Newbish question

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Newbish question

Postby Kirethorn » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:56 pm

I'm hoping that this doesn't turn into bele-boxing again. A lot of people I see fighting in SCA and Belegarth (via pics, youtube) have their weapon raised behind their head, as if they are resting it on their shoulder or scratching an itch. These are the only places I have seen it done. Why do they do this?
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Big King Jimmy » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:11 pm

It means their dead. It's so we don't have to lay on the ground in the sun.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Kirethorn » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:17 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:It means their dead. It's so we don't have to lay on the ground in the sun.


Not saying you're wrong, just that it doesn't match where i'm coming from.

The people I saw were either demonstrating techniques or fighting each other in a duel. I also saw a diagrams of fighters (it might have been for formations) that had each stick figure with shield in front and sword behind the head. It appeared to be the "ready" stance for them all.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby flyinggobbo » Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:38 pm

Holding your sword pummel first allows you to do a quick overhand strike and "conceals" where the tip of your sword is pointing. http://scamelee.freeservers.com/oldcastle_1.html explains it in chapter 3 and 4. The article go's into detail of the old castle style. Hope that helps.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Big King Jimmy » Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:45 pm

If a fighter is holding his sword with the pommel on the edge of this right shoulder (or near) and the blade held kind of over their head, it's a stance. Place the sword there to block shots to that shoulder. If the sword is held vertically, it opens up a "slot" which someone can drop a shot into.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Winfang » Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:53 pm

Post a picture or the video you're referring to. That would make it easier to explain it.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Kirethorn » Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:55 pm

All right, I'm pretty sure flyinggobbo explained it. Don't think I'll ever pick it up though.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Arrakis » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:08 pm

Oldcastle is pretty exaggerated, but resting your sword on your shoulder is just easier than using energy to hold it up off of your shoulder if you're going to be in "*" position instead of pyramid guard.

Try it; you might like it.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Kirethorn » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:19 pm

Arrakis wrote:Oldcastle is pretty exaggerated, but resting your sword on your shoulder is just easier than using energy to hold it up off of your shoulder if you're going to be in "*" position instead of pyramid guard.


I don't really understand the bolded part. I assume the pyramid guard is holding your weapon in front of your torso at a diagonal angle opposite to your shield. If "*" refers to the block mentioned by big jimmy I still don't fully get it, you can't lay weapons against your body to block (last time I checked).

Could you clarify please?
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Aslaug » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:23 pm

Kirethorn wrote:
Arrakis wrote:Oldcastle is pretty exaggerated, but resting your sword on your shoulder is just easier than using energy to hold it up off of your shoulder if you're going to be in "*" position instead of pyramid guard.


I don't really understand the bolded part. I assume the pyramid guard is holding your weapon in front of your torso at a diagonal angle opposite to your shield. If "*" refers to the block mentioned by big jimmy I still don't fully get it, you can't lay weapons against your body to block (last time I checked).

Could you clarify please?


Uh, I think the star was your word filter blocking the word c.ocked
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Kirethorn » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:26 pm

I still think flyinggobbo got it. Your swords only weigh like 650 grams.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Arrakis » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:58 pm

Kirethorn, the style was developed in the SCA, where I fight with a 3# 36" weapon. It's MUCH nicer to let the blade rest on your shoulder when you're not striking or returning or blocking, especially if you're going to be fighting for a while (like the 100-minute long res battle at the Hundred Minutes War event).

Otherwise, yes, it's a good position: Your sword is coc ked back so that you are ready to throw a shot with no interceding movement. You aren't wasting energy. You prevent your opponent from predicting your shot. The position encourages good, hip-based swing.

So, yeah.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Big King Jimmy » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:46 am

Or thousands of fighters from various sports just don't know what they're talking about, could be that too right?
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Forkbeard » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:30 pm

Since you're in the southern hemisphere, you should do it backwards for the best results.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby bo1 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:03 pm

priceless.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Cib » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:02 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:Or thousands of fighters from various sports just don't know what they're talking about, could be that too right?


