Poleaxe fighters wanted

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Poleaxe fighters wanted

Postby Thomas MacFinn » Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:17 am

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Postby Syrus » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:44 pm

In Bel, we generally call all polearms we use that have striking surfaces glaives. (Not a rule, it just happened that way.) What details in this polearm are you looking for in this to discuss?
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Postby Pierce » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:21 am

Forkbeard has an awsome long axe, stabby tip and all.
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Postby Shratisfaction » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:59 pm

I used to fight with a small glave thingy. though honestly I mostly use them as spears that are harder to grapple.
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:09 pm

By poleaxe, I mean two-handed red non-swords in the 4-6 ft long range.

I generally reserve the terms glaive and polearm for the poleaxe's longer (7+ ft) brother.
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Postby Mekoot Rowan » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:24 pm

I've done some poleaxe fighting. I was quite fond of my naginata for a while.
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Postby Black Cat » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:55 pm

Thomas MacFinn wrote:By poleaxe, I mean two-handed red non-swords in the 4-6 ft long range.

I generally reserve the terms glaive and polearm for the poleaxe's longer (7+ ft) brother.


I'm going to be building a long-bladed slashing spear on a 5-foot PVC core in the near future and call it a yari.
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Postby Sir_Mel » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:47 pm

Black Cat wrote:
Thomas MacFinn wrote:By poleaxe, I mean two-handed red non-swords in the 4-6 ft long range.

I generally reserve the terms glaive and polearm for the poleaxe's longer (7+ ft) brother.


I'm going to be building a long-bladed slashing spear on a 5-foot PVC core in the near future and call it a yari.


I was pretty sure the yari was a short bladed spear. Not to say your idea wont work, you just wont be building what you think you are.
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Postby Arrakis » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:21 pm

Mel: From the Wiki article on Yari:

Wikipedia wrote:Yari were characterized by a straight blade that could be anywhere from several centimeters long, to 3 feet (0.9 meters) or more.


My concern, BlackCat, was gonna be that most Yari are longer than that, aren't they? But, then, as Wikipedia informs me, there were shorter ones!

Stream-of-consciousness Wikipediaing produced This article on the Nagamaki, a short, long-bladed glaive from the Japanese tradition. Perhaps such a weapon would be of interest to you, BC.
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:32 am

I'm a fan of history. This is not out of any sense of nostalgia, but because historically popular designs were popular because they worked!

A lucern hammer (the variety of poleaxe I have pictured at the beginning of this thread) would be amazingly effective at a hook and stab maneuver but the people who used those things historically weren't really worried about smacking people with the haft.

I recently bought two 11/16 fiberglass cores that are just under six feet long. One was chopped down to become a minimum length red sword. I'm debating what kind of poleaxe to make with the other one.

From what I am reading here, it appears red barrel maces are popular, but I am more likely to make a quarterstaff than a six foot barrel mace if I get the urge to shove people around the field.

I posted this thread here instead of the foamsmith's forum because I am more interested in what is common and effective on the field than in something "experimental".
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Postby Shratisfaction » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:56 am

Hmmm matter of concept bias. but in the end same thing.
Im a small dude so their is no way I really like using a glave more than 6 and half at most.
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Postby okita » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:40 pm

Black Cat's yari's wierd for a battlefield one, but perfectly historical, especially for someone living in a city during peacetime. Imagine trying to use a 13 foot infantryman's warspear in an alley. Or against anyone who doesnt suck, anywhere. The huge spears were mostly just there to give less-skilled footsoldiers a clumsy shot or two at killing whoever was coming at them before they actually had to fight him. A trained warrior was likely (didnt always) have a much smaller spear. An exception would be hozoin ryu. If you look up some of the videos on them, they use primarily the longer ones.
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Postby Arrakis » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:43 pm

Competition videos show a lot of 7-8 foot yari and the way they're used (shaft smacks, using the butt to whoop up on folks, slashes with the tip, stabs, etc.) seem to indicate that they would be quite useful as a weapon of single combat at that length with the historical amount of flex and when used in the historical manner.

In Belegarth, our rules would dictate that you couldn't use a yari in the historical manner unless you built your yari as a quarterstaff and just called it a yari.
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Postby Mekoot Rowan » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:05 pm

Thomas, if what you're looking for is about practical application then I'd say that short reds definately have a strong roll to play. Most are lighter than red swords, easier to repair and block with.

If what you want to do is push, I'd say that a poleaxe is as good as a quarterstaff and better in most cases.

Key skills for the short spear/poleaxe are footwork and blocking with the haft of the weapon. Even though it has a better inside defense, I'd still recommend an easily accessible secondary weapon.
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Postby Arrakis » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:28 pm

Hmmm.....

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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:24 pm

okita wrote:Imagine trying to use a 13 foot infantryman's warspear in an alley...


