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 Post subject: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:07 pm 
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I just got this from the Dag boards. Please note the main concerns this year are clubs/maces, shields, and plastidip weapons...

http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=18240.0

Quote:
Dagorhirim,
As head weapons checker the responsibility for weapon safety and weapon standards are the job at hand. Over the last few years weapons construction and new technology has created niche weaponry on the field that does not have its own rule set. The head weapons checker is forced to use the current MOA (Approved by RWC June 2009 and updated December 2009) in order to address these weapons fairly.
The rules below affect: swords, clubs, maces and axes. These rules are what a weapon checker has to work with to be safe and fair to each participant. Some weapons that are not addressed in the MOA are, and not limited to clubs, maces and axes.
This is to make sure that the weapons checking guidelines are clear and concise within a reasonable timeframe before Ragnarok.
4.1.2 - Weapons Checkers and Heralds have the final say in determining how to classify a weapon, e.g., whether a weapon with a circular cross-section is a "sword" or a "club." (This rule is basis for checking all non-listed blue weapons.)


4.1.11 - Restrictions:
4.1.11.1 - The pommel of a weapon must be padded to prevent injury in the event of an accidental "hit" and must not easily go through a 2 inch-diameter hole.
4.1.11.2 - All bladed weapons must conform to the following: hide
4.1.11.2.1 - Minimum dimensions of 1.25 inch by 3 inches.
4.1.11.2.2 - Minimum dimensions for single edged bladed weapons are 1.25 by 2.5 inches
4.1.11.2.3 - Blue weapons must weigh a minimum of 12 ounces.
4.2.1 - Blue weapons are edged (hacking) or mass (smashing) melee weapons intended primarily for one-handed use.
4.2.2 - Blue swords must have a minimum blade length of 12 inches from above the handgrip to the tip and a maximum total length less than 48 inches.

Most understand how these rules applies to swords, but how do these rules affect the club, mace and ax.



Clubs:

Because of rule 4.1.11.2.1 the club needs to be a minimum of 3” across in all directions. Where the sword has defined edges for striking, the club striking surface is on all sides.

Rule 4.2.2 requires 12” inches of striking surface and the handgrip should not exceed 1/3 of the total length of the weapon. Include adequate courtesy padding as necessary. Between the two rules above this means a club needs a 3” cross-section for the top 12” of the weapon.

Maces:

Follow the same rules as the club above. To make the weapon look more like a mace enlarge the top of the weapon, be creative.

Ax:

The Ax has defined edges and flats. Single Edge axes use rule 4.1.11.2.2. This means that along the flat it needs to measure a minimum of 2.5”, and that it must have tape along the back; or non-striking side of the blade. It must also resemble the shape of an Ax. The ax blade must conform to the standard 1.25” min width. Again, the handle cannot extend past 1/3 the total length of the weapon, and adequate courtesy padding should be added wherever necessary. Two sided axes need to use the 3-inch rule 4.1.11.2.1 for the first 12 inches or to handgrip. Blades may extend past the 3” as desired.

Plastidip:

Plastidip on weapons is a safety and rules concern that has come up in the recent year. This technology is new and looks cool, but it is untried in the long haul. Using rule:
4.1.4 - All weapons must have cloth covering over all striking surfaces. This striking surface rule is the key to determining where PD will be permitted. Basically any place one would put tape instead of cloth should be acceptable i.e. Flats, quillions, incidental padding, and pommels.

Shields, because of their nature on the battle field as a striking non-wounding piece of equipment fall under the 4.1.4 rule. Shields need to be covered in cloth not plastic dip.







Arrows:

Tape should not be used to wrap carbon, fiberglass or aluminum arrow shafts, the rule ( 4.5.3.15.7 - All wooden arrows must have their shafts wrapped in tape.) applies only to wooden arrows Aluminum and fiberglass arrows cannot be taped because the tape will hide damage or breaks in the shaft. There have been arrows shot that break in half or have the head fall off in flight. The shake test archers use to check for damaged arrows does not catch all broken arrows that are taped. Because of this only wooden arrows are to be taped.

