"Punk/* Moves" (and how to aviod doing such)

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"Punk/* Moves" (and how to aviod doing such)

Postby savetuba » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:58 pm

So this is the third time I am taking flak over a punk/* move that I have learned from people who have been fighting longer than I. Most of them have been SCA fighters, some Amtgard fighters, and a few bele/dag fighters.

So I have started wondering;

What would be considered a punk/* move when fighting a person?

I'm looking for subtle things, not like purposely head shotting, but more like;

*Aiming for a person's Kneecap with a spear shot
*Diving under the shield kick and stabbing upwards into the *, groin, and unprotected leg/back of knee. (learned that one from an amtgard guy)
*Aiming for the hand if the person punch blocks.
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Postby Sir Par » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:08 pm

Some other classic * Moves:

Groin Shots with Red Weapons.
Shots to the base of the Neck.
Shield bash/punch to the face.
Extreme kidney shots from behind.
Power shots to the joints.
Killing a guy in front of his girlfriend just to make him look like a douche.
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Postby MagnusofDregoth » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:16 pm

The one-two stunner--hit the guy in the head, and while he's reeling, kill him.

I'd like to think that people aren't doing this on purpose, but, intentional or not, it happens a lot more than you'd think.
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Postby Thorondor » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:36 pm

Par wrote:Killing a guy in front of his girlfriend just to make him look like a douche.

That's exactly right, make him look like an *!

But yea...
Purposeful groin shots
Shield punch, edge, bash to the face
Kicking someone's OWN shield into their face
Full draw at 15' (min distance) into someone's nose.
Full throw w/ a jav into someone's nose.
Hard red shots to smaller joints (knees, elbows, wrists, ankles, etc).
Shield bashing a legged person and landing on them if you're significantly larger (50-100lbs) and staying there.
Dying on someone if you're significantly larger (50-100lbs) and not moving if they can't breathe.

Not a * move, but aiming for people's un-gloved hands instead of aiming for their body can be pushing your luck.

If you notice, a lot of these can be avoided by aiming a few inches or by realizing what you're laying on.

If Big Jimmy squished me, you'd probably be scraping me off the field (165lb difference). BUT, I'd expect him to die on me if he's dead. I would just expect him to not smother me before someone else can kill me...
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Postby Twitch » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:36 pm

using people's known medical problems against them- such as carpel tunnel, an old knee surgery, or where they got hurt last practice and are toughing it out for this one
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Postby Dante the Highwayman » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:53 pm

Wow, Par, that last one is way *!

I've seen the "headshot then kill" move before. But honest people usually call it a re-do.

Ok, how about this: killing someone who is deliberating a shot with another player.

And my personal favorite: Purposefully engaging new players so they back off the edge of the world (sidewalk or whatever) and die. Especially if they weren't aware of that rule. It's a good way to teach them. That's how I found out!

Another one that our Plix learned: slapping a player's hand when he goes to grab your shield and pull it out to create and opening.
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Postby okita » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:59 pm

Upwards shots to the solar plexus and floating ribs,
Baiting someone into rushing and then harpooning him with a body-driven pole-thrust
Bringing a pole from laying across your shoulders or the small of your back, in a wide arc, and then into the opponent with good force
Ramming someone's shield rim into the bottom of his nose
Holding someone down with a knee on his head when grappling
Standing on someone's instep so that he can't back up
Going from full sprint into a diving pole thrust with all your weight at a swordboarder on both knees who is busy fighting someone else. In the *. This one actually ended up with a name after it was used on a less-than-polite guest to our park.
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Postby Dante the Highwayman » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:00 pm

Oh yeah, and like Throndor said, hard nose shots effing hurt! The ones I usually see aren't malicious, but they still put players out for a couple minutes!

But I think Twitch's is the worst so far... if someone does that often enough, I'd say it's grounds for removal from the realm...
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Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:53 pm

I've never, in my entire time fighting, heard of someone deliberatly going for a shot to a spot that's injured on another fighter, as Twitch has suggested. What I HAVE seen far more often, is someone complain because during the course of battle they got hit in a bad knee or something, and then accuse another fighter of going for it. That's some of the biggest bs in the world. If you're on the field, assume anywhere and everwhere is gonna get hit. I'm not gonna pull a knee shot because I remember your bad knee, I've trained myself to throw shots at openings without thinking.

/rant, sorry.

Most of these have already been mentioned, but:

Shield punches to the face, I've done it once, but I knew Kenny was down, and he took it in stride.

Blasting someone harder if they aren't looking.

