"Punk/* Moves" (and how to aviod doing such)

[Arrakis]

Big Jimmy, speaking only for myself, now, I don't think anything that's likely to increase my chances of getting a concussion while playing Belegarth is "smart". Headboxing does that.

[debuenzo]

Agreed. It's a loophole to gain advantage...and not smart as far as potential health risks are concerned

[Poo]

fair enough

[Sir_Mel]

Big Jimmy, speaking only for myself, now, I don't think anything that's likely to increase my chances of getting a concussion while playing Belegarth is "smart". Headboxing does that.

Since he doesn't have a computer at the moment, I'm going to point out that I'm pretty sure Jimmy was referring to stepping on glaives, not head boxing.

[Arrakis]

Oooooohhhhh.

See, I didn't notice the second page, there.

My bad. Yeah, stepping on glaives RULES!

Erhm.

[eeach]

Ok, so I spent some time off from the sport... and when I came back all of a sudden it is somehow rude to shield punch to the face. I started playing in the mid-90s and was taught how to shield fight specifically with tactics like edging and punching to the face to either block an opponent's field of view, or to disorient them.

Now, I'm not saying that it is a nice thing to do. But this is a rough-and-tumble *full-contact* sport. When I started I remember being told something like "If you are tender or bruise easily, you shouldn't play this game".

When exactly did shield punches go from being good tactics to being a punk move?

[Poo]

Probably when bloody noses and cracked teeth became not fun.

[Dane]

3.5.4.5. Shield contact to the Head or Neck is discouraged.

It's generally bad form to take any object and punch it into someone's head. You could seriously mess someone up by edging him or her in the head or neck with a cored shield. It's not an issue of "tenderness," just safety.

[eeach]

[rant]I've never seen anyone hurt by a shield. But then people have talked about broken noses in this thread and I think it is either complete BS or that people aren't checking weapons properly.

I come from a realm where Shadow invented the boogie board surf bash, and where Vokor put Kool Cat on his *. I've put in between 8 and 10 active fighting years. I've never seen someone's nose broken.

Seriously, if people are really getting serious injuries in your realm from weapons/shields then your Marshals aren't doing their job. Period. They either need to police the field more, or check weapons better, or both.[/rant]

:sigh:

[Arrakis]

Eeach, you and I both know how hard we can shield edge a guy in the face without injuring him. A lot of people, however, don't.

But hey, it's definitely not disallowed, just discouraged.

[Roland Demox]

Probably when bloody noses and cracked teeth became not fun.

Suck it up Sally. you'll live. Does it suck to get edged/punched in the face yes. should you * about it no. This is not a * sport, we all swing hard, we all swing with aggression. Dont walk on the field expecting not to get knocked around.

I agree with eeach on this, not gonna lie

[Poo]

Probably when bloody noses and cracked teeth became not fun.

Suck it up Sally. you'll live. Does it suck to get edged/punched in the face yes. should you * about it no. This is not a * sport, we all swing hard, we all swing with aggression. Dont walk on the field expecting not to get knocked around.

I agree with eeach on this, not gonna lie

Well **** you too... Its discouraged in the rules, so i'm gonna get * if someone does it and hurts me or someone i know. If someone checks me in the face on accident, sure i'm not gonna take offense, headshots happen. But if someone edges me in the nose, i'm not taking **** after it. You can certainly swing with aggression without being an *. Its a game, and we're all friends. If you have to hurt your opponent to kill them, you either should learn how to play, or stop.

[Slagar]

I'm gonna have to side with Poo on this one. I've done a lot of different, rather heavy-hitting ****, and I'd still be * if someone blatantly shield-punched me in the face. It's not that I can't handle getting knocked around, it's just that it's a * move. It doesn't do anything except hurt people, and that's not the point of this game. I can one-shot people just fine without decking them in the jaw first, Demox, and so can you (we've each watched the other do it). It's just bad form. I'm not a wimp, and anyone who knows me can vouch for that. I stll won't shield punch people in the face, and I've no intention of taking it quietly if it happens to me. It's in the rules as "discouraged" and I intend to continue "discouraging" it.

[Roland Demox]

Apologies, you may have misunderstood me. I personally don't shield punch or edge to the face. Thats not for any reason beyond I dont have it in my *, lately I havent been edging or punching in general.

What I meant by that last post is yeah, I just got edged in the face, yeah it sucks, yeah maybe the guy is a *, but its not illegal so quite your *. Thats my personal standpoint on it anyway. Thats in no way meant to call anybody a wimp, I just dont see either of those two moves being out of place in a "full contact" sport

[Poo]

Then why don't we just hit each other in the head with red swords. It is a full contact sport after all.