Very likely the case, we are not the only sport that gets new fighters who don't know what all they are doing.

Depending the stance you are speaking of, it might be simply subconscious reenacting of the classic If it is the cool movie stance you see all the time.

If it is a two handed sword, it might actually be a basic broad swards stance. One that I learned a few months back for a trainer... and Italian one I think? One that I actually have never seen in any of the you-tube bel video my self though.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Arrakis » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:03 pm

Woah. Cib. Redact everything you just wrote and reread the thread.

And it's not a broadsword technique you're referring to; it's a longsword technique, taught almost certainly by Fiore or Liechtenauer. The broadsword did not come into full bloom as a term and weapon until the 1800s.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:18 am

Trust me Cib, it's not a movie pose. It's your basic defensive stance.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Kirethorn » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:05 am

I wouldn't have asked if it was just a movie pose. Saving energy during battles that have lasted hours already I can understand. Deception I can understand. But isn't it putting all your attacking eggs into one basket? i.e limiting your strike possibilites? And for a defensive stance isn't it forcing you to rely soley(sp?) on your shield?

I tested it out in my backyard. It does encourage a strong swing, but only to their left side, you are unable to thrust or parry. Your shield does have more room to manouvre, but it's only good against someone who can attack slower than you can block and can't feint if their life depended on it.

With a pyramid stance you must be careful not to tangle yourself up, and your swings aren't as powerful as they are coming from the shoulder-rest stance. But you have far more options for attack and defense available to you.

I may just be biased because my country dosn't play baseball as much as yours does, or build myths around lumberjacks.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:31 am

Well, first of all, none of us know if your stance is correct.

Also, Arrakis is pointing things out from an SCA perspective. In the SCA, your weapons weigh 3 lbs, in Belegarth, maybe around a lbs, probably 12 oz. In belegarth, in either offensive or defensive stance, you sword is not resting on your shoulder, but is held.... well.. hrm... it's hard to explain....

Lets try this:

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I know my drawing is bad, but hope it helps.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Kirethorn » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:12 am

None of those stances are what I was reffering to in my original post. I'm not saying you thought they were, just leaving no room for misunderstanding. The stances you have displayed I use and have no issues with.

My original question was whether or not the position I described was an actual stance, and what is it used for. That has been answered. I'm now wondering what is so special about that stance, because if so many people use it so frequently in lieu of the above stances, then I must be missing something.

To describe the stance again.
1. Grab your weapon with both hands.
2. Set your feet as per a normal defensive stance.
3. Move your weapon behind your head as if it is a baseball bat and you are ready to strike the ball.
4. Remove your off-hand from your weapon (without moving the weapon), and hold a shield in front of you.
From the front it should look like you've skewered yourself through the neck. This is what I attempted to describe in my original post, sorry for any confusion that may have occured.


So far the benefits are:
1. A stronger swing to thy opponents left side.
2. It is more difficult to predict the path of the swing.
3. It takes the weight off your sword-arm.

Considering the same arguments from my previous post. I fail to see why this stance is used so widely instead of the stances shown by Big Jimmy above.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Juicer » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:55 am

I know the stance, you're talking about. I perform that stance from time to time, mainly as an intimidation of a power wrap, or as a very exagerated fake. Now I generally have a lot more reach than most people, being that I'm 6'6" (around 2 m) tall, so I'm not too worried about my sword arm getting hit in this position. It's not a well-rounded stance, but it does have its advantages. You can do a torso fake and snap a cross-shot just over your head, you can also step in to really deliver a powerful wrap shot that'll push shields out of the way with the momentum. You can also step in faking the wrap and simply twist your torso back for a tricky little swordarm shot that's relatively safe.

Really it comes down do personal abilty and ingenuity for whether or not the stance works for you.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Slagar » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:41 am

Hey Kirethorn, thought I'd throw my .02 in. I've done several hour-and-a-half regen battles, superfriends style. Me and nine buddies against 80-90 non-fighters (i.e. people holding boffers for the first time). After half an hour, this is the stance we used. Basically, you're right, this stance is useless unless it's:

1) The only way you can hold the sword up.
2) Being used to help generate power, saving your muscles the need to.
3) Being used against massively under par fighters.

