Suicide Hitters

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Suicide Hitters

Postby Aegis » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:16 pm

what do you do about the kids that dont care if they die, and jump in florentine and swing wildly leaving themselves completely open just so that they can gloat that they got a hit in on a skilled fighter?
they get easily owned doing this, but think its cool to blow a good fighter out by legging or arming them.

usually i hop back and give them as solid a smack as i can to remind them im not pleased with their stupid little games...

what do you do?
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Postby Aonghus » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:37 pm

I have once experienced someone like that... I just whapped him extra hard for the kill...

What bothers me though are backstabbers. I've been on the field going toe to toe with another fighter and about to strike a good blow and someone has run up behind me and just whapped me. :goblin: It made me angrier that this kid a. bragged about it and b. was on my team. :roll:
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Postby Xiloc » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:47 pm

ya god i hate that when people do that but if you want to look in their view point it might be the only way they can do anything but there is no excuse for bragging no matter who you kill
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Postby Aegis » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:01 pm

Aonghus wrote:I have once experienced someone like that... I just whapped him extra hard for the kill...

What bothers me though are backstabbers. I've been on the field going toe to toe with another fighter and about to strike a good blow and someone has run up behind me and just whapped me. :goblin: It made me angrier that this kid a. bragged about it and b. was on my team. :roll:


ya i hit them for all im worth on the kill... only time i hit to bruise, or following a poorly aimed headshot. backstabbers dont bother me cause thats just my poor battlefield awareness, but smacking me for all your worth on my back does... however same team kills make me wanna fight for real.
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Postby Od1n » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:06 pm

Some people like to have fun in their own way, I don't really get mad. I just use any chance I can get to shield bash them.
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Postby Dr. Kazi » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:39 pm

When the suicide flourentiners come in, throw a weapon block to protect your weak side and keep your shieldwork up. They will hit you a bunch, and once you block four or five shots they will look confused for a second. Hit them in the leg and walk away.
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Postby ICARUS » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:39 pm

I would say just chill out even if your limbed it can be a good learning experience on your side. That way when your at a national event even if you get limbed you can still kill people. Just cause they're screwin around doesn't mean you got to get mad at them.
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Postby Dabbanoth » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:51 pm

If possible, line your sheild edge up so it goes from face to groin on them when they make contact with it.
It will block your sheild side, so just weapon block the other till they hit the ground
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Postby shiv » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:48 pm

Suicide florentiners are both annoying and funny at the same time. I think most of them grow out of it. Or maybe I just hope they do.

Backstabbing, especially in a large group setting takes considerably more skill and study of psychology than you would think. (And a kill is a kill. )

You should try it sometime. :)
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Postby RedBeard » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:18 pm

Battle tactics.

A young Florentine fighter's sacrifice to disable a skilled veteran, may be a worthy bargain for the battle.

Consider a good fighter that usually takes out a good six people. If a young fighter (or old fart), sacrifices themselves to kill that good fighter, the team survives with more numbers and can shift the tide of the battle.

This is an honorable death. It isn't terribly skilled, but it is effective and historically realistic.

I understand the frustration of a good fighter at being stopped from wreaking havoc by a kamikaze Florentiner, but those crazy ones are ones that are often looking for the best strategy to win the war, not just the fight.

To brag (like it took skill), is just foolhearty. To relish in the look of a skilled fighter as you fly through the air with a dagger double greening them in the chest... priceless.

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Postby slavikin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:20 pm

if a dude and jumps with legs open smack in the nads
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Postby Aegis » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:36 pm

ya i understand the tactics, its the haha i hit you that makes me smack the crap outta them.
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Postby Vak » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:55 pm

Yeah I suicide a lot, but only if I lose an arm or something. generally I am always ina position where I know I will die so why not trying and limb or kill as much as i can with reckless regard.

But generally I stay away from the suicide strikes unless Its DIRE need.
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Postby Shratisfaction » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:16 pm

There are many who posted here that have a very limited view on what battle skill is and can be.
Also indicative of an attitude that can limit your ability to learn in general.
You know a lot by broad thinking.
There are two main types of skill involved in the playing of our game.
There are weapon skills which is a seeming main focus but then there are movement skills which cover a lot of topics.
It's worth pondering about.
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Postby Aegis » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:20 pm

movement is such a large part of my fighting capability, if i get legged its as bad for me as when most people lose their sword arm.