Shields:
4.1.11.5 - No weapons other than aluminum-shafted arrows may have metal cores.
The above rule applies to shields due to the offensive ability of the shield and using a “reasonable person” standard. We do strike, bash and punch with shields, 4.8.1 - A shield bash means using a shield to strike an opponent starting from a distance more than two steps away. 4.8.2 - A shield check means using a shield to strike an opponent starting from a distance two steps away or closer. This means that solid metal cores in shields are disallowed.
If a metal-cored shield is not made properly, when it fails, serious damage could be done to a participant.
To address the metal detectors issue, if they are used at Rag it would be in this manner:
spot checks by trained staff.

How will a weapon be checked? Starting the wand just above the handle, handgrip, quillions and moving toward the top of the weapon at an even pace. In the case where people use a penny or something similar at the top of their core, the wand will emit a short beep. This short beep is passable. If, during the pass, a long beep registers for many inches, it is cause for failure. Metal used in the hand grip and pommel for weighting purposes is allowed.

Back in the day scales were not used and now they are. It has become a weapons check standard. Making sure that your opponent has no metal in the “business end” of his weapon should also be a standard. This standard needs also to apply to shields.

Mods please sticky and lock this post.

Thank you,

Laithe
Rag Head Weapons Checker

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:48 pm 
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Thanks for the info. I'm curious as to what Bel people think about plasti-dip shields. Any comments on that?

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:17 am 
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My informed opinion is....

Why the eff not david blaine.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:45 am 
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Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:
Thanks for the info. I'm curious as to what Bel people think about plasti-dip shields. Any comments on that?
Shields aren't required to have a cover let alone a cloth cover so I don't care if people plastidip them if it's passable.

It seems like Dagorhir is either becoming increasingly reliant on the lowest common denominator to guide their rules (noticeable force, javelin bases, arrow construction, PD shields, and the current WTFery about "clubs") or there are just a few people in charge of weapons check at Rag this year that want to push their own agenda and interpretation in spite of what the majority of people want.

Who am I kidding. It's both.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:27 am 
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giggles it really is both. I hear that as the most common arguement as why 3 inch clubs/weapon minimums are a good idea. If you aim to that all weapons will need to be mass produced and only bought by approved manufacturers and I think we all know the Hate that has been giving to "voldemort" armory lately on the dag boards.


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:37 am 
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Other than the "noticable force" thing, I like all these rules. We should use them.
Clubs SHOULD be 3". Round blade swords are the worst thing on our field right now. It's the equivalent of fighting with a nightstick, which would not work. Not anything like a sword.
Plastidip shields are still too new. Proof being that I still haven't even seen one in person. I've seen some of the weapons and am not convinced at all of their safety. Not allowing them is the event co-ordinators perogotive.
As for "noticable force" what the **** does that mean? Is it more or less than "Sufficent force?" If it's less, I'm against it. If it's more, I'm all for it. None of us require hard enough hits.
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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:51 am 
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looks like no round swords at rag this year. sad. interesting but sad. I find myself agreeing with you fork that they don't really have a med-evil equivalent except maybe a cudgel, or as you say a night stick.

but all in all i have no qualms with just using flat blade swords. doesn't hinder me in the slightest. thanks for the heads up Dacian

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:02 am 
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you can still make a round sword just need to make them .5 inch larger.

Thats 1 layer of 1/4th foam around a WLS stick. Not terrible to do, just annoying they are kinda creating rules out of nothing. Round swords are safer though, i dont have to worry about people flatting me, or nearly as bad of stab tip blow outs as they happen on flat blades.


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:58 am 
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Ummm....I really hate to say this, but there is no such thing as a round sword, they are called clubs, no matter how you slice them, and they are used that way.