You'd be surprised how often that is the case, depending on the situation you're in. I can't really say why so many Bel fighters would use it, since it really isn't effective in our sport, with the exception of maybe cleaning house at the end of a long battle at Rag. Having never fought SCA, can't help you there either. But I know I've used it, for exactly what you've said it's good for. And it is very good for that. If this still doesn't cut it for you, may I suggest posting a couple links to the videos which feature this stance, to help clarify?
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Arrakis » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:57 am

Swordside shots from that posture are undertaken by reversing the twist of your hips halfway through your shot. You start a shot with your hips, then as your sword comes out, come up higher than normal, like instead of going for a straight snap into their shield side you're going for some sort of head-chop, and then as soon as your elbow is well out in front of you (your hilt should be almost in front of your face), snap your hips the other direction (back towards your original stance) and let your arm snap out at the elbow and power the shot into their swordside shoulder or arm (or head/neck in SCA). Otherwise, you throw a strong shieldside shot at head level, making sure to finish the shot with the foible of your weapon on their shield and your basket past the near edge of their shield, then do that hip reverse and rotate the sword around the basket, snapping the shot into the side of the opponent's head. Then you can follow that up with another twist of the hips to throw either a straight shot OR a wrap at their legs/*/hips.

I use the posture relatively often in Belegarth (and did so before I started fighting SCA) because that power you get from it actually gives you a lot of speed and you still have a lot of options as to where exactly you're firing the shot. I like to combine it with a pump fake and a step-wrap or a shield kick/shield-edge shield push (when you edge their shield to open their shieldside).
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Slagar » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:47 pm

Being a lefty, that stance leaves me wide bloody open. Doesn't offer me any sword-side defense at all. The only upside it offers is the extra zing for chops and wraps onto the sword side. It's Galin's A-frame for me, with some minor variations in footwork. Works better than you'd believe.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Dane » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:56 pm

On a rare occasion, I'll briefly go into the sword-behind-the-head carriage in preparation for a hard wrap. While the extra power isn't necessary, I do find that people are more likely to let me close with them if there isn't a weapon clearly encroaching. They react less to body movement and more to sword movement.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:09 pm

This is a viable stance, I feel. In any fight, even a one-on-one fight, I usually switch between several stances to see how my opponent is going to shift position in order to react to a change in my stance. Some opponents will be more open to attacks from an Oldcastle stance, some more open to attacks from an A-Frame or Triangle stance, and some more open to attacks from a Bellatrix stance, etc. etc. etc. The point is, there are about five stances I regularly use, and each stance is optimal for delivering maybe 2 attacks (with overlap), but I can deliver just about any move I know from any stance, it's just harder with some than with others.

The reasons for using this particular stance (which sounds like a Bellatrix stance, or at least similar--http://www.bellatrix.org/school/b029l.jpg) are those that have been described: you can generate a lot of power, your attack can come from an unexpected angle, and it keeps your sword arm far away from an opponent's attack. There are plenty of reasons not to use it, as well--you can't sword-block effectively, you can't react as easily to a sudden opening in an opponent's defense, and you can't attack the legs well, to name some. But every stance has its advantages and its drawbacks, and you need to be cognizant of these and pick the stance that is best suited to a given situation and opponent.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Kirethorn » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:15 pm

The best fighter is adaptable. It was the bellatrix stance that I was reffering to. And I'll log that away for when it may come in handy. It's good learning helpful things like this.

Thankyou all for your input.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Forkbeard » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:16 pm

After reading al this, I find that I use this for one of the reasons above:
Deception. People like to let me come up to them if they aren't lloking at the end of my sword.
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Re: Newbish question

Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:04 pm

Belatrix's style also allows for some SICK power generation. The shot I've see thrown in the style that scared me was the one that goes straight to the side of the head with everything muscle in your body throwing the shot. I was messing around with that doing some pel work with some rattan and messed up my hand when I hit the pel too hard.
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