Belegarth combat viewed from an Outsider

[Vitus]

With your permission and consent, I'd like to give my thoughts and observances about the Belegarth combat style.

[Soo Ma Tai]

go right ahead

[Dr. Kazi]

We have open minds (most of us). Fire away.

[Pierce]

I know I dont mind.

[Vitus]

Your weapons are so much lighter than their historical counterparts that some of you are moving at almost super-human speed. This seems to cause most fights to involve an amazing amount of simultaneous kills. I rarely saw a fight where a combatant was able to avoid being struck, even when two-hand sword fighters faced shieldmen.

Alot of you guys seem to block with your hands- alot. I don't think I saw a crossguard on a single sword.

With weapons that weigh less than half of what period weapons weighed, the speed you generate is terrific, but most of the blows seem to lack cutting power. Often it seemed that the guy who struck first -by a milisecond- won the fight, but most of the time the opponents weapon was in flight at the moment that the "win" occured. Doesn't this cause confusion? If the first blow landed was light, and the second blow landing is true and with power, does the first super-fast tap shot win the fight?

Head shots. If a guy has a helmet, why can't you hit him in the head? Oh wait- I just figured it out, that would cause somebody who is better armoured to be fighting at a distinct disadvantage. That makes sense.

Does the presence of body and limb armour give the wearer advantage? If a thick leather cuisse or vambrace takes the power out of a shot, does it rob the shot of significance? It seems to me that the naked guy running around in just pants and a hat gets alot of advantages for not wearing any armour. This seems totally wrong to me.

Your game looks like a crapload of fun, and I wish I were 15 again so I could fight with you guys.

[Dabbanoth]

I rarely saw a fight where a combatant was able to avoid being struck, even when two-hand sword fighters faced shieldmen.

Thats really thing only thing you said that bothers me, i think that is pretty widly untrue, and if thats all that you saw, then there's probably a problem.

[Elohssa Y'trid]

Armor grants an extra hit. There's your armor advantage.

If we allowed head shots, we would have to require people to wear helmets. And if we REQUIRED everyone to wear a helmet, we'd lose a lot of the accessibility we like to have. Belegarth, in my experience, prides itself on the relatively low cost required to start fighting. We pad the weapons, not the people. We don't have required armor, and we don't want to.

Our weapons are light, yeah, and I'm sure by SCA standards, hit pretty softly, but they hit enough to know you've been hit. There's impact there, no doubt, and a lot of shots look weaker than they are because we are pulling back to throw another shot, instead of following through with "proper" technique. We hit each other plenty hard.


Perhaps you were having trouble keeping up with watching us, because I'd have to disagree with most of what you said.

[Pierce]

1. The reason for lighter weapons is more for playability than history. It also is up to the player to choose the weapons weight when building.
Plus we use far from the lightest weapons.

2. Hand blocking with the hand on the sword is treated as though it has a gauntlet or a basket gaurd.

3. Armour no matter the thickness only offers a single extra point to the target area it covers.

4. You dont need to be 15 to play, I'm sure you're younger than our oldest player.

[MagnusofDregoth]

Thanks for your comments, you expressed them frankly but fairly.

I agree that sometimes it seems like simultaneous kills are the norm, but I think you will find that it's often not the case. When it's hard to determine who hit first, then we usually call it a simultaneous bout and do it again. One thing you may not have taken into account, though, is that when one-on-one fighting is going on it's usually done to single-kill, so if there is a simultaneous back and arm hit, then the fighter getting hit in the back has lost.

As far as weapon weights go, there actually is a wide variance. My swords weigh around 20-22oz (so, over half weight for historical weapons their side, about 36-38") but they still handle as well as the bare-minimum 12oz swords because of their weight distribution. My mace weighs about 12.1 ounces, but it doesn't handle as well because it's weighted as a mace, not a sword.