It sounds like Dag, in it's continued turtledom, is doing just about all they can to make it harder for crossover fighters to participate with them, without having a completely different set of equipment.

Just my observation, I wouldn't go to Rag anyhow, even if I was out that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:29 am 
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From what I've heard around, and from my dag-side buddies, noticeable force is just that. Did you 'notice' the hit? Then it counts. No 'was it hard enough?' anymore. Just , 'did you notice it?'. I'm pretty annoyed about that, actually.

I could be mistaken on this, or interpretations could vary regionally. This is what I've heard from my dag buddies, all of whom are midwestern.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:41 am 
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They're using the most ludicrously contrived rules interpretations to support this idiocy, too.

PS: Roundswords are fine; there's like no advantage over a flatblade in our game. In Amtgard, sure; in a game where you have to put real force behind your shots, no.

(This said as someone who fought in a small Amtgard tourney on Saturday.)


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:19 pm 
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Eh. Just my up my mind on whether or not I'm attending Rag this summer. Nope.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Soo Ma Tai wrote:
It sounds like Dag, is doing just about all they can to make it harder for crossover fighters to participate with them, without having a completely different set of equipment.



That actually makes a few of the people here happy.

not my cup of tea.


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Well, the sad part is, is that I already own two sets of equipment for when I cross game. I have Amt-sticks and shields, and I have Bel/Dag flat blades and my heavy WLS stick and an Edhellen shield. I could absolutely use my flat blade at Dag and not worry about my WLS now being too small for Dag, but it's kinda the principal. They are still accepted everywhere in Bel as far as I know. I will continue to support the organizations that encourage my hobby to grow, and I will boycott the ones that don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:53 pm 
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I will continue to support the organizations that encourage my hobby to grow, and I will boycott the ones that don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:27 pm 
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Squire Dacian wrote:
I just got this from the Dag boards. Please note the main concerns this year are clubs/maces, shields, and plastidip weapons...


Dacian, thanks for posting this over here to be helpful.

Plastidip weapons aren't allowed under Dagorhir's rules requiring a cloth cover. Never have been. But given the coolness factor, they'll likely be considered in the future as it seems like some folks are using plastidipped weapons and shields safely. What's their status in Belegarth? Does the BoW allow non-cloth covered weapons?

As for the rest, most of it is pretty reasonable interpretations, 'cept for the clubs bit (in my opinion). Even though I disagree with his conclusion on that point, the logic at least makes some sense from the standpoint that he's gotta work with Dagorhir's rules as they are, gaps and all. I'd have reached a different conclusion, but it wasn't my call to make. And in the end, anyone who runs a weapons check in Belegarth or Dagorhir has to evaluate everything that comes through and put it either in the PASS or FAIL piles and be able to justify that decision. It's a thankless job, but somebody gets to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:03 pm 
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I think I noticed somewhere something about hits and Dag and that it varies by region. I can really attest to this, because the Dag group closest to me is a very hard hitting group. There are likely more differences between random realms than national organizations.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:36 pm 
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Soo Ma Tai wrote:
Ummm....I really hate to say this, but there is no such thing as a round sword, they are called clubs, no matter how you slice them, and they are used that way.




we just have different terms for the same foam covered stick. it matters very little to me that you call them clubs and i call them round blades.


but i agree that their close mindedness is making Rag less appealing. what they don't seem to understand is that nobody that uses round blades and cross games gives a crap if they have to use a flat-blade. this is more of an attack on the idea of cross gaming, why? i don't get it...

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:20 am 
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PTQ its not an attack on cross gaming at all. I understand how you can see it that way. Its an attack on badly written rules, and laithe is trying to play towards the safer side then the unsafe. To him more foam=safer. We all know that this isnt that case always but theres not much we can do to change his mind. Its more about regulating our own game other then trying to attack others. Hell most of dag is so pigeoned holed they dont event know about other games or even care they think they are the best and forever will be.