If I had to pick a place to use a 13 ft spear, I think a narrow alley would be ideal.

okita wrote:Or against anyone who doesnt suck, anywhere. The huge spears were mostly just there to give less-skilled footsoldiers a clumsy shot or two at killing whoever was coming at them before they actually had to fight him.


I don't know if I agree with that statement. Pikes have a long history of effective use over thousands of years in places all over the globe. They are, however, the weapon of choice of the trained heavy infantry unit, not the lone hero. I'm convinced that the only reason you don't see 16 ft pikes in Belegarth or other combat sports is that you can't generate the massive units necessary (3 ranks minimum, 6 ranks ideal) to make them effective.

Needless to say, I consider pikes to be a third category of weapon, different in handling from both a polearm and a poleaxe.

Arrakis wrote:In Belegarth, our rules would dictate that you couldn't use a yari in the historical manner unless you built your yari as a quarterstaff and just called it a yari.


One of the big problems I have with the Belegarth quarterstaff is the minimum striking surface of 18 inches on both ends really limits a fighter's ability to use the full reach of the weapon.

Rowan wrote:Key skills for the short spear/poleaxe are footwork and blocking with the haft of the weapon. Even though it has a better inside defense, I'd still recommend an easily accessible secondary weapon.


When I was in the SCA, mumble years ago, the first weapon I learned after the required sword and shield was the katana. The guy who taught me grabbed his own katana, stepped close enough to touch me with his elbow, and said "Fighting at this range sucks but you are going to find yourself doing it more than you want to. Might as well learn how first."

I've seen other people use secondary weapons very effectively and I've seen an equal number die while trying to draw it too late or too slowly. With my background, I'm afraid I would be one of the dying group if I ever carried one.

Arrakis wrote:Hmmm..... (picture ommited)


Forgive me while I brainstorm out loud.

I like the picture, but one of the things I noted on the real weapon is that the thrusting tip is very short. My current poleaxe has the same leather reinforcement for hooking on the bottom of the blade that you pictured, but I've noticed that I never use it because the blade is 24 inches long. I have seen 2-3 ft long thrusting tips on sixteen foot pikes, but really think the side spikes need to be as far forward as possible to be effective on a poleaxe.

I copied your picture onto my own computer, removed the striking surface above the "spikes", then added striking surface under them. It is kind of hard to see in the top pictures, but the head of the real lucern hammer is held on with two strips of steel that run from the head to right above the guy in the red shirt's upper hand. I can't see gripping the weapon any closer to the head than the guy in the picture is doing, so I was thinking why not make that entire area striking surface?

However, I'm a bit worried about how getting hit with an L shaped striking surface would feel. I just deleted my re-draw.

Then I considered simply rebuilding a slightly longer version of my current poleaxe (pictured below for the one guy on the board who hasn't already seen it) with a single spike added to the non-striking side. This way, I could use the spike on shields and weapons and hit people with the other side. Only problem with that would be the first guy other than me to pick it up and try to use the backspike on somebody and haft them instead.

Image

Finally, I considered that I may be overthinking things and should just consider following Juicer's advice from a similar thread:

Juicer wrote:
Thomas MacFinn wrote:
Juicer wrote:Just take the heavy stick and hit the squishy thing. Wash, rinse, repeat.


... if the squishy things let you. ;)


Let me? Why I ask for permission to squish? I just squish. Or smash. Or maybe crush.
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Postby Arrakis » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:57 pm

Yeah, I looked at the pics you posted again after I uploaded that initial diagram and realized what I'd done. I was basing my design more on this hammer:

http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/pole_hammer.htm

which has a bit more haft above the head than the one you posted.


Also, I find that if you make your quarterstaff out of a relatively thin core for the length (bandshoppe ideal, fiberglass otherwise) and limit your striking surfaces to 3 layers blue, you can grab your bottom striking surface with a fair degree of control.


Here's a modified version of the last design I showed:

Image

More to your liking?
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:15 pm

I think with a poleaxe, you would be much more likely to get hit here

Image

than with a blue-length axe or mace. Do you think this could be a problem force-wise?
Last edited by Thomas MacFinn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Arrakis » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:19 pm

I don't really think so. But then, I don't know if the leather would be necessary. It hasn't proven so on 34" hammers with longer (axially bigger) heads. If it was necessary and striking force at that point became an issue, another layer of blue or some open cell would cure the problem, no doubt.

This thing would be a total * to cover, though.
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Postby Arrakis » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:12 am

For your amusement and instruction, ye poleaxers:

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/NotesL ... AHACHE.htm

The full English text with pictures of Le Jeu De La Hache! Courtesy of theARMA.org.
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Postby okita » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:46 am

If I had to pick a place to use a 13 ft spear, I think a narrow alley would be ideal.


