Belegarth

by **Dacian** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:43 am

Perhaps it's just me, but I've never seen an effective spin in the middle of combat.

At least, everytime someone pulls off a "pretty" spin, it confuses them moreso than the person they're fighting. I've always just hit them in the back if they feel comfortable enough to spin basically in a circle right in front of me. It *might* work against a newbie once in awhile, but still...

Do people pull these "spins" off generally speaking on your local fields?

I can't imagine they're as effective as I've heard some people say.

by **Thorondor** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:47 am

I have pulled off spin defenses before. Normally when its me against 3 or more people and I'm legged. It doesn't happen often, but if I can get moving quick enough it confuses people. It's a LOT of shield movement and also a bunch of luck hoping your next block is where the next attack is going to hit, etc.

Effective, not really. Fun and confusing for an opponent, sure is.

by **Dane** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:13 am

I usually combine a spin with a leg shot when deliberately giving up ground. I lead with my sword-side leg to get the range on the shot and follow through with a spin to end in a defensive stance. I usually evade the counter swing.

Also, if you have an opponent that throws the high cross predictably, you can time a reverse spin to evade the shot and give you a counter swing on their sword-side, given your opponent fights with the same primary hand you do.

Good spins seem to be situational, and I've never seen an effective fighter use them as a 'bread and butter' type maneuver.

by **Dabbanoth** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:15 am

I spin quite a bit, and down to the root of it, i have three that work:

Sheild side spin, where i use the spin to give myself absolute maximum range with my weapon hand, and open up the persons weapon side. I rarely see this one work without a serious amount of gangle

Backspin, this is where i do a full body turn around to my right, and spin my sheild with it, the best way i can think of to describe the motion of my sheild is to imagine there is a stationary pole running though the center of your sheild, and you can rotate it, but not move it otherwise. I like this one because it covers most of your body, and when you do the spin, most people freeze up and dont think to throw the only easy shot - a leg.

The Back Block, Pretty simple, putting your sheild behind your back as you retreat, or if you hear someone running up behind you.

Dacian, when we get that sparring i owe you, i might be able to explain better, this stuff is hard over text

by **Thomas MacFinn** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:21 am

Spins are big and obvious. If you are going to do a spin, I strongly suggest it be done right if it is ever going to work. Here is a good video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &q=amtgard

Notice that the guy making the video aknowledges that these are all "low percentage" shots and rely on surprise as much as technique. Even with that, I notice he waits until 18:06 to introduce the spin stab and 20:07 for the reverse spin and makes a big point of using the shield to protect the exposed back. At 23:13 when he introduces his third spin, he goes on to say "if you ever want to make your opponent feel like a no-skill punk, this is the shot to do it with."

For myself, I have only been hit by a spin once that I can remember. I was fighting Dagganoth (who loves spins) and another person and Dag spun away from his partner just as the partner was swinging and I had a choice of which shot to block.

However, because the spin pulls the swordside foot forward and lets you stretch out the swordarm, I do think the spin would work well for long-armed fighters againt newbies that cannot judge range well or to slow a rush against an oponent without a shield or against opponents who don't have the reach to counterstrike or (since it is such a big and obvious move) to distract opponents away from what other fighters are doing.

by **Dacian** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:41 am

I know my brother (Zao) has one spin shot that I've been working on, and it's the only spin shot I've *ever* seen work.

Usually single blue or sword and board:

He's right handed, and so am I so here it is...

When their shield is very relaxed and sloppy, it works great. Starting from a defensive stance (I know, weird) take a large step into an offensive stance. As you do this, you're reaching out with your weapon in a crossover (straight shot crossover, not wide at all). Also, when you step, you twist your body (and shield) to your shield side.

When you do this, the "spin" is already halfway over. During your step, flip your shield behind you (they will automatically go for your "wide open" back) and step away from your opponent. Follow through to finish the spin, and you're back into a defensive position.

