solusar » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:31 pm

Blackhawk wrote:Send me an e-mail blackhawk@dagorhir.com
I'll try to hunt down some answers for you. No promises, I did not get very far last time I tried.


Why am I still banned Blackhawk? Even after being banned I've remained a mostly loyal Dagorhir fighter and participant, even making a **** bad * updatable map that I still maintain. What have I done wrong lately?
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby warwell » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:40 pm

I strenuously disagree with some of the points made by Kyrax.

He states: "But neither is it wrong for an organization to want to grow its membership instead of turning them away."

Of course, this assumes that membership is a zero-sum game and that each organization has to fight tooth-and-nail to gain members. Competitively, Dag and Bel are like Coke and Pepsi fighting for market share. A gain for one typically means a loss for the others. I contend that the foam fighting hobby is not a zero sum game but that all organizations will gain from the expansion of the hobby as a whole. Because many people are willing to cross-game, a Bel expansion can create more people attending Dag events, and vice versa. The situation is similar to sports leagues, like MLB or the NFL. The competing leagues (AL/NL, AFL/NFL found that cooperation was more beneficial to the expansion of popularity of both leagues, Thus we have the World Series and Super Bowl.

Also, I seriously question Kyrax's implication that "the volume of vitriol" on these boards further hampers cooperation by reinforcing the view that Belegarth is a threat. Belegarth is a threat because some of its members seek openness and cooperation? That just sounds like paranoia to me. Also, I doubt that there are many in Belegarth "who regard anything Dagorhir related as evil." The impression I have is that it is a few from Dagorhir who feel that way. Furthermore, if the Dagorhir board ended its draconian censorship, I believe that rants like this one would end. Finally, let it be know that some, if not many, Dagorhir members would agree with Belegarth on this issue. In fact, I am the leader of a Dagorhir realm (Dragon Coast in S Florida) and I heartily agree with the Belegarth members who argue against the censorship on the Dag boards.

Kyrax, if you are serious about changing minds, I challenge you to put forth the effort to convince the Dag board to change. Then we will see how Belegarth responds. If the rest of the people of Belegarth are anything like my neighbors from the Lowlands, I think you will see a new era of cooperation that can help this hobby grow.

Yours in service,
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Blackhawk » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:56 pm

Solusar wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:Send me an e-mail blackhawk@dagorhir.com
I'll try to hunt down some answers for you. No promises, I did not get very far last time I tried.


Why am I still banned Blackhawk? Even after being banned I've remained a mostly loyal Dagorhir fighter and participant, even making a **** bad * updatable map that I still maintain. What have I done wrong lately?


If there is one person I feel strongly should be given one more chance, it's you. The fact that you are still banned, angers me. When I unbanned you, I learned that mods only have the power to unban the people they themselves, banned. And while I still take every opportunity I get, to convince the person who banned you to lift it. I have since been unsuccessful. I was told that despite numerous chances and warnings, you left the moderator at the time no other choice but to ban you.
*hangs head*
My power is limited. Dammit!!

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Solusar » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:28 pm

That was like six years ago. Why can't he let it go? Maybe the same reason he can't let go of all the members his game lost.
It's all good duder. We're still friends and ****. I look forward to stabbing you at the next most convenient local.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Blackhawk » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:06 pm

Solusar wrote:That was like six years ago. Why can't he let it go? Maybe the same reason he can't let go of all the members his game lost.
It's all good duder. We're still friends and ****. I look forward to stabbing you at the next most convenient local.


Sorry bra. I will continue to plead your case. i am not sure i want to fight you though, you beat me up pretty bad last time. Although i think the sun was in my eyes, or I had some sort of cramp, or a splinter, or a gnat in my ear. I'll think of something. Maybe you just got lucky, IDK but next time, I'll kill you fer sure.

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Blackhawk » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:03 pm

For those who don"t know me, I can be seen best marching towards my enemies at 2:07 in this vid. I am kind of a big guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qCCWJJlxr4

The Dag boards would delete this.

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Wisp » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:46 pm

Rune xl wrote:Sorry to hear about that conflicting dates for the O's Will. Mittelmarch is a dag chapter who loves them some crossgaming. More fighters is more fighting.
Hope to see some of your guys out there.

