My Humble Apologies(Noticable Force in Dag)

[Athron]

Isk -- Is the goal of your comparison to compare the literal words inside the two rules books, or is it to interpret the rules as they are used in practice to assist in the cross-gamers actual fighting experience? I only ask because I believe that, depending on which goal you're pursuing, you would be driven to including different content in your materials. For example, if your goal is the former, it makes sense you're telling Alric that he's "wrong" and the MoA specifically says one thing... but if your goal is the latter, shouldn't you attend very closely to the experiences shared by Dag cross-gamers here who are trying to explain to you their *actual* Dagorhir experience?

If you have both goals simultaneously, things may be tricky for cross-gamers, as, for better or worse, the way Dagorhir is actually played by the overwhelming number of people is not consistent with the exact language in the existing MoA (which is another story, of course, but one that is already playing out across a gajillion threads, so no reason to revisit that here).

Appreciate the work you're doing, just my two cents.

[Alric]

There's a lot of cool dudes out there who don't enforce this, but some take it as being the same as "nope, not taking that shot", instead of "that was close, but it didn't hit me".

The thing is, I've never met someone who gave me as much as a funny look for calling garb, and I go to a lot of events (though all on the east coast). I've never met one of these 'some [who] take it as being the same as...' people, so I have trouble taking Dacian's statement as anything more than the internet paranoia that crops up frequently in any online community, where someone reads something (or hears it at RWC) and assumes that people's behavior is actually following the new wording. On the ground, at Dag events, it doesn't work this way (unless midwest Dagorhir is different on this than out here in the east).

I read FB's post this same way, too.

These things play out differently at real Dagorhir events than when you only read the rulebook.

[varadin]

Alric you are right there, things play out differently. But new groups who follow the rules to the T, who have been doing so for a while do have a problem with it. Midwest dagorhir doesn't have a lot of it but I know of 2 realms in ohio alone i have been yelled at for calling light in. I have seen it elsewhere too its not just an internet paranoia thing, while it is the minority it does exist.

[Isk]

You make a good point Athron. I have mostly tried to stick to the rules as they are written, but I am really trying to accomplish both goals. We have pointed out a couple of times in the thread associated with that comparison table that people should check with the local group to see how their interpretation works out.

Maybe, I ought to say where I personally am coming from here. I fought in the early nineties for about 4 years and then returned to the game February last year to discover this whole split nonsense had taken place. I have read extensively on why and who, etc. and have a pretty good idea how it all went down. I want us to move on and am trying to make the best of the current situation. Like Caretaker said, we really are still playing the same game and I want to make it as easy as possible for cross-gaming to occur. In all the fighting I have done with dag and bel people since coming back (only about 8 inter-realm events, 3 with dag groups), the variation from realm to realm easily exceeds the differences going from dag to bel (with the couple of equipment requirement exceptions). Western Dag peeps are pretty awesome in my experience.

[Caretaker]

You make a good point Athron. I have mostly tried to stick to the rules as they are written, but I am really trying to accomplish both goals. We have pointed out a couple of times in the thread associated with that comparison table that people should check with the local group to see how their interpretation works out.

Maybe, I ought to say where I personally am coming from here. I fought in the early nineties for about 4 years and then returned to the game February last year to discover this whole split nonsense had taken place. I have read extensively on why and who, etc. and have a pretty good idea how it all went down. I want us to move on and am trying to make the best of the current situation. Like Caretaker said, we really are still playing the same game and I want to make it as easy as possible for cross-gaming to occur. In all the fighting I have done with dag and bel people since coming back (only about 8 inter-realm events, 3 with dag groups), the variation from realm to realm easily exceeds the differences going from dag to bel (with the couple of equipment requirement exceptions). Western Dag peeps are pretty awesome in my experience.

I really respect this. I myself have been trying my hardest to have an influence on our units and keeping the peace so everyone can enjoy themselves and just have some fun. This topic was sent to me by someone who is just like you, who cares very much about the people in our games. He was worried that this was going to effect our experience with going to yestare next week. However, I was not real worried, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless we said so:p oops, i just did, lol.

St George is pretty cool too. We really enjoyed ourselves at WOR. And your indian food was amazing. If you ever need a partner in crime, let me know:D

Thank you as always Isk for your help and Information.

[Reverend]

As someone who can finally say he's cross-gamed, I'm glad I did so in the west. The Vegas guys were more than understanding in those few instances where the differences in my understanding of the rules didn't mesh with their interpretation.

Isk, your comparison really helped me and the rest of my crew out when we were prepping for the trip to Fools Raid.

Thanks for putting in all the work.

[Isk]

I'm glad to hear it, Rev. More cross-gaming!

[Dedric]

First of all, I HAVE told people I couldn't call garb. But I explained the spirit of the rule calmly, and called garb anyway, since the rules ALSO say a SOLID strike.

Isk, maybe you should use the letter of the law in the chart, along with a parenthetical statment. Such as:

Garb counts as hit in the rules (however the rules also require a substantial strike, and most fighters support only taking hits that would have penetrated the garb and struck solidly). That way both concepts are honored.

[varadin]

sufficient force is back as per RWC of rag 25.

[Dacian]

sufficient force is back as per RWC of rag 25.

