Javelin & Shield effectiveness

[Kirethorn]

I've been training with spear and shield techniques for a while (before the movie '300' came out), though not with foam weapons, and I am wondering how this style works using foam shields and weapons in belegarth.

I'll basically be using the javelin as a single handed glaive that can be thrown (with the main priority being thrusting, though I do want to know how a javelin does in swung attacks). The javelin used is most likely going to be from edhellen.

[Dane]

So to answer your question as to how a javelin does when swung...it doesn't, except for upsetting your opponent as you strike him or her with haft padding. Since it's a thrusting weapon/thrown projectile, swung strikes with a javelin inflict no damage on your target.

If you're using a javelin as your primary weapon along with a shield, you're going to be pretty ineffective and have a hard time defeating most weapon styles. Since your opponent can focus on your javelin as the only threat, your opponent can easily bat it aside and close with you since the nature of the javelin makes it terrible for pointblank use. Once he's moved inside your range, he'll be able to assault you with near impunity.

[Davit]

The closest thing you are going to get to what you want is going to be to get a blue weapon (type one) with a green tip (type 3) (whatever you feel comfortable wielding like a spear) and some jav's to throw at people before they close in on you. I sympathize with you though, A long time ago (8 years or so) I wanted to make a fighting style based on the Aiel from the Wheel of time series, never got around to it though....

[Arrakis]

I came up with a design for a single-handed blue-green spear for use in the manner you describe. I can post it somewhere for you, if you like.

But yeah, carry a couple javs to throw before combat is joined and carry such a blue-green spear for your main weapon and you should be ok. Just remember to use double layer of bluefoam haft padding for the first 8-12 inches below the head, so if you haft someone it won't hurt significantly.

[Forkbeard]

Hey that's cool. I did the Aiel thing for a couple years at a LARP I used to frequent. Fun character. Cool weapons and stuff.
If I wanted to do the spear/sheild thing in Bel, I would get a few regular(3-4ft) jav's for general harrasment of the enemy. You should carry these in some kind of back quiver. Also, I would make a couple max length jav's(7ft). This would make them good for holding people back a ways and you could still throw them. I say make a couple, because if you make 7 foot long jav's, expect one to always fail and have a back up.
I would also carry a short sword, as almost every person who ever fought with spear/shield carries a side arm of some kind. I recomend having a very fast draw sheath or some equivalent so you can get rid of the spear and get out your sidearm quickly.
And the biggest thing about this fighting style is support. You can't be a loner if you want to do this. You need a couple freinds who are willing to work on learning to work together. Spear/shield is a phalanx style and needs shield men on either side to make it effective.
FB

[Kirethorn]

Arrakis, your weapon sounds ideal, if you could post in the foamsmithing thread that would be great (PM it if your are secretive about the design, don't know why you would be though).

If I carry any javelins it'll be just one, I want to close with the enemy and javelins aren't essential to the strategy we have developed thusfar.

I too have read the wheel of time, and Aiel are very cool, but I didn't get the idea from them either.

I will be carrying a sword as a secondary weapon, but my problem is figuring out how to sheath it as it isn't an actual sword.

I will probably be fighting in a shieldwall or on its right flank, so their will be lots of support nearby.

Thanks for your posts!

[Arrakis]

There ya go. The one on the left is Red (so, basically a glaive), the one on the right is blue. The core is drawn as half inch fiber (round in the right example, square in the left).

Feel free to modify as you see fit.

[Forkbeard]

So... you've either designed a club with a stabbing end?
I agree that it's an alright weapon to use, if you're into clubs, but it ain't a spear.
What is the purpose of the little knobbies you have on the striking surface?
FB

[Arrakis]

Not round, blade shaped. It's a short stabbing sword blade on a stick with haft padding. It's designed that way so it'll look spear head-ish and so you can only slash with the "blade edge" of the head. Like, it's a spear with a long, flat head that you can use to slash at opponents with. So, if you're fighting someone tanked out you can cut them up one handed (one handed thrusts still doing nothing to armor).

The little flanges are just for aesthetics; so they look more like spear heads, ya know? I really think the blue design (~42-46") is the more reasonable of the two designs.

[Kirethorn]

Good job on the design, but I was wondering what the bumps were too. And, no offence, but they make it look more like a missle than a spear. If you are interested in looks you are probably best off calling it a straight bladed guan dao or naginata. What density is the foam?

[Arrakis]

2#.

Like I said, I was going for a Long-blade Lobed Spear look. If the cosmetic flanges bug you, build the weapon without them or do more extensive foamsculpting. It's up to you, you know. I just felt they added some cosmetic difference between this and a miniglaive and also would aid the wielder in knowing where his striking surface stopped and his haft padding began.

Actually, if you increase the size and projection of the lobes, you get a (hammer-style) pollaxe. Lol.

[Forkbeard]

Alright, I see where you're coming from now.
Good idea. And I like you're drawings.
If you have a round handle on the short one, you could use the omega clip I designed to hold to flail I carry as a backup with my glaive. It's made of a peice of 2" x 6" x 1/4" thick ABS plastic molded in an omega shape around the weapon handle. Then you drill a couple holes in it and mount it to a ral wide leather belt, like a kidney belt. I tried a thiner belt this year at CHoas and it idn't work as good, so stick to a real wide, thick belt. Or you could moun it to your armor.
Anyway, the clip work by holding the weapon handle in the hoop part of the omega. when you yank on it it pops right out through the slot. Simple as pie and pretty reliable if you get the shape just right.
When people rush me with my glaive I can have the flail out, kill them and have it put away before they even see it. I've been asked a few time "what did you just hit me with?" more than a few times.
FB

[Arrakis]

Forkbeard: That is brilliant. That's like molded kydex holster brilliant. Ho-ly crap.