It is true that the fighting takes place at very high speeds, but that doesn't necessarily translate to making speed the only consideration. Someone can be the fastest fighter on the field, but if he moves in very predictable ways then he probably won't rack up many kills against experienced fighters. Conversely, a slower fighter who has a wide range of techniques and a good sense of timing will probably clean up against a group of blazing-fast but undisciplined fighters.

Crossguards aren't very useful because of the high speed of combat. I build them onto some of my weapons, but they are useful for aesthetic purposes more than actual defense.

So, thanks again for your comments, and I hope you'll be able to show up on the field some time soon. It would also be great to see your shield- and weapon-building experience translate to our fighting style.

[Ralimar]

The truth is... we're all just pretending that we're actually fighting with lightsabers.

[MagnusofDregoth]

Fact.

[Judas]

With weapons that weigh less than half of what period weapons weighed, the speed you generate is terrific, but most of the blows seem to lack cutting power. Often it seemed that the guy who struck first -by a milisecond- won the fight, but most of the time the opponents weapon was in flight at the moment that the "win" occured. Doesn't this cause confusion? If the first blow landed was light, and the second blow landing is true and with power, does the first super-fast tap shot win the fight?.

Generally speaking, simultaneous kills are handled as “re-dos” in sparing and tournaments and mutual deaths on the field. What’s more is that we use a “shot in motion” rule vs. an atomic clock. Gauging if a blow is sufficiently strong enough or not is up to the receiver. Personally I take everything I feel, to keep the peace, but there are some people who will shrug glancing blows or taps.
I think the abundance of simultaneous shots is due to lack of technique. It takes a great deal of skill to land a blow without leaving yourself vulnerable. I’m not one of them but I know several fighters who are nearly “untouchable” in single sword combat. I’ve found that most people in this game do a sort of stick-and-move attack versus defending and attacking at the same time. This becomes a contest of reach and speed rather than power and strength.

Hidden away in the back yards of Butchertown we should spar sometime, just so you can get a feel for the differences between SCA and Belegarth combat. I’ll wear my helm so if you hit me in the head you won’t knock me out.

[Dane]

With weapons that weigh less than half of what period weapons weighed, the speed you generate is terrific, but most of the blows seem to lack cutting power. Often it seemed that the guy who struck first -by a milisecond- won the fight, but most of the time the opponents weapon was in flight at the moment that the "win" occured. Doesn't this cause confusion? If the first blow landed was light, and the second blow landing is true and with power, does the first super-fast tap shot win the fight?

We use an honor system relying on the person receiving the shot to determine if it struck with sufficient force to cause injury, just like the SCA. Some fighters will take very light taps and count them as hits, and others require a more sincere blow to take damage. Time has created a perceived median and mode for what qualifies as sufficient force among fighters, and the majority of fighters' hit calibration falls at or near that standard.

As far as simultaneous kills and people dying while their shot is in motion, whether or not the tardy shot counts as a hit depends on a number of factors. The interpretation of what constitutes a shot arriving in time varies from person to person. Some play by the "1/2 second rule," meaning that if the shot lands within half of a second of the first shot, it counts. In Khazad-dum, we play "shot in motion," meaning if the shot was on its way before the opponent's blow lands, it counts. In either case, it's up to the person throwing the second shot to call his or her own shot "late" so that his or her opponent knows whether or not the shot was valid.

Some fighters - especially newer, reckless fighters - will go into the "throes of death," throwing a number of shots well after they've been dispatched as though they were giving some final, valiant effort. Heralds can call those shots invalid, and sometimes, if the shots are blatantly late, the receiving fighter will call them "light" as a way of not taking the invalid shots while avoiding a rules confrontation in the middle of a round. Other fighters will say, "Your shots were late, and I'm not taking them," and others will take the shots but discuss timely shot throwing with the opponent afterward. Still, other fighters will simply take the late shots without complaint.

I'm curious as to where you observed our sport. My experiences in Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, and the National Events I've been to have convinced me that the vast majority of battles, outside of class one sparring, have a clear winner; simultaneous kills occur with much less regularity, at least from what I've seen.