Rune


Oh I know Rune. Everyone I've met from Mittlemarch are extremely awesome people. I really love the Dag crew from Indy. I'm sure there will be a lot of Rising Winds folk at the Olympics. If it weren't my own Coronation, I'd skip it and be there for sure. It was really high on my hit list this year for events. Oh well. See ya at Gates of Summer maybe?

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Dedric » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:27 am

Blackhawk wrote:The Dag boards would delete this.


What? Why? It doesn't violate the rules?
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby varadin » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:36 am

Dedric wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:The Dag boards would delete this.


What? Why? It doesn't violate the rules?


Its a Dag video on the Bele boards, If yo were to post a video of Okfest or say WPO(i did) on the dag boards, it gets deleted almost immediately.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Sindaric » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:57 am

Satanaka wrote:WHAT???

Sindaric Said: "By boycotting you'll only be furthering the big brother like qualities of dagorhir. By attending you'll be giving.....

...Dagorhir- your $$$ Money$$$.

Sindaric Said: Don't be a part of the problem be a part of the solution.

Solution? YOU don't even have any say or effect with your own group BUT you want Belegarth members to support your event? No matter that they get banned for no reason as well as they get their weapons failed for no REAL reason??? Hmmmmmmmm...... Yeah- that don't seem very practical.


I'm not sure what banning you're referring to, but if it is to the Dagorhir boards, I've washed my hands of them. As for the weapons failing, I think that it may be getting exaggerated. I myself have fought with nothing but Edhellen weapons for the past four years, and have never had a problem getting them passed at dag events. Also I would say at least 60% my realm (Eryndor) fights with Edhellen weapons, and generally gets them passed with out an issue.

When I say be a part of the solution I think there might be some confusion. What I'm saying is come out, meet some of the newer generations of dag. Show them that there are some really cool people involved with other games. Spar, chat, hell just drink beer. I think by hanging out and just doing some chilling and fighting we can help start to bring down the wall dividing some areas of foam fighting.
Its the younger generations of Dagorhir that will eventually be making the decision regarding their game. By coming out to Rag and just having some fun and meeting some people you'll be widening the foam fighting view of a new generation. When the members of this new generation are the ones making the decisions it is my hope that because they encountered some awesome fighter from other games, their decisions will help to further foam fighting/crossover gaming, not hinder it.

I hope that helped clear up some confusion. I'd like to make it clear that most Dagorhirim are out to just have a good time, it matters very little to them what game you call home. If you do make it out to Rag, which I hope you do, come find me I'll be camped with Eryndor. I'd love to chat and do some sparring, and my personal favorite drink a beer.

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Angmarth » Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:00 pm

Sindaric,

What you say is true. Unfortunately there isn't any visible end to the current leadership. It would benefit your arguement if some of the current leaders would step aside for a new generation. It is hard entrusting your future to individuals who are younger than you are, but it can be productive. I was very skeptical of our last president Gorloc, and I did not vote for him the first time around. However, he impressed me and I was one of his most vocal supporters when he ran for a second term. This is the change that Dagorhir needs to have. Without it, at some point, it will cause problems that can not be mitigated or solved.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Kyrax » Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:30 pm

warwell wrote:I strenuously disagree with some of the points made by Kyrax.

He states: "But neither is it wrong for an organization to want to grow its membership instead of turning them away."

Of course, this assumes that membership is a zero-sum game and that each organization has to fight tooth-and-nail to gain members. Competitively, Dag and Bel are like Coke and Pepsi fighting for market share. A gain for one typically means a loss for the others. I contend that the foam fighting hobby is not a zero sum game but that all organizations will gain from the expansion of the hobby as a whole. Because many people are willing to cross-game, a Bel expansion can create more people attending Dag events, and vice versa. The situation is similar to sports leagues, like MLB or the NFL. The competing leagues (AL/NL, AFL/NFL found that cooperation was more beneficial to the expansion of popularity of both leagues, Thus we have the World Series and Super Bowl.