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:19 am 
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So what your telling me, that I shouldn't boycott this event because it's a slap to cross-gaming, but rather that I should boycott this event because the people running the largest game in foam fighting currently are completely incompetent and make their organization look a couple of notches below NERO in terms of understanding what they are doing?

I really do try to like Dagorhir. I really really really want to like that game. I love some of the wildly cool people that I know from Dag and enjoy hanging with, but holy cow... it's like they are just determined to suck.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:05 am 
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wisp... you put it rather clearly there.

Theres a lof of cool parts to dagorhir but it seems to me as a whole this sport is bound to think its the best forever. Part of it could care less about crossgaming and I think thats a good thing to be independant, other parts just scream we feel threatened keep it away


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:27 am 
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Although I hate to say it, they do have one of the largest foam fighting events in the nation. It seems to me that the main thought process is "OK, let them boycott, where else are they gonna get over 600 fighters on one field?"

The sad thing is....they're right.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:49 am 
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As the rest of the foam fighting world continues to discover each other and figure out the other guy is just like them, events will continue to grow. Tech and technique develope and everyone benefits. For a long term strategy that is a ridiculous plan (Ragnarok's weapon clarifiactions). Clan was above those numbers too once upon a time. Tides go in... tides go out. With Clan, it shrank after Amtgard became more firmly entrenched in various regions of the Country. Now we have multiple pretty big events (300-500) all over the place where as when we were more centrally located just in Texas (the way Dag is on the east coast), we had one big event that everyone came to.

Interesting parallel in evolution. I'd suggest that that trend will also follow for Dag. Gates of Summer had around 300 or so last year as a result of the local pocket of groups in the midwest area grouped together for one big event. I don't think there is an organizational structure (meaning geographical kingdoms) in place for Dag to push as far as fast and it will largely remain isolated in pockets for the forseeable future with a strong core to the east. Same with Bel by and large except plug in midwest for east.

All that said... 3" round blades remains truly retarded.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:53 am 
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True that, I really love me some of them Dag folks, just not the organization. And though Rag may have 600 people, I would still rather go to Ockfest or Chaos.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:12 am 
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Booo on the plastidip shield rule. We have two in Kansas City, worn by Skeith the Forsaken and Oddayin the Ghoul, both of Army of Mordor. These guys are serious about the art of the sport, and their weapons tech. Both shields are coreless with a layer of EVA, layers of blue on top of that, and 4 layers of plastidip over the top. After making each shield, Oddy has his kids jump on it for a little bit to soften up the foam.

At weapons check you can feel a slight squishy "give" to the foam, and with no core layer, the hardest you would ever be hit with is EVA foam. Having been bashed multiple times with both of these shields, I would venture to say that they are safer by far than your average plywood cored shield. Being shield edged by these shields actually feels better, b/c the slight "give" to the foam lessens the impact, giving it more of a push than a punch.

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The art on these is amazing, and impressive, but that's besides the point. Looking at a safety issue, we should only be concerned with the techniques that make weapons construction safe. The problem with plastidip is that you can't pull it off and see the foam construction underneath. You have to take the owner's word for it. You can test these by shield edging someone, and bashing someone, which are the same tests we do on weapons. If they are going to treat shields like weapons, then the shield should pass and fail like a weapon. Also, is a cloth cover going to make the shield any safer? I've found that its the construction of a shield, rather than its cover that ultimately contributes to its safety on the field.


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:25 am 
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and falkrix shield feels like getting edge with a brick. Its pretty but if i punched you with the few PD shields i have seen people would be injured non stop. I edge far to much to think that PD is safe on shields.


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:29 am 
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Those look great!

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:51 am 
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Azgarehta wrote:
If they are going to treat shields like weapons, then the shield should pass and fail like a weapon.


Belegarth most certainly mother **** does not treat shields like weapons. PLEASE go read the BoW; this game actually put in definitions for what these various words mean, just to keep people from claiming ignorant * like "a shield is a weapon that does no damage". And, if Bel DID treat shields as weapons, they would definitely not be allowed to be covered in Plastidip.

