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 Post subject: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:14 pm 
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In anticipation of the release of my forthcoming book Battle Gaming: The New American Sport, the rule set used in the book has been published on http://www.openbattlegaming.net. Only the rules of combat have been published, the rules for padded weapons and armor used with padded weapons will follow shortly.

I have entered the last sprint for finishing the book - mostly all layout design and print formatting stuff. But I have little time to answer questions. Many of the questions about rules interpretation have been answered in the book. I will check back periodically to read your feedback.

Dave Graham


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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:11 pm 
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Why are you doing this? Are there not enough random LARPs in the universe that you felt compelled to start a new one?


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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:24 pm 
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Not to be mean, but I was kind of thinking the same thing. Are these rules like a Dag/Bel/Amt hybrid? If someone is a Bel fighter and they invite people who normally play by these rules to their events, is it going to be extremely compatible? Honestly, I feel up to my armpits in other battle games and LARPS where I am. For every 4 Dag/Bel groups we have, we have another 20 "other" gamer groups. I love hosting big events, but when everyone plays under different rules, I have a lot of trouble getting people all on the same page, and I know they are interested in Bel fighting (or at least large battles), or they wouldn't come. However, if we encourage the development of new "systems" (especially considering that Dag or Bel have very well worked out ones already) it seems that we legitimize everyone who just keep making "home brews."

If the intention of your book is to legitimize, popularize, and monetize your own homebrew, grrrr... However, if you are trying to set up a basic set of rules for everyone that would make cross gaming easier between Bel/Dag and others, I would like to know how you think your texts accomplish this.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:50 am 
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Just a quick note about goals.

The book is not about standardization of Game Play, the book is about standardization of terminology. The book actually encourages more homebrew. I include a lot of concepts in OBG and say basically, take it or leaving it. Use what works for you and your friends.

On a national BBS like this there will be a tendency to be a lot of people whow are looking for standardization. But if you look at the demographics of battle gaming some 90% of players never play outside their local town. Currently here in Fort Collins I estimate about 50% of those swinging foam swords belong to no national group.

For example, I found a group of about 10 kids down at one park last summer while on my lunch walk, they had picked up Edhellen swords at the Colorado Medieval Festival and were playing their own home brew. I then later I met up with the a home school group that was playing by Dagorhir rules with some personal modifications, this group had no interest in actually interacting with the local Dagorhir chapter. Then there was yet another Dagorhir like group that turned up about two weeks ago. These guys were out of high school (where they started fighting). They had fought with the local Dagorhir Chapter, but was not so interested in that. Instead they were experimenting with LARP stuff and were mixing it up.

Although lots of people on this board would say, go out and recruit these people into Belegarth. I on the other hand say give these diverse groups a framework of common terminology so they can interact if they choose, but do not cut off the innovations and creativity that makes their game play unique. The OBG was published under the OGL to encourage people to extend it and create home brew.

The key I was trying to achieve was common terminology. So if I attend a homebrew and they say "We use extended armor, improved limbs, crushed limbs, pierced limbs, no light weapons, the buttocks sub zone is part of the leg target zone, and we have some custom player classes." I know instantly how to interpret their rules. BTW if you study the rules you will see that statement will allow a person familiar with the rules to quickly immerse themselves in Darkon.

To visit a homebrew group and have them say "We play magic switch, head pelting, basic armor, pierced limbs, push thrust, slung shields, one of multiple targets, no light weapons, player classes of warrior and archer only, and humans only." Might elicit the response "Oh, you play like Belegarth."

So my goal is not about everyone playing the same game, it is more about allowing people to share battle gaming concepts and scenarios in a common language. I wish to foster innovation in battle gaming. Part of the innovation is being able to share battle scenarios via the internet. With the common terminology it is easy to say things like, "This is a great scenario but for it to work make sure there is an abundance of twirling weapons on the field."

Hope this helps to explain the why.


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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:56 am 
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I do see where you are coming from for the most part, and I encourage the effort. I've not got a chance to fully read the entire rules set yet. I did open it up and browse it quickly and had a couple of thoughts that lept off the screen at me. I'll save those for a full review later but I will comment on two of biggest parts...

This read like a Dag clone. I hate that 1.1.0 format Dag and Bel is in. It's like reading the back of a bottle checking for ingrediants. Bleh.

