Parry and Punchblocks

[Kage]

Zombie thread but what the hell; since it's been resurrected...

1.) If you want to "punch block" try to do it with the forte of the blade. That would be the 3 to 5 inches above the handle. Can be used effectively against most swung attacks. Bright side to this is it can save your hands from some pretty nasty red hits. Yes I still wear MMA gloves for added protection for the just in case moments.

2.) Stabs are really easy to parry with the same part of the blade. Just a twist of the wrist to one side or the other can throw the stab off.

And if you want to do MMA gloves and want them to look cool ask Plithut to help you out. He's got sexy gloves.

http://www.facebook.com/index.php?lh=f6012cc04e4a6345a1bfff76646e838e&#!/photo.php?pid=30171421&id=138900356&fbid=506781809420

[Arrakis]

Two things: Get a pair of MMA Gloves or, if those don't do it for you, lacrosse gloves (designed for getting hit with unpadded sticks!).

AND

Try to learn to block with the pommel, the handle, and the bottom 6" of the blade, not your hand.

[The Great Gigsby]

Belegarth isn't safe. Learn what your limits are and decide what risks you're willing to take. Nothing you do, short of staying off the field altogether is going to guarantee your safety (and even then...).

Arrakis is giving some solid advice. FWIW, I wear the century MMA gloves and haven't had any hand injuries since. If you do pick up some MMA gloves, make sure the thumb has some padding on it or add some on.

[Æthelric]

I think the important thing to remember is that we fight in this game. If you don't take necessary precautions, you're going to get hurt sooner or later. Even with padding on our weapons, there's still a lot that can happen (like get rapped on the knuckles by somebody's unpadded hilt).

If you don't want to deal with the occasional welt, jammed finger, or sometimes more serious hand injuries then you should definitely get some padded gloves of some sort.

I shouldn't even have to mention groin protection in all of this.

[Samhain Crawford]

Edited for redundancy.

[No'Vak]

Future reference, you can delete a post by clicking the x on the corner of it.

[Drackonius]

Since it's here, I'll add my opinion.

I highly advise against punchblocking, especially against anyone who is known to hit hard.

My method of dealing with punchblockers: Hit harder. If you are purposefully throwing your hand in the direction of a shot I'm throwing at you, I'm going to start swinging much harder. It's an unsafe method of blocking, and it cheeses the rules till their moldy. I have knocked weapons out of people's hands because of this.

Parrying can work, but it requires you to think fast.

[No'Vak]

Since it's here, I'll add my opinion.

I highly advise against punchblocking, especially against anyone who is known to hit hard.

My method of dealing with punchblockers: Hit harder. If you are purposefully throwing your hand in the direction of a shot I'm throwing at you, I'm going to start swinging much harder. It's an unsafe method of blocking, and it cheeses the rules till their moldy. I have knocked weapons out of people's hands because of this.

Parrying can work, but it requires you to think fast.

How is it cheesing the rules?

[Drackonius]

How is it cheesing the rules?

From my point of view, if someone gets hit in the hand, you'd think it would count as an arm. I can of course understand why it doesn't, but it still annoys me when people use their hand as a free shield as long as they are holding something.

But again, I've found my solution to it.

[No'Vak]

Trying to injure them nice.

It specifically says hand on weapon is weapon so it really isn't cheese unless you just don't agree with it.

[Drackonius]

Trying to injure them nice.

It specifically says hand on weapon is weapon so it really isn't cheese unless you just don't agree with it.

If I was trying to injure someone, I would keep swinging after they called dead. No I'm not trying to injure them. Teach them, yes.

It's more I don't agree with it, but I do understand why it works. However, that doesn't mean it's smart to punchblock everything thrown at you. I personally don't, because I know how much it can **** up your hands (I have experience with this pain). Mind you, I do try explaining to people why pbing is bad to do, it's just that sometimes an actual situation where it arises is much more enlightening.

[Arrakis]

No, you're definitely trying to injure them.

"Herp derp I hit people who I think are punchblocking incredibly hard while trying to turn their knuckles into paste on purpose, but I'm not trying to hurt them or nothin lol"

You **** idiot.