#1 rule, if your not there you cant be hit.
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Postby Rune xl » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:53 pm

Pretty much what has been said here, if they come in, block one with the shield, the other, block with the weapon, at the same time, be backing away. Most of the people that do this, come in head first, and once you block those first few shots, they have nothing, because they cant see what is going on with a face funllof shield. It happens, they are part of the game, just another aspect to learn to fight against.

As for people hitting you from behind, thats your own fault. Battlefield awarness is just as important as beinng able to swing the sword. You have to keep the head on a swivel, or you will get hit by more projectiles and flankers than those that do. If im on the field, and i see an opponents back, i will take that shot as fast as i wouild a shot to their arm if they were facing me, a kill is a kill, just use common sense when striking from behind, there is no need for a full blown swing if they are not expecting it. A normal hit will suffice, and safe a kindey, thats all i have,



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Postby Aiden » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:12 am

My only beef with the suicide florentiners is that they generally somewhat put themselves and those around them in danger. For the most part, all suicide fighters (sometimes is newbies using shields) I've ever enountered do the infamous charge-then-slide-on-knees. I hate this move (which I did when I first started using a shield) because it makes me lose my edge and aggression.

Their quick change from a standing charge to kneeling slide easily turns what would be a legal check/bash from my shield to their torso into a somewaht dangerous bash to their head/shoulder region. Same thing applies when I'm trying to swing at them; an intended gut shot meant to kill them quick turns into a face shot cause they drop down. Not to mention how the knee-sliders generally put their swords above their head and wave them about in a half-attack, half-parry thing. Usually these swords end up hitting me in the head, which I don't intensely hate, but certainly don't appreciate.

Knowing what they're likely to do and how their type of "attack" is to injury, I hesitate. Having to hesitate because some kid is forcing me to attack in an unsafe manner OR backpedal or something is not cool to me.

Do I really blame these people? Not really. Do I want to ever fight them? No, in fact if I know there's a newb on the field I'll do my best to try and show them some fighting tips and what-not-to-do, but I'll still generally avoid newb fighters if I can. I never have fun lighting up a newer fighter and I usually don't have fun losing to a newb fighter.

Maybe I just get frustrated at suicide fighters because their doing more damage to me than my ego believes their skill warrants, but it does seem that its unfair that I have to lower my aggression in battle to make sure that something bad doesn't happen.

There, my 2am thoughts.
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Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:44 am

I can't stand any type of 'wild flailing' at all. Wild swinging in generally is pretty unsafe, and is the kind of thing that results in head shots.
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Postby varadin » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:45 am

While i hate the kids out there who just swing wildly and pray for a hit and then think they are somehow good for it. I always remember that.... hopefully they can turn into something decent that i will enjoy fighting. Its a game dont let the idiot young kids get to you because... we are were a noob once and you know how good it felt to kill or even leg that good fighter who you still think is a god.

The kids that * me off the most are the jumpers because, Jump at you full speed while swinging two weapons and praying something hits while you take a step into them with your shield edge and lay them out. Its just stupid and they are bound to get hurt, its more a how can you be that stupid then a christ hes annoying thing.

And backstabbers have no talent, i see its point and at an event ill go for a back shot. But at practice where im trying to get better at fighting to have someone run around and stab you in the back is just stupid and thats why i leg them and teach them at least to fight on the ground.
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Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:20 am

Varadin wrote:And backstabbers have no talent, i see its point and at an event ill go for a back shot. But at practice where im trying to get better at fighting to have someone run around and stab you in the back is just stupid and thats why i leg them and teach them at least to fight on the ground.


Backstabbing has it's own talent. Trust me, I'd rather have backstabbers at my practice. We have a tendency to spar more than anything now, and you lose mad field awareness without them around.

They have they're own set of talent, trying to avoid catching attention. It's just not one you value, not non-existent.
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Postby Aegis » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:52 am

i have to agree with jimmy, backstabbers are great for field awareness and your gonna get flanked at national events. so if you havent been practicing against it, your gonna miss them and get owned from behind and be mad about it.
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Postby To'Gur » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:06 am

Everyone keeps worrying about the safety of the kid that jumps at you while swinging florentine... if they jump into you, lay them out. They wont do it as often. If they get hurt, o well they signed a waiver, and they will get over it. It might just make them think about it the next time.
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Postby Aonghus » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:35 am

Lord Prime wrote:There are many who posted here that have a very limited view on what battle skill is and can be.
Also indicative of an attitude that can limit your ability to learn in general.
You know a lot by broad thinking.
There are two main types of skill involved in the playing of our game.
There are weapon skills which is a seeming main focus but then there are movement skills which cover a lot of topics.
It's worth pondering about.