*abundant cheers*

[Forkbeard]

I know. This is a great thing for Dagorhir.
I aplaud your good sense, Sirs.
FB

[Sir Anastasia]

And all across the land there was rejoicing.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

**** yeah.

Thrush
berserk

[Blackhawk]

Bout time!!

[Kyrax]

I know. This is a great thing for Dagorhir.
I aplaud your good sense, Sirs.
FB

Except for one lone vote holding out for "noticeable", everyone supported the "sufficient" wording.

[Forkbeard]

There ARE a few people talking about being against this over there.
That's just **** wierd to me.
They are saying this sufficent force wording will only make it so people can justify rhino hiding and people are just waiting for this change so they can cheat.
That's **** retarded(see BlackHawk, I'm being nice over there). NOT being allowed to call light on LIGHT hits is what this makes this game better than the light contact games.
Requiring sufficient force define who we are as fighters. I'm so glad you guys got that fixed. Things were drifting a little further apart than I liked.
FB

[Tiercel]

If you want to defeat the rule, why not construct a special * weapon that could never deliver a solid hit, and go legally kick * tapping with it at a Dag event until they get frustrated and change the rule back?

Just a thought.

[Slagar]

There are several weapons made specially, either wrapped in packing tape or using some other method, and built to sting more, so that you achieve a 'hard enough' hit without actually delivering the same amount of force (as measured objectively in newtons or whatever). The schools of thought vary a lot on this one, but the simple fact is that there are lots of methods for doing exactly what you're desrcibing, and most of them have seen the field by now.

Quite simply, though, you can't deliver sufficient force to me if you can't hit me, so that's the general goal for me. Anything else seems to be mostly small details. While I'm pretty strongly on the side of real, actual force, this just seems like nitpicking at some point. Meh. I'll continue to call light on hits that don't hit hard enough. If you can make a minweight sword sting bad enough to count on hits that would be light with other gear, and still make it well enough for it to pass, then I suppose I'll just learn to block better. Overall, it seems like our calibration is in a pretty good place for the time being.

[Blackhawk]

There ARE a few people talking about being against this over there.
That's just **** wierd to me.
They are saying this sufficent force wording will only make it so people can justify rhino hiding and people are just waiting for this change so they can cheat.
That's **** retarded(see BlackHawk, I'm being nice over there). NOT being allowed to call light on LIGHT hits is what this makes this game better than the light contact games.
Requiring sufficient force define who we are as fighters. I'm so glad you guys got that fixed. Things were drifting a little further apart than I liked.
FB

Thanks bro.
Also the rule was only briefly on the books as noticeable. Thank the gods. i just get sick and tired of our combat system being steered in the direction of Ampguard (sorry bout the spelling, I am used to seeing it like this *********), my feeling is if you want to fight like that, go there.

Softer weapons Harder hits!!!!

[Azgarehta]

Anything that is engineered to hit harder on a light shot should fail for hitting too hard on a hard shot at weapons check. There's a reason we crank them up to 11 on someone's safest hit location.

[Tiercel]

I was actually thinking more along the lines of having an absurdly large striking surface due to inflatable components of the weapon, or some other garbage way to give an unfair advantage to "tap" techniques. How about a banana scythe? Perhaps something with feathers (call them 'dragon scales' if they try to catch you on their "realistic" rule). Blatantly silly yet effective enough to beat their system.

Now that I'm looking at the rule itself, though, I think you're interpreting it in a way most would not. Below is what Dag's website posts as the current rule:

-------------
3.4.1 - Hits from hand-held weapons count when the weapon strikes solidly with
noticeable force. NOTE: what constitutes a "solid strike" is necessarily subjective and
thus relies on the honor of both the attacker and the person who is struck.
-------------

"Solid strike" isn't the same thing as a "tap" in my book- and if they make a point about focusing on "solid strike" instead of "noticeable" I think the change is cosmetic.

*};-

[Kyrax]

Tiercel - you're a few days late. See Varadin's post on Monday June 21st for the current rule.

[Forkbeard]

Catch yourself up, Terciel.
That is the rule we WERE talking about when this thread started.
The thread was about how it sucked, but was their bag to deal with.
The solution to the thread was that at Rag WC this year, the wording was changed BACK from "noticable force" to "sufficent force", as it should be.
You weird weapon ideas are stupid and wouldn't make anyone think anything except that your were weird.
I alos think your of base Slagar. A weapon that hits hard with only light force will fail at the high end in weapon check. Why wouldn't it?
The point is, better heads have prevailed over at the neighbors house(Dagorhir) and it looks like we'll all be having cookouts together again very soon.
FB

[Tiercel]

Yep, I got lazy in my reading and it came back and bit me. The point was already made.

[Arrakis]

Catch yourself up, Terciel.
I alos think [you're off] base Slagar. A weapon that hits hard with only light force will fail at the high end in weapon check. Why wouldn't it?

Dynamic resistance, nonlinear compressibility, nonlinear flex characteristics, high Poisson's ratio foams...

PS: I do at least three of those to my weapons. They're why my all-closed cell spears hit identically from Light through Harpoon.

[Dacian]

...science...

stop it. That's disgusting.

[Forkbeard]

I just glue foam to stick.
Then, smash science nerd.
FB

[Oisin]

I called light/garb/graze a few times at Rag, when I got hit light/garb/graze. AKA, I used the same calibration I always have. People hit me harder or more squarely the next time, RWC changed the rule back, life went on.

Not nearly as big of a deal as everyone made it out to be.