Manipulating someone elses shield to hit them in the face.

.... I think that's it.

Some that I've seen that are totally fair game in my opinion:

Nut stabs, by a cup, learn to use your shield.
Aiming for hands on people that punch block: Buy a glove or stop punch blocking.

And kinda back and forth on the killing someone whose debating a shot with another player. You know, the guy heres "That was late" after he just killed a guy, and as he looking you smoke him. Even worse is if he's talking to a herald at the time. It sucks, I know... but stay on your game :: shrug ::

Okita, most of your list looks more like either thining out the gene pool (If you can spear a guy in the nuts while he's legged with a shield, be my guest. Won't happen to me, same with the bait and spear stab, what a dumbass) or grounds for removal from the field (knee holding someones head during a grapple, although the guy should tap... hrm..)
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Postby okita » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:52 am

Hey, I didnt say I actually did all of these. XD

But yeah, the knee on head, that was during the first day of the park. The rulebook's a tad more vague than what we're used to, so what was and wasn't kosher as far as grappling goes was still getting smoothed out.
Either way, both of the pole things you mentioned worked out pretty well. The junk-torpedo victim was just so * that I didn't take his headshots that he didn't notice me coming back from his right rear quarter. With his shield in his left hand, fighting someone to his left, I could understand him missing it.
As for the bait and stab, watch just about anyone enter on a pole after blocking a stab. It's frantic. It's spastic. It's the perfect opportunity to harpoon right between the swords. I admit, it takes a little more angling and another feint to do it to decent swordboarders, but I assure you it does work.
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Postby The Great Gigsby » Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:35 am

Swinging a stabbing only weapon usually raises a few eyebrows, but I wouldn't consider it a * move.
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:24 am

Thorondor wrote:Shield bashing a legged person and landing on them if you're significantly larger (50-100lbs) and staying there.


If you get a good run and the target doesn't see him coming, he doesn't have to be larger. My leg was broken that way. I never found out who got me but nobody on the field was significantly heavier that day.
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Postby savetuba » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:03 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:If you're on the field, assume anywhere and everywhere is gonna get hit.


Under that assumption none of the listed moves to a valid target area would be considered a */punk move.
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Postby Thorondor » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:30 pm

savetuba wrote:
Big Jimmy wrote:If you're on the field, assume anywhere and everywhere is gonna get hit.


Under that assumption none of the listed moves to a valid target area would be considered a */punk move.


Urban Dictionary wrote:*Any cowardly action that is intended to adversely affect another.
*An abject act only benefiting oneself
*A decision that can be classified as weak or cowardly.
*when someone does something stupid, annoying, weak, cheap, gay, and/or *
*A move, tactic, or strategy that is used by cowards and punks. A soft move used as a last resort.

The assumption Jimmy made is correct. The assumption you made is incorrect. It can be a valid target area and still be a * move.

Urban Dictionary wrote:Punk: Being your self and not giving a **** what people think about you or say about you.

Now it's a toss up on if some of these should be classified as a * move (weak, stupid, cheap, etc) or punk move (not caring what people think because it's legal enough). They're all punk moves, just figuring out that line that moves it up a category is the deciding factor on which it is.
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:34 pm

Thorondor wrote:Now it's a toss up on if some of these should be classified as a * move (weak, stupid, cheap, etc) or punk move (not caring what people think because it's legal enough). They're all punk moves, just figuring out that line that moves it up a category is the deciding factor on which it is.


How about we just say "both" and move on (sorry, snowed in and grumpy).
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Postby Thorondor » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:59 pm

Thomas MacFinn wrote:How about we just say "both" and move on (sorry, snowed in and grumpy).


Apparently we got flurries last night, but it was 45F by the time I got up at 9...

How about this...I'll move on, you can hobble along with me!!! :D :D :D :frog: :fish: :knight:
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Postby Elwrath » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:49 am

Par wrote:Killing a guy in front of his girlfriend just to make him look like a douche.


classic goodness.
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Re: "Punk/* Moves" (and how to aviod doing suc

Postby Dacian » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:58 am

savetuba wrote:
*Diving under the shield kick and stabbing upwards into the *, groin, and unprotected leg/back of knee. (learned that one from an amtgard guy)

Anyone who will "let" you do this deserves it.

*Aiming for the hand if the person punch blocks.

I've been hit in the hands plenty of times...never been hurt by it, unless it was a flail shaft that wasn't padded enough...

I'm gonna have to go with Jimmy's post.

