Florentine development

[Xiloc]

hello guys ive noticed a lot of bad rep towards florentiners (doubt i spelled that right) and i was wondering how would one go about training to not be one of those insane suicide hitters but fight with real skill on florentine weapons because personally it my favorite style id like to not be thought of as that kid who ruined the fight for someone. thank you for your time in answering

[Soo Ma Tai]

Some tips to twin weapon fighting.

1. Learn to block and strike at the same time, as one motion, instead of two.
2. Develop attacking patterns that will open up your target, make them move their shield, etc.
3.Speed is your friend, stay light on your feet, and develop your sword speed.
4. Watch what other twin weapon fighters do, find the things you like and mimic them till you can do it.

[Xiloc]

indeed

[RedBeard]

I believe that the reputation is not due to the style, but due to the ease of which someone can grab two weapons (loaners) and just go swinging.

I fight Florentine for the most part and, as Soo Ma Tai said, the affective use relies on timing defensive and offensive strikes. I think as long as you are fighting with your noggin, your skills will develop.

I don't know of anyone who has complained about a newbie fighting Florentine who is actually trying to learn to fight well.

RB

[Big King Jimmy]

I think flourentine is one of the only weapon styles where you can really benefit fighting a pell (practice dummy). You can practice combos and strikes on a pell with other styles, I just don't think you benefit as much as you do flourintine.

[Dragonheart91]

I would like some advice for fighting florentine against a red fighter. My primary sparring partner simply swings so hard that I cannot block. Being unable to block his hits seriously limits my options, and I usually have to run until he over commits, then run in fast. Are there any good strategies against baseball red style other than simply back peddling a lot? I also would like some strategies against his defensive style, in a 1v1 spar, he will literally not move. He stands in one spot until I come to him, and defends until I'm open. I like attacking, but I would enjoy a chance to defend sometimes too, any suggestions to get him to attack instead of just wait for me and/or back peddle constantly? (I also find it hilarious that the red user is too intimidated to attack...) So, how do I defeat someone who stands in one spot, then swings overly hard as soon as your within range, when I use florentine, and they use red.

[Olos]

If he's trying to defend/counterattack with a red without moving, he should be a fairly easy target as a flourentiner. If you block the shot at an earlier point in the swing, it'll be a lot easier to block, or at least deflect, and then kill him. If you are able to get him to extend his range a bit, and he is still baseball swinging, dodge the shot, and then move in for the kill. "Best block = no be there"

Also, if he is primarily defending with the red sword, you should have a great advantage with flourentine. Attack rapidly to different quarters (left high, right low etc.), and unless he is able to counterattack before you kill him, you will probably get past his less than ideal defense rather quickly.

Also, if you are worried about not being able to block well, trying blocking nearer to your hand. It might hurt a bit, and you might want to get some gloves with a little padding, but the closer to your hand that you can block, the easier the shot is to block, because you have more control there. Be cautious with this though, because if he is really swinging baseball style (which should be unnecessary anyway as a red user against a flourentiner), it's going to majorly hurt his wrists.


Or, just pick up a shield. Rush him, let him get the one hit off on your shield, get inside his range, and don't stop swinging till he yells "DEAD!"

[Thomas MacFinn]

In addition to evenrything Olos said, deflect instead of block. When you do this, the distance between the contact and your hands matters. If he is swinging a red sword, you simply cannot block it with the tip of your sword but can block closer to the crossguard (or even punch it) easily.

For a newbie redsword fighter, blocking two swords with just one weapon can be a hard skill to learn. When I was an SCA newbie, I occasionally swung my two-handed swords harder than I had to in order to force the other guy to block with both swords. That reduced when I met flourentine fighters able to deflect me and kill me easily.

[Arrakis]

I'd say, especially in a one-on-one duel, just drop your left hand sword (presuming his first shot is towards your left side, natural for a right-handed opponent) down to block your legs, take the shot on your left forearm and give with it some so it doesn't crush you or hurt, and sling a pair of fast shoulder shots with the right hand blade. End of fight.

