What's wrong with Quarterstaffs?

[Kirethorn]

Judging from the general consensus of all the posts I've read since joining this forum I've come to the conclusion that the quarterstaff is regarded as the most useless weapon in belegarth (don't ask for quotes). Why is that?
I've taken into account the massive amount of padding required on each end of the weapon, but I still can't see a down side. It seems like the perfect beginners weapon.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I know this my not sound all that viable to you, but I have had a staff in my realm, and i will tell you this. All I have to do is push my shield into your staff and it becomes nearly useless while I wail on you with my blue sword. Now a real staff you can move your hands around on to change your range of attack, but the way these must be built you are restricted to a range of a short sword. It's not that the staff is not an effective weapon. It's just not effective in our game.

[Derian]

Primarily because it's a two handed weapon that doesn't deal red damage.

You also don't have as much offensive power as florentine, and almost no defensive abilities.

They sacrifice too much for too little benefit.

Edit: Also, they get a bad rap because a ton of new people always want to build them and think they'll be able to rule the field with them.

[Arrakis]

What Derian said.

You can do some very interesting things with a staff, especially if you're an aggressive, body-forward fighter (shield kicks and body checks are essential to proper quarterstaff form!), but staff is much harder to learn than sword and board and much less effective in general for quite a long period of time before you really get decent.

I should make myself another staff soon to practice with up here...

[Slagar]

What Derian said again.

Basically, it's like picking up a red sword, and then never breaking shields. You can only block for so long, you can't get around shields, you can't block arrows, and it takes very little skill to pin it to your chest and bludgeon you.

That being said, I have seen some people pick them up and make them work, to a point. Simply put, if you're good enough, you can walk the field no matter what you're holding. I've seen people walk around single blue, and put down fighters using whatever (coughPetertheQuickcough). It's just that none of those guys (you know who you are) has ever decided to apply that to staff, and all the beginners who try it out get beat on until they switch over to sword and shield or florentine. Someday I'm going to glue one into Soth's hands, and make him show me how to use it right.

[Forkbeard]

I have to disagree with Slagar and Arakis. Staff's are totally useless in Bel no matter how skilled you are. For the reasons Soo and Derian mentioned. Limited attack range and limmited ways to hold it.
In real life, where you can hit people i the face, it's a little different. If those people are also armed with crappy stick weapons and not wearinf helmets(like other farmers), your fammer *(who else uses staffs?) can **** rule.
But when you're fighting people in helmets with sheilds, staff will nearly always loose. You need to either get the drop on the other guy or cheat to win.
You shoudl make ten of them, Aussie, for you're backyard nonsense.
FB

[Titan G]

also a great number of quarterstaff/bo staff combat forms are heavy on head strikes


bele= no head shots

bug crippler

and alot of the hate you see comes from what derian said about new people. most of the time we see people interested in staves there A) very new B) vastly over blown in their estimation of their own abilities

[Big King Jimmy]

The normal method someone attacks with a quarter staff would be to hold both hands in front of them and push one forward. You get about a 30 degree angle at the point of contact with a shield.

This means that a shield that is usually 2" thick is now 4" wider due to your angle of strike.

Now, a blue sword can get behind a shield, it's called a wrap shot.

If you could wrap with a staff, it would be awesome, instead they are large, akward and clumsy.

[Jeggrim]

Judging from the general consensus of all the posts I've read since joining this forum I've come to the conclusion that the quarterstaff is regarded as the most useless weapon in belegarth (don't ask for quotes). Why is that?
I've taken into account the massive amount of padding required on each end of the weapon, but I still can't see a down side. It seems like the perfect beginners weapon.

God dammit you are the **** king of the noobs! Almost every thing you have posted thus far on the boards of a game YOU DON'T PLAY is asinine! Seriously, why in the hell are you still posting here? You don't **** play. You pretty much said you'd never play. In fact, all you've done is * about our game (i.e. our weapons flex too much, they're too light, its expensive, not hardcore, armors too restrictive, staffs rule) I mean really GTFO!

Oh and I bolded that part for you so you can almost answer your own question... You know why you don't see a downside? YOU DONT **** PLAY! Its hard to "see" the downside when you've NEVER SEE US FIGHT. Stop. Please. Just **** stop.

