Grazing the head

[Thomas MacFinn]

Today at fighter practice I threw several downward vertical shots with my halberd during the course of the day that one of my opponents didn't take because I touched his head on the way down. Should I stop throwing that shot or does he need talking to?

[Arrakis]

I've heard people say that if it touched their head, they don't need to take it.

If it mostly hit my shoulder below the collarbone, I'm going to take it, personally. I mean, if it hit my head hard enough that I couldn't think to know if I'd been hit anywhere else, well, no, I wouldn't take that. But you see what I'm saying.

However, what bothers me is when people don't take a relatively horizontal shot to the shoulder that BOUNCES into the side of their head.


EDIT: I almost forgot: As a rule, do NOT throw vertical shots with a Red of ANY kind. This is how people get mad concussions. Also, * off at you. Throw at 80 degrees to horizontal, but never 90.

[The Great Gigsby]

Why not just adjust your swing the half inch it'll take to no longer make any head contact? Technically, there's nothing in the BoW stating that a hit to the head negates subsequent shots. I think most people I've fought with would take the death and just leave it with the knowledge that you're being potentially unsafe.

Sidenote: In Amtgard, headshots stop the action which could be where the misconception came from.

Illegal shots stop the shot and pause the action if necessary for your opponent to recover (i.e. if you hit your opponent in the face, stop combat until he indicates he is unhurt).

The BoW makes no such distinction. Anyway, if you want to cause some head trauma, just punch 'em in the dome with your shield instead.

[Cyric]

A hit to the head doesn't mean the following (or same) shots don't count.

If you're hitting people in the head, graze or not, you probably shouldn't be swinging vertically with a red.

[Thomas MacFinn]

I've heard people say that if it touched their head, they don't need to take it.

If it mostly hit my shoulder below the collarbone, I'm going to take it, personally. I mean, if it hit my head hard enough that I couldn't think to know if I'd been hit anywhere else, well, no, I wouldn't take that. But you see what I'm saying.

I knew as soon as I hit "submit" this post was poing to get me in trouble. I'm using a five and a half foot long halberd, and the shot I am talking about is a short chop with the swing starting forward of vertical and hitting the inside half of the deltoid muscle of the opponent's shieldside shoulder. I've got pretty good shot placement and the shot almost always lands where I throw it no matter how they dodge around. When I throw it, the butt end of my halberd crosses my body and passes by my left hip and I tend to try to hold the blade on their shoulder instead of snapping it back up as the halberd is in a good position to both impede a charge and block shots if the opponent calls it an arm instead of a kill. The big problem is that this shot all too often leaves the blade resting against the side of the opponent's face in addition to resting on his shoulder, especially when he was charging forward or threw back his shoulder in an effort to dodge.

However, what bothers me is when people don't take a relatively horizontal shot to the shoulder that BOUNCES into the side of their head.

If were to I throw the shot I am talking about horizontally instead of vertically the added hip rotation would make it bounce off their shoulder, would ring their ear, and would possibly drop them to the floor. I swing too firmly to be throwing horizontal shots anywhere within a foot of the head.

EDIT: I almost forgot: As a rule, do NOT throw vertical shots with a Red of ANY kind. This is how people get mad concussions. Also, * off at you. Throw at 80 degrees to horizontal, but never 90.

The big problem is that I am having is that I am not used to paying close attention to the path of my blade between starting point and target. For example, a couple months ago I threw a crossbody shot at a waist high swordarm that landed exactly on the forearm where I threw it, but stung the lips of my opponent on the way down. My opponent very kindly took me off to the side and helped me retrain that shot from a 45 degree angle slash to a dead vertical chop with the entire weapon off to my side - not as effective a shot from a real combat point of view but much safer.

If I can't figure out a way to throw legal shouder shots, I need to give up red weapons altogether or switch at a point down "spear grip".

[Big King Jimmy]

If it's just the one guy doing it, and he isn't a big name fighter, I'd say you've got one of three things:

A head boxer
A cheater
A moron.

[Cyric]

If it's just the one guy doing it, and he isn't a big name fighter, I'd say you've got one of three things:

A head boxer
A cheater
A moron.

So then what if he's a big name fighter? Does that make it ok?

[Freyson]

"Should I stop throwing that shot or does he need talking to?"

Both. First of all you should stop throwing shots which hit your opponent in the head since it is illegal. Go right ahead and get as close as you want to the head to hit that shoulder, but the moment your weapon makes contact with the head you are in the wrong. It is your responsibility not to do something illegal, even while your opponent may be trying to get you to do that very thing. Though head blocking (what Big Jimmy calls head boxing) is cheesy, it is still your wrong. But it is not your guilt if someone is purposely head blocking and gets injured, it's their stupidity for doing it. The line in the sand is head contact, and the closer you come to that line the closer you come to giving the opponent the ability to push you over (think of the basketball player standing there waiting for the charge). Adjust your shot throwing so you do not give your opponent that ability.

Secondly, a marshal/herald should talk to the target fighter and determine if the purposeful head blocking is happening. There is no problem with these head boxers in the long term since they will eventually not be able to form consonants or walk in a straight line. The marshal/herald should explain this to them in short, monosyllabic words while they still have enough undamaged brain cells to understand that they are going to be permanently injured if they keep it up. Just make sure they have a waiver on file before letting them back on the field.

As for the not taking the shoulder hit, treat it like any other sport. Anyone who has even been even tangentially involved with any sport knows that anything done illegally is penalized. In most cases the entire team is penalized for a minor infraction of one member. These penalties range from mild to severe, but in all cases any points scored are not counted. In sports like football and basketball, the points scored are not counted when a member of the scoring team does something illegal even if it had no bearing on the scoring whatsoever. In sports closer to this, such as boxing and wrestling, not only are the points not counted on an illegal action but points are even taken away. In all cases, points scored as the result of an illegal actions don't count. In this sport this applies only to points (hits) scored as a direct result of the illegal action (head shot). Points scored 1-2 seconds after the illegality or scored in such a way that the illegality had no impact on them (unseen back attack etc.) are still counted.