In a situation where you don't want to sacrifice an arm for the kill, you're in a bit more of a bind. I've fought the occasional redswordsman that swings unnecessarily hard, especially considering that a Florentine fighter has no shield to break, and I've definitely hurt my wrists ignorantly stop-blocking anyway. The best options in that case are, as usually is the case, the best options all the time, turns out: counterswings. A strike that deflects a strike away from its intended target and also seeks to strike your opponent, usually in the sword arm or chest (historically in the head or hands, as well). Of course, against a cranked red shot, that's no mean feat.

Other options definitely include Olos' suggestion that you try to get deep in his range when he pulls back for a shot and push one of your weapons as far out ahead of you as you can, trying to press his sword back before he can even start his swing, essentially blocking his strike before it has any momentum. It's just a difficult tactic to pull off on the same swordsman more than a few times; they learn quickly to backpedal, but it does still throw them off a bit.

Oh, and another strategy: Throw a full-out, cranked shot of your own, with both swords, straight down at his blade as it comes in. Attack the weapon like you're breaking a shield. This should smash his attack to the ground, stopping it's motion and getting it out of line with your body. Follow this up with a backhand swing with your right hand weapon to his right upper arm or left forearm or chest and go from there.

Good luck!

[Dragonheart91]

Hmm, thank you. All very good advice, and I've tried most of it. I will definitely try to increase my speed to stop his momentum, and the smash his sword thing. I have tried most of the rest, and I just don't like having to suicide any limb to kill him, + he back peddles constantly when I get near him. He stands his ground until I'm in range, then swings and jumps back. He actually misses me sometimes due to jumping back too far. Anyway, great advice that I will definitely put into use come saturday.

[Thomas MacFinn]

Absolute best thing you can do to a red sword fighter is to fake him into swinging at empty air.

It is alot easier to change direction on a red sword after it has run tnto something. If the red sword fighter hits nothing but air, especially if he is swinging hard, all the momentum he has created now becomes his enemy.

Charge, stop and either charge again or lunge after the blade goes by you.

[Big King Jimmy]

Absolute best thing you can do to a red sword fighter is to fake him into swinging at empty air.

It is alot easier to change direction on a red sword after it has run tnto something. If the red sword fighter hits nothing but air, especially if he is swinging hard, all the momentum he has created now becomes his enemy.

Charge, stop and either charge again or lunge after the blade goes by you.

That concept, of a red being easier to bust * with if it connects, is true of just about any weapon.

Remember that at the end of the day what you're swinging is padded with foam, and has the properties that come with that. You can use that "bounce" effect if a variety of ways. With a blue swinging on a shield, you get a "shield bounce" and can use that momentum through your next shot, and if it bounces again.... well you should for sure try to connect, but if all else fails you're building momentum.

[Hatchet]

If the red sword fighter hits nothing but air, especially if he is swinging hard, all the momentum he has created now becomes his enemy.

Depends on how fast the fighter in question is. As a red fighter I would just use the momentum to spin faster and go low. If anything it makes the opponent think twice before stepping in for that shot and at best it hits the guy in the leg.

lunge after the blade goes by you.

DONT DO THIS! Charging after a competent red fighter means your gonna get some shot to your side/leg and if you duck low enough your head.

In my opinion if you are fighting one of the ... how you say baseball player red fighters[ones who just wack away at one spot usually in base ball stance] your best bet is to reverse grip both weapons [sword points down pommel up. looks vaguely like a preying mantis] raise your arms so your weapons run along the side of your arm and run into and block the weapon with both arms [effectively this stops a bunch of momentum and if you haven't fallen on your * requires more energy to reset the weapon] once this is done keep both weapons in contact with the red and effectively "run down" the weapon and strike [while keeping one arm on the weapon] the strikes the difficult part as you gotta switch the grip to effectively get enough force behind the blow.

It looks like some ninja or anime crud but; it's effective against the kind of people that just sit there with a red and use a lumberjack method.