[Dane]

I've seen concussions from shield pops to the face. Putting closed-cell foam around a piece of wood doesn't eliminate its capacity to knock someone senseless.

Any blow to the head from a heavy, dense object like a cored shield has the potential to injure. Broken noses, broken teeth, and head and neck injuries can occur. In all honesty, I believe there's less potential for head injury from a swung blue than a cored shield punch, and I've seen people get pretty messed up from blues.

"Tenderness" aside, if people can't beat their opponents without braining them first, they should find a new game.

[Roland Demox]

Then why don't we just hit each other in the head with red swords. It is a full contact sport after all.

again, not my point. My point is if it happens once dont *, if it happens more than that from the same person seek a herald.

Kinda like getting your glaive stepped on, dont whine and moan like a * because **** happens. Ultimately its part of the game. Your gonna get your glaive stepped on, your gonna get hit in the head. Dont take the game too seriously, and dont cry to anybody who will listen

[Dabbanoth]

Warning: Lock incoming if Demox and Poo dont stfu.

[Roland Demox]

Warning: Lock incoming if Demox and Poo dont stfu.

point taken....Apologies

[eeach]

0.0

OMG. I totally wasn't trying to troll this thread. I so expected the focus to be on:

Seriously, if people are really getting serious injuries in your realm from weapons/shields then your Marshals aren't doing their job. Period.

and not on calling each other pussies over a preference to not be hit in the face. LOL what kind of masochist likes to be hit in the face? My point is that in 10 years of actively watching and participating in battles I can count the number of serious injuries I’ve seen on one hand (I call ‘serious’ requiring an immediate trip to the hospital).

• I watched a TDK guy fall backwards over a dead participant and try to catch himself while wearing a knee-length full sleeve shirt of chain. He severely broke his wrist.
  
• Some chick with a reputation for popping pills had a heat-stroke / seizure at a battle practice.
  
• Vokor vs. Grimrott, which was Mongolian wrestling not Belegarth.
  
• Eh, um. Eh. That’s it. In 10 years.

I've seen tones of broken knuckles, busted knees, black eyes, and a few bloody noses. But really, anything that would be life altering (broken bones, chipped teeth, etc.) has been few and far between. So if your realm has a high number of serious injuries I really want to know what you are doing differently than everyone else. My knee-jerk reaction is to blame Marshals (or a lack of them), but maybe I’m missing something.

Again, sorry for starting a flame-war about whether or not we should want to get punched in the face. No one does, I know that. I just want to know why everyone else says that they see serious injuries all the time from shield bashing, but I’ve not seen one. Ever. I put this sport on the level of high-school football; minor injuries happen all the time, but serious ones rather infrequently. But it seems that everyone else has had a different experience.

[Poo]

0.0

OMG. I totally wasn't trying to troll this thread. I so expected the focus to be on:

Seriously, if people are really getting serious injuries in your realm from weapons/shields then your Marshals aren't doing their job. Period.

and not on calling each other pussies over a preference to not be hit in the face. LOL what kind of masochist likes to be hit in the face? My point is that in 10 years of actively watching and participating in battles I can count the number of serious injuries I’ve seen on one hand (I call ‘serious’ requiring an immediate trip to the hospital).

• I watched a TDK guy fall backwards over a dead participant and try to catch himself while wearing a knee-length full sleeve shirt of chain. He severely broke his wrist.
  
• Some chick with a reputation for popping pills had a heat-stroke / seizure at a battle practice.
  
• Vokor vs. Grimrott, which was Mongolian wrestling not Belegarth.
  
• Eh, um. Eh. That’s it. In 10 years.

I've seen tones of broken knuckles, busted knees, black eyes, and a few bloody noses. But really, anything that would be life altering (broken bones, chipped teeth, etc.) has been few and far between. So if your realm has a high number of serious injuries I really want to know what you are doing differently than everyone else. My knee-jerk reaction is to blame Marshals (or a lack of them), but maybe I’m missing something.

Again, sorry for starting a flame-war about whether or not we should want to get punched in the face. No one does, I know that. I just want to know why everyone else says that they see serious injuries all the time from shield bashing, but I’ve not seen one. Ever. I put this sport on the level of high-school football; minor injuries happen all the time, but serious ones rather infrequently. But it seems that everyone else has had a different experience.

Don't be sorry, its not your fault I'm over opinionated and usually say whatever's on my mind.