Sir Galin was using a Latex'd shield at Beltaine '08. I don't think there were any issues with that except how easily it got beat/chewed up. I'd check a PD shield and if it was safe I'd let it on a field I was Head Herald for.


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:16 am 
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i own a PD shield, and have used it at several events. It's made using Edhellen's process, same as Galin's

Here ya go:
Image

The shield is perfectly safe, as much so as any other cored shield I've ever seen running around. If I take an edge to your head, you're gonna have a bad day. If I punch you in the gut, you're gonna lose your breath for a minute or so. Just like any other cored shield passed at every event. There's a reason we don't have weapon/shields in this game.

And yeah, the surface gets a little chewed up. Mine probably only has another month or three worth of regular fighting (3/wk, typically) left in it before it'd need to be repainted Which is why it tends to only see events these days.

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Last edited by Slagar on Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:20 am 
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arrakis you know the plus side of shields as weapons right?

shield rigidity is back


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:33 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:39 am 
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Arrakis wrote:
Azgarehta wrote:
If they are going to treat shields like weapons, then the shield should pass and fail like a weapon.


Belegarth most certainly mother **** does not treat shields like weapons. PLEASE go read the BoW; this game actually put in definitions for what these various words mean, just to keep people from claiming ignorant * like "a shield is a weapon that does no damage". And, if Bel DID treat shields as weapons, they would definitely not be allowed to be covered in Plastidip.


What I'm saying here is that if they (Dag) are afraid of shields hitting to hard, then they should hit test them, like weapons. I know that Bel treats their shields like shields and weapons like weapons.

I see good weapons and shields like good garb. They help improve the look of the game. If Dag can draft stringent, safe construction rules, I believe we can allow this foamsmithing art to flourish, be safe, and look better.


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:39 am 
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I never knew it left?!?



welcome to dag where half the rule changes are voted on the other half are "typos"


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:59 pm 
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Arrakis wrote:
Sir Galin was using a Latex'd shield at Beltaine '08. I don't think there were any issues with that except how easily it got beat/chewed up. I'd check a PD shield and if it was safe I'd let it on a field I was Head Herald for.


I agree that I'd check it and probably let it on the field at a local event or one where the organizers allowed it, even in Dagorhir. But that wasn't really the question, was it?

I asked whether the BoW allows PD or other non-cloth covered shields. And since nobody bothered to answer that question, after reading through once or twice it does seem like it would (the only requirement for cloth covers is on striking surfaces). The anecdotes here indicate that there are some PD shields in Belegarth and they're being allowed by local groups at their events, just as apparently do Dagorhir groups that have them. Slagar's comments about rapid deterioration of the surface isn't good - but that is the kind of real world experience that we need to evaluate new technology.

Honestly, there's none of this stuff near where I am, but if we can use it safely I'd love to see more of it on the field. For the coolness factor if nothing else.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:14 pm 
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The BoW says nothing about PD or latex. The only rules for cloth covers are for striking surfaces. Shields don't have striking surfaces, therefore don't need to have a cover.

Every time I've ever heard or seen it brought up is that PD/latex on shields is absolutely kosher. Weapons are another matter and in fact are identical to Dagorhir's rules above regarding PD weapons. The striking surface must have a cloth cover, but the rest can be PD if you want.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:25 pm 
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Wisp wrote:
As the rest of the foam fighting world continues to … [back-patting]

Interesting parallel in evolution. I'd suggest that that trend will also follow for Dag. Gates of Summer had around 300 or so last year as a result of the local pocket of groups in the midwest area grouped together for one big event. I don't think there is an organizational structure (meaning geographical kingdoms) in place for Dag to push as far as fast and it will largely remain isolated in pockets for the forseeable future with a strong core to the east. Same with Bel by and large except plug in midwest for east.