[Mekoot Gorlock]

In my opinion if you are fighting one of the ... how you say baseball player red fighters[ones who just wack away at one spot usually in base ball stance] your best bet is to reverse grip both weapons [sword points down pommel up. looks vaguely like a preying mantis] raise your arms so your weapons run along the side of your arm and run into and block the weapon with both arms [effectively this stops a bunch of momentum and if you haven't fallen on your * requires more energy to reset the weapon] once this is done keep both weapons in contact with the red and effectively "run down" the weapon and strike [while keeping one arm on the weapon] the strikes the difficult part as you gotta switch the grip to effectively get enough force behind the blow.

So your saying cheat. Because laying a weapon against you and letting it take a hit is anviling, and anviling is cheating.

[Arrakis]

Hatchet, do you have any experience fighting Redswordsman with Florentine blueswords? Getting a fighter to open themselves up by overswinging and then capitalizing on said opening by way of a quick advance is a classic technique. It works for lots of people; maybe you just haven't got it down-pat yet.

[Dabbanoth]

As a fighter who uses a redsword alot of the time, i can definately say that it is true, red fighters rely heavily on making some kind of contact, be it blocked or otherwise so that a fresh start can be made and a variety of attacks can be thrown, when a complete miss is made a red fighter really only has two real options:
To be left reeling and try to stop the swing, bring it back to an offensive position, and throw another.
"Pinwheeling" it, letting the momentum follow through to a second swing, usually from the same size as the first.
In either circumstance the red fighter is left with a several second window of being unable to effectively attack or defend.

Remember florentine fighters, the closer to your hand you take the block, the harder it will be for a power-based red fighter (myself) to power through, if you take the block on the handle, preferably above the knuckles, its going to be really tough for even the strongest red fighters to power though that block, its just physics

[Thomas MacFinn]

lunge after the blade goes by you.

DONT DO THIS! Charging after a competent red fighter means your gonna get some shot to your side/leg and if you duck low enough your head.

A lunge is a medium-long step and a thrust followed by either a return out of range or standing there looking cool till you get hit. It should not involve charging or even moving more than a single step. I agree thusting into a sword swing is a bad thing which is why I mentioned the timing that I did.

As backwards as it sounds, due to body mechanics, many blue sword fighters have a lunge equal to a foot longer red sword.

[Hatchet]

So your saying cheat. Because laying a weapon against you and letting it take a hit is anviling, and anviling is cheating.

I am saying that the swords are in your hands facing down so they are parallel to your arms not literally laying on them. I don't think you could safely block a full red shot like that without breaking your wrists or having your swords thrown to the sides.

It's why I said looking like some sorta like a praying mantis. For further reference this is a praying mantis



I don't know the physics behind it but; [for me at least] it's harder to blow through weapons when they are being hit from this angle.


Hatchet, do you have any experience fighting Redswordsman with Florentine blueswords?

No but; I have experience as a Red swordsmen who fights florentiners. The best way to stop a red is to destroy the momentum and run up the blade basically Not all red fighters run up to you and swing left to right madly. I atleast prefer using finesse.

[Thomas MacFinn]

I don't know the physics behind it but; [for me at least] it's harder to blow through weapons when they are being hit from this angle.

I'm not a fan of point-down swords but I could see how a sword held in that manner could deflect a shot away from your body. I know from experience that thumb-up-sword-point-down blocks cannot "stop" an incoming red blow (which again may be a good thing).

I think you may be able to to the same thing using a thumb-down cross body block and still have good options for a counterattack.

[Dragonheart91]

I've actually been practicing all of these things, what I found from the sword-down thumb-up stance is that it seems faster, but alot more limited. Basically you get 1-2 extremely fast swings, but they have low power, and your completely open after that. The most awesome thing I ever did was to have my sword knocked out of my hand by a red baseball swing, then catch it on a bounce upside down. From that point, I used the uber fast first swing to score a body blow before he could strike again. (It was so ninja-like that I wish it was being filmed.) My friend also alternates swings high, low, and aimed at shoulder. Sometimes he can basically fake a blow, then reverse it and come back. In general the most annoying thing is his back-peddling. I can't rush him, because he moves backwards as soon as he swings. Really abuses his range... Basically, I think I suck. Even though I have more experience, everyone I train can defeat me after a few weeks. (Ahh the irony...) I'm also still afraid to hurt people, I do swing hard, but I won't put full force behind an attack. I am going to work on my own "baseball" swings, and get used to injuring my friends for the sake of getting better. (I think they can handle it.)