It may sound complicated, but it works like crazy. I'll be posting "how-to's" once Spring hits, so I'll be able to show it then in a video.

Remember, this is a low-medium percentage shot, so be careful with it. It looks great though, and actually puts you in a strong position. It's very much of a "get in/get out quick" move.

I've been screwed with it though, cause the only thing I've seen to stop it 100% of the time is a nice little shield check mid-spin...rat bastards. Oh, and they have good coverage.

Anyways...I've just heard people talk about some spins in which they just spin around in front of you. I've seen it happen (to me and others) and it just doesn't work...it's kinda sad in a way really....but yes....

by **Dacian** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:48 am

Thomas, I looked where you were talking about at 20:07, and that's *basically* what I'm talking about. Personally I like to "snap" my elbow (which can be dangerous if done wrong) with a whip like motion, and also, my wrist stays strong, but with a hard snap at the end. Kind of like a hard whip motion.

And I agree. Spins *are* big and obvious. I think that's why so many people regret trying them and get punked down almost everytime.

by **Arrakis** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:11 pm

The only spin I throw with any consistency is a spin clockwise looking down at me. I use it, with a big, gnarly fake to start it, in order to throw a stronger shot out past my shield side. That's usually an unexpected weapon-side shot against another right-handed opponent.

I've never been killed in the middle of a spin, but I also don't throw spins when I figure it's likely to telegraph.

by **MagnusofDregoth** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:27 pm

I used to get people with spins a lot when no one else had seen them, because they were a big new thing and I could catch people by surprise. Now I don't do the straight spin (clockwise, for a righty) because, although I don't get hit in the back when I do it, my opponent can almost always block.

In my experience, a spin is most likely to work when you change your line of attack, generally from high to low. I do the reverse spin to attack the leg, and it works very, very often. The spin portion doesn't so much get you into position for the attack, but rather it gives more speed and momentum to it, and allows you to make a much bigger lunge than normal, since the spin helps you recover. I think it's the best way to make a long-range leg attack, and while it's not a high-percentage shot, it's not particularly low-percentage, you just need to practice shot placement. But, more importantly, it's a very low risk shot, once you learn how to place your shield to protect your back properly.

by **Ignatius** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:59 pm

Gambit from Shannara does some fairly effective spin moves. But he fights flor n' board or really funky florentine. I think the only reason his spins are effective is his unorthodox style and speed. That said, he seems to use the spins sparingly and as more of a surprise attack than an effective bread and butter move.

by **Cib** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:15 pm

I often throw a shot, that shot can also be faked and then quickly turned in to a quick spin, seems to work ok.

by **slippy** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:55 am

i find that spins can help be a defensive and somtimes offensive move if used right but i wouldn't suggest doing them often. i have had spins work multiple times for me but i am in a noob realm. most of my spins are to get out of danger or to get behind someone (only works if you are close enough and use their body like a wall) and it seems to work.

by **MagnusofDregoth** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:32 pm

Another thing about spins is that you can use your weapon (swords are best for this) to protect your back as you come out of the spin. Make sure you hold it at a downward angle of 45 degrees from your neck or head, so it won't be anviling. This can do a lot to deflect or stop shots to your back, if you have trouble getting out of range quickly enough.

by **Shratisfaction** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:01 pm

it seems to work for pundits just fine.
-rimshot-

by **Garath de Lorac** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:41 pm

For mid-experienced opponents, while weilding a greatsword, theres a suprisingly effective spin. Fake a shoulder shot to their shield side, swing to the feet, then as that shot is blocked/dodged/strikes, lift the pommel high, so the gsword is vertical in your your hands. Keeping the gsword stationary, spin underneath your arms, and continue into a upward strike, under a shield check. Again, good shieldsmen? not gonna work.

Same feint, or shoulder shot, make them pull their shield high to block their vision. When they do, spin quickly with the rebound of the shot, and strike weapon side arm or leg. That one is actually pretty reliable, until they get used to it.

