Some days Dag makes me want to hurt myself

[Outhro Youkker]

I thought I was lazy when I made/repaired community weapons. When the weapon tip could twist almost over 45 degrees, I know it is not attached to the core, I would put it aside and count it broken. When the pommel(I still don't know the right spelling to this) would wiggle and or twist, it was lose off the core and I wouldn't allow it on the practice field. If the weapon hit to hard and it was not core, I would let the new fighter use it against me to tenderize it in sparring.
When did it count as legal for foam to snap back into place count as a passing weapon? I helped at weapons check at Rag and was told to pass a weapon that has a tip that twists 90 degrees and snaps back into place. I was told that it is fine for a weapon to be a bit off the core, still be safe because it snaps back into place and the person wount hit someone with the flat.
I didnt know I was so strict when I check weapons. I was so aggravated that i was handed 4 short swords that had half their cores off the blade, they were passed the day before, and I was told to pass 2 of them because they turned less than 90 and snapped back. The other two had a wonderful explanation to me from their maker of, "you have never seen this type of build before."
I quit checking bladed weapons and stuck to red, green, shields, and clubs. I disagreed on crappy construction and borderline broken weapons to be used. Next day I changed to be a target to be shot at to test arrows.
The * about safety over playability is constant, but when it comes down to it, the idea of not failing half of the weapons because it would drop the moral at the event was more important than the * about the weapons checking.

At Ragnarok, 2.5 clubs still auto failed, but the half detached blade to the core was still "safe"
**** my life
and **** the inconsistency to the politics that dodge the rules to keep the (dont know what to call these relaxed people on their weapons not getting decent maintenance) happy.
Compared, I am a weapon checking nazi. **** **** ****!!!

I like the rule of "run your practices how you want." Now I dont feel bad about having a Dagorhir practice fighting with Belegarth rules and teaching the kids about all the other fighting groups out there. The 8yr old asked to try out LARPing, I told him, "set up a day to have your practice, and I will visit to see how that goes."

I am ranting like a *. If the "twisty snap back" is a written or unwritten rule, I dont like it at all.
I tear at my chin fur as it makes me cringe. Dagorhir, some days you make me want to hurt myself.

[Thorondor]

I've never heard of the 'twisty snap back' thing as a rule, written or otherwise...that's in Dag, Amtgard, or Bele. What it sounds like is rules are being made up on the spot by people who want to pass weapons so, as you said, moral stays high. If you're passing almost 1400 people's gear though weapon check and you aren't failing more than a dozen weapons either everyone is REALLY good at crafting/maintaining their gear, or the weapon checking isn't being done correctly...or by competent people.

"you have never seen this type of build before."

Anyone who says that to me when their weapon is twisting 90* I'd have to take aside and explain to them weapons shouldn't twist on their core and explain to them why. Of course, said weapons would be failed for twisting so much.

What I take out of this entire thread is wondering what the twisty snap back thing is about and what people think about it...

[Outhro Youkker]

It is mostly about how at least a few inches of a weapon's tip can be somewhat separated from a core and it was still being passed.
I dont see that as safe. It is the sign of a breaking/broken weapon.

[Nish]

Outhro, we recently acquired a fighter whose only interest is using red weapons. He's big and burly and can swing with more power than a freight train. With an edhellen red, he makes hurting happen. His weapon recently started to twist at the tip in the way you describe, but at probably around 30 degrees. I've had weapons like this pass before at events, so I showed him the issue but let him continue to use it. Everybody that got hit by him that day had massive purple bruises; I took one to the elbow and couldn't move my arm for a few hours. After that elbow shot we decided it was time to stop fighting with that thing.

In addition to the elbow pain, I had a bruise on my inner thigh was deep purple and had two straight black lines (got me there twice) from where the blade had twisted on impact rather than softening the force of the blow. And I know his shots weren't flat because I saw them hit. Anyway, he re-attached the blade, and it is now solidly secured to the core. His hits still hurt like a mother, but the bruises aren't nearly as bad, and there are no core marks any more.

You are more than right to fail a weapon that twists significantly at the tip. In the hands of a tappy fighter, it may not be an issue, but for anyone who puts power into their shot it can be dangerous.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

""In the hands of a tappy fighter, it may not be an issue""

But all weapons checks are supposed to be to the same standards so that the biggest and smallest of players are using the same gear. Glad everyone agrees that this is crap. Not sure how posting that here makes anything better though, you should have gone to war council and brought it up so that the people running weapons check next year got "pre-embarrassed" into doing it right.