The shot which slides up the shoulder and then into the head should be taken. The head shot is still illegal, but it happened after the point score. The herald/marshal is justified in placing any normal penalty against the head hitter, but the shoulder hit which happened prior is still a point scored.

[Freyson]

* double post, sorry

[Thomas MacFinn]

Big Jimmy, if he was a big name fighter, he would block it instead of letting me hit his shoulder four times in exactly the same way in one practice.

Freyson, I love the sports analogies. It adresses the issue without placing blame. I got royally clocked just last practice and the guy who threw the shot was more horrified than I was.

[Nakamoto Amuro]

I got royally clocked just last practice and the guy who threw the shot was more horrified than I was.

Hell, I was horrified when someone came out to the parking lot shouting "Thomas just got his jaw broken!". I saw the incident you were talking about earlier, sure he was hit in the head, but that didnt mean he had the go-ahead to ignore all the other shots before and after it. But do watch the vert-strikes.

[Big King Jimmy]

If it's just the one guy doing it, and he isn't a big name fighter, I'd say you've got one of three things:

A head boxer
A cheater
A moron.

So then what if he's a big name fighter? Does that make it ok?

If he's a big name fighter, I'd assume that he's not head boxing or lieing, just that Tom underestimates how much head contact he's getting.

I dnn't scoff at every level of head contact. If I get hit in the shoulder, and then it bounces into my head, I don't sweat it. If on the way down he skims my hair (is my hair my head?) or skimy my ear, but lands on my shoulder, I don't think that's a big deal. I think fighters in my area have grown more accepting of head shots, because we don't have a lot of newer fighters throwing them like it's going out of style. They happen occasionally, we don't even stop, just call head and keep moving.

Now, if his overhead downward swing clearly marks the line of symetry on my face, now we have a problem.

If you're gonna call a graze to your head a head shot, then is a graze to your body a body shot?

[Magpie Saegar]

If you're gonna call a graze to your head a head shot, then is a graze to your body a body shot?

So yes. A graze to the head is an illegal head shot, and a graze to the body is a non-valid (but legal) body shot.

Are you suggesting that because the head is an illegal target, light body shots shouldn't exist? ... I don't quite understand what you're saying, Jimmy...

[Sir_Mel]

No, Jimmy's saying that if you call something that barely touched your head a head shot, by the same logic if something barely touches your body, you should take it as a body shot.

[Big King Jimmy]

No, Jimmy's saying that if you call something that barely touched your head a head shot, by the same logic if something barely touches your body, you should take it as a body shot.

or, if something that barely touches your body isn't a body shot, then something that barely touches your head isn't a head shot.

[Kenneth]

I believe the distinction Magpie has drawn is correct. You are equating an invalid but legal shot(graze to the body) with an illegal and invalid shot (graze to the head).

Further, you are forgetting rule 3.2.1.
3.2.1. Weapons which strike with sufficient force can score a hit and/or Injury to the Target Area.

There is a sufficient force requirement for legitimate moves. In my view, "Sufficient Force" is quite discouraged when it comes to illegal targets for rather obvious reasons.

I suspect the technical reading of the rule says you must take the hit, and subsequent hits even if it touches your head. I believe custom has changed it into if it touches your head at all, that hit, and sometimes immediate subsequent ones, are to be disregarded. The idea is that you shouldn't be able to benefit from blasting the other guy in the face.

I have typically taken ones that graze my head, but land cleanly. I don't expect people to take my shots that touch their head, or any subsequent shots that I throw in rapid succession.

[Shratisfaction]

If I had a big all halberd "grazing" my face Id be a little distracted too.

[Thomas MacFinn]

If were to I throw the shot I am talking about horizontally instead of vertically the added hip rotation would make it bounce off their shoulder, would ring their ear, and would possibly drop them to the floor. I swing too firmly to be throwing horizontal shots anywhere within a foot of the head.

In a bit of cosmic irony, the weekend after I posted this thread, I took a horizontally swung red sword to the jaw that has kept me off the fighting field since.

[slippy]

yeah that sucks dude sorry to hear that. i got hit on the top of my head by a hefty foot ball player swinging at what seemed to be full force.

[Skydd]

I treat it almost like the missle deflection rule. If it brushes my ear and lands a solid shot on my shoulder, I'll take the shoulder, if it is a solid shot to my head, then a solid shot to my shoulder, I'll call head.

[Kyrax]

Some people will take the shoulder shot that causes a light graze to the head or ear on the way down or after impact. But to many fighters, anything that even comes close to touching any part of the head is a headshot and thus can be ignored. I swing a long glaive and just accepted that ages ago. I don't even try for top of the shoulder shots because of that, but it also sounds like my striking surface is much larger than the one you use. Because of the large weapon, I also see a tendency for a good shoulder hit to cause their body to tilt towards my blade so that their head hits the weapon rather than the weapon hitting or grazing their head - and they call it a headshot.

I also want to encourage you to consider the recommendation to angle your shots instead of taking straight downward shots. Even if you target the outer shoulder, a straight downward shot is more likely to hit the head than one that goes at a slight inward angle (80 degrees instead of 90). The target is going to move, and you have to do everything possible to prevent the headshot, since as Freyson reminds headshots are illegal. Not illegal only if you didn't mean to, but illegal, period. Concussions and neck injuries are nothing to be sneezed at.