[Roland Demox]

same here, I didnt mean to flame. I was just stating that head contact happens. And we shouldnt be angry about it. Apologies to anybody i * off

[Slagar]

Just to clarify, eeach, I'm all for shield-bashing, and shield contact. When used properly these can make the difference between winning and losing any given one-on-one fight. Shield bashing from behind, and shield contact to the face, are a different matter, and that's what I was disagreeing with. With cored shields, there's just too much mass there, and it's too easy to bust noses, and even jaws.

And to Demox, yeah, accidental head contact happens, and I'm usually pretty good about not * when it does. I was talking about deliberate edging to the face. One of my good friends armed a guy at a mini-event, and then rushed for the kill, knowing that the guy didn't have any weapons, and was pretty much done for. Guy stepped back, and nailed him in the jaw with a left hook from his shield edge, clearly on purpose. That's the sort of thing that I won't stand for. If someone rushes me and the flat of their shield winds up on my nose, that's just part of the game, and good for them for being agressive.

Sorry for contributing to any *. Didn't mean to step on anyone's toes.

[Roland Demox]

Guy stepped back, and nailed him in the jaw with a left hook from his shield edge, clearly on purpose.

See this is where I misunderstood. What you described is a * move. Feel free to call the guy. But if you come in on me and i go for a shield edge. And it catches your jaw. Sorry unintentional, dont *

What I meant was to have stronger skin and before you jump onto the "hes a douchbag" wagon think about the situation. And if you see the same person doing something that can be considered a "* move" then you can go ahead and assume douchebaggery

[Slagar]

What you're describing happens all the time, and isn't a big deal. The key word here is "unintentional". I've seen guys get messed up pretty bad on accident, and that's just part of our game. I'd never * a guy out over a legitimate accident. Intentionally edging someone's face is what I was talking about, and I don't think anyone can convince me that edging a guy in the face on purpose isn't a * move. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[Derian]

I wasn't entirely sure from your wording, but as it stands, an intentional shield edge to the face is most certainly an * move. One probably shouldn't do it if they want to make any friends, but it's not explicitly illegal.

[Slagar]

Yeah, Derian, that's pretty much what I meant. Out of curiousity, do you know why the BoW lists it as "discouraged", but headshotting someone with a sword as "illegal"? Just curious.

[Winfang]

Because if it was illegal then people would * with just about every shield bash or edge because it happens all the time. Discourage is read as "accident happen but don't do it intentionally edge or punch someone in the face".

[Derian]

I can't recall, but Winfang probably has it right.

[Slagar]

Thanks.

[Winfang]

I hope my memory isn't that faulty. I remember discussing the wording of this one at Armageddon 1.

[Poo]

Guy stepped back, and nailed him in the jaw with a left hook from his shield edge, clearly on purpose.

See this is where I misunderstood. What you described is a * move. Feel free to call the guy. But if you come in on me and i go for a shield edge. And it catches your jaw. Sorry unintentional, dont *

That was exactly my point. See, we agree

[Sir_Mel]

Probably when bloody noses and cracked teeth became not fun.

Suck it up Sally. you'll live. Does it suck to get edged/punched in the face yes. should you * about it no. This is not a * sport, we all swing hard, we all swing with aggression. Dont walk on the field expecting not to get knocked around.

I agree with eeach on this, not gonna lie

So remembering this for practice on saturday.

[Roland Demox]

Probably when bloody noses and cracked teeth became not fun.

Suck it up Sally. you'll live. Does it suck to get edged/punched in the face yes. should you * about it no. This is not a * sport, we all swing hard, we all swing with aggression. Dont walk on the field expecting not to get knocked around.

I agree with eeach on this, not gonna lie

So remembering this for practice on saturday.

Why, you've done it before

[MagnusofDregoth]

Someone edge-punched me in the forehead once. I saw stars, I fell over backwards, I couldn't see straight. The guy never hit me with his weapon, but I was not just out of that battle, I couldn't fight for about an hour. If you are trying to hurt your opponent rather than kill him, then you are a.) playing the game wrong, b.) being unsafe and a jerk, and c.) probably not a good fighter. I like to avoid doing things that can cause actual harm to people (I think I'm just a people person) but if you actually want to take advantage of the rules and break someone's nose, give someone a black eye, a bruised trachea, or whatever, then you are not someone I want to see on the battlefield.

In Dagorhir, hitting the head with anything other than an arrow, a javelin, or a rock is not allowed; people who intentionally shield-bash to the face are dismissed. I honestly don't understand why people would think hitting someone hard in the head with an object that is not designed to hit someone safely in the head is not a serious problem.