[No'Vak]

No, you're definitely trying to injure them.

"Herp derp I hit people who I think are punchblocking incredibly hard while trying to turn their knuckles into paste on purpose, but I'm not trying to hurt them or nothin lol"

You **** idiot.

Wow I agree with you for once.

[Big King Jimmy]

Besides, as long as your using a blue, I'm pretty convinced that you CAN'T swing hard enough to hurt me in a punch block. If you actually succeed I'd say you're using a failing sword, not only can you injure me but you manage to do so through a piece of safety gear.

[Tiercel]

Besides, as long as your using a blue, I'm pretty convinced that you CAN'T swing hard enough to hurt me in a punch block. If you actually succeed I'd say you're using a failing sword, not only can you injure me but you manage to do so through a piece of safety gear.

For one swing being punchblocked, you're *probably right. But when you're going to be fighting all day, and you're blocking five, six, shots in a row on an average opponent before you get your kill, it can add up. Kinda like playing bloody knuckles for six hours, except you keep rotating in fresh opponents. Wasting your energy so you can swing really hard at someone's fingers isn't going to make you a better fighter, nor does it prove anything to the other person except that you've got a bad attitude. I'm following the advice given, and have been blocking with the material directly above the grip instead of with my fist itself. The motions I practiced with when I was PB'ing aren't changed much at all and it's a lot less tiring on my hand. I'm still not giving it the 3-5 inches recommended, but there's no reason why I couldn't keep adjusting my motions until I get that margin. A lot of shots still hit my hands, but it's no longer the same as backhanding an incoming strike, like it was before.

MMA gloves proved to be a solid investment, by the way. Test out the padding with a T-ball bat on your knuckles before you leave the store. The "best" pair in the store had a blind spot where the padding was insufficient that I didn't find until I tested them out w/ the bat. I've got a pair similar to the ones Slagar recommended and they're great.

Edit: Also, back to the original quote, it really does only take one hard swing catching a grip that has started to shift to dislocate some fingers.

[NessiePop]

FWIW, almost all of my pre-Bel experience with sword-fighting in general was with sticks. Plain, heavy, wooden sticks, usually cut by me from a nearby tree. My mind rejects the very notion of PBs as ludicrous. While I agree that it shouldn't count as arm, I also think it should be, to some extent discouraged, among noobs in particular. But that's just my two cents.

[The Great Gigsby]

You don't punchblock with your hand unless you:

a. really know what you're doing
b. don't mind pain or putting your fingers at risk
c. have decently padded gloves

Otherwise, you should be "punch blocking" with your handle, blade, or some combination of blade, handle, and hand. I try to punch block with the top third of my handle if I'm choked down, or the very bottom of my blade if I'm choked up. I'm pretty sure most people do this.

[Slagar]

Let's try this again.

1. Wear good padded gloves.
2. Block with the strongest part of your guard, which is your hand itself. No lever means no rotational force exerted.
3. Hit the other person, win the fight.
4. Profit.

Yes, you will hurt yourself punch-blocking without gloves. You give up a competitive advantage by not punch-blocking. So wear gloves. The end.

**** ****.

[varadin]

Besides, as long as your using a blue, I'm pretty convinced that you CAN'T swing hard enough to hurt me in a punch block. If you actually succeed I'd say you're using a failing sword, not only can you injure me but you manage to do so through a piece of safety gear.

People CAN hit that hard, like break your wrist through a bracer type hard. Is it required? not really but it is possible even with a passing weapon. I can only think of maybe 5 people in the sport who do though.

[Titan G]

Let's try this again.

1. Wear good padded gloves.
2. Block with the strongest part of your guard, which is your hand itself. No lever means no rotational force exerted.
3. Hit the other person, win the fight.
4. Profit.

Yes, you will hurt yourself punch-blocking without gloves. You give up a competitive advantage by not punch-blocking. So wear gloves. The end.