I understand what you are saying here. I probably should at least try to appreciate that aspect even though it isn't one I value. It just frusturates me sometimes :wizzard:
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Postby Davit » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:41 am

I'm glad to see everyone wanting to get better. However I will have to say that Jimmy and others are correct about backstabbing. As someone who can stand up pretty decently in a line, and can also go and backstab pretty effectively (IMHO) I will say it takes a lot of skill to get behind the lines and come all the way around w/o being noticed. That being said, it is not the kills a backstabber makes that is what makes it useful, it is the chaos that is made due to the backstabber. After all who hasn't turned around, even when they are in a line when they hear, THEY ARE BEHIND YOU, allowing the people in the line to waltz through making a few key kills etc.. In conclusion don't be angry about this sort of thing, just learn, every fighter out there can get better, and everyone can have some good clean fun. I see more people cheat because they are angry so just relax have some fun and enjoy the opportunity these "suicide" fighters, "lame" backstabbers, "cowards" covered head to toe in armor, or just the random person that got a good shot give to you and learn from each fight.
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Postby twilburn » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:56 pm

a fun way to get the people who are sliding with shields is to shield kick. it would stop their charge and put them in a vulnerable position, seeing as they expected to die anyway.
Is there any good way to to the crazy florentine jump against a shield?
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Postby Thorondor » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:52 pm

I love punching a hole in a shield wall by bashing though. I know I'm going to die, but I also know that if I aim for younger fighters it will throw them off their game and many of them can't recover fast enough to allow my team to punch a bigger hole in the wall.

Its fun, who cares if you die once in a while to make the other team fall apart.

Now the people who come though with no armor, no shield, and swinging wildly just need to be shield bashed and laid out so they learn not to do that anymore.

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Postby Aiden » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:52 pm

i have no problem getting killed by backstabbers or tanks or whatever, i just don't want to hurt a suicide slider or lose to them because I'm more concerned about not hurting them than winning.
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Postby RedBeard » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:35 pm

Aiden wrote:... i just don't want to hurt a suicide slider or lose to them because I'm more concerned about not hurting them than winning.


This puts you in the position of needing to avoid them. There are many techniques on force avoidance (and some disciplines dedicated to only that). Maybe you could look for the opportunity to let these suicide raiders have an unexpected swing at air? That would take some wind out of their sales and make them more likely to engage directly.

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Postby Kensman Bam » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:31 am

Leg them, shield bash them to the ground, and dispose of them is what I say.


If done right, they will learn something from it. As the more experienced fighter, I say it is incumbent upon you to take new or suicidal guy off to the side and teach them a better technique.
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Postby Kharn » Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:01 am

I find the easiest way deal with an unsafe newbie is to take the option least taken: talk to them about it between rounds. The biggest problem in general with the sport is that people don't communicate when they have a problem, and that seems to be at it's worst concerning newbies.

Obviously, there is a lot of difference between a two-weapon fighter recklessly running in swinging wildly in hopes of getting a hit or two in, and a two-weapon fighter going full offense with reasonably controlled swings, in hopes of getting a hit or two in.

When it comes to wild rushes, jumps, knee slides, every newbie that you talk to about his reckless fighting might be one that sticks around and becomes a veteran fighter in your realm, every newbie that you smash to the ground or nail in the crotch might be one that never comes back.
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Postby Sqeege » Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:32 pm

RedBeard wrote:Battle tactics.

A young Florentine fighter's sacrifice to disable a skilled veteran, may be a worthy bargain for the battle.

Consider a good fighter that usually takes out a good six people. If a young fighter (or old fart), sacrifices themselves to kill that good fighter, the team survives with more numbers and can shift the tide of the battle.

This is an honorable death. It isn't terribly skilled, but it is effective and historically realistic.

I understand the frustration of a good fighter at being stopped from wreaking havoc by a kamikaze Florentiner, but those crazy ones are ones that are often looking for the best strategy to win the war, not just the fight.

To brag (like it took skill), is just foolhearty. To relish in the look of a skilled fighter as you fly through the air with a dagger double greening them in the chest... priceless.