[Arrakis]

I've never actually done it (intentionally) and I really think I would only consider doing it to someone who was doing things to me that the rules didn't say weren't allowed, also.

Say, the sort of * that hits you with a head shot to disorient you. Him, I'd shield-edge in the face.

[Alunsun]

Hmmm, if you don't like getting shield bashed in the face, don't get shield bashed in the face. It is my philosophy that the more exposure you have to something, the more resistance you build up towards it. As everyone that trains can agree, this translates to foam- fighting. If you train against those kinds of moves, then you will not receive such a hit. Don't complain about a legal move, even if it is discouraged. Learn from it. Even if you don't even like the person, you can still learn from them (ie how to avoid getting in a situation where you will get you nose broken by a shield bash or edge to the grill). In the end, I dig it! Imagine how dumb Mr. Tough Guy is going to feel when he gets killed by a 125 lb teenager because he tried bashing him in the face and got crossed or wrap-shotted like a chump in front of everyone. I say keep it in your *, but don't be that tough guy that can't fight simply because you concentrate on threatening others on the field. Like Demox and Eeach stated, everyone on the field is a tough guy, and they will laugh at you.

[Wisp]

In Dagorhir, hitting the head with anything other than an arrow, a javelin, or a rock is not allowed; people who intentionally shield-bash to the face are dismissed. I honestly don't understand why people would think hitting someone hard in the head with an object that is not designed to hit someone safely in the head is not a serious problem.

On that same note, in Dagorhir, suspicion and paranoia will also get you dismissed. Probably even faster than a shield bash to the face. But thats only online...

Seriously though, in this instance, I think Dag's got it right. Why would ever want the ability to shield bash someone in the face. Making it discouraged instead of "**** happens but against the rules" is complete bull ****. I can't hit you in the head with a boffer sword but I can hit you in the face with my plywood core shield. HUH???? I can't think of any situation where intentionally shield bashing you in the face would be more effective than slapping you in the nose with a sword and then while you blink and shake your head, gut stab you.

Will

[MagnusofDregoth]

Hmmm, if you don't like getting shield bashed in the face, don't get shield bashed in the face. It is my philosophy that the more exposure you have to something, the more resistance you build up towards it. As everyone that trains can agree, this translates to foam- fighting. If you train against those kinds of moves, then you will not receive such a hit. Don't complain about a legal move, even if it is discouraged. Learn from it. Even if you don't even like the person, you can still learn from them (ie how to avoid getting in a situation where you will get you nose broken by a shield bash or edge to the grill). In the end, I dig it! Imagine how dumb Mr. Tough Guy is going to feel when he gets killed by a 125 lb teenager because he tried bashing him in the face and got crossed or wrap-shotted like a chump in front of everyone. I say keep it in your *, but don't be that tough guy that can't fight simply because you concentrate on threatening others on the field. Like Demox and Eeach stated, everyone on the field is a tough guy, and they will laugh at you.

Don't blame the victim, dude. The issue is that there are people who actively seek to (potentially) cause serious injury just because there is a loophole in the rules that suggests shield bashes to the face are legal. The problem isn't that people who get hit in the face are wimps, the problem is that someone actually wants to hurt another person that badly for no reason.

Arrakis makes a good point: the only people who should get hit in the face are the ones who do it first. Then maybe they realize that it doesn't feel good, and that other people might not like it.

Also, Wisp, it is true that you can get banned from the Dag board for BS reasons, but on the field, no one gives a **** about what game you come from. Even Dominus (no kidding, I saw him not give a **** that someone was from another game). But, if anyone intentionally hits someone else in the head while I am heralding, that person is done.

[Wisp]

Magnus, I know it's a different world on the field, I just couldn't resist an opening for the poke. I was just joshing with ya. I figure you guys should have to wear your own reps you earn for yourselves online until your own internal peer pressure brings you guys up and out of the kiddie pool among the cross gaming arenas like this and Esam. You yourself (and a lot of others) are of course class acts and I really dig ya! When the main drum beat on the Dag boards isn't "I'm old and have been playing this game forever, hero worship me", and becomes half way useful towards quality... poke poke poke poke poke poke. I still love ya!

Back on topic... yeah, shield bashing to the face should be illegal OR intentional head shots to distract followed up by a legal kill shot should be legalized!!!!