I'm all for a shield bash while on the ground. UNLESS the person isn't looking. If a dude is legged and fighting 2-3 guys, and I happen to be one of those guys, then, hey, he should have been paying better attention and watch how he's down on a leg. If he's across the field and I full-on sprint bash him...that's a little shady. LEGAL, but shady.

I've been bashed plenty of times (used to have that flanker build to me) and I've gotten up and kept fighting. It may have hurt like hell. I may have sat down for the rest of the practice. But, in my mind, it's part of the game. It happens. Just don't "* out" because of it.
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Postby vek » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:39 pm

Going into a tank tourney and killing a guy with a rock

Going into a tourney with four ultra-light flails

Do these count as */punk moves;yes. Were they done for humorous reasons; yes.

Aw Chaos X

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Postby Spike » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:26 pm

vek wrote:Going into a tank tourney and killing a guy with a rock


If they aren't wearing a helmet, they're a punk * for claiming to be tanked and should be rocked in the face thusly.
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Re: "Punk/* Moves" (and how to aviod doing suc

Postby Dacian » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:39 am

savetuba wrote:*Diving under the shield kick and stabbing upwards into the *, groin, and unprotected leg/back of knee. (learned that one from an amtgard guy)


In addition to my last post, if you or anyone ends up getting kicked in the face while trying to do it, you deserve it. And if you * or cry (not you specifically, but whatever) at all if it happens, you should be banned from the field for being so stupid.

but hey, that's just my opinion. :armor1:
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Postby bo1 » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:38 pm

Not sure if this counts, but

i like to fight in close, i am stronger than my opponent in almost all cases, so it works well. i like to step on their front foot to throw their balance off. then they are much easier to hit, they usually look down to see whats going on.

i dopn't do it often but it is fun when i do.

other than that, the hand checking fighters that throw fast really hard shots at your hand really makes me mad. Falcor wrecked my thumb a week ago and i still cannot move it right. sure i started to hide it behind my shield but not after the damage was done. it'd just think like head shots, only * do it on purpose. love ya falcor. :P
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Postby Jeggrim » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:15 pm

i like to fight in close, i am stronger than my opponent in almost all cases, so it works well. i like to step on their front foot to throw their balance off. then they are much easier to hit, they usually look down to see whats going on.


I fight pretty close too. I'm an average sized guy and this still works pretty well for me. I don't do it often, but when I do, its pretty funny watching the guy try to back pedal away, lose his balance and fall.

I'm still not very good at that, but it seems legit to me.

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Postby Thorondor » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:50 pm

I would advise against stepping on people's toes that you don't know. If they fall back and try to catch themselves with their hands (hands behind them) it could end up badly. Sprained or broken hands/wrists/arms could be a possibly outcome.

Now...if you know the person will fall properly, then go for it, it's a blast.

That goes for anything that could be overly dangerous or pushing the rules of the game. If you know the person and they're down for it, go ahead. If you don't know how the person will react, take it easy the first few times.
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Postby Sir_Mel » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:41 pm

Along those same lines, don't do it in a gym/near a sidewalk.
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Postby Spike » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm

Here's another something I consider a punk * move:

If someone steps out of bounds but are nowhere near being engaged in active combat, and you're standing there screaming "Hey! You stepped off the edge of the world! You're DEAD!"

This one * me off because, yeah, he's technically dead, but that rule is only there to protect spectators from becoming entangled in combat. If no fighting is going on in that area or there are no spectators/equipment nearby and you're using "out of bounds" as an advantage just to not have to fight an extra person, you are not a punk * but in fact a punk * *.
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Postby Nakamoto Amuro » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:23 am

Ducking into shots clearly aimed for the body, then trying to pull the "he keeps head-shotting me" card.

* every time an archer takes you out.

Shouting "****' newbs!" despite being killed by said newb.

Bringing online Bele-board drama onto the field.
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:16 am

Nakamoto Amuro wrote:Bringing online Bele-board drama onto the field.


Heck, bringing any off the field drama onto the field.
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Postby Ignatius » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:55 pm

1.4. Creative interpretation of the rules to gain any advantage is discouraged. These rules are intentionally sparse to allow for ease of use. The Marshal, according to these rules, and medieval foam combat precedent, settles all disputes.

Pretty much any move that tries to get around something that's left vague in the BoW is a punk/* move. Of course some of them might be accidental, but if someone is deliberately attempting to gain an advantage through a loophole well, they're being a punk or a *. (or a rules laywer) :P
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Postby Makieus » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:09 pm

Dunno if this would be considered a punk/* shot, but purposely striking towards to head to force the fighter to flinch, then pulling the shot and hitting torso/limb...
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Postby Thorondor » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:16 pm

Makieus wrote:purposely striking towards to head to force the fighter to flinch, then pulling the shot and hitting torso/limb...