Garath de Lorac

by **Roland Demox** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:52 pm

http://youtube.com/watch?v=w-OuXH8Nl_I

Zenith Darkheart. He pulled of that spin to complete the Hellhammer barrel making him a full member of the unit. The opponent he killed with the green symbol on his heater is SIR Killian. Zenith hit many other spins like this, all worked well for him.

Spinning depends on how you fight and how well you can pull off the spin

by **The Great Gigsby** » Thu May 01, 2008 12:42 am

That's a wicked spin for sure. It looks like Killian overcommitted to the shoulder chop giving Zenith the opportunity to roll with the Killian's momentum and do the spin.

by **Roland Demox** » Thu May 01, 2008 12:11 pm

I award Giggles 10 points for impressing me. I havent heard anybody break down a move to that extent since I was in MMA. and they say you cats from the V.B dont kno what theyre talking about

But yes that is one situation where Zenith pulled it off, if you look there are about 20 more videos of Zenith barreling, Some of them have him pulling off spins, alot of them in different situations (2 on 1 to kill one and take it down to 1 on 1). It actually is pretty cool

by **Thomas MacFinn** » Thu May 01, 2008 10:45 pm

If I ever watch that video again, I'm turning off the sound. That is one ear splitting scream.

by **Derian** » Fri May 02, 2008 12:02 am

You should see some of the spins he was doing when he first started. That video was at the end of the barrel, over an hour in.

by **The Great Gigsby** » Fri May 02, 2008 3:31 am

De'Mox wrote:and they say you cats from the V.B dont kno what theyre talking about ;)

Who say dat? They're just envious.

I don't really think much of spins personally since I'm a dirty cheater -- I mean lefty. There are fundamental shots that'll land far more often for less effort, but spinning can occasionally catch someone off guard. I think Zenith does better when his spins are used as a response to an attack and not as opener in itself. Also, he doesn't seem to feint when opening. You can tell several times in that clip that he opens with a spin and gets punished for it more often than not. Whatever. He's still a better fighter than most.

by **Roland Demox** » Fri May 02, 2008 8:24 am

Derian: Mygan told him to lay off the spin because ppl were starting to realize he was doing it and preparing it. Thus taking away the whole suprise attack needed for a spin.

Giggles: Im am truly impressed. Again, I have heard very little breaking down technique in this game, and that was a welcome relief. Zenith is a great fighter, I mean the man is teaching me, everything except the spin, he refuses to teach me that move lol

by **Peanut of Loderia** » Sun May 04, 2008 12:24 pm

The reason Zenith's shot is so effective is because he can pull it anytime. He knows it well enough to be able to throw it when standing, running or falling down (yes, I have seen him do it)

by **Aidin Darkheart** » Sun May 04, 2008 1:11 pm

Me and Zenith both throw our own type of spinshot.

His is a full spin that he has mastered quite well and has a good defensive maneuver for. he knows when to use it and how to use it effectively. most people, even if they know it's coming, find it hard to block the spin that he throws.

Mine, taken from his, is more of a pivot than a full spin. I pivot with my left foot and throw the shot, usually hitting the side or leg of the opponent. i don't like to do a full spin shot anymore. i used to do them more and better executed but i'm also taller than my brother so my shots are harder to pull off than they used to be.Also i stopped using the spin shot for a long amount of time which cost me the ability to throw it very well. i barely throw my current spin shot as I find it harder to do since I don't full turn.

his is ultimately more effetive than my own and he's definitely got a better spin shot than most of the people who have tried to do it while fighting me.

by **Big King Jimmy** » Sun May 04, 2008 11:42 pm

Zenith's spin is also an example of practice makes perfect. He throws that shot A LOT, and over time it's paid off more and more. Especially when he comes up on fighters he doesn't fight all the time. I mean, a lot of us that fight him on a regular basis prepare for it now (not that it doesn't smoke me most of the time) but on guys that just aren't used to it it can be a one shot easy.

by **Jeean** » Mon May 05, 2008 3:25 pm

I flourenteen more than anything so i die a lot (xD!) and i think the biggest reason is because i'm not very aggressive; so in my attempts to be more aggressive i've gotten more up-close-n-personal with people.