**** ****.

to bring back around an an old football saying, players who deliver hits never get hurt.

what this simply means is that when you swing your sword at me im sure as hell gonna punchblock it. not only am i trying to block it im trying to break your **** sword with my fist. this isn't out of an maliciousness but if i do that my hands hurt less (even with gloves).

now will you stupid **** saying not to punch block go play a larp, the stick jocks will continue to develop as fighters while you go roleplay.

sidenote as an adendum to my previous statement, notice that the stick jocks are the ones who win at the end of the fight? then that means they are the ones who should be giving advice on fighting.

stop making me agree with slagar * it, it hurts me emotionally.

[Michael]

Slagar and Titan have covered this in detail. Not much more needs to be said. I will add that if I am proactive in my blocking (and I am), you wont get that full wind up to damage my knuckles that you are looking for. You putting extra effort into 'putting some mustard' on your shot only makes it easier to block proactively before you can get full force on it, leaving my pviot closer to you and my return shot harder for you to block or dodge. So while you arethinking about 'teaching me not to handblock with pain' with the dead, I will be moving on to the next living fighter.

And yes, of course I use safety gear on my hands. Doesn't everyone?

[NessiePop]

The stick-jocks will progress as boffer players, not fighters.

[Soo Ma Tai]

If you think blocking with your hand makes you a better fighter you are wrong, it makes you a better player of ~this~ game. A fighter is someone who looks at the whole picture, and knows better than to form habits that would get you killed in real life.

[Titan G]

a fighter is someone that goes and receives fighter training. this is a sport played by nerds and retired/semi active jocks with an interest in fantasy. if you'd like to become a fighter go take some sambo or krav maga classes and then some sharpshooting/advance firearm classes. this is in NOT a martial art. nothing is truly codified, we do not have a basis for training and this does not make you capable of standing up to someone in a true world physical altercation. this is a boffer sport, plain and simple. in the real world you win fights based primarily on two things, first combat training in a proven combat system, which have a basis in old world martial arts such as wrestling, silat, Chinese long fist boxing, muay thai and bare knuckle boxing, and secondly be big. sorry small guys in a physical altercation the bigger man always has an advantage over the little guy unless the little guy has a distinct advantage in the first category.

punch blocking will make you a better FOAM fighter, and since this forum is for the production of better FOAM fighters i say again, you should punch block.

[Tiercel]

So we're judging the legitimacy of the technique based on the likelihood of usefulness in a real-world fight.

Is parrying a beer bottle swung toward your face with another glass object really safer than putting your hand in the way of it? How often do you get into lead pipe vs. lead pipe situations?

[Soo Ma Tai]

Grav- Totally right, the winner of a fight is often determined by who has the most experience/training and who is bigger. You are correct that better training can overcome a size difference. I have been a practicioner of Martial Arts for over 25 years, I am belted in Kenpo, I have also studied Shao Lin weapons, Kali/escrima (Tirisi and Inosanto), and small amounts of various other arts. I am only saying that, though punch blocking is great for our game, and increases your chance of winning on our field, it develops a habit which, in real life, can cause you serious harm. Though I have never been in a leap pipe altercation, I have had to defend myself from both a baseball bat wielding guy and a knife wielding attacker. In both situations I got hurt, yes, but it could have been much worse. Seriously, what we do here is more than you will ever get in a class room for escrima. Because you never get to the reality of full speed things coming at your face in a classroom situation. You don't face the randomness of a noob flailing about with a knife. Or someone swinging for the fences.

What we do is not a martial art, you are right, but it is great training for an armed altercation. Much better than anything I've ever gotten out of a class. It allows you to actually apply what you have learned in a full speed type of environment.

Tier- I never said that punch blocking wasn't a legitimate technique here in belegarth. Only that it develops a bad habit when those skill are suddenly transferred into the real world. Just like a back knuckle to the top of the head scores you points in tournament fighting, you still woulnd want to do that IRL, it would only hurt your hand. By all means, keep punch blocking in bel, it's a completely legit thing to do. All I am saying is for those of us who use this game as a sort of training ground, might want to block properly with the weapon, instead of with the hand. That's all.