Warwell, you’re assuming that someone smart enough to search the internet and find Dagorhir or Belegarth can’t continue that search and find other options, and there are dozens. I agree that there are some benefits of growth in general, but there are zero-sum elements: most of us only have so much time and so much money to spend on this hobby; and in some areas there’s only so many people who are potential recruits. You’re also ignoring the history between Dagorhir and Belegarth and the intense effort that was made to encourage local groups and people to pick sides (and that was a two-way street). As well as concerted poaching efforts by some individuals to redirect newcomers to the boards to Belegarth, not all of which are ancient history.

warwell wrote:Also, I seriously question Kyrax's implication that "the volume of vitriol" on these boards further hampers cooperation by reinforcing the view that Belegarth is a threat. Belegarth is a threat because some of its members seek openness and cooperation? That just sounds like paranoia to me. Also, I doubt that there are many in Belegarth "who regard anything Dagorhir related as evil." The impression I have is that it is a few from Dagorhir who feel that way. Furthermore, if the Dagorhir board ended its draconian censorship, I believe that rants like this one would end. Finally, let it be know that some, if not many, Dagorhir members would agree with Belegarth on this issue. In fact, I am the leader of a Dagorhir realm (Dragon Coast in S Florida) and I heartily agree with the Belegarth members who argue against the censorship on the Dag boards.


Warwell, at least you don’t question that there is a lot of vitriol on this board and its forums aimed at Dagorhir. It is that vitriol that creates a perception that much of the early enmity between Belegarth’s founders and Dagorhir continues from this side of the fence. And it is that perception, plus silliness like banned people posting on those boards, getting re-banned and then * about it here that reinforces those opinions. I’m not saying that the perception is true, or that Belegarth as a group has some kind of agenda – I wouldn’t bother being here if I did. What I’m trying to explain is how all of this is perceived. Not could be, but is. And why I feel that repetitions of “This Thread again” as Giggles puts it, is harmful to efforts to ease tensions and maybe try to bring these groups closer together. Which is the only reason I bother posting in these threads.

warwell wrote: Kyrax, if you are serious about changing minds, I challenge you to put forth the effort to convince the Dag board to change. Then we will see how Belegarth responds. If the rest of the people of Belegarth are anything like my neighbors from the Lowlands, I think you will see a new era of cooperation that can help this hobby grow.


I know you’re relatively new Warwell, and I do appreciate the effort. But if you’d read more than one post in one thread, you’ve realized I’ve been doing that for almost a decade now. I opposed the split as it was happening and tried to stop it. I failed. Since then I’ve kept in touch on both sides, attending events where I can, and been one of a number of veteran Dagorhirrim who’ve spoken truth to power – to both sides. And I’ve caught more than my share of grief over it, again from both sides.

So no, no thanks. I’m not interested in playing with politics or using my rare vacation time to tilt at windmills. Nor do I care to burn bridges with folks I’ve known for upwards of 20 years. The members of the DBGA board know my opinions on this subject, as does at least some of Belegarth leadership. My point in responding to one hotheaded post earlier was to again remind the folks reading that threads like this, one of dozens over the years on the Belegarth boards are counter-productive. I stand by that assertion.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Arrakis » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:03 pm

Shut up, Kyrax. You're apparently some kind of moderator, so I can't block you and ignore your posts more easily, so if you could keep the CRAZY to a minimum, that'd be awesome.

All my loathing,
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PS: Bel never kicks Realms out for wanting to publicly play more than one game. **** your "two-way street".
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Kyrax » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:12 pm

Love you too 'Rrakis. And don't forget to take your meds today.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is and has been a two way street. More trash gets talked here about Dagorhir than there about Belegarth and Amtgard combined. But my reference was more of a historical nature, back to the era of the split and the dark days that followed. Things are better now, in general. But there are thorns, like these threads, that get in the way of that.

And to ignore my posts, just skip 'em. I wish that I could do the same when you're off the deep end. The sad thing is that some of the time you aren't, and you can actually be positive and constructive. What can we do to get the good Arrakis back more often?