--Jegg

[Black Cat]

There is a reason we don't fight with quarterstaves as weapons and they rarely, if ever, get built by veteran fighters.

Shields.

Shields are a staple of our game. The only thing in Belegarth more common than a shield is a blue sword.


Do you know how hard it is to get a large weapon around a shield, especially when you have to grip said weapon in the center and cannot deal red hits with it?

On the "you cannot wrap-shot with a q-staff" note, I can actually think of a way to wrap-shot around someone's shield with a quarterstaff, but the move I have in mind will leave your back and right side wide open and facing your opponent, as well as leave you highly vulnerable to getting your weapon pinned. Overall, quarterstaves are novelty weapons that are quite useless against any competent sword-and-boarder, no matter how skilled you are. I have yet to see any battles in-person or in footage that prove otherwise.

[Aslaug]

This came up a while ago and someone mentioned having the handle off center. Put only the minimum striking surface on one end, then the handle, then a substantially larger striking surface on the other side-. It would be held more like a spear or glaive, but still have the ability to do a pommel side strike when necessary.

[Roland Demox]

Judging from the general consensus of all the posts I've read since joining this forum I've come to the conclusion that the quarterstaff is regarded as the most useless weapon in belegarth (don't ask for quotes). Why is that?
I've taken into account the massive amount of padding required on each end of the weapon, but I still can't see a down side. It seems like the perfect beginners weapon.

God dammit you are the **** king of the noobs! Almost every thing you have posted thus far on the boards of a game YOU DON'T PLAY is asinine! Seriously, why in the hell are you still posting here? You don't **** play. You pretty much said you'd never play. In fact, all you've done is * about our game (i.e. our weapons flex too much, they're too light, its expensive, not hardcore, armors too restrictive, staffs rule) I mean really GTFO!

Oh and I bolded that part for you so you can almost answer your own question... You know why you don't see a downside? YOU DONT **** PLAY! Its hard to "see" the downside when you've NEVER SEE US FIGHT. Stop. Please. Just **** stop.

--Jegg

Easy Jeggrim, calm down its ok, go do some Tai Chi....oom fraba, oom fraba

[Physic]

God dammit you are the **** king of the noobs! Almost every thing you have posted thus far on the boards of a game YOU DON'T PLAY is asinine! Seriously, why in the hell are you still posting here? You don't **** play. You pretty much said you'd never play. In fact, all you've done is * about our game (i.e. our weapons flex too much, they're too light, its expensive, not hardcore, armors too restrictive, staffs rule) I mean really GTFO!

Oh and I bolded that part for you so you can almost answer your own question... You know why you don't see a downside? YOU DONT **** PLAY! Its hard to "see" the downside when you've NEVER SEE US FIGHT. Stop. Please. Just **** stop.

--Jegg

One of the main reasons I hate the internet is that I cant tell you to your face how much of a douche bag you are. GROW UP. There is never any reason to act like this toward any person on these boards.

Who cares if this guy doesnt want to play our game. How the hell do you think Belegarth got started in the first place. Some dork decided one day to he wanted to hit people with foam weapons. If this guy listened to butt plugs like you none of the games in existence would be around.

You are showing complete disrespect toward our game to someone that is asking a simple question. I would take a noob that is willing to try there own thing any day of the week over someone like you.

Belegarth is based on honor and respect. Take what you have learned on the field and apply it to how you treat visitors on this forum.

[Winfang]

[Jeggrim]

Listen, I'm not trying to be a *. I love new people. We were all new once, and all had the same dumb questions, and did the same dumb mistakes. This guy is different. I'll leave it at that.

To all the rest of you.

I apologize for my reaction. It makes us all look bad. In my head I was being stern, in reality I was being a HUGE jerk. I am seriously sorry. You are all my family, and I mean that. I love you all, and I understand why that post may have offended some of you.

Thank you for pointing out my own failing. I will work to repair them.

And Kirethron: If you are TRULY interested in playing Belegarth now, and you're over your thinking of it being not hardcore enough, than go for it. I'd even support you and give your real advice.

Once again, Jeggrim is da sorry orc.