P.S. I ALWAYS try to punch-block his blows, and it works pretty well. That freaking back-peddling keeps him safe though.

[Arrakis]

A buckler/backshield, jumping/leaping (really), or rushing might help. By rushing, I mean, he backpedals, you run towards him at a full sprint. Chase his * 50' across the field. No skin off your teeth and he's more likely to fall over than you are.

[Sleeper]

Another technique Ive seen and had done to me (I'm a redsword only fighter) which almost always kills me: the flourentiner "pins" the redsword to the ground using his swords after a successful block. No matter how much backpeddaling I do, my sword is effectively neutralized, being unable to block or counterattack. Its hard to explain but its incredibly annoying since it kills me 99% of the time.

[Thomas MacFinn]

I am going to work on my own "baseball" swings, and get used to injuring my friends for the sake of getting better. (I think they can handle it.)

P.S. I ALWAYS try to punch-block his blows, and it works pretty well. That freaking back-peddling keeps him safe though.

I can think of only one reason to swing a sword like a baseball bat: the guy doing it hasn't been taught better.

Have you tried mentally controlling the battle? Here's an example: Walk up to him. When he swings and jumps back, you jump back too. Don't chase him. Do it over and over until the first time he takes a step toward you when he swings. When you see him start to make that step toward you, throw one sword up in the way of where you think that blow is going to land and charge him while swinging the other sword at him. Best cases, 1) he aborts his blow to get out of the way of yours 2) your blow lands before his and you are so close your block connects with his hand 3) double kill 4) he still kills you but spends a lot more time next bout trying to figure out what you are going to do.

[Neko]

I'm a newbie who has taken a liking to florentine but I seem to have issues defending my chest after initiating an attack with my longer 42" blade in my right and 36" blade in my left. Is there any particular strategy I may use to get rid of this weakness?

Thanks.

[Arrakis]

What strike is being used against you to such effect? An outside slash from a right-hander? A stab?

Also, a 42 inch primary blade may be slowing you down; I'm 6'1" and I really like 38s. They give me some reach without slowing me down or preventing full underhand returns (where a longer blade would hit the ground).

[Neko]

It's usually an outside slash from a right-hander rarely an inside slash.

[Arrakis]

My absolute favorite florentine combo is designed to take advantage of peoples' almost insurmountable instinct to throw an outside right slash when they see you start one of your own.

You throw the beginning of a standard right hand slash. This will cause them to start to throw a standard right hand slash. Only your right hand slash was a fake; you, knowing they were going to throw that right hand slash, have swept your left hand sword down through an arc, taking the sword's tip from above your left shoulder to near your right shin/ankle, the apex of the arc pointed towards your opponent's LEFT shoulder, most of the time. This hits their sword as they swing at you and forces it down. Right after (I mean like .05-.1 seconds) your left-hand sword impacts their right-hand sword, your right hand sword should be slashing down at their right arm/shoulder area (a medium-high cross-type shot).

Try to roll your wrist out of the right-hand fake instead of jerking your sword to a stop and reversing direction. You can hurt yourself stop-fighting like that, whereas flow-fighting is much easier on your body.

I know that description may not be clear enough. I may try to take some pics or video sometime.

[p_quick]

*sniff*

[Dane]

Don't you dare weigh-in, pquick. Your florentine is so bad. No one else needs to develop your shoddy technique.