[Vitus]

No, some of you dudes were hitting each other pretty hard at times, I just couldn't tell the difference in how the quality of a blow is measured. Does this make sense? I saw alot of tappy-tap silliness done at ridiculously high speeds, and other times I saw HARD blows delivered at what seemed like a historical speed. However, it seemed that the unrealistic approach was more advantageous. I'm not saying that is true, it just seemed that way.

I saw a competant sword/shieldman fighting a * sword fighter. Every pass seemed the same- with the shieldman delivering a body wrap while at exactly the same time he was hit in the shins. I just couldn't tell who was winning. No matter how many fights I watched I couldn't tell who was winning. I'm just going to keep coming to Belegarth practices until I can figure it out. It's definitely my problem.

I think that the speed in which fights are finished was a factor, but I guess I'm also used to the sound of heavy sticks hitting steel and heavy leather armour. There was very little sound from all the padding.

I have studied western/medieval martial arts for 21 years now, and the Belegarth system is probably the best system for unarmoured combat I have yet seen. For armoured combat I just think the combination of light padded weapons and armoured combatants doesn't jive unless you are really used to doing it, as opposed to just casually watching it.

As an SCA knight I cannot really afford to try to learn two systems. Muscle memory is a powerful thing. I am used to a good shot hurting or knocking my brain around inside my skull a bit.

The skill level of some of the Belegarth fighters was truly astounding. Very impressive. I am interested in armoured combat, and I don't know how to call a shot from a boffer "good" or "light." I am also interested in historical armour, and I saw very little of that on the field.

But as an affordable, safe combat sport, Belegarth is *' 100% awesome. I have two (maybe three) kids who I am bringing out to fight with youse guys. I have an 11 year old who will DIG IT.

[Vitus]

Concerning "late" shots-

The historical record suggests that in unarmoured combat a returned blow that is delivered even two seconds after a fatal blow is received will often result in the death or extreme injury of both combatants. In short, sword fights where two people are wearing street clothes will -a vast majority of the time- result in a double-kill. Therefore it seems unhistorical and not martially valid that a "late" shot would not be counted. The purpose of studying a martial art is to learn to survive. I think that is what I was tripping out on. If I consider the weapons used in Belegarth combat to be real, a vast majority of the unarmoured fights I saw would have resulted in the death of both combatants- that is what I mean by "winning."

If I did Belegarth combat I would have to consider it absolute unarmoured combat, because my goal would be to hit you without getting hit at all. This is a completely different type of fighting. In the middle ages there were two types of combat approaches taught- armoured and unarmoured. These two approaches changed very little from the era 600-1600 C.E.

I have been trained in armoured combat, where blows from heavy weapons must be delivered with high levels of power to break the man within the shell. Unarmoured combat takes alot more knowlege of footwork etc. I think the Belegarth system is a *perfect* system for practicing unarmoured combat where only street clothes (of whatever era) stand between you and getting CUT VERY BADLY.

[Brennon EH]

Vitus, you might have an easier time with some of this if you think of Belegarth more as a sport and less of a medeival martial art. It's a lot like fencing in that regard; It has it's roots in a martial art, but is highly stylized into a sport.

[Vitus]

Yeah, but the way your weapons are made makes the situation perfect for studying sword combat out of armour.
And that is a good thing!

[Roland Demox]

Head shots. If a guy has a helmet, why can't you hit him in the head? Oh wait- I just figured it out, that would cause somebody who is better armoured to be fighting at a distinct disadvantage. That makes sense.

This is only my opinion, but put a football helmet, does that mean ur not gonna get a concussion when you and somebody else collide. Less disadvantage, more safety oriented

[Winfang]

Very interesting, thank you for posting this.

[Thomas MacFinn]

Head shots. If a guy has a helmet, why can't you hit him in the head? Oh wait- I just figured it out, that would cause somebody who is better armoured to be fighting at a distinct disadvantage. That makes sense.

