Archery Tips/Training Techinques?

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Archery Tips/Training Techinques?

Postby Malagant » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:40 am

I've been practicing archery for Belegarth for about a month or two now. I'm getting pretty good at loading/firing while running. Does any one have any tip or techniques that work for them when arching?
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Postby Olos » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:45 am

Practice shooting at moving targets, it'll come in handy.

Aim for a smaller object (if you are trying to hit their head, focus on their nose, etc) Your mind concentrates more when you are aiming for somehting smaller.

Carry a backup weapon, and a buckler if possible.

Many flankers only hit you once in the back. If you have armor, wear it. (some do hit twice though, but itll save you once in a while.

Always watch for enemy arrows.

Make sure that you have a quiver that will hold several arrows and stay put while running.

Draw back to a consistent point (index finger in the corner of the mouth works well for me.

Get a nocking point on the bow if possible.

Consistency is the key to accuracy.
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Postby Kyrian » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:29 pm

Shoot. Shoot some more. Just when you thought you've shot enough, keep shooting. I've found that the more shooting that I do, the more consistent I am. When I've had the opportunity to do regular target shooting outside of practices, I've noticed that my accuracy increases significantly.

If you've seen "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson, you'll recognize this quote: "Aim small. Miss small." Just like Olos said.

I'm not fond of shooting people in the head if I don't have to. I feel more comfortable shooting someone in the leg which can be more challenging since it's generally 1/2 the width of a head and is often moving. If you can target and hit a leg consistently, then the head really isn't that hard of a shot.

Get the best equipment you can afford or scrounge, both bow-wise and arrow-wise. A good bow can be expensive but a bow at or close to 35 lbs. will increase your range as an archer. Graphite arrows can be expensive; you can skimp but cheap arrows, from what I've seen, are more prone to breakage.

Build your own arrows and practice with them as much as possible. Learn how your arrows fly. Don't rely on others' arrows all the time. If you pick up an unknown arrow on the field, you're not necessarily going to know its flight capabilities.

Put a nock ring on your string. When properly attached, your arrows will always nock perpendicular to the riser in the same spot increasing your consistency.

Get a volunteer, er, sucker, to be your target. Have the person form a "T", i.e., arms held up parallel to the ground with their back towards you. Have the person specify a certain body part for you to hit. Once you can consistently do that, have the person be more specific, such as "left elbow", "right knee", "left kidney", "center of spine", "right forearm", etc. Have the person pick up the shield and then practice trying to hit any exposed areas. I would recommend having the target wear some type of head protection. Keep an eye out for what's normally exposed such as the sword arm, the leg, the head, etc. Target those areas. Once you're consistently hitting the person, have the target take five more steps and then start the process all over again. Unfortunately, as the range increases, the inconsistencies between the arrows such as the amount of tape glue used, the number of fletchings, etc., really start to have an impact on accuracy.

Have your volunteer start moving. The main directions will either be towards/away from you and moving from left to right and vice versa. Practice applying lead, i.e., shooting where you think your target will be once the arrow and moving target have traveled a particular distance.

When supporting a line, know where the enemy archers are at. Don't always attempt to hit the fighters directly in front of you. They're most likely to see you targeting them and can take appropriate action. Fire on the oblique. There are often more openings and the fighters on the line are less likely to see you since they're often focused on what's in front of them.

Watch for openings created by your fighters, things like spear thrusts that turn shields or attacks that cause the person to shift the shield and create openings.

If you're skirmishing, take responsibility for your own protection. You've got to have your head on a swivel watching for any enemy who are getting too close. Move back a few steps if you need to and get some of your fighters to slow down or stop anybody charging you.

Priority of targets. I tend to look for the things that can cause my side the most harm. Those would be:

a) Enemy leaders
b) Enemy archers
c) Enemy spears and red weapons
d) Power fighters--the ones who can literally turn the tide of battle if given the opportunity.
e) Other targets as they present themselves

If you get a chance, take a gun marksmanship course. I find myself constantly applying the principles I've learned in my BRM (basic rifle marksmanship) course from basic training every time I'm arching.

Use a leather gauntlet or archery-specific glove. This will take a lot of the pressure off your finger joints especially when you're firing a higher-poundage bow.

I carry a shield on my back and a backup short sword on my belt when I'm arching. If you do this instead of using a buckler, practice "turtle style" where you have to spin and block attacks with your shield. You will often not have enough time to get that shield in the proper position on your arm before you get attacked.