Now I'm off to go build some swords and then go out and have some fun this weekend: helping to run a Women-only Century ride for 3000 ladies; Go to my new chapter's practice; then on Sunday to help run a Race hosted by a women's cycling team. Busy, Busy. And I need to help my chapter host our camping event, one where we're looking to bring together folks from several local branches of different groups. And I'm guessing that we won't hear a word of politics there - bliss!
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby The Great Gigsby » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:29 pm

All you Dagorhirrim need to stop apologizing for the way things are and take ownership right now. It's so irritating to hear,

"Oh, sorry man! You shouldn't have been banned. The moderation policies are way too anal but it's out of my hands."

"I'm sorry your weapons got failed by some * at our event. If you had just talked to me, then we could've straightened things out and you could have had a much better event."

"Yeah, the rules are pretty funky in some places, but that's just the way things are."

---

Kyrax, you're right about so many things, but when you start spinning in these threads, you're just wrong wrong wrong. It's funny, I've seen so many people shift their opinion about Bel/Dag and yet, you throw up the same defenses time and time again. I know you're old and ****, but try to see where all these points being made are coming from before you reactively shoot them down.

I encourage all of you to dig through the archives on the dagorhir forums for a couple of hours. Yeah, it was awhile ago, but there's so much more stupid, counter-productive rhetoric there (primarily from the dagorhir leadership) than you'll ever likely see here, because, guess what? The wound is healing whether you like it or not. These threads are a part of that process.

And have fun with your bike thingy. I'm going to be drumming at a sustainable living workshop, volunteering for the day of silence/day of presence, and then playing rehearsal piano for a grassroots theatre company. Come swing by Lacey, WA on Sunday, because I'll be crossgaming with my local Amtgard chapter (that makes me immune to criticism). If you don't find me and hit me with a padded stick at Western Wars, it means you're a keyboard-jockeying noob and that I'm a real man and I have more fun than you. :roll:
-Giggles

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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Freki » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:09 pm

I don't know if this had been said, but did anyone else notice the arrows were penny corring alot of of people...I got a sick shiner out of it on the second to last day of fighting.
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Favorite Fighting Styles: Single blue, sword and board, Spear

Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Dedric » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:46 pm

Giggles, what are we SUPPOSED to say? Unfortunately, there is a whole bureaucratic system in place that's been there for a long time, and we can't just make it go away by wishing for it.

I've been very vocal about my opinions, here, in e-mails to the DBGA admins (that you've never seen), and even on the Dag boards (for which a ban was threatened by more than one admin more than once). But the fact remains that I don't get a vote.

Sometimes, "sorry that happened to you, better luck next time," is the best thing we can say. Most people have fun at Dag events. If you're right and willing to appeal your points, almost all the douchebaggery can be cut out (except that which is coming from the top).

While the official DBGA running of the web board in the past has been straight out of Mein Kampf, it's getting better, but it's a process. And at events, I've never seen that kind of behaviour.

A common theme by the anti-DBGA-leadership on this board has been that we have to take control and do something about it. So this is your chance to be constructive. Scores, maybe hundreds of people are going to read this post. They'll see your advice, and probably agree that the new ways are better than the old.

So tell us. HOW do we "take control" of Dag? HOW do we make Dag a more cross-gaming-friendly organization?

P.S. Arrakis, I don't know what crawled up your * and died, but way to make Belegrim look like farthearts. Kyrax made some good points, try and be constructive, just a bit, k? K.
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Freki » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:56 pm

no worries, it one of my most fond memories of my first epic nat'l event w/ bladestorm. and meeting the rest of the guys at DA camp. I know things like that are going to happen, I was just amking a statement. again it's all good
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Tor » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:26 pm

Psh.

All the Dag board is a bunch of pathetic souls tippy-toeing around in their own web board wondering when the ban hammer will drop, along with Greymael/Dominus posting Huzzah and some **** while a bunch of syncophants do their * best to verbally polish their knobs after every golden turd post.

Thanks, I'll pass.

P.S. Kyrax is my hero. And though we disagree on this, he's still my favorite geriatric 9 toed archer...
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Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)

Postby Tor » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:32 pm

Besides, which board has this?

Image

Case closed.
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