This is only my opinion, but put a football helmet, does that mean ur not gonna get a concussion when you and somebody else collide. Less disadvantage, more safety oriented

Also, as compared to SCA helmets, Belegarth helmets have very few construction guidelines. No required padding, no minimum coverage, not even a chinstrap is required.

[Pierce]

Head shots. If a guy has a helmet, why can't you hit him in the head? Oh wait- I just figured it out, that would cause somebody who is better armoured to be fighting at a distinct disadvantage. That makes sense.

This is only my opinion, but put a football helmet, does that mean ur not gonna get a concussion when you and somebody else collide. Less disadvantage, more safety oriented

Also, as compared to SCA helmets, Belegarth helmets have very few construction guidelines. No required padding, no minimum coverage, not even a chinstrap is required.

No quite true, they still have to cover 2/3rds of the target area.

[Vitus]

The leather helmets I have seen are way too light to take blows delivered with historical force.

[Arrakis]

Sword and board combat at the higher end of the skill continuum, in my experience, results in very few simultaneous kills or even injuries.

I know I fight very defensively, at least. Check out some really good sword'n'board fights at one of our events and you'll see what I mean. I've gone whole melees without taking a wound though I may engage and wound or kill several enemies.

I also would ask where you watched Bel combat. Go to a major Realm practice and watch some real vets go at it.

Thanks for the comments and for taking an interest.

[Dabbanoth]

Elohssa next-to-never got hit by me and he killed me all the * time.

[Pierce]

The leather helmets I have seen are way too light to take blows delivered with historical force.

You need to come to utah and play with us then.

[Soo Ma Tai]

You must also keep in mind that we are NOT a historical simulation group, but rather a fantasy dark ages combat game. There are incredible discrepancies between both Belegarth as well as SCA combat when compared to real combat. Both groups have rules based around safety, Bel allows shield bashes and checks, grappling, etc that is not allowed in SCA. SCA allows for head attacks and more realistic weight of weapons. Neither one allows pommel strikes or hand to hand combat actions that would have been commonly used in real combat. It's like the difference between real street fights and karate tournament sparring, once you've introduced rules, you've done away with real combat.

[MagnusofDregoth]

I think the Belegarth system is a *perfect* system for practicing unarmoured combat where only street clothes (of whatever era) stand between you and getting CUT VERY BADLY.

That's a good point.

Do you think the timing system used in this game promotes stronger offense or stronger defense? Or is it a wash?

[Vitus]

My approach to SCA combat is different than 99% of those who do it. I do NOT pretend to kill anyone. I am doing deeds of arms with arms of peace for combat between friends (a' plaisance). I also train for combat in war with certain weapons- spear for example. This type of combat was called "a' Outrance" or, "to extremes."
By fighting with arms of peace using pre-arranged rules I am not pretending to do a medieval thing- I AM DOING IT. This is why I chose the 14th century as my time period. During the Viking Age you only fought to kill, not to win a bout of counted blows, to display prowess or to impress a gallery of ladies.
I have no interest in pretending to do anything. I train for real combat and I perform a type of medieval sport combat that is 100% documentable- combat a plaisance= for the pleasure of knightly violence. If I did boffer combat it would be to train for a type of combat where armour was not worn. In the period wooden swords were used to train for unarmoured combat, and they were used for sport combat as well.
Belegarth is an excellent platform for studing Dark Ages combat, if you assume that everyone is 100% unarmoured.

[Vitus]

"Do you think the timing system used in this game promotes stronger offense or stronger defense? Or is it a wash?"

It encourages very strong offense. As long as people hit edgewise Belegarth combat encourages excellent blade-path habits, even if the weapons are too light.

