Red Weapons

[ICARUS]

When Fighting with a Red weapon the one thing that will help you out alot when on you own is BACKPEDALLING.

[Ryoma]

Another thing that helps is to take advantage of the shield-breaking capabilities of a red sword. The hard part of that is not getting killed after that first red swing. The trick to this, as mentioned above by Icarus, is backpedalling after the first shot and then going in for another one. After that shot, just keep swinging. If you hit their shield before they drop it, it's an arm, and if you hit it again after that, it's death. As such, try to think in terms of "four reds to a shield = death."

Another trick is that wearing armor, particularly on the arms or torso, makes fighting red easier all around. My own armor consists of a full torso piece, a pair of bracers, and a leather tasset/skirt-ish thing that protects my upper legs. These have really improved my longevity on the field.

[Kaibashi Shintaro]

Uh.... backpedaling is fine, but I've noticed too many fighters red or otherwise, get too linear in motion.

Here's something else to try out.

Try moving on the Z-axis.... sidestepping.

[Hatchet]

.... Do some reading up on the Solothurner Fechtbuch
Half of the stances and shots are not practical[ie head shots] but, it does have some handy stances/shots that I find are useful in some situations.

Remember training is half mind and three forths body.

[Ryoma]

Uh.... backpedaling is fine, but I've noticed too many fighters red or otherwise, get too linear in motion.

Here's something else to try out.

Try moving on the Z-axis.... sidestepping.

One of my favorite red shots against sword-and-board is to rear back to the left and then do a right horizontal swing, and then, instead of trying to pull back, I sort of spin with it until I naturally turn back around to face my opponent.

This sounds like a goofy anime-wannabe move, but it actually works really well with some practice.

[The Great Gigsby]

When Fighting with a Red weapon the one thing that will help you out alot when on you own is BACKPEDALLING.

This is advice that I would only offer to my enemies. Backpedalling is a weak choice to make in almost every situation. Firstly, the action of being involved in a fight should be active. Backpedalling implies two things, you didn't win the engagement and you're unsure of how to continue the fight. I've always belonged to the "get there first with the most" school of thought. If you hit them where they ain't to begin with, you wouldn't ever need to step backwards. Instead of learning to back away quickly, your time should be spent on body mechanics and technique.

Backpedalling concerns me most because it diverts your attention. If you're moving backwards, then you're not looking where you're going which means that inevitably you'll collide with another person or the earth. If you're looking backwards as you backpedal, then you're not concentrating on the person in front of you who's probably intent on running you down.

If you're going to back out, look where you're moving and back out fast!

"four reds to a shield = death."

One swing to the torso gets the same result and takes less (physical) effort.

[Kaibashi Shintaro]

kit brings up a great point

DON'T AIM AT THEIR SHIELD

Go for their extremities and let them move the board around.

Also, don't be afraid to do retreating single-handed shots.
You'd be surprised how handy it is.

Example:

You do a heavy 2h swing, intent on disarming them/busting their shield
You over cork and feel yourself being taken by the momentum
Let go of the hilt with your top hand and step backwards are you spin
Aim low and you can usually pop in a leg shot

It's not a shot to use a lot, more of a desperation move.

Here's something else, try kicking the shield a bit. You have legs, use them. A swift low sweep to the corner of a punch created a beautiful opening.

[ICARUS]