RB


I was going to post this but you beat me to it. I think the people that get all pumped and run into the field screaming and going down after maybe only get one hit in are awesome.
Sometimes you know you're beat and just wanna take as many people out as possible.
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Postby muskrat » Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:27 am

last fight day we had 7 and it was 3 on 4 and my group was not the best fighters and i had thim hold the 2 best fighters off why i leg two fighter and thin i go behind and i call out behind and thin i go for the kill :angel:
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Postby Shyftir » Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:43 am

One of the most creative things I've seen someone do in a battle was a slide move. He literally bowled me over (on purpose) then killed me while I was on the ground. It took skill, it was hardcore. Not everybody that tries something "crazy" is really being crazy.

I have a buddy who fights with a large red mace his tactic in a line battle is to bust in crashing into the line landing a few red hits and totally destroying the consistency of the line, sure he's going suicide but there is a purpose behind it.
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Postby Sothopoly » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:43 am

The best way to deal with the suicide flourintine is to not be there, stay light on your feet and ready to back up at all times, If you have trouble doing that, you need to fight with a red sword. Red fighting will teach you mighty quick how to be ready at all times to back up.
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Postby squirrel » Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:18 pm

I'm not really a good fighter, but in the H.G.O.B. theres a couple of "kamikaze" fighters. If I die, I usually just beat the heck out of them next battle...
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Postby Brom® » Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:12 pm

there was a kid who was like 15 in babylon that did that all the time and he would allways swing wayy to hard and usually hit people in the face...but it was funny when experinced fighters hit him like 8 times then asked if he was dead.
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Postby Soong » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:50 pm

I'm not saying this to start a flame war, but I think if this kind of thing bothers you alot, you might have your foam fighting priorities mixed up.
I love wild fighters who go all out like that. I consider it a different kind of challenge. Just as much a challenge as a "good" fighter can be.
It makes me think outside of the box and apply those "no-mind" set of skills that is required for such combat.
If I die to a kamkazie fighters attack, then that's one more lesson for me to learn and one more skill set I get to reflect on.
Oh, and as far as hitting someone "extra hard" as a "lesson", do you really consider that good sportsmanship?
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Postby Soo Ma Tai » Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:51 pm

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Postby Djinn aka D » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:52 pm

Ok, heres my 2 cents on this:

I don't mind suicide florentiners, its their style, i'm not gonna judge them on it.

What i don't like is when they think they're hot **** for it. If they made it a valid fighting style with some skill in it, then they could. But to jump into a line swinging, thats just plain cheap.

Oh, and hitting them harder as a punishment isn't bad sportsmanship, is a very valuable and valid teaching method.
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Postby Kharn » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:58 pm

Djinn wrote:Oh, and hitting them harder as a punishment isn't bad sportsmanship, is a very valuable and valid teaching method.


No, it's bad sportsmanship.

Like I said earlier, every person you drive away from the sport by being a jackass to instead of talking with to help improve is someone who could have been an excellent asset to your realm.
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Postby Djinn aka D » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:19 pm

Djinn wrote:
Oh, and hitting them harder as a punishment isn't bad sportsmanship, is a very valuable and valid teaching method.


No, it's bad sportsmanship.

Like I said earlier, every person you drive away from the sport by being a jackass to instead of talking with to help improve is someone who could have been an excellent asset to your realm.


i understand your argument, but i stated that this is my opinion. I find that trying to force your ideas on others is an even faster way to push people from this sport.
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Postby Kharn » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:00 pm

The difference is, I don't want to drive away newer fighters whose only real problem is ignorance.

I have no objection driving away people who think that hitting harder/being more violent is a good way to teach newbies.
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Postby Dacian » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:31 am

I have a fighter, ("DW") in my group that is just wicked fast flourentine. One of the only flourentiners I thoroughly enjoy watching. If the stated instance ever happens, I just send DW after the guy.

Usually try a wolf-based movement tactic, or otherwise stated, use one fighter to corral the turd into other fighters that will clean him up.

Overall, though, I find nothing "wrong" with it (other than the, "haha! i killed you!")and I encourage it even against me. The only way to learn to defeat something is to fight it.
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Postby Bhakdar » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:23 am

Fighting against flail-a-slop is a challenge but typically is often accompanied by poor footwork. As in, they charge straight towards you. Aim to sidestep and throw shots that uppercut under their guard and sweep up to rib/gut level. If they're trying to flurry high and fast, this will usually be open.