Or maybe the SCA’s experience applies, with one singular preeminent event [Pennsic] becoming over time the largest of a series of large regional events during the year. Ragnarok occurs where Dagorhir is the strongest, and they decided long ago not to try to move it around to adapt to expansion and population shifts. Encouraging regional events was part of that decision, so as in Belegarth, and apparently Amtgard, Dagorhir will continue encouraging the growth of events like Ides, Gates, Badon Hill and so on.

Wisp wrote:
All that said... 3" round blades remains truly retarded.


Calling it a “round blade” is silly, it’s a club. If you want a blade, build one. I took mine to SKBC and had fun with the looks the instructors got on their faces as they had to think about how to adapt to someone using a sword.

In the end, all of this is kind of minor, as the vast majority of safe weapons are unaffected by any of Laithe’s interpretations. If your decision to attend an event is made by whether you can use a 2.5” versus 3” diameter club, did you really want to attend in the first place? Seriously?

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:59 pm 
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Amtgard RoP wrote:
3.b ... round blade

Belegarth BoW wrote:
1.1.5. Sword - Any Weapon approximating a medieval sword, constructed using either an edge/flat or cylindrical design.

Dagorhir MoA wrote:
4.1.2 - Weapons Checkers and Heralds have the final say in determining how to classify a weapon, e.g., whether a weapon with a circular cross-section is a "sword" or a "club."


All these games have acknowledged "round blades" for a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:35 am 
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So, are you seriously pretending that this isn't a giant middle finger to cross-gamers from the only game to use almost excusively round swords? C'mon, man.

I own mostly flatblades, and it wouldn't affect me one bit. Same with most of Bel. This is their way of nixing the 2.5" round blades that are all 95% of Amtgard owns. Whether you like Amt tech or not, this is a giant PR middle finger. Now, maybe they want to keep their game the heavy-tech hard-hitter it always is, right? So institute weight minimums, and sufficient force rules. They did that, Amtgarders still wanna play. Now they're resorting to this *. I don't pretend to get it at all.

Anybody who's seriously trying to pretend that this is a safety issue is full of ****. As though a blade with mostly unpadded flats is somehow safer than one with striking-surface quality padding around all of it? Yeah, ok. If you're gonna pull this crap, then at least don't insult everybody by pretending it's for our own good. I hate that.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:42 am 
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Yes, seriously. If you go and read the thread over on E-Sam regarding Rag this year, you'll see my post where I will be in PA during the time of Rag and was planning on hitting it while there.

This is absolutely the middle finger so yes. Considering you guys represent yourselves as an organization as pretty much condescending pricks pretty much all of the time... kick rocks.

Will

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:19 am 
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Um, maybe you should re-read my post. I'm on your side, bro. Oom fraba.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:27 am 
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I am pretty sure Wisp is referring to the last part of Kyrax's post.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:40 am 
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Slagar wrote:
So, are you seriously pretending that this isn't a giant middle finger to cross-gamers from the only game to use almost excusively round swords? C'mon, man.
I don't actually see it that way, but I'm usually one to give the benefit of the doubt. I see it as whoever is organizing weapons check pushing their own "anti-roundsword" agenda on the Dagorhir community and using their flagship event to leverage that agenda.

Ragnarok doesn't give a **** about cross-gaming. Dagorhir has made an official stance about not caring about other organizations. The whole of Amtgard and Belegarth could boycott the event and it would still wouldn't affect their attendance that dramatically.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:23 am 
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Soo Ma Tai wrote:
I am pretty sure Wisp is referring to the last part of Kyrax's post.


Yeah, I was tracking where you were coming from Slagar. 8)

I was referring to Kyrax's post. And yes Giggles, you do offer a valid point.

I still think it's a middle finger as it seems to be something different all the time with very sketchy support as to the whys.