Second, is the OGL really necessary? Why the WotC OGL in particular? Do they have some sort of hold on the concept? What I'm asking is, why did you include that and not just come up with your own agreement?

I'd really be interested in reading your book. I do like the idea your pushing, so I hope it works out!

Will

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:08 am 
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No it does not. You are very confusing.
Or confused, I can't tell which.
I've played several diffent types of games. I've written lots of rules, ****, whole game systems. I don't know what your talking about.
I really don't think you can come along after the fact and invent terminology for exsisting groups to use.
Quote:
To visit a homebrew group and have them say "We play magic switch, head pelting, basic armor, pierced limbs, push thrust, slung shields, one of multiple targets, no light weapons, player classes of warrior and archer only, and humans only." Might elicit the response "Oh, you play like Belegarth."

This doesn't describe Bel to me in any way. If you said this to me when I wanted to fight in your park, I would NOT reply,"Oh, you play like Bel."I would say, "whatever, man, sounds confusing." And they I'd say, "how many hits till I'm dead? How many till the bad guys are dead? Cool." That's about all it take to learn to play with a different group. Oh and, " how hard can I hit 'em?"
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:19 am 
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Seriously......
So I open your rulesget to rule 2. something and voila I get this warning

The firewall has blocked a Trojan on your computer from connecting to the Internet. We recommend that you scan your computer for other threats.

About this Program
Program: Adobe Updater
Location: C:blah blah blah Adobe\AdobeUpdater.exe

Trojan horses appear to be legitimate programs but can disrupt, damage, or provide unauthorized access on your computer.


I want to thank you for your efforts. There are others out there creating modified crossgaming rulesets that I can trust.

You have made my blocked list. Have a lovely day.

Loptr

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:08 am 
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I'm going to have to agree with FB on this one. I really don't think this is necessary.

It seems to me that you're trying to make GRPS for boffers. The real advantage of GRPS when it came out was that it provided rules for anything and everything, so you could have your barbarian shooting blasters at cyborg ninjas from the back of an alien dragon. The point was that it both connected multiple existing niches and also created its own.

That's really not necessary for foam fighting groups. Despite multiple different variations on the theme, they're all basically the same: Hit each other with safe weapons (made safe by foam, lighter hits, armor, etc.) until one of you is dead. The inclusion of varying amounts of "magic" and "monsters" from Amtgard (LARP Lite) to hard core LARPing is just layered on top of it. The core of it is still just running around in your back yard fighting with toy swords, and there's really only so much you can do with that.

Unless you're getting seriously into the LARP side of this stuff, there's really no need at all to complicate it further. Like FB said,

Forkbeard wrote:
And they I'd say, "how many hits till I'm dead? How many till the bad guys are dead? Cool." That's about all it take to learn to play with a different group. Oh and, " how hard can I hit 'em?"


You're not going to need to know more than how hard a legal hit can be, where you can hit, and how many hits it takes to kill somebody, and 80% or more of that is going to be the same from group to group. Unlike GRPS, there's no niche you're filling, here. For the most part, the different fighting systems already out there aren't incompatible at all.

So, like I said, unless you're wanting to develop a new way to LARP, I just don't see the need for this.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:06 am 
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I started reading the set in full and got not quite to 1/2 way before giving up. You can skip to my final paragraph in BOLD at the bottom if you want my bottom line. I’ll include the notes as I wrote them while reading.

Under 2.3 TAG- you state it is a strike that qualifies to deliver damage to a target zone.

Under 2.7 Clean Strike - You define what a good shot is and state that it results in a TAG (2.3).

I’d wipe out 2.3 and just go with 2.7.

Under 2.12 you define Striking too hard. Then in 2.13 you define striking too lightly, but you state there is no lower limit for strike power but each organization can define additional minimum requirement for strike contact. You’r definition for what a clean strike under 2.7 is very clear. Your definition of noticeable contact under 2.13 is also very clear. You have set a very unclear bar for the additional minimums each organization can regulate to as it is capped under your 2.12 rule. As is true in Bel and some Dag chapters, undue pain and hitting too hard are subjective. This is basically confusing and looks to me like your just adding extra stuff to try and cover all the groups. My suggestion is to wipe out all this extra definitions and go with what a clean strike is and what noticeable force is. This would still apply to an unarmored or armored player as your definition is very clear and allows players to still call light.