I think it's great that y'all think you'll never be in a situation where you have to defend yourself from an attacker with a weapon. I never though I would either, till it happened, twice. Once in Los Angeles, once in little ole Missoula, MT. It can happen anywhere, usually when you least expect it.

[Titan G]

i agree with you soo i just dont see this as combat training. i personally prefer muat thai and BJJ myself and i have been in many physical altercations. i just don't see bele as training. all i saying is that in the confines of boffer sport punch blocking is an essential for those that want to be top tier fighters. i personally prefer to take all of my blocks on the upper 4 inches of my weapon right where the blade starts after the handle and hilt because i have the best selection of shots in my personal * from that vantage point. however most of the time in the split second of decision and strike application that is the hall mark of a quality fighter in my opinion im not always going to get that portion of my sword in that exact position. as my hand eye cordination is fairly good from years of combat sports and at this point a good 7 years of foam fighting challenging the best in the biz my hand ends up there more often than not.

if you are a quality enough fighter that you can get the parry/cross block more often thats fine and if you choose to do so go for it. however in my opinion the majority of fighters in the game who are successful most often at the national level in combat alone DO punch block. I also have to say at the end of the day i truly feel if you ever depend your life on skills learned in belegarth you will be bleeding out at the end of the altercation.

play how you want to play but if you want to win ( and i personally ALWAYS want to win, i'm not in it for the historical accuracy i just like fighting and winning within our system) then you SHOULD punch block. it is one of the most effective block techniques in a belegarth fighters * for those that view fighting as a game of skill and violence.

[Soo Ma Tai]

To me Bel fighting is like real weapons combat in the same way that tournament point fighting is like a real fist fight. Neither one is a true simulation of real combat, but you can certainly learn things there you wouldn't learn elsewhere. Even MMA fighting isn't like a real street brawl, once there are rules it's not the street anymore. Though Bel may not be "training" per se', I feel it's gives a great advantage over those who have never done anything, or have only studied MA, but never had the opportunity to really apply what they have learned. I got lots of info from Escrima fighitng which I incorporate into my Bel, but it took a couple of years to really integrate it and learn how to move and block and timing and all that. Though it may not be systemized yet, there are several people working on systemizing their individual styles. I am one of those people.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Actually I know that Sir Kyrian has a system he uses to teach people how to fight, I know others teach on a system , or at least they have specific techniques or methods they teach, so I guess you could say that, though Bel is not a martial art unto itself, there are several Belegrim who have made it so for themselves.

[Slagar]

This isn't fighting. In a real fight against trained opponents most of the guys on a bel field, including some of the best fighters, would be dog food. I've had 5 years of hapkido training, and done lots of informal mma work with my brothers, one of whom is a sponsored pro at this point. While I'm nobody's idea of a champion fighter, I'm well aware of what 'punch-blocking' would be good for in the real world.

If your goal in this game is something other than to become the most succesful Bel fighter you can, then almost none of this forum applies to you. Otherwise, buy good gloves and punch block.

[Arrakis]

Bel is good combat training only inasmuch as learning to be aggressive and strike with intent is important in a fight (which it is, but it's not going to make you a good fighter by itself). Practice good body mechanics and you'll be able to hit somebody with a baseball bat or metal pipe or something really hard if you ever need to, I guess.

[Titan G]

Actually I know that Sir Kyrian has a system he uses to teach people how to fight, I know others teach on a system , or at least they have specific techniques or methods they teach, so I guess you could say that, though Bel is not a martial art unto itself, there are several Belegrim who have made it so for themselves.

i knew this but it had escaped me so credit where credits due you are correct soo.

slagar what have i told you about agreeing with me?

when you get down to it soo's approach is perfectly reasonable. i don't veiw bele as combat training but then again im a giant and i've fist fought vokor on several occasions so i don't really personally feel the need for combqat traing against 95% of the population, my hulk like strength can pretty much carry me through on that front.

what i really wanted to stress was the historical and roleplay players who were telling not to block with hands. those people have no place in giving advice in this forum. our combat is in no way related to medeival or any other historical combat. if you like to play like that i invite you to come get your * kicked by literally everyone i know in the game including myself. i don't like when an accepted part of the combat system we play under is cast of by moronic roleplay/historic reenactors. if you wish to play that feel free but i beleive you shouldn't be giving advice on FIGHTING as i have never ever met a fighter who's main goal in the game was reenactment or roleplay that could be me,or anyone else wearing red and black.

