florentine

[Aerik]

at my last practice was the first time that i have ever fought florentine and i found it alot easier than how i was fighting before, so i was wondering if anyone could maybe give me some advice on how to better my florentine fighting?

[Kyrian]

Just a little background: I prefer fighting with two longswords, usually around 32" to 33" in blade length. I've been fighting two-sword pretty much since I started fighting about 16 years ago. I started with short swords (about 18" to 24" blade length) but during the 3 years I spent fighting in Amtgard, I learned how to fight with longswords. Here are a few things I've picked up along the way:

1. Invest time in learning how to fight with other weapon styles, especially weapon and shield, spear, and red. These are probably the weapon styles you will most encounter in Belegarth. You don't necessarily have to become expert at any of these. It's mainly for you to gain experience in the basic attacks and defenses of each style. Once you understand how those other styles work, you can better attack and defend against them.
2. This is my personal preference but it’s up to you to determine if it works: Build the longest swords you can wield effectively. This may be a process of trial and error. While short two-sword is an extremely fast style, it requires you to get "up close and personal" with your opponent. Whenever possible, I prefer engaging an opponent outside his or her effective attack range.
3. When building weapons for the two-weapon style, I always build them in pairs. I've found that I have a better chance of building similarly weighted and balanced swords.
4. Use the same length of weapon for each hand. This is, again, a personal preference. Using a shorter weapon is faster for blocking or attacking. However, your effective attack range for using both weapons is defined by the shorter weapon.
5. Use both weapons with the swords held normally. Some fighters prefer fighting in the two-weapon style with their off-hand weapon held pommel up. While this can be effective for blocking, it can limit the types of attacks you can use. Wrist-snap stabs (where you snap the wrist up as you bring the sword tip forward) aren't effective against armor. I've also found that I don't have good control or give good, solid hits when executing draw/slicing cuts. Also, since there often isn’t a definitive thump during a draw/slicing cut, a person is less likely to take the shot.
6. It helps to get a buckler or back shield to defend against missile weapons. Know where the archers are on the field. Florentiners, along with reds, are often arrow magnets.
7. You have two weapons. Both can be used for attack or defense. Many people I've seen transitioning to two-sword from shield and weapon often use the off-hand (where their shield used to be) as a shield only. Using both weapons for attacking allows you to engage your opponent from multiple angles. Against a person wielding a shield and weapon, you can use multiple attacks to force him or her to move the shield in a certain direction and create an opening.
8. Practice! Practice! Practice! You have to develop muscle memory for each arm for both attack and defense. Constant repetition and patience are critical especially in developing your off-hand. A couple of techniques I've used for practice are the heavy bag and visualization/shadow boxing. I would practice hitting a heavy bag using different combinations and moving around the bag while constantly striking. In visualization/shadow boxing, I would imagine the different possible attacks/defenses (See #1) that a fighter might use and imagine how I would respond to them. Then I would execute the movements.
9. Study the Filipino martial arts. It's basically stickfighting. The philosophy is that you learn how to fight with rattan sticks and then you can transfer that experience to unarmed combat or to any other weapon you might use. The drills are great for learning different two-weapon patterns and for developing your coordination. Their drills also help you to effectively integrate your attacks, defenses, and footwork. In particular, there are patterns called sinawali that can be practiced with a partner.
Here are a few links with some general information:

http://alliancemartialarts.com/sinawalimap.htm

http://alliancemartialarts.com/sinawalicombat.htm

http://www.geocities.com/kalipages/Sinawali.html

Here’s a video actually showing a sinawali pattern:

http://www.modern-arnis.de/video/sinawali.mpg

and a web page with additional Filipino martial arts videos:

http://www.martialartsresource.com/abass/_videos.html

10. Combos. Use multiple attacks when fighting with two weapons. Single attacks while fighting two-weapon really don’t utilize one of the style’s strengths, namely the ability to attack from several different angles within a short span of time.
11. Wear arm and leg armor. Your extremities are much more vulnerable when fighting with two weapons. While mobility is one of your key assets, arm and leg armor are also helpful especially in large melees.
12. When wielding two weapons, try to avoid swinging both on the same level. If one is swinging towards the upper body of your opponent, your other weapon should be held low. This reduces the possibility of both weapons being pinned or trapped by a shield or other weapon.
13. Avoid holding both weapons at the same height above the ground. If you have both weapons at the same level, a single swipe across both weapons can knock them aside just enough for your opponent to follow up.
14. Footwork. You can't rely on a shield to block blows. In addition to using your swords for blocking, you have to recognize how good footwork can keep you from getting hit.
15. A couple of combos:

a. 3-shot combo (tends to be more effective against rounds than other shield types)
1. RH (right hand) cross to opponent’s right shoulder. The normal reflex action is to move the shield towards the right to block the shot.
2. Follow immediately with LH (left hand) attack to opponent’s lower right leg. Your opponent’s shield will normally drop or else he’ll be hit in the leg.
3. RH is brought back to attack opponent’s lower left leg.

b. Counter-swing combo
1. Opponent swings down towards your left shoulder.
2. Block with LH. Immediately swing with RH towards forearm of opponent’s sword arm.
3. Follow-up with RH or LH attack to legs.

[Georghiu Leonte]

Practice, Practice, Practice.

IMHO opinion, any fighter can grab a tower and a blue/flail but florentine is definitely harder, especially if you have a realm that has a lot of people using shields. I have fought primarily with florentine since I started fighting and I may not be great yet I have learned a lot more about this sport than if I just stuck with something I was better with.

Learn how to feign/counter-strike. People open themselves up when they attack you, especially if they are using a large shield, learn how to exploit it. Unfortunately my speed isn't their but I am getting better at taking advantage of this.

People use light punch shields, exploit that. I am a decent sized guy and most of the people that practice where I am from are not as big as me, and not as strong. So if I know they have a light punch I try to power through it, I try to move it in one direction to either hit the newly opened space or wait and hope they over correct and hit their opposite side.

I will add more later.

[Tren]

Your goal should be to become fluid enough in your shots and combos to the point that you can just keep swinging when fighting a shield. Every shot should have a purpose and force to it, but you want to utilize your ability to swing more often and keep them on the defensive.

[Kaibashi Shintaro]

This is a bit out of vogue, but don't forget something that I've found really handy. Your feet. I'm talking the occasional well placed kick to a shield. A good one is just a low outside to inside sweep to the corner of a tower punch, if you do it right it'll usually tweak the shield enough to give you time for a sweet leg shot.

[Dabbanoth]

I recently took up some florentine, and fell in love, i have more fun with it, but most of my shots are still made with my dominant weapon hand, i was wondering if anyone else thought it would be a good idea to go single-blue lefty to improve my left hand in florentine

[Olos]

I heard somewhere (could have been here, maybe a video) that if you go offhand christian florentine (your main hand weapon pointed downward, it can help you use the offhand a bit more while still developing the coordination.

[XÆPLBNK]

I've been doing florentine since I started in Belegarth (and many years before I found this, as well). I find it to be the most entertaining style to use on the battlefield, the most intimidating, the most attention drawing, and the most fluid and stylish. I believe it is not the most effective in a field, but I'm beginning to think that it is in one-on-one fights. So long as there is ample room to move and one target to focus on, I've found great success. HOWEVER, I'm always looking for something to help me improve (I'm not trying to brag).

Does anybody have any videos or tips (besides Kyrian's extensive and very useful list)?

Also, using my limited expertise: Daggonoth, I don't think that single blue will particularly help you develop your florentine. I believe (though I'm not sure) that your problem is that you use your left hand extensively as a blocking hand, using your sword as a shield instead of a weapon. My suggestion is to change your stance so you simply have your right foot and right hand forward. You'll find yourself blocking with your right hand and striking with your left, and then following up with your right due to your nature. Just changing your stance should help you develop the use of your left hand.

EDIT: Don't think that I mean for you to permanently change your stance, this is just a temporary switch to help you develop.