Volunteer to be a shooter for arrow testing. This will allow you to warm up and practice your shot placement. When I'm an arrow testing shooter, I will often aim at a different spot on the back with each shot. I may do shoulder blade for a shot, then lung, then spine. This is also good because if you keep hitting the arrow tester in the same spot, after a while every shot is going to feel bad.
Last edited by Kyrian on Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Olos » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:25 pm

Sounds like pretty sound advice.

The only thing I can think of at the moment is that the nock ring (you can probably get one of these for free or very close to it from a local archery shop) should place the back of the arrow only slightly higher than the rest, rather than completely perpendicular. This is due to the way the arrow bends (especially with all the weight we have at the front of them.)

And the head thing was just an example, I actually prefer to shoot at bodies when they are open, as it is a bigger target area, but with the shields people use, heads are often all that is open.
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Postby Kyrian » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Olos wrote:
The only thing I can think of at the moment is that the nock ring (you can probably get one of these for free or very close to it from a local archery shop) should place the back of the arrow only slightly higher than the rest, rather than completely perpendicular. This is due to the way the arrow bends (especially with all the weight we have at the front of them.)



I hadn't thought of that before. No matter how you choose to put one one, I think we both agree that having a nock ring on the string increases your ability to be consistent in your shooting.

I put my nock rings on the strings so that the arrow nock goes below the nock ring. I've found that when I have to move or shift the bow, it keeps the back end of the arrow from sliding up on the string.
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Postby Kyrian » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:25 pm

P.S. If you're going to be attending Armageddon, I'll be teaching a class on archery.

Check this link: http://belegarth.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=23782 for the training outline.
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Postby Olos » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:35 pm

Yeah, definitely make it so that the arrow nock is below the nock ring. That way, in a hurry, you can nock low, and then slide it up along the string, I find it works better than from the top.

And I'd love to be there at Geddon, maybe helping you with the class (I used to work in an archery class, and I've been shooting for 15 years, I've done the training class thing a few times before) and maybe even learn something, but I can't make it this year.

Also, one big thing I just thought of. You have to calm your mind and be confident that you are going to make the shot every time(or not even think about it). I've found that I shoot terribly when I am wondering whether I will miss, and what will happen if I do, but when I just go with instincts, I'm a lot better. Doing a lot of target archery, or other archery off the field allows you to do this, rather than having to think about things like aiming points and such.
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Postby Malagant » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:32 pm

Wow, thanks for the info guys. It sounds like getting a "nock ring" sounds like a good idea. I'll look into that. And as for the archery gauntlet/glove. I have guitar player's finger's (callases as hard as leather :P)

Unfortunately I won't be attending Armageddon due to the location is to far away. But if by some chance your going to be attending Equinox then perhaps you could give a few instructions there as well Kyrian.


Much appreciated guys.
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Postby Black Cat » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:53 am

I'm glad I found this thread. It has answered most of the remaining questions I had about archery as well. Thanks guys (Kyrian and Olos) for posting the very helpful information.

I still have a few things I'd like to ask about though. Is anyone in Belegarth familiar with the use of 'thumb rings' or know anything about Asian style archery? I'm going for more of an Asian style character and am curious about the styles of archery associated with that region.
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Postby Malagant » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:56 am

That's pretty cool Black Cat, becuae I'm going for a mongolian style character myself. I am slighty familiar with asian archery (mongolian recurve and another one i dont remember the name of) and I'm hoping to find one of those bows around. I'll PM you. It's pretty sweet, because the huns' mongolian recurve was more powerful then the english longbow. Also short and compact for horseback :D
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Postby Arrakis » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:42 am

Malagant, Mongolians rock. The only problem Belegarth-wise is the lack of horses and the fact that you have to use a 35# bow instead of a 135# bow!

"Aim for a smaller object (if you are trying to hit their head, focus on their nose, etc) Your mind concentrates more when you are aiming for somehting smaller. "

This is a tricky one. Yes, aim small, miss small. But also, aim CoM on a large unmarked target, and you will find you are surprisingly capable of center hits. I shoot IPSC/USPSA pistol and Three-gun and we use large rectangular cardboard targets with perforations to mark scoring boundaries so the shooter can't see the A zone or anything, he just shoots Center of Mass (CoM). Less useful in Bele archery, on account of shields and such, but still. I would be very interested to find out if aiming small (nose, mouth) or aiming at the center of the head as an object would produce more consistent center hits.