Will

[Alunsun]

Hmmm, if you don't like getting shield bashed in the face, don't get shield bashed in the face. It is my philosophy that the more exposure you have to something, the more resistance you build up towards it. As everyone that trains can agree, this translates to foam- fighting. If you train against those kinds of moves, then you will not receive such a hit. Don't complain about a legal move, even if it is discouraged. Learn from it. Even if you don't even like the person, you can still learn from them (ie how to avoid getting in a situation where you will get you nose broken by a shield bash or edge to the grill). In the end, I dig it! Imagine how dumb Mr. Tough Guy is going to feel when he gets killed by a 125 lb teenager because he tried bashing him in the face and got crossed or wrap-shotted like a chump in front of everyone. I say keep it in your *, but don't be that tough guy that can't fight simply because you concentrate on threatening others on the field. Like Demox and Eeach stated, everyone on the field is a tough guy, and they will laugh at you.

The issue is that there are people who actively seek to (potentially) cause serious injury just because there is a loophole in the rules that suggests shield bashes to the face are legal. The problem isn't that people who get hit in the face are wimps, the problem is that someone actually wants to hurt another person that badly for no reason.

I agree... did you read my whole post?

[Brooder]

I'm all about hard hitting, but if I'm herding and ever see anyone intentionally shield (with core) edge someone in the face then I would strongly consider ending their day. No one needs to be hurt, even if we don't like them. We can throw punch shields and edge people with straps (trapping their arm for example) fine without f'en them up. So let's do it that way instead.

BTW when I'm talking hurt I don't mean ow hurt I mean seeing stars and injuries hurt.

[Alunsun]

That is Eeach's point! If you are edging someone in he face with the core of your shield, you need to stop and go to home to take a nap. Then when you wake up from said nap, the day will probably be over, so that you have nothing else to do but think about how much you fail and make a safe shield to bring to next practice so that you can continue to edge mofos in the face should you choose to do so. Also, make sure to go to the person who passed your first unsafe shield and punch them in the elbow really hard for making you BPI.

*Edit*

I misunderstood your post. Either way, the above is still pertinent... AND: if you see it and you are herald, by all means do what you will. You are running that field. All I'm saying is that if I get intentionally edged in the face, A) Yes, it's going to bother me, but B) I am not going to show it, rather I am going to take it as a lesson as to how this person fights so I can use it against them. But then again, I'm much too arrogant to take something like that and just leave.

[eeach]

That is Eeach's point! If you are edging someone in he face with [...] your shield [and it seriously injures them], you need to [...] think about how much you fail and make a safe shield to bring to next practice so that you can continue to edge mofos in the face should you choose to do so. Also, make sure to go to the person who passed your first unsafe shield and punch them in the elbow really hard[...]

Yeah, I think that’s about got it. My first punch shield was handed down to me... it had a big nurf football built into the middle of it (a relic either from when shield spikes did something, or from another game. idk which). I was told, "Put the football in their mouth and then hit them." That was my first shield fighting “lesson”. Now, this was a big poofy couch foam shield... that’s just how they were back then. But I have made blue foam shields that were safe to edge and bash with. I'm guessing that it wasn't until around 03-04 (during a 2 year break I took) that the issue of 'safety' came up. And somehow, instead of saying that we needed to check our shields differently it was decided to 'discourage' bashing/edging.

Maybe we need two classifications for shields: safe for bashing and not safe for bashing. It seems that this mindset already exists (cored shields vs. non-cored). But I still hold that cored shields, when made properly, are safe to bash and edge with. Maybe the difference is in the core itself, so coreless and light core shields (I use 1/8th to 1/4 inch ply or 1/2 to 1 inch cardboard for most of my cores) could be classified as 'bashing' and heavier cores for 'non-bashing'. Maybe total weight of the shield has something to do with the relative comfort of the bash (most of my shields are light weight compared to others). I’ve been bashed and edged by most every shield I’ve made and while not on my top 10 list of things to experience, I’ve never lost a tooth, or even blacked an eye from being bashed/edged.

I’m not trying to talk up about myself here, I’m just trying to understand what I’m doing differently as it seems that the majority of people here have witnessed or had bad experiences with shield bashing/edging. Also, I don't want to see our sport become the SCA, where we don't have knees, a back, and cannot use shields as offensive implements.

I'm all about hard hitting, but if I'm herding and ever see anyone intentionally shield (with core) edge someone in the face then I would strongly consider ending their day.

This is my point too, kind of. I'm not about this black and white "if you edge/bash to the face you're off my field" thing. But I am all about kicking people off the field that intentionally try to hurt other players. Just like I can tell if you are swinging a red 'normally' or 'for the fences,' I can tell if you are trying to intentionally hurt someone with a bash/edge or not.