My advice on backpedaling is not meant for long periods of time its to alow you to get another strike in. If you ever fought one-on-one with a sword and boarder you know they will rush towards you because for the most part in close combat your screwed unless you got a back up weapon.
some other advice is-
1. back up weapon
2. use your weapon as a tower shield.
3 Do repeative strike on an enemy Like 3 of the same strike on the 4th strike change the target or type of swing to throw them off.
4. Try not to stop the weapon from moving. It takes longer to start and stop a weapon from moving rather than changing its momentum.
5. Partner up.
6. On line battles never attack the guy your looking at. They see you looking at them and they're prepared to defend.
7.Know your weapon. Don't constantly change between reds. Know its length, range, types of strikes you can throw, forms that work good for it, and its momentum.
8. Having the abilitie to stab is almost essentail. A forward stab is somewhat harder to defend and makes your enemy concern about another way you can possibly attack.
9.Defend your arms. Although losing no limbs is optimal, if you must lose a limb let it be a leg. You can't swing a red one handed easily or effectively.
10. Learn to fight with a red 1 handed on both arms. Will increase your chances of survival when limbed.
Remember that most times a sword and boarder will win because he can defend your strikes.

[Georghiu Leonte]

Don't swing too low. If you have a red weapon on the ground it is easy to tie it up/press it against the ground and have someone kill you.

If you have a spear/glaive watch for people grabbing it. People forget. Whenever I am fighting florentine or sword and board in a line I will drop my sword and try grabbing the glaive. Why? Because they glaive has to go after me, leaving everyone else in the line open to attack the glaive. If the glaive defends against the other attackers? Most the time I have an opening to grab it.

[The Great Gigsby]

Do you have any specific tips on how to grapple against a two handed weapon? I'm usually pretty hesitant to grapple an object that another person has an already solid grip on, mostly because I'm not totally familiar with proper technique and don't think it's worth the risk of getting my arms torqued out. I'd like to learn more about open hand techniques since it's probably what I'm least comfortable fighting with.

[ICARUS]

most large red weapons will have some haft padding and then handle.
So if your trying to disarm- Wide space in between you hand when you grab the weapon and twist the weapon out of thiers.
If you want to slow/ stop thier swing try grabbing hafting.

[xiao]

lumberjacks make superb red fighters. a soothing blend of strength and exactness.

4 landed red shots = shield-shield-arm-body = win

longer weapon + quicker reaction speed + maintaining perfect striking distance = win

backshields + helmets + armor + impeccable defense = survival

[Georghiu Leonte]

As for technique? I would just try to grab the haft and hold the weapon down. I wouldn't do this when you don't have people on your side and I prefer to do it with a buckler on. It is hit or miss. I mainly do it hoping to distract the polearm wielder so that someone else on the line can get a hit in, but occasionally I can hold/move the polearm.

[Forkbeard]

Wham, sheild arm shoulder.
Wham, inside shield edge.
Wham, kidney.
Then you do the hokey-pokey and you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.
Keep you sword in tight and swing from your core.
FB

[XÆPLBNK]

Do you have any specific tips on how to grapple against a two handed weapon? I'm usually pretty hesitant to grapple an object that another person has an already solid grip on, mostly because I'm not totally familiar with proper technique and don't think it's worth the risk of getting my arms torqued out. I'd like to learn more about open hand techniques since it's probably what I'm least comfortable fighting with.

I do not fully understand the concept of grappling in belegarth. I've read that we're allowed to grapple, but we aren't allowed any joint locks/nerve striking techniques. I'm left wondering, what CAN we effectively do in a grapple then? If you apply a torquing motion to a limb (or to a glaive being held by someone), it is most definatley a joint-lock equivalent. Are we only allowed to attempt a linear, overpowering sumo-stlye grab & push?

[Georghiu Leonte]

Sorry I guess I am confused do you mean engage in a grapple with someone with a red, or as I was referring to grabbing a red weapon? I avoid grappling in Bele only because A, I am inexpirenced with grappling and B, most likely most bele fighters are as well and someone can get hurt. So what I was referring to is merely grabbing a glaive in a line fight and hoping someone else kills the person wielding it.

[XÆPLBNK]

Oh. Against a glaive, I suppose I can see someone grabbing the weapon above the striking edge. The problem with this is that either the grabbing person has to go somewhere with the grapple (disarming twist which has the ability to break writsts) or have the grapple broken (person twists glaive, which has the ability to break wrists).