[bo1]

good to have you here vitus.

using belegarth to look at historical combat is like measureing from cleaveland to madison with a rectal thermometer, **** tool not used for what it shoudl be.( that is a indirect quote for someone here on the boards)

combat is about hurting, incapacitating, or killing your opponent. that is cool i guess if you are into that type of thing.

i fight against some of my most dearest friends, i feel terrible if they get injured, more so if i had a hand in their injury. so you see, to avoid injuries, lighter weapons padded are used. also the nose is easily broken, no head shots. helmets are expensive, as is armor, so we pad the weapon for saftey. we are not professional fighters, so we have to ha jobs, we make little money so go figure armor is at a premium.

it is just a game, a fun game with a bisc set of rules and some conventions about combat. so please read the book of war a few dozen times, it says alot there. i read it from time to time and always find a rule or 2 to remeber for next time.

the Basic important rules.

SAFTEY, we want to rteduce injuries and have fun
PLAYABILITY, combat is fast and should be simple to resolve
REALISM, if we can great, realism is not a priority.

if you apply these rule in this order the whole game makes more sence

coming from the sca, hit calabration in our sport is less. we take its that are partial blocks as long as they have a bit of sting to them.

our sport offers a speed that is very high. so the need for determining late htis is necessary. the convention is that if the swing is not started when you die then your swing is late. in fact i will call late any swing that is not at least half way to its target. that is just to be sure that i am honest and honorable.

we have a much younger base than sca, which is a blessing and a curse. we have youthful enthusiasm, but a few bad eggs from tim e to time.

have fun enjoy.

bo

[Big King Jimmy]

As long as people hit edgewise Belegarth combat encourages excellent blade-path habits, even if the weapons are too light.

What's your opinion of weapons with omnidirectional striking surfaces?

[MagnusofDregoth]

My approach to SCA combat is different than 99% of those who do it. I do NOT pretend to kill anyone. I am doing deeds of arms with arms of peace for combat between friends (a' plaisance). I also train for combat in war with certain weapons- spear for example. This type of combat was called "a' Outrance" or, "to extremes."
By fighting with arms of peace using pre-arranged rules I am not pretending to do a medieval thing- I AM DOING IT. This is why I chose the 14th century as my time period. During the Viking Age you only fought to kill, not to win a bout of counted blows, to display prowess or to impress a gallery of ladies.

That's exactly my attitude towards SCA, which is why I don't have a problem with all of the extra layers of rules and etiquette that are in place in that organization. It's a game, and so one should play it as such.

[Vitus]

>What's your opinion of weapons with omnidirectional striking surfaces?

You mean like a mace?

[Black Cat]

>What's your opinion of weapons with omnidirectional striking surfaces?

You mean like a mace?

Omnidirectional weapons = Mace, Club, Spiked club, Morning star, Flail, ect.

[Big King Jimmy]

Specifically our clubs. I only ask because you specified blade/edge in what I quoted.

[Sleeper]

lol

[Vitus]

What do I think of them? In what context? I'm not following you...

[Arrakis]

This is an excellent thread.


Vitus, I believe Jimmy is referring to weapons known colloquially as "speedbats", "speedsticks", "cheeseclubs", etc. Swords with no flats, essentially.

Personally, I feel that they do encourage non-realistic blade paths; I can't count the number of strange backhands and wraps I can throw with a club that I can't throw with a sword without a grip change.

[Dabbanoth]

Things that would emulate something like this:


There are alot of clubs and things like that in the game, along with flails, which you can strike with using any direction of the "blade" (i.e. No Blade Flats.)

[Big King Jimmy]

Well yah, but I didn't mean to say anything about flails, speed bats were definetly what I was thinking of.

A lot of belegarth combat uses more strikes from the wrist, it seems to me, than SCA. Amtgard from what I've seen takes it to the next level past us. While swords might use historical blade paths, clubs if you've seen them don't, from what I can tell I mean I'm no expert. But these are extremely effective weapons in our game.

[Vitus]

Weapons such as that are rarely seen in the hands of the warrior elite in the pictorial evidence from the era 600-1600 C.E. The most noteworthy exception is the Bayeaux tapestry, when both William the * and Bishop Odo are seen wielding what look like Louisville slugger baseball bats. This may have been to simply set them apart as leaders to be listened to- the scepter of command.