An easy way to close distance and put yourself uncomfortably close without charging is to put one foot forward and spin ur other foot around behind you to turn and put your body right against their shield (or w/e) ^__^ usually i lead this move with a swing or 2 but i find it an easy way to place their striking range out of wack.

Maybe hard to understand, but for a spin i think this is the easiest and most usefull spin i have seen

(teach it to noobs n they'll feel all kewl >.> i tried).

I agree with a bunch of you guys that most successful spins are accidental or a reflex though ^^; but nonetheless fun to try!

by **Xemeo** » Mon May 05, 2008 5:24 pm

De'Mox wrote:http://youtube.com/watch?v=w-OuXH8Nl_I

Zenith Darkheart. He pulled of that spin to complete the Hellhammer barrel making him a full member of the unit. The opponent he killed with the green symbol on his heater is SIR Killian. Zenith hit many other spins like this, all worked well for him.

Spinning depends on how you fight and how well you can pull off the spin

Zenith's spin is also an example of practice makes perfect. He throws that shot A LOT, and over time it's paid off more and more. Especially when he comes up on fighters he doesn't fight all the time. I mean, a lot of us that fight him on a regular basis prepare for it now (not that it doesn't smoke me most of the time) but on guys that just aren't used to it it can be a one shot easy.

It looks like he throws a spin shot 3 times in that video...within the first 15 seconds.[/quote]

by **Alunsun** » Mon May 05, 2008 8:32 pm

Xemeo, your pic is the best! UO FTMUthafrixxing W!
Mr. Joker- GL- N1NJ4

4 l1l=3

P.S. Still, Frick GM's

by **savetuba** » Wed May 07, 2008 1:10 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTTTaYictro&NR=1

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by **Big King Jimmy** » Wed May 07, 2008 2:28 am

I love that video, that spin is so smokin fast he doesn't even bother putting his shield behind him.

by **Sir_Mel** » Wed May 07, 2008 9:58 am

Jimmy, you have no idea. We fought that guy at SKBC, it's not even funny. He might actually contend Peter on quickness.

by **Brennon EH** » Wed May 07, 2008 10:02 am

I think that's Sir Robin out of Blackspire. That spin only worked because he was fighting an extremely low-skill fighter. It hinged on a very over-commited high cross from his opponent.

He threw a shot to bait for the high cross, force it further out with his shield, trapping it harmlessly away, and then spun out from his shield to hit the guy.

by **Dane** » Wed May 07, 2008 10:49 am

That's when the reverse spin is its most effective: when countering a high cross.

by **Dacian** » Wed May 07, 2008 2:25 pm

that guy is FAST. I don't think I've ever seen anyone spin so fast. Incredible.

by **Brennon EH** » Wed May 07, 2008 5:21 pm

Squire Dacian wrote:that guy is FAST. I don't think I've ever seen anyone spin so fast. Incredible.

I'm sorry, but I'm new here. Are you being fecitious?

by **Big King Jimmy** » Wed May 07, 2008 6:03 pm

No, he's being sincere.

by **Kenneth** » Wed May 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Brennon, if that's the same "Sir Robin" I've been hearing about, Spyn has described him as FAST FAST FAST.

I don't think the move was particularly fast, but I do not reach any conclusions on whether he himself is fast. My best guess is people who mentally break down fighting styles see a bit more than the pure velocity of his swing.

Edit: The pure velocity of the swing is not as high as I may have thought it was. For this particular shot at least, I agree with Brennon that it was not extraordinarily impressive. Relative to the other guy, he looked pretty good though.

by **Brennon EH** » Wed May 07, 2008 9:10 pm

That's what a properly executed spin should look like. It wasn't fast, he just moved his feet, hips, shoulder, and arm in unison.