Agaisnt a sword, the only option I can think of is to go for the hands, but then that leads to the same situation as above - either risk breaking something, or potentially be broken.

What are we allowed to do, in either of these situations?

[Izareth]

I have seen grappling effectively used many times on the field without people breaking limbs. I have seen people trrown to the ground, people bearhugged to hold them at bay, and I've seen weapons wrenched out of fighters' hands.

The chances of injury are always there, as this is a contact sport.

[Aegis]

i see one handed weapon grabs all the time, even if not to steal, to hold it off long enough to hit with another weapon or allow another person to hit them...

[XÆPLBNK]

People can't be thrown to the ground, it violates rule 3.6.3. No throws, unarmed strikes, or joint/nerve holds. If I was able to use a throw, I wouldn't be so curious as to * one is supposed to do in a grapple. People bearhugged means that if they're using any weapon with a reach shorter than 4' they can easily kill. Weapons being wrenched out of hands is something that I don't understand and would like clarification on though, as right now I cannot picture it happening without an illegal torquing motion, or an 18 year old pulling against an 8 year old. I don't so much care about injury, as I do the rules - and the rules are limiting and confusing as far as I understand...

Additionally, my apologies for highjacking the thread. If necessary I'll make a new thread to continue what has been brought up.

[Dabbanoth]

the weapon snatching rule is mainly partaining to hafted weapons, like spears, glaives, other polearms, or occaisionally axes or clubs, but most commonly spears just behind the head, when stabbed past a sheild wall

[Elebrim]

The grappling rules were designed to minimize risk while maximizing realism and playability (the magic 3 of Belegarth, as it were). That does not, however, mean that you should go into a grapple trying to avoid awkwardness or back out when the other person is at some minute risk. This is a contact sport; they signed a waiver and accepted that fact upon doing so.

So if they make a move on you and get completely wrapped around your leg during a grapple, they put themselves in a position to be screwed with. You can't throw them, but you can facilitate their falling past your leg to the ground by tackling them. You can't arm-lock someone, but if you are grappling with a sword and their arm ends up in an awkward position as a result, it isn't your fault. The difference falls between the natural progression of the grapple and breaking that natural progression to use a clearly illegal physical move. If someone is stupid and puts themselves in that positon during a grapple, you can and should take advantage of it. But if you put the person in that position, you are clearly breaking the rules.

Back on Red Weapons, however, two important keys are intelligence and tenacity. Be smart about the swings you take and the opponents you choose; it can mean the difference between killing them and losing the battle yourself. Tenacity is a second important factor. The best red fighters are not the people who run around on the edge of battle, pecking at limbs and shields here and there, but are the line-fighters and flankers who stand their ground and hack away alongside shieldmen and spearmen. They do not back down during the fight for their own safety, but instead continually force the enemy to change up tactics at the risk of their own skin. Xiao, Soth, and the like are all feared with a red weapon not only because of skill, but because they are confident, will maul you, and make sure you know it when they do.

EDIT: My spelling stinks today, sorry.

[xiao]

Xiao, Soth, and the like are all feared with a red weapon not only because of skill, but because they are confident, will maul you, and make sure you know it when they do.

EDIT: My spelling stinks today, sorry.

maul like snowtigers. raawr.

Red swords are so coooooool!!!

[Sothopoly]

And deir strudel is make vom puer haetred. Like a viscious tiger vom snowland!

[Spork]

Xiao, Soth, and the like are all feared with a red weapon not only because of skill, but because they are confident, will maul you, and make sure you know it when they do.

EDIT: My spelling stinks today, sorry.

maul like snowtigers. raawr.

Red swords are so coooooool!!!

Lmao.

I'm not much of a red fighter, so I'm going to ask a couple of questions in the red weapons thread:

1) Where, from experience, have most people placed their dominant hand? (Above other hand or below it)

2) Is it best to use the other hand as sort of a pivot near the pommel? While maneuvering with the other hand?