The mace was a knightly weapon.

I am primarily interested in armoured combat, and in my period flails were primarily associated with the lower classes of soldier.

[Judas]

wielding what look like Louisville slugger baseball bats.

Wouldn’t a mace or club have been much heavier than an edged weapon as it was used for its mass, crushing power? A Belegarth club essentially weighs the same as a Belegarth sword but has no specific striking edge, thus giving it more versatility without the disadvantage of being top-heavy.

[Vitus]

I have fought with steel swords before, and they are advantageous because they break, cut and stab. They are impact weapons against the armoured (your social equal), they cut the unarmoured to bits (most soldiers were lightly armoured) and if needs be, the point can be used to kill the heavily armoured foe.
Charney specifically states that thrusting was a "technique of war." If raw clubs were more advantageous than swords they would be pictured alot more in the illuminations and mentioned in the chronicles. The Godandag was the most dangerous type of armoured club out there. What it really looked like is still a matter of some dispute.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=12002

http://www.liebaart.org/goeden_e.htm

But the weapon you used had alot to do with saying who you were and how much you were paid. Specifically, clubs have been displayed in two ways, as symbols of command in the early middle ages and as the symbol of the town levies of the Low Countries.

[Sleeper]

Someone once told me you can only do "half draw" during a strike. Meaning, SCA fighters would only swing half as hard as possible, or start their swing at half the normal full swing. This true?

[tvetree]

Someone once told me you can only do "half draw" during a strike. Meaning, SCA fighters would only swing half as hard as possible, or start their swing at half the normal full swing. This true?

Sounds like a twisted version of an older two-handed weapon rule.

Because like Bel a two handed sword can hit hard enough to do cause real damage.

You should never see a baseball type swing though (if that is full force for you).
You learn better ways to deliver that kind of power very fast.

[Vitus]

I would say that full power strikes in SCA combat do occur based upon the understood safety of a particular situation, and the hardiness and experience of a particular opponent.
During some particular fights people are swinging for the fences, during most situations they are probably fighting at 80% full power.
At the Combat of Thirty at Pennsic people are so highly armoured that you can get your head absolutely knocked off. People are just not worried about injuries because everyone is wearing so much gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzyKdgmE ... re=related

[Thomas MacFinn]

wielding what look like Louisville slugger baseball bats.

Wouldn’t a mace or club have been much heavier than an edged weapon as it was used for its mass, crushing power? A Belegarth club essentially weighs the same as a Belegarth sword but has no specific striking edge, thus giving it more versatility without the disadvantage of being top-heavy.

Historically, maces were not very different, in overall weight, from a sword. It was just the distribution of that weight that differed. Grab a real sword and the balance point is a few inches from the quillions. Grab a framing hammer of the same weight and the balance point is a few inches below the head.

Many of the historical one-handed maces/picks that I have seen looked quite a bit like a 2 lb framing hammer or geologist's rock hammer with a longer and reinforced handle.

[Sleeper]

Dang, the helms look awesome. I can imagine how hard it is to fight SCA, Bel just seems free compared to the youtube vid. Love that noise, the clank of walking in full plate armour.

[Sleeper]

For Example... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR3i7YYkMQ4

[Sir Galin]

Most people in our game focus too much on offense, which does cause a lot of dual injuries.

However, the top end of the sport is at the top because they have taken the time to advance their defence. Most good fighters also don't just swing away. They wait for a good opening and use the speed of our lighter weapons to get in and out without getting hit.

While not thrown with SCA levels of force we do still require a middling level of force on our shots. I've fought a VERY small amount of SCA and the higher hit level is what appeals to me the most. There are foam sports without our "sufficient force" rule that are much faster, like amtgard. Due to the speed of the game their fighters probably have the best timing of any game I've seen.

I'd have to say Belegarth's strength is it is very middle of the road. We are fast while still very physical.