The problem you mentioned has an inherent difference in fighting attitude to it, also-- which is another matter. Attempting to solve the arrogance of suicide for anti-vet pride may involve taking the fighter aside at a time when you're both level headed and chill, and say:

"Hey, I've noticed that you focus on fast flurry attacks to make strikes on veterans. In the short term this may land you a hit, but I can help you keep better stance and guard composure which will make your fighting more consistent."

Then start teaching them about keeping their back straight, keeping their head from ducking into shots, and paying attention to where they place a swing before they swing there. Perhaps try to get them excited about using quick fakes instead of full flurries, which are a generally optimal florentine tactic anyway.

Aim to convince the fighter that faking (by throwing a short jab but not extending or snapping their elbow or wrist to swing) to a target location on an enemy can throw the enemy's guard off without having to swing all over the place and leave themselves open. Furthermore, fakes keep your guard close to your body and allow you more availability to swing once openings come. If you can show them that its a wiser tactic to feint instead of flurry and they can be faster, more effective, and more guarded by altering this habit, they'll probably catch on and use it in the long run.

You also don't have to feel so bad about getting hit by a newb. If you get sold on a good fake and whopped... well, you got sold on a good fake and were * for it. They've improved their offense and you have to work on keeping a stable guard that doesn't move for fakes.

Galin and I have discussed the dynamics of this. There's no more dangerous enemy than a newbie florentiner. You have no idea what they're going to do. They are far more scary than other top tier fighters that you've trained with and sparred against-- you have a feel for their rhythm and can beat them if you're on top of your game. Newbie florentiners will own you from your hips to your head.
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Postby Bhakdar » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:23 am

(edit)

Sorry for the double post-- my bad.
Last edited by Bhakdar on Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Aegis » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:44 pm

nice post bhakdar, ya its the leg scissors that usually get me, i can dodge back but a jumping hug while i pop them in the back on the way in, i feel cheesy if i blow off their shot even tho its after they are dead... not really much to do, maybe i can work a sidehop backpop out for the leg scissor hug... lol.
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Postby Bhakdar » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:08 pm

If they're trying to scissor you, here's a few more notions:

1) Soth's suggestion of backing up is key. If they're on the charge, jump, or dead-leg-lunge, you can practice your timing of backup so they lunge to scissor and clap air. You then whop them high as they've overexerted forward.

2) For low claps, hop both feet back and punch your shield low for a second (you're using a punch, ya?) They'll strike both shield edges and you hop right back into place whopping them. You're moving your body further behind your shield more than blocking, and it's a timing practice for your footwork. (You can watch Bran fight with a punch shield to feel out this style more)

3) For high claps, work on an "A Frame" Guard. That is, roll your shield out over your outside ribs/shoulder and pull your weapon guard outwards turning your wrist out. As you turn your wrist out and let your weapon tip angle towards your head, you create a wall parallel to the inside of your body.
Your guard looks like a subtle capital A. You can stand right in front of them, weapon blocking one side and shield blocking outward on the other. Your center is wide open for a short second, but that's OK-- you're stopping the clap (heh heh...). They'll scissor into blocks on both sides, be stunned by their own foolishness, and be wide open. Feel free to punch their weapons with your shield after blocking (to keep them from swinging again) and whop them in the gut or the leg.
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Postby Arrakis » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:51 pm

Or better yet, finish your a-frame block with a nice happy stabbing tip to the chest.

Last practice, I kept stabbing people to death only to have them stop, blink, say, "Is that thing stabbing legal?" and then sit down when told "Yep!" This could in part have been due to the weapon checker's lack of tape for the hilt, but I think is mostly due to people's general consternation when they encounter a stabbing sword. Wonder why that is...?
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Postby Drayden » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:15 pm

Usually when a florentine fighter charges me i give them a nice hard shield bash with my punch shield. I also like ducking beneath my shield and hitting them pretty hard in the back of the leg.
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Postby Gilthanas » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:36 pm

I used to be a suicider during my first two events. My rationale was that if i tried controlled strikes, i would be beaten down, which was what happened. So instead of dying for nothing, i would take a leg or arm or whatever of the enemy and feel good that i hit something. After i got more experience i was able to fend off attackers and get a couple of good strikes before dying.
I say let the noobs feel good about getting a leg and then train them so that they don't have to kamakaze to feel good about themselves.
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