Thrush
berserk

[varadin]

a weapon that twists at the tip is safe in a hard hitting fighters hands though. If it returns and the foam is not broken down its fine. Its about that return though when doesnt thats when problems happen. The other problem is douches who see a slight twist on the tip of a sword and rip the whole GD blade off. There is a HUGE **** difference between a safe weapon that is breaking down and a safe weapon that was just torn apart at check.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I disagree, i am not a real hard hitter, but I do put some speed on my shots. If the foam is off the core, it don't pass. The foam will twist upon striking or even just the wind resistance can cause the foam to turn causing a flat strike even when the sword is swung on edge. A weapon's blade must be attached to the core, if it isn't I would fail them too.

[Loptr]

A weapon's blade must be attached to the core, if it isn't I would fail them too.

barring the exception of a Quicktoob (due to omni nature).

How could one honestly argue with the above statement? Loose cores lead to upredictable flating and the very real inevatible core blowing out the thinner side of a flatblade. Where is the logic in allowing this crap?

I will agree an inspection should not be causing more damage to the weapon. But unsafe is unsafe.

L

[varadin]

so when the top 2 inches of a sword isnt on the core, twists slightly but returns you immediately fail it? The majority of the foam is on its just begun to break down.

Seriously thats a safe weapon and ill get hit with it all day, when it starts to break passed that theres issues. Ill pass that and give them the notice of "hey its breaking down watch that if it gets worse pull it from the field"

[Outhro Youkker]

When checked right, you can tell the difference of "Soon will break" and "It is off the core"
The few inches off the core I dont agree with.

I agree to this

give them the notice of "hey its breaking down watch that if it gets worse pull it from the field"

and they better listen to the weapons checker

[Azgarehta]

I worked Rag weapons check most of the days (Mon-Wed, Fri) and we failed for twisting on the core if it was bad enough. Consistency, Consistency, Consistency! If you don't agree with another weapon checker, (because there's always differences of opinions due to region, units) bring it up with the head weapons checker. If the head weapons checker passes it, there's really nothing you can do.

[varadin]

I worked Rag weapons check most of the days (Mon-Wed, Fri) and we failed for twisting on the core if it was bad enough. Consistency, Consistency, Consistency! If you don't agree with another weapon checker, (because there's always differences of opinions due to region, units) bring it up with the head weapons checker. If the head weapons checker passes it, there's really nothing you can do.

you find the weapon on the field grapple it out of their hands and if the pass sticker just "falls off" it happens

[Nish]

""In the hands of a tappy fighter, it may not be an issue""

But all weapons checks are supposed to be to the same standards so that the biggest and smallest of players are using the same gear.

Precisely.

[Nish]

a weapon that twists at the tip is safe in a hard hitting fighters hands though. If it returns and the foam is not broken down its fine. Its about that return though when doesnt thats when problems happen. The other problem is douches who see a slight twist on the tip of a sword and rip the whole GD blade off. There is a HUGE **** difference between a safe weapon that is breaking down and a safe weapon that was just torn apart at check.

Veradin, I challenge you to find high-speed footage of someone hitting with a weapon like this. Here is what you will see: the blade will twist significantly on impact, causing the sword to effectively flat its target. The core will stretch the tacky glue and tape holding the flats together (if it's an edhellen sword..a box-and-blue will have a whole single layer of foam covering the cofe...) and the strike will be completely unpadded by any foam on impact. As the strike ends the blade will snap back into place and the weapon will look completely fine again.

I could see this happening in a sword whose tip you could twist as little as 25 to 30 degrees by hand. Probably less.

[Arrakis]

Anyway, he re-attached the blade, and it is now solidly secured to the core. His hits still hurt like a mother, but the bruises aren't nearly as bad, and there are no core marks any more.

If he's bruising you guys on a regular basis, the weapon needs to fail. A lot of unmodified Edhellen reds should fail check but a lot of people don't hit that hard on the field with them. Have him slap a bonus layer of blue on the blade and put a new cover on it or something.