--Jegg

[Forkbeard]

OOO.
You is da sorry Orc.
FB

[Kirethorn]

I hear you.

That's pretty much answered my question about why a quarterstaff is so bad in belegarth. Sorry for sparking off another round of Belegarth post boxing (Bele-boxing?). Thanks all that posted.

Kirethorn

[Kageshiro]

Not to take away from the fun that everyone seems to be having, but just wanted to add my 2 cts. on quarterstaves. . .

They primarily don't work because of the shield / range ideas mentioned earlier. Another reason they don't work is that, with any weapon that is held with two hands fairly far apart, is that strikes require much more body movement, particularly in the shoulders, than does a weapon that is held with one hand (or two hands together). This body movement makes defence a ton more difficult.

----------

Sir Kage

[Mouken]

Rifter is pretty good with the quarter staff, but when I tried it out I didn't like it because of the limited gripping area. I usually don't have problems with pole arm weapons due to my gangletardness, but pole weapons can tire my shoulders what good some days.

[Sleeper]

After reading alot about q-staffs and asking people who know them, I've come to this conclusion (this has been said this before), a real war Q-staff would do more damage to shields and armour than even the largest two handed swords, aka as redswords. Why? Because some had solid metal clubs fitted at one or both ends of a q-staff, making even 1600 century plate armour vunerable to damage from said staff. Though not all q-staffs had this, they did exist, which is why, IMHO, the q-staff should be upgraded and allowed shield breaking hits. This will never happen but still.

[Arrakis]

Sleeper, what's up!?!?! How's the Dur-D Sout?


Also, where'd you get this info about metal quarterstaves? Most period quarterstaves I know of were like 9 feet long. A 1" mild steel staff that long would weigh 25#!

I've heard of shoeing your staff in metal, to better crack skulls (the staff was, if I recall my George Silver correctly, primarily a civilian implement, especially a defensive weapon). Silver did regard the quarterstaff as superior to the longstaff and even the sword as a civilian defense implement, but I don't believe he wrote as to its effectiveness in warfare.

That said, the Goedendag is * near a quarterstaff with a long metal spike on one end and was apparently used en masse by infantry to unhorse knights and gendarmes and such, rattle them around good an' hard inside their armor, and then stab them to death. Truthfully, I'd probably represent that by making a 4'6" barrel mace, though.

[Forkbeard]

Yeah, sleeper, that's crap. I don't know where you heard it, but it's bs.
Quarterstaff is a farmer weapon. The are only serious weapons when either
A)everyone is equally(poorly) armed.
B)You're fighting someone whos retarded.
FB

[Sleeper]

FB, be quite son. Just read up on 'em. And its not the entire shaft that's metal, just the ends of the qstaff that were capped with metal. I could provide some links if you wish. Arrakis, Dur D misses ya, you should come back and show us your mad skillz again, lol. Seriously though, I think I can thwart your stabbing tips!

[Forkbeard]

Be careful who you call son, son.
The end cap used on a staff would not hurt anyone in plate armor or heavy leather. It probly wouldn't hurt anyone in chain who was wearing it properly padded. It would crack the skull of anyone not wearing a helmet.
A bit of wood with a metalcap is NOTHING like a two handed sword.
Your thinking here is flawed, though I can see where your getting the idea.
Your just wrong. Don't spread bad information just because it sounds good to you.
FB

[Kirethorn]

This mace ended staff sounds like a double-mace weapon that I saw being used on the game neverwinter nights. If this is the same weapon, grow up and don't try to pass fantasy off as fact. If it isn't, then it would have been very difficult to wield (heavy weights on either end), would suffer the problems listed above (because it's got hitting implements taking up the staff), would be almost impossible to block with, would probably be prone to breaking (wooden shaft, heavy mace heads) and wouldn't be able to hit with the force of a swung single handed bludgeoning weapon, which is what was relied on to crack the armour. Have you ever tried using a barbell as a weapon? That would be similar.

[Jeggrim]

Yeah, sleeper, that's crap. I don't know where you heard it, but it's bs.
Quarterstaff is a farmer weapon. The are only serious weapons when either
A)everyone is equally(poorly) armed.
B)You're fighting someone whos retarded.
FB

AhhhhHahahahaha

And ya, a stick with a metal collar on both ends does not =a two handed sword or mass weapon. Its a **** stick.