Anyone willing to undertake an experiment? :D

But I definitely agree with the advice Kyrian gave regarding other projectile weapon training. A lot of the same aiming and pointing principles apply across rifle, pistol, shotgun, and bow. Plus, it's hella fun!
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Postby Malagant » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:30 pm

I'd be willing to take on that experiment. I'll pm you you if it turns out interestingly. Yes, I have seen several Mongolian recurves with a 35# draw, (mostly online)unfortunately it's not that easy for a 14 year old to acquire 160 dollars that quickly. (imagine the chaos of horses at belegarth...ftw)
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Postby Kyrian » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:57 pm

Arrakis wrote:This is a tricky one. Yes, aim small, miss small. But also, aim CoM on a large unmarked target, and you will find you are surprisingly capable of center hits. I shoot IPSC/USPSA pistol and Three-gun and we use large rectangular cardboard targets with perforations to mark scoring boundaries so the shooter can't see the A zone or anything, he just shoots Center of Mass (CoM). Less useful in Bele archery, on account of shields and such, but still. I would be very interested to find out if aiming small (nose, mouth) or aiming at the center of the head as an object would produce more consistent center hits.



I've noticed that if I don't aim at a specific target on a person, just use my natural point of aim, I tend to hit them center of mass. I think it's a fallback to Basic when the focus was aiming for center of mass.
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Postby Arrakis » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:04 pm

Horses, ya. I want to play a Bedouin/Persian nomad type, but I really need a big, gleaming Arabian to really make it effective... I could pad him thoroughly, perhaps?

Also, I once read a treatise, and I wish I could find it now, on the Mongolian horseman-archer and his just plain unfair level of effectiveness on the battlefield. The author of the paper compared the range and effectiveness of the extraordinarily heavy bows they used at punching clean through the other guy's armor to just giving one side a bunch of M16s. They do have the same max effective range (300m).
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Postby Arrakis » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:09 pm

Also, Kyrian, yeah, a lot of what the army teaches about firearms, and especially pistolry, was developed from the practical shooting disciplines that sprung up based on the old Army leatherslap competitions. Jeff Cooper and his ilk made a lot of headway in that department.

If you still have any interest in such things, I highly recommend checking out http://www.uspsa.org. Being in Chicago, I'm sure there's a club nearby that shoots regularly. Also, feel free to ask me anything you like about the sport.

Great practice for operating under stress and for aiming fast and shooting on the run!

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Postby Olos » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:02 pm

I view CoM as basically the same thing as picking something specific, you are still aiming for a small point in the center of the target rather than at the entire target. Same mental effect, I would think.

And for the mongolian stuff, check on google or wikipedia, and you'll find some stuff. Personally, I like the english style (1 finger over, 2 below), but it's a little wierd on your wrist( hand is used to being horizantal at that position, rather than vertical).

This is the best video of mongolian style arching I could find on short notice. He shows how they string it, how they nock, draw, and release, and then gives a quick action shot, and then a really quick action shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn9TsKzC ... ed&search=

Here's a video of Japanese style that kind of explains something that is still going today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InKmjTJz ... ed&search=

Looks like the same people did a few other martial arts episodes on escrima and stuff, kinda cool.


Anyway, back on topic a bit.

I don't think there is one "best" way to draw the string, just what you are comfortable with. Most of the asian draws though, seem to go back past your ear, so unless you are short, it won't work for belegarth. I like the style that I used because you are looking along the arrow, from (supposed to be) directly above the arrow, so if you can get it aligned left and right on a stationary target, all you have to worry about is distance, windage, and leading.

And about the different types of bows. I'd love to get a mongolian bow for belegarth eventually, but as they are expensive, I'll wait a while for it. There is a dagorhir unit that has several people with the bows (mongolian steppe unit) called the Kutriguri. Also, there is a Japanese themed unit that has been there at Rag the last 3 years, and one of them had a Yuni-ish bow (proportioned correctly limbs, though I doubt using the traditional materials).

Overall though. the style of bow doesn't really matter too much either. You just want one close to 35# with a smooth draw. A longer bow (limb tip to limb tip) generally gives more forgiveness and strength at the same poundage as a shorter bow, but it comes at the price of decreased maneuverability. The mongolian bows are able to somewhat get around this due to the short brace height(distance from handle to string when bow is at rest), geometry of the limbs, and materials of the limbs. However, I doubt that they were more powerful than the english longbows, I'll have to check up on it.
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Postby Malagant » Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:50 pm

Thanks for the comments olos and kyrian. :)

Yeah, I'm basing my mongolian charachter on a character from "King Arthur". (the one with Kiera Nightley as quenivere) Anybody remember the really cool archery guy named Tristan? I idolize him! (not bad with a chinese broad sword either..)
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