Okay, don't take this the wrong way, but what would ever make you think that?
If they close past the tip there is no recovery in an alley. It will be pinned against a wall and you will be killed. I don't know how many thinking creatures you fight with a polearm, but closing past the tip is a basic, basic skill. After a day of practice someone should be able to do it to an experienced poleman consistently without trouble. The mark of a good poleman is the ability to maintain control of the fight and kill at that range and closer.
What if someone enters the other side of the alley? Sure, you could arc it over yourself to bring it against him, assuming it's not already pinned, but could you do that in time to take care of both sides? I could see it with a shortspear, but not with a 10+footer.

I don't know if I agree with that statement. Pikes have a long history of effective use over thousands of years in places all over the globe. They are, however, the weapon of choice of the trained heavy infantry unit, not the lone hero. I'm convinced that the only reason you don't see 16 ft pikes in Belegarth or other combat sports is that you can't generate the massive units necessary (3 ranks minimum, 6 ranks ideal) to make them effective.

My post was on the historical use of the japanese spear. Well trained fighters were generally not the ones in the large units bristling with huge spears, in that context. In fact, those large units didn't become common until later on in the warring states period anyway.
In my opinion, as well as quite a few top-tier fighters from other games, if you can't stand the pole up and reach the tip without stretching, it's longer than ideal for personal use. In a larger unit, the warpoles have their place, but running and killing a lone poleman with a pole much longer than that is very rarely a challenge, even alone. Being able to smoothly attack both sides of an opponent at arm's length or closer is vital, especially against shieldmen, and a pole longer than the previously mentioned standard cannot do that.
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:48 am

okita wrote:
If I had to pick a place to use a 13 ft spear, I think a narrow alley would be ideal.

Okay, don't take this the wrong way, but what would ever make you think that?


I agree a pike or longspear is a terrible dueling weapon, but if I had no choice of which weapon to use and was stuck with a 13 ft spear, I would want a setting where my opponents could only attack me from a single direction. If they were forced to fight me single file, even better. If they were forced to also stand sideways (the space was less than shoulder-wide) better yet.
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Postby okita » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:14 pm

I can see what you mean but disagree. I'd want the most room to move I can get if it's a pole of any sort, more so for bigger ones. Footwork and angling's just so vital to using a pole properly that a narrow alley would restrict the poleman more than someone using something else.
Now if I was at the mouth of the alley then that's different. I can move and recover if they close past the tip, but they can't move laterally. 'Course I always try to assume I'll be in the bad position so I'm pleasantly surprised more often than caught unprepared.

There are ways to make it an advantage for sure, but if you for some reason have to remain in the alley, (maybe blocked in, or people entering on the other side, or no time) a weapon longer than the alley is wide is going to be a disadvantage every time in game context. Using it to bait someone to enter into grappling range is definitely a possibility though.
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Postby savetuba » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:59 pm

2, 13 foot spears could hold a narrow ally far better than against 1 shield man on an open field. With a longer pole you can use trigonometry to fight your opponent back. The current mode of thought is rush past the tip when it is pointed at you, but as a spears man you need to keep the tip moving from adjacent to hypotenuse. As the shield man rushes it will take less time to pass the tip on the adjacent. As a spear man the tactic is to drop the tip at least 45 degrees to the hypotenuse, under the item that is pushing the tip away, then retreat back enough steps to where the hypotenuse will equal a hit to the rusher's leg (I aim for the knee cause people feel that shot better)
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:16 am

Hopping off the topic of pikes back onto poleaxes, I found this quote:

"A poll axe is very necessary for a trooper, for if you should encounter a troop of Cuirassers where your sword can do no good but little execution, your poll axe may be an advantage unto you to offend your enemie."
John Vernon, in his book The Young Horseman, 1644.

For those who don't know, a Cuirasser was a horsemen dressed in 'bullet-proof' full plate armor and commonly armed with a carbine (or a pair of pistols) and a sword. Jon Vernon's book was written for the much more lightly armored Harquebus, who often wore just a helmet and breastplate if armored at all.
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Postby Mekoot Rowan » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:48 am

Ok, so if we're ever going up against a fully armored and mounted unit who has foam launching pistols we should use poleaxes.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind.
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:28 pm

Rowan wrote:Ok, so if we're ever going up against a fully armored and mounted unit who has foam launching pistols we should use poleaxes.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind.


My take on it is, if you are highly mobile but facing an equally mobile opponent that is also fully armored (as so often happens in Belegarth), the poleaxe is an ideal weapon, even if the armored guy has javelins.

... but I'm considering making a Belegarth legal muzzel loader. :)
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Postby deflagratio » Mon May 12, 2008 9:12 am

Have you thought about making the back 18 in a striking area so you can bring the butt into play?
I recommend I33 and Lichtenaur
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Tue May 13, 2008 3:20 pm

deflagratio wrote:Have you thought about making the back 18 in a striking area so you can bring the butt into play?


Yes.

Here is a thread that discussed that very idea.
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Postby deflagratio » Tue May 13, 2008 7:26 pm

Thanks that was very interesting read thanks.
I recommend I33 and Lichtenaur
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