Just like SCA swords are sticks. They don't destroy armor or shields. A metal nub ain't gonna change that. At the end of the day, a stick is a stick, and a two handed sword is gonna **** **** up.

--Jegg

How's that orc logic for ya
Oh and why can't I have a goblin smiley with a halo, winking and sticking its tongue out? That would save a lot of space. Ha!

[Sleeper]

*sigh* look em up. Ofcourse the quarterstaff fitted with these metal caps going against plate armour is speculation, however, it was stated that all swords were at more risk of breaking than the armour. They also said that axe's and maces filled that position better.

[Kirethorn]

*sigh* look em up. Ofcourse the quarterstaff fitted with these metal caps going against plate armour is speculation, however, it was stated that all swords were at more risk of breaking than the armour. They also said that axe's and maces filled that position better.

Was this what you had in mind? (compliments of google pics)

A neverwinter nights dire mace.

Or this?


Typed in mace ended staff and this came up.

What google failed to find was a real-life version of your weapon. Amd who is this famous "they"? If you are only going off one site (not a very good one from the sound of it) then you are...well...I'll leave that to others better at it (Forkbeard, Jeggrim).

[Arrakis]

From English Master of Defense George Silver's Paradoxes of Defence (published in 1599):

Yet understand, that in battles, and where variety of weapons are, among multitudes of men and horses, the sword and target, the two handed sword, battle axe, the black bill, and halberd, are better weapons, and more dangerous in their offense and forces, than is the sword and buckler, short staff, long staff, or forest bill. The sword and target leads upon shot, and in troops defends thrusts and blows given by battle axe, halberds, black bill, or two handed swords, far better than can the sword and buckler.

The morris pike defends the battle from both horse and man, much better than can the short staff, long staff, or forest bill. Again the battle axe, the halberd, the black bill, the two handed sword, and sword & target, among armed men and troops, by reason of their weights, shortness, and great force, do much more offend the enemy, & are then much better weapons, than is the short staff, the long staff, or the forest bill.

Emphasis mine.

And this is from a man who follows this up with

Now for the vantage of the short staff against the sword and buckler, sword & target, two handed sword, single sword, sword and dagger, or rapier and poniard, there is no great question to be in any of these weapons. Whensoever any blow or thrust shall be strongly made with the staff, they are ever in false place, in the carriage of the wards, for if at any of these six weapons he carries his ward high & strong for his head, as of necessity he must carry it very high, otherwise it will be too weak to defend a blow being strongly made at the head, then will his space be too wide, in due time to break the thrust from his body. Again, if he carries his ward lower, thereby to be in equal space for readiness to break both blow & thrust, then in that place his ward is too low, and too weak to defend the blow of the staff: for the blow being strongly made at the head upon that ward, will beat down the ward and his head together, and put him in great danger of his life.

Note the emphasis on the head as an essential target, note that in this case he is speaking only of single duels and two-on-one fights, and note also that he mentions only the two most common civilian shields from that period of history, the buckler (8-14" round "punch-style" shield made of dished metal) and the target (similarly sized, circa 10-16", square or trapezoidal and often wavy in profile). That certainly doesn't include 3x3.5' or bigger lightweight punch tower shields.


The short staff (our legal quarterstaff is on too short, truthfully; Silver recommends 8-9 feet) is not a good fit for our system of combat, there being no blows to the head in our system and our sport being dominated by large, quick shields. Too, the conditions of our combat (large battles) is specifically listed as being not ideal conditions for the use of the staff. It may still be possible to develop a workable style of Bel staff for single or low-number combat, though, but I caution that it will not be an easy (or perhaps even possible!) row to hoe.

A link for your perusal to a full transcription of the complete text of Silver's Paradoxes.

[Arrakis]

Also, Sleeper, keep the kids showing up during winter; I'll be back in town a couple of Sundays during December and/or January (hella long winter break up here in the Northeast!) and you better know I'll be on the field!

[Kirethorn]

To Sleeper,
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[Dabbanoth]

Silly Foreigners.