The footwork, which you can't see, was probably pretty good though. Notice how he maintains balance the entire time.

I'll see if I can scare up some video of something done fast and post if for comparison. If you put the two right next to each other, I think what I'm meaning will be clearer.

by **Kenneth** » Wed May 07, 2008 9:36 pm

Ehh...every time I look at it from the perspective of the guy getting hit, it just looks like its coming. He keeps shifting to his left and raising up high. From there, it seems to me a shot is going to be coming from the right.

From his perspective, the technique was pretty good. I just don't see anything extraordinarily impressive. Maybe I'm getting more jaded though.

My understanding is that if Spyn had the chance to teach Robin better technique, Robin would be unstoppable. *Shrug* Guess one of them has to move!

by **Spyn** » Wed May 07, 2008 9:57 pm

In that video the spin shot is rather well performed but nothing outa the ordinary. I called him fast based on how much he moves his arms when he fights versus what i or brennon do with better foot placement and proper form. In the skbc 08 pavilion ditch part 2 ,you can see how he moves way to much ,yet still is able to string decent combos together. If he cleaned his form up and had a much better technique he would be a much better fighter and able to take advantage of being fast with his hands. I dont know if that made any sense at all to the layman.

Spyn

by **Brennon EH** » Wed May 07, 2008 9:57 pm

Kenneth wrote:From his perspective, the technique was pretty good. I just don't see anything extraordinarily impressive. Maybe I'm getting more jaded though.

No, I think you're spot on. It was good, it was solid, it was well done, but it wasn't anything special. The impressive thing is that it got caught on film

My understanding is that if Spyn had the chance to teach Robin better technique, Robin would be unstoppable.

Oh, I don't think anybody is unstoppable. He would be better, definitely. Speed and technique is a strong combination, but technique is the more important of the two by far.

I think Robin is at the point where he has a lot of natural physical ability (speed), and an average grasp on fighting as a concept. In his environment, that will take him a very long way. From a certain standpoint, this is unfourtunate. Consider Shaq: He isn't a good basketball player... And he doesn't need to be. He's an average player with enourmous physical gifts that allow him to excel. Imagine how he would be with Jordans grasp of the game and technique. Because Robin doesn't have to learn those things to excel in his environment, he may never learn them. Does it diminish his ability on the field? Obviously not, but it does mean he's going to be at a serious disadvantage when he runs into somebody with a lot of technical ability.

Rath, for instance, is guy with very little in the way of speed. You could describe his fighting style as lacksadaisical, even. He does have copious amounts of timing, technique, and range control. This generally leads to a situation where a lot of very fast fighters get very frustrated fighting him. He shouldn't be beating them, but he is, and they don't understand why.

Anyway, I'm threadjacking and tangenting. Suffice to say I wish Robin lived in Texas. I think it would be good for everybody involved.

Also, I love all of ya'lls comments and points of view. Insightful and interesting. I appreciate the opportunity this board affords me. Thank you.

by **Olos** » Wed May 07, 2008 10:05 pm

Nah, makes perfect sense Spyn. Wasted motion slows you down, no matter what level you are at.

And also, I don't think most belegarth fighters see too many people that work on spins enough to get really good at them, so a shot that is really just well put together, but not spectacular looks pretty good from our perspective because we don't have as much of a base of comparison.

On a related note though, I am loving all of this crossover.

edit: and one of these days i'll find the time to watch your seminar thing brennon.

by **Big King Jimmy** » Wed May 07, 2008 10:50 pm

Brennon EH wrote:Also, I love all of ya'lls comments and points of view. Insightful and interesting. I appreciate the opportunity this board affords me. Thank you.

After watching the SKBC stuff for so long it feels more like having a celebrity on our boards. I know it probably doesn't feel that way from your perspective, but you watch the same video 50 times and then get the chance to interact with the person... I'm sure it's the way Mel felt when he visited you guys.