Section 2.17 is basically anviling defined. I think it’s too much. There are quite a few shots in Amtgard that blocked with effective technique that could fall into this category that I would not consider Anviling in any way shape or form but would fall into this. I don’t have any suggestion on how to clean this up but I think it’s required.

3.2 covers the head zone for target location. I’m not a fan of head legal targets in boffer groups because it is a mass issue and when you start dealing with groups that want to push minimum weight requirements and then figure in some of the obscene weapons of mass, there is no safe way to do that. An Edhellen Red swung at full force is gonna be bad news when landing on the side of the head intentionally regardless of what type of helmet or neck protection you have on. This should be cut out entirely and replaced with Head is off limits. I doubt this has had any type of play testing at all and is ridiculous.

3.3 is the arm zone and includes open hand. 3.4 is hand with weapon. Not really needed as this could be covered under 3.3

3.1 defines hit points as the number of damage points that a target zone may take before receiving a mortal wound. 3.5 lists Torso zone as having 1/2 hit points. Are there weapons that deal less than 1 pt of damage? If so why?

3.6 Leg and all its sub-zones. Why all the sub-zones? Is this for armor purposes? Which makes me wonder about how your doing armor. If I have a leg greave on my lower leg, but it doesn’t actually cover my knee, will my knee still benefit from that protection because I have armor techincally in that sub zone?


3.6.5 and 3.7 Foot in air vs foot on ground... again, like the open hand, not needed.


4.0 Wounds section is garbage. Way too much. Get rid of the light wounds vs mortal wounds vs death wounds and severed limbs. Amtgard/Bel/Dag all three have this defined in a much easier process. Go with that. Especially the mortal wound 10 minute death count. Just... clunky. Don’t like it.

Also, under 4.1.2 you are enforcing that anything held must be dropped. This does not allow for the “magic switch” of Amtgard and Bel which will result in more deaths than not. In Dag people might actually be able to pull off dropping their weapon and not having that be a death sentence, but not so much in other games. Its one of those things that game mechanics have to sacrifice reality for playability.

Section 5 Weapons is a mess. You have a lot of definitions of what each part of the weapon is, there is no rules for how to construct these weapons, what minimums are etc. but then later give light and heavy classifications for weapons that don’t meat minimums or are twice normal that deal extra damage... in short... HUH? At this point in the document, you have lost my interest. The cutting/cleaving/bonking/clobbering/etc additional ways to deal damage with my non-defined weapons is also too much. I do not see how this is adding to your stated goal of making cross-terminology easier at all. This is just... fluff.


At this point, I’m going to stop reading and make a suggestion. If you are going to have this level of depth to this ruleset (which is fine to do), you need to do it in a format that is not the Dag’O’Bel format. This is just conflicting and confusing and unusable to me. I don’t even care to continue reading after having gotten through the weapon section and up to the Armor section as I can briefly glance at it and tell it’s just adding that much more confusion to the mix for me. Bel and Dag’s format works because they are going for a much less involved set of basics. Even the MCS system for Lord of War uses that format because it’s easier. It appears to me that you went with this because its probably what you are used to. I’d advise to scrap it all and start over with how you present it if thats what you want to do. I can see some good ideas in your mechanics but as presented, I wouldn’t want to make use of them. Now, if it were in more of a standard LARP game book format, it would be easier to swallow. Especially with your addition of classes and abilities... yeah man, sorry, but this needs to be sent back to the drawing board.

To be perfectly clear, I don't have issue with the complexities of this set. Complexity in a game is a matter of taste and I can understand that with this set you can include or exclude as you like, but this is not the way to present it and have anyone make heads or tails of it. For bringing a generic set of rules to battlegames as opposed to LARP games this is not the way to go. Expand it and make it into something more like a GURPS book or even a LARP edition like NERO.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:18 am 
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Looks like you're trying to make money coming up with a new LARP-system and selling it to people who are ALREADY playing established games and don't really want to know what you have decided you'd like to call "armor only stops one hit" or whatever. Quit trying to jack other peoples' ideas. Our rules format IS, in fact, copyrighted.

GTFO and, also, Cease & Desist.


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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:47 am 
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Sooo, when all is said and done, I guess my biggest question is why the hell would I ~buy~ a book full of rules I can get for ~free~ on-line?

I hope you are not planning on calling this your "intellectual property" like Dag and then trying to sue us all for using "your rules". Also I wouldn't put the Dagorhir name on anything you do without asking them first, or you'll be on the recieveing end of their lawyers.