[Slagar]

Sorry Graavish.

Punch-blocking is stupid, Block with the tip of your sword, that's how they did it historically! Read up on your Capoferro, you stupid people. Lolz.

Better?

[Arrakis]

Hey now! There are lots of things in historical fencing that apply to our sport. Go fight a competent redsword fighter who knows his masterstrikes, his Liberi, and his Ringeck and call me a liar.

But there are also a lot of things that work great in Bel that work poorly or worse in historical fencing and plenty of stuff that works okay or even great in historical fencing that doesn't work well or even AT ALL in Bel.

[bo1]

i use big words, * * * *, big words * *.

this thread is funny to me.

[Titan G]

ok bo i'm confused is that you saying we are * or saying you are * at your computer?

[NessiePop]

I've gone back and read the entire thread, and Titan, you seem to have changed your opinion fairly drastically in the course of things. You've gone from sensible to out-and-out dogging those of us who like to pretend that maybe, just maybe, the sport where the equipment is referred to by the names of weapons might possibly have something to do with combat. What happened?

[Big King Jimmy]

I'm sorry, I don't remember "flat blade" "Round sword" "Tube Sword" "Speed bat" or "Punch and Pie" having anything to do with historical combat.

We give them the names they do because they are they are pallid representations of real life weapons in a sport. Footballs are still called pig skins, they aren't made from pigs. Belegarth has about as much to do with real combat as Karate is a lethal marshal art. You can block with whatever part of the blade you want, but at the end of the day the better combat advantage comes from blocking with your hand, albeit at least I can admit that it could be argued against.

[Tiercel]

I'm sorry, I don't remember "flat blade" "Round sword" "Tube Sword" "Speed bat" or "Punch and Pie" having anything to do with historical combat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwirWWnzJKM

Well now you will remember the role of the pie in historical combat.


*};-

[No'Vak]

Punch N' Pie

Possibly the way to have the most fun fighting ever.

[NessiePop]

Karate, when used by a practitioner who knows what in the hell he's doing is most certainly a lethal martial art. The marshal arts are a couple of forums down, if memory serves.

[No'Vak]

I see what you did there.

[Titan G]

i evolved as a fighter, this thread is pretty old for one thing and im a better fighter now than i was then. you can ask pretty much anyone. when i posted that i dont even think i was abf

[Arrakis]

The best way to block isn't "with your hand", it's to have a good solid defense and allow their sword to impact on your defense wherever, so long as it doesn't hit you. That way you don't have to move your guard around all over the place like some kind of flailing newb trying to put your hand directly in the way of the shot.
Or, I mean, continue to do that so I can just stutter high to draw your hand up and then hip shot you.

Either way.

[NessiePop]

I see what you did there.

I thought it was amusing.

[Alric Lykaios]

Personally I lean towards blocking shots rather than parrying, my speed isn't the greatest yet, and it's a lot less thinking on my part to block their shot with my weapon see the * look on their face and hope to god that I don't die in the next second.

[Tiercel]

Personally I lean towards blocking shots rather than parrying, my speed isn't the greatest yet, and it's a lot less thinking on my part to block their shot with my weapon see the * look on their face and hope to god that I don't die in the next second.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

[Alric Lykaios]

Personally I lean towards blocking shots rather than parrying, my speed isn't the greatest yet, and it's a lot less thinking on my part to block their shot with my weapon see the * look on their face and hope to god that I don't die in the next second.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

Which part would you like for me to elaborate on? My block/parry definition, or something else entirely?

[No'Vak]

I think he was being a smart * because you resed a dead topic.

[Alric Lykaios]

Ah ok, I probably should have looked at the date before posting anyways