[Kenneth]

I am of the complete opposite mentality. I trained substantially with single blue left hand after single blue right hand. That allowed me to focus on doing each side correctly. Then I put both hands together.

When I stand, I stand left foot forward against a right handed swordsman. When I fight a left handed swordsman, I stand right foot forward. I block and counter-swing primarily with whatever foot I have forward.

I've found the greatest weakness of most florentine fighters is that they neither block nor swing with their off hand. Lack of blocking tends to get them killed more often than lack of swinging.

Reasoning: (I'm fighting a righty)
Standing right foot forward and blocking with my right hand has the unfortunate effect of putting both my swords on the same side, or else forcing my arms to cross. Neither of which is a very good thing.

Generally speaking, there is a limit to how low an opponents crossover shot can be. Hence, the amount of angles an opponent can attack from is also limited, so the side blocking a crossover shot tends to require a little less defense. Further, a crossover shot automatically increases the distance an opponent has to swing, which allows you to get away with crossing your own a little bit in order to block a crossover shot.

Therefore, it only makes sense to block shots that come from the right with the right, and shots that come from the left with the left.

Why left foot forward against righties:
I fight left foot forward simply because if I only had a sword in my left hand, it would be awkward to stand with my right foot forward.

If my left hand blocks my left and my right hand blocks my right, I would far prefer that the side with stronger defense blocks the side my opponent has the least distance to swing, namely a shot to my left side. If I stand right foot forward and block left swings with my left hand, my left hand is crossing half the distance of my body to block a shot, which automatically slows the speed I can block. I would rather avoid having the shot that requires the least distance for my opponent to throw require the most distance for me to block.

Just my thoughts.


---Gosh this is difficult to explain in text.---

[Dragonheart91]

One of the things that I've found most helpfull from florentine, is the ability I gained with my left-hand. When my opponent takes out my right arm, I don't get weaker, I usually get faster. Because I have trained florentine, both hands are equal. I win VERY often (maybe ~30% of my kills?) because after losing my right arm my opponent is caught off guard by my sudden increase in speed left hand only (without that big slow shield). I occasionally suicide my right arm intentionally or switch hands mid-combat, just to intentionally speed-up especially if there is a discarded sword nearby to pick-up and florentine. (My left hand does hit weaker than my right though, and some people ignore my left hand hits depending.)

[Arrakis]

Hey. I see you're new here. That's fine.

Just check the date of the last post on a topic before you post on it. A week old is more than fine, a month or two, peachy. A year? Pushing it, probably.

No worries though. Welcome to the intarwebs.

[Dragonheart91]

First of all, it's less than a year old, and that seems to be the going age of death on this forum. Second, I usually go by page more than date: This was on the second page, therefore I still consider it valid regardless of the date.

[Arrakis]

... Ok...


Well, just so you know, most people would have lolled, trolled you as a threadcromancer, and that would have been that. I was just trying to let YOU know that the age of this topic was pushing it. Just start a new thread.

[Dabbanoth]

First of all, it's less than a year old, and that seems to be the going age of death on this forum. Second, I usually go by page more than date: This was on the second page, therefore I still consider it valid regardless of the date.

The thread was dead, dont be a turd.

[Dragonheart91]

Alright, sorry. If it is dead, why doesn't someone lock it? Btw, being a threadomancer doesn't sound like such a bad thing. I cast RAISE THREAD! to create an army of THREADOMANTIC MINIONS!!! I'll try not to practice the dark arts anymore...

[Big King Jimmy]

Alright, sorry. If it is dead, why doesn't someone lock it? Btw, being a threadomancer doesn't sound like such a bad thing. I cast RAISE THREAD! to create an army of THREADOMANTIC MINIONS!!! I'll try not to practice the dark arts anymore...

Because our admins have better things to do than go around and lock threads on a board that gets hundreds of posts a day.

Look at it like this: Do you ever have a conversation with someone, and then when that conversation ends you start right up again a year later like no time has transpired? Would your friend think you were crazy?

I would say that if a thread isn't too terribly important, and hasn't been posted in for more than 2 days, let it go... but I check the boards more than most.