Eh, I don't think you should do it for a few reasons. 1: They might lean into the shot you were planning on pulling. 2: It's not a legal target, so you shouldn't use it as such.
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Postby Makieus » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:25 pm

I have had it done to me several times, fortunately from experienced fighters. Unfortunately for them, I used to fence quite a bit, and the first thing they taught us was to have our mask on, and let a circle of fencers hit you with foil/e pee/saber in the mask so we would learn not to flinch when the blade came towards the mask.

I've used the move once or twice before, but tend to keep away from it for those reasons you listed
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Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:48 pm

Makieus wrote:Dunno if this would be considered a punk/* shot, but purposely striking towards to head to force the fighter to flinch, then pulling the shot and hitting torso/limb...


I don't know about actually putting a shot into motion, but just a slight pump fake to the face for the same effect I'd call bread and butter.
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Postby savetuba » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:29 pm

thrusting your spear into a shield man's shield causing the back of the shield to slap them in the face.
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:28 pm

savetuba wrote:thrusting your spear into a shield man's shield causing the back of the shield to slap them in the face.


While I have never tried to hit anyone in the face, I think moving shields around to aid your allies is one of the primary purposes of any weapon over 8 ft long. I thrust at them, smack them and comment afterward almost every time somebody leans forward to rest his chin on his shield or tries to peek around an edge inches from his nose.
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Postby Arrakis » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:42 pm

Makieus, a circular fake that sweeps past an opponent's face about 10 inches out to get them to blink, followed by a straight shoulder shot (or a leg drop if they pull the shield up) is a highly useful technique recommended at at least one of the SKBCs and can be seen in their video on Feints and Stabs (check YouTube).

SKBC uses it? Not a punk-ass * move.


Don't get me started on punk * stingrays, though...
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Re: "Punk/* Moves" (and how to aviod doing suc

Postby slippy » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:50 am

Squire Dacian wrote:I've been bashed plenty of times (used to have that flanker build to me) and I've gotten up and kept fighting. It may have hurt like hell. I may have sat down for the rest of the practice. But, in my mind, it's part of the game. It happens. Just don't "* out" because of it.



yeah i get bashed all the time. i go flying even but i never find it to be painful enough to get me to stop for a while. during the initiation at thawl i got bashed most the time and even had my legs leave the ground (friend got a picture) but it didn't stop me from fighting.

to add to the topic something i actualy did while dueling single blue. first you take the high guard and fake i shot to the shoulder or area close to that then while they go to block that area sweep up the groin.
remind you i only did it once and that was for fun and to see if it worked. it did.
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Postby Roland Demox » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:11 am

This has already been mentioned before but trying to hit a noticeably injured area. As Big Jimmy said you should go for any openings however at a realm practice you know whos got some minor injuries and where, and its not difficult to just not hit that spot. Also at events, if somebody is wearing a knee brace or other brace of some sort, dont hit the braced area

this one isnt really a shot but its still a * move. Not taking a solid shot
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:27 pm

Dowjin wrote:J hooks.


Dowjin, would you explain what you mean? When I think of a "J hook", I think of a specific SCA trick that drops the sword behind the opponents shield, but rises into his forehead just clearing the top of the shield at the last moment. I'm assuming you mean something else.
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Postby savetuba » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:30 pm

same kind of maneuver, just aimed for the crotch.
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Postby MagnusofDregoth » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:59 pm

Spike wrote:Here's another something I consider a punk * move:

If someone steps out of bounds but are nowhere near being engaged in active combat, and you're standing there screaming "Hey! You stepped off the edge of the world! You're DEAD!"

This one * me off because, yeah, he's technically dead, but that rule is only there to protect spectators from becoming entangled in combat. If no fighting is going on in that area or there are no spectators/equipment nearby and you're using "out of bounds" as an advantage just to not have to fight an extra person, you are not a punk * but in fact a punk * *.


YES. This is something that the Marshals sould be on the lookout for--especially in the midwest, where the fields are all really big, every boundary can be a soft boundary.
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Postby Kyrax » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:46 pm

Thomas MacFinn wrote:
savetuba wrote:thrusting your spear into a shield man's shield causing the back of the shield to slap them in the face.