[Acorn]

... the blade will twist significantly on impact, causing the sword to effectively flat its target. The core will stretch the tacky glue and tape holding the flats together (if it's an edhellen sword..a box-and-blue will have a whole single layer of foam covering the cofe...) and the strike will be completely unpadded by any foam on impact. As the strike ends the blade will snap back into place and the weapon will look completely fine again.

^^ the results of which look like this:



i am 100% for more thorough and consistent weapons checking.

[Thorondor]

^^ the results of which look like this:

i am 100% for more thorough and consistent weapons checking.

Whoa! Did you get in a fight with a fiberglass rod making machine or something?

[Acorn]

lol. apparently. gonna start guarding my non-shield side leg more though that's for sure. :p

[Sir Anastasia]

Weapons can hurt...but they should not injure. From the look of those bruises (multiple bruises- one fight session!), the weapon FAILS. Seriously, it shouldn't have taken that many bruising hits for the weapon to be pulled off the field. What fighter or weapon's checker in their right mind lets that continue? I know we all play rough and act tough, but if you run around doing that **** to new people there won't be any new people left. No injuries...that's what weapon's check is for.

[Arrakis]

I can't tell if a shot is going to leave a bruise for real or if it's just a really hard shot, sometimes. I may not know until a day or two later when a deep-tissue bruise comes out!

[Forkbeard]

Lilly white girl flesh(yum) bruises pretty easy. You chicks need to block and move your **** feet. Stop letting those * hit you over and over in the same place.
The guy with the red is another story. We had an edhellen red made on a 6' solid 3/4" core that was dangerous from the first day. I have a 5' edhellen with the same foam and same core, just a foot shorter and it hits really nice, for a large red sword. Some of the edhellen reds are just too spicy.
But you guys should be schoolin his * if he's hitting that hard all the time. He's got to be over extending himself. Get in there and love on his kidney's when he sweeps by.
As to the original post, I always fail anything that is loose from the core. I don't care what kind of weapon or how far it rotates. If it's not attached to the core, it no good. I thought that's what we were suposed to be doing. **** moral. If * don't like the safety rules, they can go home.
They should have brought extra weapons anyway, sucka's.
FB

[Acorn]

I can't tell if a shot is going to leave a bruise for real or if it's just a really hard shot, sometimes. I may not know until a day or two later when a deep-tissue bruise comes out!

^^ same. don't even notice when playing because my adrenaline is up.

Lilly white girl flesh(yum) bruises pretty easy. You chicks need to block and move your **** feet. Stop letting those * hit you over and over in the same place.

^^ true. although i'm not sure the "you chicks" thing is entirely fair since i know plenty of guys with the same issue.

[Outhro Youkker]

Foot work is one thing, but you cant dodge forever. When you do get hit, if you feel the core, then the weapon is to be pulled off the field and checked to make sure you are not a sissy. It broke in use or it was not checked properly for it to be in play the first place.

I have pulled three fiberglass swords that I used from fighting because I could hear the fiberglass inside lose after hitting someone.

[Arrakis]

Foot work is one thing, but you cant dodge forever. When you do get hit, if you feel the core, then the weapon is to be pulled off the field and checked to make sure you are not a sissy. It broke in use or it was not checked properly for it to be in play the first place.

Fact.

A friend of mine who is usually really good about having good weapons (passable, at least), had come up with a new bluesword design that used really dense core foam. He hits like a gorilla, but does not bruise people with most of his weapons. I let him use it to spar against me one weekend this summer. I looked like this two days later:



It only got bigger as it came out. It wound up maxing out at around the size of my head. My left bicep and tricep were also a mass of somewhat lighter (only that mottled speckly purple on yellow) bruises. Everything hurt, but it didn't necessarily hurt like core. After the thigh shot, I told him to stop using the sword, though; it just hurt WAY more than a passing hit should.

[Forkbeard]

I've only ever been bruised like that one time. It was from an SCA weapon weilded by a VERY good fighter who hit me VERY hard in exac tly the same place as you, arrakis. Mine swelled up like a soup bowl coming out of my leg, too. I came home and made new leg armor.
Outhro, you can dodge forever. Forever in a sword fight is like 2 minutes. If you can't dodge around that long you suck.
Acorn, those dudes you know are girls, too. Tell 'em I said so.

FB

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

those dudes you know are girls, too. Tell 'em I said so.

FB

We should have a beer if we are ever in the same place.