I gotsta get me one-a them. *goes to see if he has anything that'd work for that*

[Jeggrim]

Fork, you should make a dozen or so of your clips before Sam hain and sell those babies for a reasonable price...maybe 10-12 bux? I know a lot of peeps would be all over them like fuzzy **** on Velcro!

--Jegg

[Dane]

The clip sounds awesome. It doesn't fail for protrusion?

[Arrakis]

If it's not armor and not on a weapon, it's only subject to discretionary checking.

[Kirethorn]

That is an excellent idea forkbeard. I'll try to design something similar over here.
As for the weapon design, i've decided (for now) to go with the following, bare in mind that i have never even seen a foam weapon in real life..
Core: 6' x 0.5"
Head: 12" (on core), the rest is whatever it turns out to be.
Incidental Padding: 12" do I need more?
Pommel: large to counter balance head.

Arrakis, could i start a new thread in foam smithing so we can get down to the fine details of what it'll take to build this thing?

[Davit]

When building something, first look at what's already been built, then throw in some ideas of your own, and then if you still have questions ask away. And yes, no one will fault you in the least for throwing up a thread in the foamsmithing forum if you follow those simple directions, it's what the foamsmithing forum is for. If it's your first project, I would say start with something smaller and build up to what you want.

[Thestlring]

Hello, and sorry for the necro post as a first post, but the subject matter is right at the heart of what I am working on.
I am new, and by that I mean I have not made my first event, practice or even met anyone else with this interest, but am not new to boffer weapons, having played in the SCA (Kingdom of Calontir, Shire of the Spinning Winds, or Manhattan Kansas to normal folks) for several years and using/making them for practice and "light" games.
So with that said, what I am working on is an Aiel persona, from the Wheel of Time book series, authored by Robert Jordan. I chose this because I like the fighting style concept of a short spear and buckler combination, seeing a lot of potential in it, and combined with either a short bow or javelins, I think it would make a good force multiplier for any side using it. I am basing the fighting style a bit more on the Zulu use of the ikthwal/assegai, and the design follows suit. Overall length is to be half or a little more then half of the users height (so 3' for myself), combining the construction principles of a short sword, javelin and spear. I am making the first two as I type this, using graphite golf club shafts as the core and following the javelin building steps for the shaft, then applying sword padding to the first 18" of it and spear tip build for the tip. I do plan on putting a pommel on it, which will help with range of attack, and I also plan on doing a rope wrap for the handle to help with grip and control.
If these are oked for throwing, then I will make several of them, if they are not, then I will make some javelins as my projectiles and carry them between my arm and my buckler. The buckler is being made similar to a punching shield, but with a rigid backing that I can attach the straps to. I am also thinking about making some form of attachment clips for it, so I can make a longer carry strap that I can then sling the buckler across my back for carrying when having to move more/fight less.
To assist with range, I am looking at making a PVC bow for now, then eventually getting a fiberglass kids bow for continued use, but only if those are ok for whatever group I can get into.
For close in, a long knife will be in my belt as well, just in case.
What do you guys think? Does this sound like it would work for Belegarth?

[Thomas MacFinn]

1.4.7. Javelins must conform to all of the following:
1.4.7.1. Must also pass as a Class 3 Weapon.
1.4.7.2. The maximum weight is twenty-four (24) ounces.
1.4.7.3. The minimum length is four (4) feet.
1.4.7.4. The maximum length is seven (7) feet.
1.4.7.5. Padded along the entire length.
1.4.7.6. Must flex less than 90°. This is an exception to Appendix A, 1.3.5.
1.4.7.7. Must have a yellow cover.

Check out http://belegarth.com/rules.php
It makes informative reading.

[Arrakis]

Welcome to Bel!

The only legal javelins have to conform to what Thomas posted above, so three-foot long, bladed javelins are right out.


But! You can certainly make a pile of regular 4'1" javelins to carry in your shield hand (I could probably only handle two with a centergrip shield, more with a strap) and a Class 1&3 (Slashing and Stabbing) "shortspear" to fight with as your primary melee weapon. I've thought about a similar weapon before, I've just never gotten around to building it. I had plans somewhere....

Ah! Here: Link

But, yes. The character idea sounds fine. Just make sure your weapons and shields pass by the Book of War! If you need further advice on actually making this stuff, post new threads in the Foamsmithing forum and we'll be glad to help you out!

[Thestlring]

Thank you Thomas and Arrakis, I was thinking that it might tunr into a short spear plus javelins kind of a thing, especially when I read the length limitations, so I will make my primary short spear to start with and get some material together to build the javelins next.
I have a design that I have been working on for it, and am at the "gathering padding" stage, but a picture of it is like this;

I am still combining the spear and sword building techniques, but will leave the javelins to the javelins, and make them as a seperate item to carry.
Our armsmen for the Shire I was in for the SCA all carried 2-3 javelins, they were kind of our "trademark" weapons, so I am pretty familiar in their use for SCA, need to make sure it is the same for Bell.

[Arrakis]

If Calontir uses standard thrust-n-throw javs, then, yeah, pretty much. Thrown, the weapon needs to travel the full length of the weapon to score a hit (so throw the jav from farther than one jav-length away from the target; easier with short javs like you're making), thrust, just hit 'em with it.

Remember: No face or head shots when thrust, head and face shots OK when thrown. Half-throw under 20 feet (e.g., if you're close to someone, don't crank the javelin at their nose).

[Thestlring]

I don't remember being able to thrust with them, but will pay close attention to the head shots; all fun and games until someone gets a bloody nose.

[Derian]

Bot? I can't tell.

[Skydd]

I don't think so Derian. It seems too well thought out, and there isn't a link anywhere in that post.

[Black Cat]

There's links to -http://www.keywordspy.com- in its signature.