[p_quick]

no doubt right,

[Kirethorn]

I havn't tried this with foam weapons, but backhand slashing with the right and then thrusting with the left when retracting the right works well for me. you keep up a constant rythym while moving forward with the same foot that is striking and they are hard pressed to parry. It can also be adjusted so you can finish with a forehand strike to their left shoulder, thrust to the leg when a person shields against your right, or parry with the retracting blade.

Specifically against twin-handed weapons a strike coming in to your shoulders at a 11-10 0'clock/1-2 o'clock direction can be blocked with both swords then quickly moved upwards while sliding the right blade out for a forehand strike to the left side/shoulder. For horizontal slashes i try to step back and sweep their sword with mine to direct it past you, then thrusting with the free hand once it has moved past. I have also used crouching while deflecting overhead to strike at the legs to good effect. But as I said before, I havn't used any of these with foam weapons so i don't know how good they'll work.

[Dragonheart91]

Wow this thread revived. Since all those months ago, I still haven't made any progress with my realm. I now have garb, but no one else has weapons or garb yet.

As far as the sparring, I win about 40% in Florentine vs Single Red against him. He still swings incredibly hard, but much less baseball-esq. He is quite good now, but I have almost kept pace. When we trade weapons, I win almost all the time against his Florentine. He just doesn't grasp the concept of combos, and almost uses 1 as a shield. We often just spar single blue now, and he wins slightly more of those. (Except when we fight left-handed only, I get most of those wins.)

Anyway, I just wanted to thank everyone here for all their help.

[p_quick]

anyone wanna learn how to be a better florentiner? honestly?

[Big King Jimmy]

No. Please don't teach anyone to fight like you, my gut can't take it.

[Arrakis]

Does a muscle want to learn to be stronger, or an eye to see better?

(Yes.)

[p_quick]

lol jimmy, how is your tum tum doin?

[p_quick]

learn to fight with your off hand and every time you through a cross with your main hand call yourself dead. learn to fight hand for hand your right against their left, your left against their right

[Big King Jimmy]

My tum tum is fine. I'd love to see Pickle's eye though.

[Spyn]

Peter is right to a point as far as metal set ups t fight with two sword.
the main thing most people lack is minor motor skills. you come out to fight once a week and expect your off hand to make magic with its one day of sparring and then right back to being a one handed individual. The first step should always use your off hand for everything. I mean everything. Eat ,drink, write, dribble, beat off...whatever...

Your first obstacle is getting your off hand to reconize minor motor skills that have atrophied from never useing it for anything. after you get minor motor skills developed then practice block strike and learn your 9 shots for each hand. I mean burn them shots into memory by learning where and when they should and should not be thrown by using block strike for reading and striking skills.

All of this should be done which each hand...mostly if not soley single blue practice. For the most part i kill people in the gaps or throw stuff that has predictable returns and set ups.Peter can describe in person what i showed him for the most part. After my year is up in iraq i shall make a few northen Bel events to bring the training drills with me.

My second piece of advce is practice....sparring and doing weird stuff one day a week will not lead to better fighting skills..neither will doing the wrong thing over and over. I suggest training like your trying to get better at something..at least 4 times a week . thats not random sparring...thats a set training routine. I tell people to do rollies..hoppy, block strike, Core training exercises, some people run also. I know this is a huge wall of text but its really a theory /frame of mind not just a i do this and they die kinda thing. I worked with peter alot and he also worked with my squire for tips and idea's

Spyn Thrift N'than

[p_quick]

everyone pay heed to what spyn has writen. He's the master, i'm just his student . read what he said, learn from it, use it, it'll make a big difference.

I'm more then open to talking with anyone in person at events about spyns ideas while he is away, and then he can come explain it in person.

so, any questions?

[Arrakis]

Yes:

What events are you gonna be at in the next year?

[p_quick]

me or spyn?

[Arrakis]

You. Isn't Spyn gonna be out of the country for another little bit?

I plan on trying to be at Beltaine, 'Geddon, and EQ or Oc'Fest at least next year.

[p_quick]

yea he's gunna be gone

but i'll be at geddon and fest for sure but i'm not 100% for beltain Eq