3) What are common mistakes made when first starting red? (I.E. fear of engaging, swinging for legs, etc.)

[ICARUS]

I get a few of these:
1) It depends on the strike your going to do. IE- IF your going to do a half swing into a stab I'll usually put my strong hand below my dominant but for most of the time I'll leave it above my weak hand.
2) I have found that using my hand to help pull the weapon gives you more strength and speed in you swing. It also keeps you strong arm from dying out early in the day.
3) Wandering off on their own. A lone red wielder is pretty much screwed on his own without extensive practice.

[The Great Gigsby]

1) Where, from experience, have most people placed their dominant hand? (Above other hand or below it)

2) Is it best to use the other hand as sort of a pivot near the pommel? While maneuvering with the other hand?

3) What are common mistakes made when first starting red? (I.E. fear of engaging, swinging for legs, etc.)

1) Most people naturally tend to place their dominant hand in back, as though they're fighting with a single handed weapon. I find myself using my off hand more as a guide for following through with a shot, and when I need a little finesse to pull a wrap or feint. I've seen folks place their dominant hand in front of their off hand, but I can't do it comfortably without also reversing my stance (which defeats the point). Different strokes.

2) I strike with my dominant arm and use the off hand to either continue the motion, or tweak it's direction. Same with a withdrawl. Footwork is important in directing force and keeping control of the fight.

3) The most common mistake I've seen is people forgetting how to use proper footwork to control the flow of a fight. Learn what stances work for you offensively and defensively, learn how to control the pace of a fight when it goes against your favor (usually when a shieldman gets in range to swing), and never be afraid to strike first in a fight since you have the range advantage.

IF your going to do a half swing into a stab I'll usually put my strong hand below my dominant but for most of the time I'll leave it above my weak hand.

The way I'm reading this, it seems like you have three hands. Mind clarifying what you just said?

[ICARUS]

Sorry- Strong hand below the weak hand. then I use my body to swing the weapon and use my arms/ body to stop the weapon abruptly into a swing. Works well against people without shields.

[xiao]

You guys are all right! It's all about knowing when to "pull the trigger"

I'm dominant right handed. For shield breaking/red shots and close quarters fighting I have my right hand choked high and the left hand gripping the pommel.

When I'm range fighting I switch it up and have the right hand on the pommel for those blue distance shots.

The biggest mistake I see? people hitting with the flat! (ouch!) Soth makes every one of my swords with an oblong grip so I can feel where the blade edge is

Mind your sword! There is no faster way to break someones knuckles than with a failing red sword.. common problem with foam breakdown. ...sweet spots (super compressed from impact), missing chunks/tears in the foam (from catching on chain/ plate armor), blown out tips (exposed core!!! DANGER!), covers shredding on chainmail seems to cause tearing the most.

If your core snaps it's fairly obvious... and quite pleasing *CRAACK!*

[ICARUS]

I gotta agree with Xaio on a couple of things
1.

backshields + helmets + armor + impeccable defense = survival

backshields will defainetly help you live longer.
2.

You guys are all right! It's all about knowing when to "pull the trigger"

Its hard to say what is right in this game. Each person can develop thier own style of fighting.
Really when fighting with reds the only thing that you can't do egnough of is to fight/practice. The more you practice the better you be.

[Cyric]

It's been said before, but Stick and Move.

[ICARUS]

Another tip- Disarm your opponent.
You have the big weapon attack make them try to block your weapon preffarably with theirs. With any luck the momentum of you swing will knock thier weapon out of their hands. Then chase them down and kill them.

[Georghiu Leonte]

Another tip- Disarm your opponent.
You have the big weapon attack make them try to block your weapon preffarably with theirs...