Btw, last years SKBC video the whole part about guarding your shoulder or guarding your balls is the funniest segment in a training video ever.

As for the spin, I think part of it might be that it's on film and not live. The actual spin itself, not neccisarily the shot, seem so fast, but it might be because the quality is so low you get that "It's so fast I can't see what's going on" feeling.

Also, looking at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7MVcH9r ... re=related

at about 12 seconds you see what looks like Robin blocking a shot by placing his sword against his body. Anviling in Belegarth terms, is that a legal block in Amtgard?

by **Olos** » Wed May 07, 2008 11:00 pm

From talking to an amtgard guy who frequents Arnor, yes, anvilling is a valid block.

by **Augustine** » Wed May 07, 2008 11:55 pm

I'm fairly new to belegarth, but I've had some training with live steel. I've never thought spins were that useful-- if anything, spins seem to be more of an immediate reflex to take a blow to the back instead of the front. The only time I've found spinning works is with a dagger, and only then if it's begun with a feint to one side and the spin delivers the dagger into the opposite side. If you're at the point where you have to get fancy with a dagger, though, you're probably in trouble anyway. Better to not get into the situation where you need to fight somebody off with a dagger, I think.

by **Brennon EH** » Thu May 08, 2008 6:47 am

Olos wrote:From talking to an amtgard guy who frequents Arnor, yes, anvilling is a valid block.

It is legal in Amtgard, but generally considered poor form (not cheese or poor sportsmanship, but literal 'poor form'). Looking at that video, I think that particular block is totally blind; He's just throwing his sword across his back to block anything that might come. With his sword behind his shoulder, he can't possibly block with strength of arm or wrist, so he blocks with his body itself.

I think the proper response would have been to either step further out and avoid the shot with footwork, step in much closer to prevent him from having any targets, or kill the guy before moving on.

I'm getting the impression Robin is 'hot-rodding' for the camera.

by **Ixous** » Thu May 08, 2008 11:49 am

Not so sure that I should post here, only because I am not an intellectual fighter at all. I cannot really break down what i do when it comes to fighting.

My body tends to just react when i fight. I have used the spin shot quite a bit when i fight, but i can say it rarely works in duels. I tend to reserve it for showing off in a large battle situation. When there is a large amount of meat on the field, i seem to think that a spin can work well. Like someone said before, it can be confusing, and on a large field, there is a great deal that can divert your attention.

I can say that like Robyn, I am a very physically gifted fighter with being naturally athletic. I also lack technique in many cases, but make up for it with presence on the field. You may never see me win a tournament, but i will be spinning across the field like an angry Skip-It.

by **Ramius** » Fri May 30, 2008 2:24 am

I know Jimmy digs this stuff:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wAy7byVn21Y

Clalibus (shorter, on the left, and spinning) vs. Leif (taller, on the right, and dying)

Why It's Cool: Great spin shot following a great setup; two of the best in Amtgard (Clalibus has won more Kingdom tournies then god; Leif is considered by many to be the top fighter in Amtgard)

Enjoy!

-Ramius

*edited because I am a moron*

by **Aegis** » Fri May 30, 2008 4:55 am

bad link. I think you were trying for

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wAy7byVn21Y

a very fast spin, hard to follow the footwork, I watched it many many times, and its hard to tell where his feet are as the first shot is thrown, but it almost appears that he is leaning back and throwing the shot with his center of balance off and then spinning off to the side to complete the followup, Its a great move until someone reads it coming and bashes you mid stride and you flop into the dirt on your face. He did a good job of not telegraphing it however.

by **Roland Demox** » Fri May 30, 2008 7:57 pm

Wow awesome spin, Ive been trying to find good shots to do with a round shield (switching from using a punch shield) I will definatly be studying that video and trying to add spin shot to my bag of tricks

Belegarth

Spins

Spins

Greatsword

bleh

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