Thrush
berserk

[Aldric]

I've only ever been bruised like that one time. It was from an SCA weapon weilded by a VERY good fighter who hit me VERY hard in exac tly the same place as you, arrakis.

Ah, nothing like a rattan bruise to help you identify where you need (better) armor. I got hit in the thigh like that and realized I need to pad my leather thigh armor. Blue camp pad to the rescue! It was hot, but never got bruise like that again.

[Acorn]

Acorn, those dudes you know are girls, too. Tell 'em I said so.

FB

ooooohhhhhhh buuuuuuuurrrrrrnnnnnn.

point FB.

and i will tell them if i ever decide they are worth my time.

[Tiercel]

I agree with OP's standards, and encourage him to stick to his guns next time someone tries to persuade him to pass a weapon he knows shouldn't be on the field.

Also, in agreement with what someone else said- even if a weapon is failing, PLEASE never do additional damage to it! When the first sword I ever got failed, I was sad but planned on hanging onto it as a momento. Then a more experienced fighter began trying to "show me why" it failed by gripping it in both hands and tearing it open further. Fail weapons if it's appropriate, but please don't damage them in the process.

[Forkbeard]

Way back when I started and people were tough....
You had to always be prepared to have one of your weapons CUT open by weapon checkers if they didn't feel like you were making them right. They would take a razor and cut your sword open right there to see how you made it. This would happen to passing weapon sometimes if they were part of a batch brought by a noob and were suspected to being constructed shodily. Same thing applied to arrows.
While I know this isn't how we do things everywhere, I think it should be.
The idea that you would get all teary over a failed weapon being ripped further, you are a sentimental *. Butch up. Good weapons are temporary at best. Failed weapons are scrap. That guy was trying to help you out with some good info. You need to listen when grown folks is talkin.
FB

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Yeah, I can strip off a shot blade in about 2 minutes, get my next blade out of my gear in like 30 seconds, apply DAP to the core and the blade blank in about 4 minutes, let it dry for about 20 minutes, attach it in about 2 minutes (if I'm being super careful) and put my cover back on in like... 30 seconds. Having a failed blade keep you out of combat is for children who hit like pussies. If you hit hard you will go through blades like it's stupid, foam of all natures, does not hold up along the core tip to repeated hard hitting.

Thrush
berserk

[varadin]

Yeah, I can strip off a shot blade in about 2 minutes, get my next blade out of my gear in like 30 seconds, apply DAP to the core and the blade blank in about 4 minutes, let it dry for about 20 minutes, attach it in about 2 minutes (if I'm being super careful) and put my cover back on in like... 30 seconds. Having a failed blade keep you out of combat is for children who hit like pussies. If you hit hard you will go through blades like it's stupid, foam of all natures, does not hold up along the core tip to repeated hard hitting.

Thrush
berserk

maybe if you let the dap dry properly over 2-3 days youd have less trouble with that. I use gorilla glue + dap on my base layers and only have problems with tips when the core is coming through the side because of stabbing.

[No'Vak]

Pretty sure he was just referring to how long it takes to fix a blown out sword, not that he does that and takes it back to check.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

As I've used DAP professionally for one of it's intended purposes (flat rubber roofs) I feel I should tell you that you have a window of 20 minutes to about 5 hours to stick the 2 layers of any "DAPped" materials together and still get the maximum strength bond. Once the two sides are joined, they are stuck, as stuck as they will ever be. No amount of "curing" will strengthen the bond in any noticeable way for our purposes.

My problem is not the foam coming off the core, that's not what I said. My fiberglass core DESTROYS the foam around it. It is still attached just fine, but it's completely soft and shot to hell. So you can collapse the blade down to near enough the core that it is unsafe. Heavy, stiff cores will beat up your blade from the inside before your blade gets damaged from the outside if you swing hard. And I do.

Thrush
berserk

PS: before anyone tells me to get better foam, I'm using one of the "high tech" dark grey/black "eva light"esque whatevers already. I haven't used blue foam in years. Blue foam is not financially viable for me... Blows out too quick.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Pretty sure he was just referring to how long it takes to fix a blown out sword, not that he does that and takes it back to check.

Yeah, I make sure my **** is straight before the battle. I do not remember the last time one of my swords failed at Darkon or Dagorhir... I haven't had a Belegarth chapter near me in years, so I'm not gonna say anything about that. But when I did, they passed. lol

[varadin]

you using the stuff from Best dag stuff? cause its ****. Get a firmer foam as a base layer, a good 3.5-4 pound youll not have the problems your having.