The first year I went to Rag, I pimped the hell out of that event on E-Sam and had a tremendous amount of people lined up to go. People signed up on the Dag boards, asked questions on how to get our equipment in-line with weapons check, hit local practices, purchased tons of equipment, etc. Then we got banned from the boards one by one for no reason.

The offical response I received was that it was a preventative measure as we were Amtgard politicians looking to usurp Rag. REALLY? *? We shrugged and ended up only taking about ten folks. At the event, we had a good time and enjoyed our selves. But no, we didn't impact the attendance in any way really. It was still a very large and well ran event with the exception that Heydeez bought around $600 or more of equipment from Edhellen just to outfit everyone from his crew for Rag. None of those weapons made it through weapon check, and I suspect it was only due to the fact that not only were they easily identifiable as Edhellen sticks but we claimed them as such specifically purchased for the event as we were Amtgarders and didn't have an inventory at that time. Now, compared to some of the pathetic sticks running around the field, it felt like a snub then as well (more so to Edhellen than to us but we were the ones out of cash). Still no way to tell, so we gave the benefit of the doubt and made due.

I also understand that issues like weight requirements and round vs flat blades etc... are issues that cross game lines and doesn't automatically make it a snub to Amtgard fighters coming to the event. There were "lightsabers, pixie sticks, battle wands, speed sticks" or whatever issues in both Dag and Bel that needed to be addressed. Fair enough. Again, the benefit of the doubt and in this case, I can see it as a cultural development of the nature of the games that instituted them so absolutely no problems with that. Three ounces does not really break my ability to play a game and I happen to prefer Bel style combat.

Now, as things continue to roll on, cross-gaming exposure is at it's highest point than at any time previously. Surely, for an event the size of Rag, the people running such an event would be clued in enough to this hobby in general that they would take into consideration major advancements in tech for things like, Warlord Sports brand heavy swords designed to be in line with Dag/Bel/Amt requirements on weight, size, etc. I cannot imagine that after however many years that round clubs or whatever have been on the field, this year in particular ended up having some critical need to increase the size to 3" when there is a massive number of 2.5" swords floating around in the general foam fighting community that could potentially make the trek out to Rag.

My benefit of the doubt button is now officially broken due to over use. Maybe next year. It's aggravating enough not to make the extra effort this year. There is always this mantra of "it's not Dag, it's just the idiots who run the board... it's not Dag, it's the idiots who ran this event... it's not Dag it's whoever on an ego trip... well holy moly when is Dag going to take control of itself and halt the stupidity of these idiots that their own populace complains about?

Will

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:23 am 
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I'm really, really, really against this 3" club interpretation at Rag this year, and I've voiced my opinion and reasoning as such on the boards.

But as much as I disagree with it, I must say that the 3" club rule had nothing to do with "giving the middle finger" to cross-gamers. Really. Nothing at all.

If you are a cross-gamer, and you hate this rule, fine. Hate it for all the reasons you have, but if one of your reasons is because you think it was a passive aggressive slap on your nuts, well, on that particular point you are misdirected.

If this (in my opinion poor) rules interpretation really is the difference between you attending Rag this year and not attending this year (and that seems like an awfully fine razor's edge), I will be happy to give you any gear out of my personal armory so you can have fun at Ragnarok this year, just let me know. Happy to help a fellow fighter out.

On the PD stuff -- Plastidip is new tech, and it can be applied with great success or with utter failure. I've seen PD-covered shields where the maker didn't think it through very well, and made an unsafe shield *because* of the plastidip. I've also seen PD-covered shields where you could edge me all day and I wouldn't notice... completely safe. Wynar, the dude who seems to have really gotten the ball rolling on the artistic potential of PD-weapons & who happens to live down here in Atlanta, has even made striking surface PD swords that were absolutely safe. But it took some really high-end weapon-making technology.... something most people right now can't pull off.