Do not block a spear thrust with the flat of a blue sword, one handed. I did that last practice (I don't remember if I intentionally did it) and my wrist still hurts. Leverage FTW

[Sothopoly]

I try to switch my hands up based on the arm dominance of the person im fighting. Against a lefty, left hand should be on top, right on bottom. It eliminates their quickest shot to your arm. For fighting a righty, fight right hand up and left down.

[ICARUS]

Have a medium sized buckler.
I have a 16" buckler that I'm going to begin practiceng fighting red with. I've heard it helps you survive longer.

[xiao]

I use a buckler with an elbow pad bolted on as straps, it sits real nice on the elbow and flexes with your swings. try it on your dominant arm.

[ICARUS]

So the edge of the buckler ends on your elbow. Correct? I was trying mine so it sits right on the shoulder on my left arm. Its not my dominant arm but most times I lose it first and no one tries to rush my right side.

[xiao]

if you look at an elbow pad, strip the plastic off, bolt it dead center to the buckler, you'll have 4 straps all together, 2 are fixed and 2 are velcro. one set holds around the bicep, the other around the forearm so it sits on top of the elbow like a standard strap shield. if you use it on your dominant arm you're natually defending yoursle ffrom some common shot and arrows

[Izareth]

bump for Toi'wei.

[XÆPLBNK]

Y'know, words are nice, but a lot ends up getting lost in translation. I hear what I can only imagine to be impeccable wisdom, but I can get nearly nothing out of it - are there any sites/videos that can illustrate some of the principles being expounded upon here? I don't understand why one would take a buckler on their dominant arm unless they use their dominant arm in front - I've always used my left arm and leg in front in my fighting stances. Could anybody show the stances/techniques they use to fight? Even better, could anybody make an instructional video for the Belegarth Wiki?

I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one to greatly appreciate it.

[Drakkar/Hohiro]

I remember blocking a full force glaive swing with a short broadsword. Big mistake! My wrist never forgave me to this day. The pain wasn't worth the victory over the glaive bearer.

I will use a red sword once in a while, and backpedaling can be useful, but it is not always the best choice. I like to feint a lot. I can make most people think I am going for a shield break, or an arm shot, and then I curve it down at their leg at the last possible second. Doesn't work all the time, but it succeeds more than it fails.

When it come to a red vs my shield, I usually pull back and let them hit air with their shield breaker swing, then quickly charge in for the kill. I have not had the opportunity to fight many skilled red wielders out there. I am sure there are plenty, and I relish the chance to fight one.

[Drakkar/Hohiro]

I remember blocking a full force glaive swing with a short broadsword. Big mistake! My wrist never forgave me to this day. The pain wasn't worth the victory over the glaive bearer.

I will use a red sword once in a while, and backpedaling can be useful, but it is not always the best choice. I like to feint a lot. I can make most people think I am going for a shield break, or an arm shot, and then I curve it down at their leg at the last possible second. Doesn't work all the time, but it succeeds more than it fails.

When it come to a red vs my shield, I usually pull back and let them hit air with their shield breaker swing, then quickly charge in for the kill. I have not had the opportunity to fight many skilled red wielders out there. I am sure there are plenty, and I relish the chance to fight one.

[Dabbanoth]

One thing that i find invaluable as a red fighter is its potential to blue, you can pull leg shots that people arent ready, or able to defend, because you either throw them while they think they are out of range, or you over reach their leg movement.

Once someone is legged, just press your reach advantage

Another great way to improve your red fighting is to go one-on-one with an aggressive or skilled sheildman. You will lose over and over, but it will make you better faster than anything else. A red fighters biggest challenge is a sheildman, but its also their biggest opportunity to shine.

On the note of backpedaling, circular motions are great. If i am fighting a person with their sheild on their left, arm, i will back up to their sheild side, or just roll that direction while they chase me, it lessens their range, and leaves their sheild, or sometimes a beautiful side open to you.

[Thomas MacFinn]

I started to reply to this thread but find myself seconding everything Dag just said. Good post, quick and to the point.