[Oisin]

I just build a red sword using 4# EVA as the core box, and Best Dag Stuff's 2# Eva for the other layers. We'll see how it goes. I expect to have to strip the 2# long before the 4# is gone.

As far as Rag weapons check goes, I didn't agree with a lot of the official clarifications in use this year. Neither did a lot of people. IMO, that's why Laithe wasn't elected again. Oh well, guess we'll see how it goes next year. *shrugs*

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

No, I've never seen "best dag stuff". The stuff I have is legit.

Thrush
berserk

[The Lost Celt]

Only ever pulled a weapon to the heralds attention once, it was a jav, and I'm convinced he threw it backwards though he insists otherwise.

I build my own, I don't agree with the torque off the core thing, was always an instant fail in my book, however at the same time I haven't seen any injuries in that particular group, since I build my own I tend to pull them before the checkers do, I also insist the reds are tested on me before I let them go to check (floored a guy once on a bad design)

My largest concern is if it's twisting and the player hafts, (perhaps due to inexperience as it's a newer fighter and subsequently if they make their own is there a chance the weapon might be substandard too?) wouldn't that go straight to the core? I've had this happen to me with a red weapon, luckily it was PVC and didn't bruise too much, but that's a fail point to me.

I honestly think we lowered the bar on that one, would you do this on a glaive?

[Outhro Youkker]

I like to make all my weapons. When I try different materials or make a build that I read somewhere; I get to learn what is the difference, what I did wrong when making it, and what I like/dislike about it and it never goes on my field until I fix it.
I have never worked with any weapons from anybody who sells them. I can't compare the foam of each until I actually build their weapons.

[Arrakis]

A little bit of tip wiggle is fine. If it's rotating up to 45* for like the last 2" of core (~4" of blade), no worries. If it's rotating like 90* for the last 10" of blade (~8" of core), problem.


One of my swords recently started wiggling a bit in a "coming partially dettached from the core" sort of way in the middle of the blade! Like, the tip is fine for the first 10" of the blade, then 10" of twistable blade, then another 6" of totally stable blade above the handle.

How do people feel about that?

[Blackhawk]

The twist and flex back is more a test to see if it is that fact that the foam has gone soft but is still attached to the core, this passes. Unattached core fails. Then there is the hitting, let us not forget that it has to pass all these things before you check it for hit. If you are checking weapons, don't puss out on the hit test. The most egregious errors in weapons check happen when the checker hits like a 5th grader.

We had a borderline weapon at Rag where the tip was in question, I looked around for someone I knew had the aim to pull it off. I asked PTQ to tip me in the arm, he did, and I failed the weapon. I think later we did the same thing, with a different weapon, and that weapon passed. It's **** common sense.

For the love of whatever you deem holy, if you are checking weapons, HIT HARD!!!

And for those of you who can make any weapon fail, learn to calibrate some weapons checking strikes.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

A little bit of tip wiggle is fine. If it's rotating up to 45* for like the last 2" of core (~4" of blade), no worries. If it's rotating like 90* for the last 10" of blade (~8" of core), problem.


One of my swords recently started wiggling a bit in a "coming partially dettached from the core" sort of way in the middle of the blade! Like, the tip is fine for the first 10" of the blade, then 10" of twistable blade, then another 6" of totally stable blade above the handle.

How do people feel about that?

As I only strike with the top 6" of my blade for the vast majority of my strikes, I would not have much of a problem with that. The blade should be stiff enough (if it has not broken down) that with the top and bottom portion of the blade FIRMLY attached, the middle should not be able to move out of the way enough for core to come past the foam. Shins, collar bones and forearms would be the main concern with this situation.

But this is just my opinion, not science.

Thrush
berserk

[Blackhawk]

I recall a time (not too long ago) when I hit Thrush with a sword that the core came unattached. He knew immediately with a sharp yell. "Ouch, ****! BH check that weapon". It was attached at the beginning of the fighting, but not anymore.

*hangs head* I should have been more careful, sorry Thrush.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Yeah, that was a month and some time ago, and I still have a pretty bad lump on my left shin... **** happens. At least I'm not a *... lol

Thrush
berserk

[Forkbeard]

I always fail weapons that are not attached to thier core. Always.
FB