While I have never tried to hit anyone in the face, I think moving shields around to aid your allies is one of the primary purposes of any weapon over 8 ft long. I thrust at them, smack them and comment afterward almost every time somebody leans forward to rest his chin on his shield or tries to peek around an edge inches from his nose.


I agree Thomas. I hit the face of the shield to move it, to distract the fighter, to disrupt their defences, to move the shield one way or another to create an opening for me or another ally, etc.

If there's a problem are on the back of your shield that you don't want to get hit by, PAD IT! Sorry, no sympathy here - you aren't required to pad the back side of your shield because you are the person most likely to be hit by it. You makes your choices and you get to live with the results.
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Postby MagnusofDregoth » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:19 pm

Although, I have been hit by the unpadded back of someone else's shield, when I was gimped and he was trying to shield bash me in the face. That put me out of commission for about an hour.
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Postby savetuba » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:29 pm

pommel strikes. I'm guilty of doing such to people who continue to say light to a good hit. And when they complain(usually *) about it I always reply, 'OH? So you did feel that.'

And for those quick to judge, it is usually after the 3rd time of questioning, 'Why didn't you take your hits' and being told 'I didn't feel them'.
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Postby Kenneth » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:39 pm

I strongly advocate against presuming your hits have landed with sufficient force, thinly accusing the other person is cheating by not taking your hits, and blatantly hitting somebody with a non-striking surface. Why not just punch them a few times with your handguard or flat of your sword and call it a day?

If you have a problem with somebody's hit taking, maybe you should hit them harder or have a Marshall deal with it. Apparently I have to remind people this is a game. The goal is to play hard, not play to injure.
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Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:41 pm

savetuba wrote:pommel strikes. I'm guilty of doing such to people who continue to say light to a good hit. And when they complain(usually *) about it I always reply, 'OH? So you did feel that.'

And for those quick to judge, it is usually after the 3rd time of questioning, 'Why didn't you take your hits' and being told 'I didn't feel them'.


O_O

I don't think any one post has ever shocked me that much.

If I ever saw someone intentionally pommel strike as a marshal I would go BALLISTIC. I don't care who you are, "you don't hit with this part" is pretty f-in basic.
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Postby Pierce » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:
savetuba wrote:pommel strikes. I'm guilty of doing such to people who continue to say light to a good hit. And when they complain(usually *) about it I always reply, 'OH? So you did feel that.'

And for those quick to judge, it is usually after the 3rd time of questioning, 'Why didn't you take your hits' and being told 'I didn't feel them'.


O_O

I don't think any one post has ever shocked me that much.

If I ever saw someone intentionally pommel strike as a marshal I would go BALLISTIC. I don't care who you are, "you don't hit with this part" is pretty f-in basic.


Quoted for truth.
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Postby Olos » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:05 pm

Pierce wrote:
Big Jimmy wrote:
savetuba wrote:pommel strikes. I'm guilty of doing such to people who continue to say light to a good hit. And when they complain(usually *) about it I always reply, 'OH? So you did feel that.'

And for those quick to judge, it is usually after the 3rd time of questioning, 'Why didn't you take your hits' and being told 'I didn't feel them'.


O_O

I don't think any one post has ever shocked me that much.

If I ever saw someone intentionally pommel strike as a marshal I would go BALLISTIC. I don't care who you are, "you don't hit with this part" is pretty f-in basic.


Quoted for truth.


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Postby Od1n » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:10 pm

savetuba wrote:pommel strikes. I'm guilty of doing such to people who continue to say light to a good hit. And when they complain(usually *) about it I always reply, 'OH? So you did feel that.'

And for those quick to judge, it is usually after the 3rd time of questioning, 'Why didn't you take your hits' and being told 'I didn't feel them'.



hahaha pretty blatant troll attempt.

but yeah I'm pretty sure if you did this at chaos, you will get punched in the throat and possibly banned for the day/event.
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Postby savetuba » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:16 pm

OK, so I swing the red & hit the guy and bowl him over. I walk up to see if he is ok and he hits me twice in the body. Laughing he says I'm dead, gets up and runs off to ignore other hits.

I pull him to one side and we review the rules.

Ignores them again.

I walk him through the steps of this is a good hit and this isn't.

Ignores the rules again. Other people start complaining.

I pull him to one side and ask him why he is still here if we wasn't going to play by the rules.

I use pommel hits as a LAST resort and usually as a last resort to those who OBVIOUSLY cheat.

Don't believe me? ask any of the 50+ people I have met, fought with, trained, and trust. Most will wonder if you are talking about the same person as he who posts on THIS board.
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