Also from the WotC OGL: "5.Representation of Authority to Contribute: If You are contributing original material as Open Game Content, You represent that Your Contributions are Your original creation and/or You have sufficient rights to grant the rights conveyed by this License."

I know Dag and Bel have their rulesets Copyrighted, I would assume Amt, Nero, and Darkon do as well. These rules are not your "original" creation, have you obtained rights to contribute this as Open Game Content? I remember nothing like this coming through Belegarth War Council.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:16 am 
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I think it would be best, if you want our help, to tell us exactly what your motivation is.
It looks like your either starting a whole new game just like Bel-Dag-Amt-whatnot or your setting yourself up as owner of the ideas we all enjoy the use of for your future profit.
Am I wrong, Dude?
I got this from your site:
Quote:
Written by Dave Graham (SA)
Sunday, 10 January 2010 07:38
Future home of the Open Battle Gaming™ System community of players.

The community will open in April of 2010 after the March publishing of the new book Battle Gaming: The New American Sport by Battle Game Sports and Hobbies, LLC.

Future plans include:

· Forum for discussion of the Warrior Code™ Open Battle Gaming System
(Core Rules, Padded Weapon Guidelines, variances, game scenarios, etc.)

· New player meet-up listings

· Registry of battle game teams
(units, companies, households, and countries)

· Calendar of events

Keep checking back for updated information.


What is this "Warrior Code Battle Gaming System"? Your new game?
Where are these events going to be? And when, there are already events on pretty much every weekend of every month when you consider all the games your trying to pull players from.
So please help me understand why you are doing this. I really would like to understand what you think your going to get out of it.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:46 pm 
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I do not have time for a lot of discussion but I will try to hit on some of the key points I see.

1) There is a quick start guide in the book. The guide makes it pretty easy to get started.
2) It is GURPs like or D&D 3.5 like. Both have been very successful, no excuses for following in the footsteps of success.
4) Not planning to market it to any existing players. The book is target marketed at new players and almost the entire marketing budget is dedicated to marketing to Physical Education teaches.
5) Besides Dagorhir, Belegarth, and Amtgard influence, the system as written was heavily influenced by Darkon and Advanced Dagorhir (Brian Wiese's other Dagorhir creation for those who remember it.)
6) Requirements for the weapons, including weight requirements are in another document which I hope to have up soon.
7) Warrior Code is a marketing name only. The same way d20 was the marking name for third and 3.5 editions of Dungeons and Dragons.
8) I do plan to make money. I have no problem turning my hobby into my job. This is a dream that I share with many Americans.
9) Helmeted combat is included because I see it as being the norm for mainstream play where insurance companies are going to demand helmets.
10) Business plan includes working with insurance companies to get standard plans to help civic (school and recreation) groups get insurance to host battle game activities.
11) No plan to build any national organization structure. Others will need to organize clubs and events.
12) Two year goal is to bring 100,000 new players into the sport. I suspect about 1/2 of them will end up being regular attenders at various Dagorhir/Belegarth groups.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:53 pm 
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Aaaand this is officially a pipe-dream. I don't blame you for your efforts, and I sincerely hope you do well, but I doubt you'll get any kind of success out of this. And if you do, Dagorhir's lawyers will fillet you given half a chance.

seldon wrote:
12) Two year goal is to bring 100,000 new players into the sport. I suspect about 1/2 of them will end up being regular attenders at various Dagorhir/Belegarth groups.


If you come within a mile of accomplishing this, I personally would forgive any previous douchebaggery on your part, 100%. Good luck, you're gonna need it.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:35 pm 
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Arrakis wrote:
Our rules format IS, in fact, copyrighted.
I thought the Belegarth rules were copylefted?

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:35 pm 
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Yeah, you're what I thought.
A shark trying to eat off our comunity.
Sorry dude, I can't help you.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:16 pm 
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How in gods name are you gonna get 100,000 people into MCS's in general? Let alone these two? I mean, SCA only has like what 32,000? We only have around the 5-10,000 mark (dag/bel)? I appreciate it, but really you are gonna need some super-duper advertising to get 100,000 random people to: 1) buy your book. 2) read it. 3) finish it. 4) find a group and join up.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:24 pm 
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I agree with forkbeard. After reading all the posts in here, it's just a ploy to make money and another MCS system that reads like programing a old school VCR

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Giggles wrote:
Arrakis wrote:
Our rules format IS, in fact, copyrighted.
I thought the Belegarth rules were copylefted?