If you want to see some of the stuff he has made, check here (a few things here are NOT intended to be used for Dag/Bel, but were comissions for other larps): http://www.wynar.com/for-a-beatin-good-time.html

Tell me that stuff doesn't got some sex appeal, and I'll call you a fibber ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:44 am 
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Athron, you say this wasn't intended to be a slap to the nuts, but you havn't given a real reason why such an interpretation was made. Now you have to understand that most of us don't have access to Dag boards to research why this was done.

Even if this is not an intentional slap, it is most certainly an un-intentional one. Dag's official stance is that they "don't care about other groups" but this couldn't be farther from the truth. If they didn't care, they wouldn't be lurking our board's and other groups boards, and keeping track of who's from other groups so they can ban them on their own boards.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:52 am 
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*quack quack quack*

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:07 pm 
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Soo Ma Tai wrote:
Even if this is not an intentional slap, it is most certainly an un-intentional one.


Yes, you're right about this, as anyone who feels un-intentionally insulted is placing the ownership on the interpretation made by themselves, not on the person who engaged in the action. I, nor anyone else, can dig into your brain and tell you how to interpret other people's actions, so if you want to feel un-intentionally insulted, that is entirely within your own person to judge.

My claim for how this isn't an intentional insult is based on my explicit interactions with Laithe at last year's Ragnarok, so I believe I have a sound understanding of his true motivations. I believe the post he made with his own words accurately reflects his motivations (re: he genuinely believes the rules have been improperly interpreted up to now, and he is now rectifying that situation), so I don't think I need to try to put words into his mouth other than to say that I take his post at face value based on my interactions with him. I still disagree with him on this interpretation and how he chose to implement it, but my disagreement with him ends there.

Soo Ma Tai wrote:
Dag's official stance is that they "don't care about other groups" but this couldn't be farther from the truth. If they didn't care, they wouldn't be lurking our board's and other groups boards, and keeping track of who's from other groups so they can ban them on their own boards.


You have made this claim many times in prior posts in other threads, and I don't pretend to know if you're right or wrong. Regardless, I think it stands outside the domain of the current issue at hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:09 pm 
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Hah hah hah! It does have feathers and webbed feet...

Truthfully, to me, it just sounds like more Aratari-bred top-down *; Laithe seems to be * off at some guy in the Aratari who uses 2.75" roundswords and some other guy who uses metal hose clamps or some other **** idiocy in his flails and now he's making a statement by failing completely safe **** at Ragnarok this year. Because, for some reason, if RWC decides you're the Head Weapons Checker for Ragnarok, that means you can say any crazy thing that it's completely explicitly contradicted by the rules and it sticks.

If Dag had an online War Council, this could be taken care of immediately.

BUT! I, through Anvard, am putting in a SLEW of rules changes that I hope will go through this year and fix most of this * outright. Tell your friends (especially if they're RWC reps for a Dag chapter).


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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:16 pm 
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So your position is basically this:

Our response to your unintentional insult is the result of your head weapon checker being intentionally stupid.

How does one person in your organization hold this much power that they can so influence your largest event with an arguably bad call? Who grants that power? How long do they hold it for? What checks and balances are in place to keep something even more silly from happening?

I appreciate your level headed responses but it just seems like spin rather than any type of desire to make things a little less outrageous.

Will

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 Post subject: Re: Ragnarok Weapons Check...(please read for important info)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:21 pm 
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Athron wrote:
You have made this claim many times in prior posts in other threads, and I don't pretend to know if you're right or wrong. Regardless, I think it stands outside the domain of the current issue at hand.



How is this outside the issue at hand. Dag or their head weapons checker, is intentionally trying to push out people from other groups. This is Dag's stance as a whole, they don't need us, nor do they want us. They are purposefully trying to make it more difficult for crossgamers to attend. This helps to protect their "intellectual property" from being usurped by other groups like Bel or Amt. It also protects their members from being exposed to games which are more acceptng of the sport as a whole, who they could potentially loose membership to.

I think this is the real issue at hand. And it's why so many people are put off by Dag. Paranoia is the Destroyer.

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