It's written down; it's protected work under U.S. Copyright Law. I'm not sure what licensing we're using right now. I like the GPL, personally.


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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:29 pm 
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Even if you got 1/1000th of your recruiting goals, the rules set you developed can mean that groups will be playing very different games from one another. Even Bel/Dag realms vary from one to another, the way you have constructed it, I can only see them being the same group in name only.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:34 am 
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They'll also be alike in licencing agreement. And they'll be sued by the same lawyers when they try to break out of this guys world of *.
Coming into the MCS world through you, instead of normaly, will handicap new people badly. You're obviously going to look at these new people as "yours".

FB

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:54 am 
Slayer
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Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:24 pm
Posts: 1179
Location: Champaign, IL
Started Fighting: 18 Oct 2006
Realm: Numenor
Unit: The Amyr
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board
Whatever. Everyone's got some baggage from where they started. This guy doesn't seem any worse than Legion, or Aramithris, or Dominus, or ..... you get the idea. If he drags 50,000 new people into our game (which he won't), then it doesn't matter what kind of tool he acts like to get there.

Until then, ignoring him while he realizes the scope of what he's getting himself into will prove both enjoyable and satisfying.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:16 am 
Monkey
Monkey
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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:02 am
Posts: 150
Location: Bloomington, IN
Started Fighting: 10 Jun 2008
Realm: Rhovanion
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board
It just seems that this rule system isn't unique enough to really make any impact in a positive way: what part of the game is this particular variation enhancing? None, it seems.
And how would new fighters benefit from joining a sport full of people who only have only read about fighting, and have no experience with any other MCS whatsoever? Are you going to single-handedly train all of these 10,000 fighters, being the only experienced fighter who would be remotely interested in this?

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if you are the big tree, we are the small axe


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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:00 pm 
Grizzled Veteran
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Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:36 pm
Posts: 2330
Location: MUXLOVIA, Romeoville IL
Started Fighting: 01 Oct 2004
Realm: Muxlovia
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword and board
florentine
archery
someone should make foam fighting coffee table book.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:12 pm 
Backstabber
Backstabber
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Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:02 pm
Posts: 321
Location: Clarksville TN
Started Fighting: 14 Oct 2008
Realm: Dur-Demarion
Unit: BladeStorm
Favorite Fighting Styles: Single blue, sword and board, Spear
That is a stupendous idea, would the cover itself be foam??

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:28 pm 
Brute
Brute
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Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:36 am
Posts: 527
Location: SLC, UT
Realm: Acheron
Unit: Western Uruk-Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Greatsword
Glaive
Peregrine wrote:
someone should make foam fighting coffee table book.


I was under the impression that was what this book was going to be as opposed to recently revealed LARP Manual 2.0.

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High Council of the Western Uruk-Hai

Before you say anything, prepare to shut the **** up.


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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:58 pm 
Warning: Knows Math
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Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Posts: 4792
Location: near Newark, NJ
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Goldenvale+East Kingdom
Unit: Omega Company
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Magnus of the Red Hand wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
someone should make foam fighting coffee table book.


I was under the impression that was what this book was going to be as opposed to recently revealed LARP Manual 2.0.


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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:25 am 
Monkey
Monkey

Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:08 pm
Posts: 188
I can appreciate what you're trying to achieve here, but I think you may have fallen victim to the "Field of Dreams" myth.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:10 pm 
Warrior
Warrior

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:24 am
Posts: 716
Location: Champaign, IL
Started Fighting: 18 Jun 2007
Realm: Numenor
Unit: The Amyr
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board, Single Blue
Kevin Costner's a good actor?

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Graavish wrote:
it's not the weight of the weapon that makes for a solid hit, it's how much i don't like you when i'm swinging.

If they don't take it, then it wasn't sufficient.


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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:59 am 
Utter Bastard
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 4:48 pm
Posts: 5558
Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Viking Bastards
Favorite Fighting Styles: Death by Not Existing
Nah, that anyone would mistake Iowa for Heaven.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Battle Gaming Core Rules Published
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:20 am 
Grizzled Veteran
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Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:27 pm
Posts: 2039
Location: Irvine, CA
Started Fighting: 31 Aug 2001
Realm: Marshal of Anduril
Unit: Wardens
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword & Board, Extreme Taunting
:cry:

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