Conventional Wisdom?

[Slagar]

Alright, so this is a little out of left field, but I've got another question to toss out to the experienced, upper-end fighters out there. In another thread in this section, Jimmy made a very Jimmy-like comment about how "thousands of other fighters in various sports could be wrong", and I fired up the keyboard to shoot my mouth off, and stopped myself in time. The point I was going to make is that I'll be damned if I'll do something I don't think works, just because lots of other fighters favor it. The idea that conventional "wisdom" is always the peak of what we can do just irks the hell out of me. That way lies a total stagnation of our fighting.

So, my question to the heaviest hitters in our sport, What conventonal wisdom have you thrown out the window on your way to becoming a good fighter? What attitudes or rules of thumb did you ignore?

With the disclaimer that I am nowhere near as good as I want to be, and won't be for a while, here's an example of something I've adjusted in my style, that ignores the conventional wisdom in my realm.

In Numenor, we often tell new or mid-level fighters to "leg 'em and leave 'em", and that it is the best way to maneuver the field, and to grow as a large-field fighter.

I think this is crap, and I have develped a reputation for one-shotting people, since I have developed a repertoire of torso shots, since I refuse to walk around swatting people on the knees. Not that those shots aren't valid, simply that there are better options. My lefty cross, lefty wrap, and lefty stab are all muscle memory, and get snapped off just as quick as a leg shot, largely because I force myself to practice and use them.

So, have at it. What unconventional methods have you used to grow as a fighter?

[Big King Jimmy]

The reason the comment was made, for the record, was that someone who lives thousands of miles away and has never seen or experienced any foam fighting or SCA or anything took a look at a few videos online, took one of the most basic parts of our stance and said "That seems dumb, I won't do it."

[Slagar]

I know, and I cancelled the post for a reason. It just occurred to me that I did have a valid point, and that it would be cool to get some vets' perspectives on it. Honestly, I'm surprised no one has flamed that guy off the boards yet. No worries, man.

[bo1]

i am no heavy hitter, so i am not sure i qualify, but i am a student of the game.

your leg them and leave them theory has uses. when fighting many opponents at once it helps thin the herd, and is a safer shot as it leaves you less open. so a time and place for everything.

i think having a few good shots is bunk. i used to think that if i had just a few good shots i would better. you must have every tool in your tool box to do the job. cause then you know how the shots work and how to defend against them. it has helped me a ton.

thowing high crosses, i wish i could stop this, such a bad idea. so many better options. there are places for it, like when my opponent is on a knee, but other than that, it gets you killed.

[Forkbeard]

Remeber I fight with red weapon, not S&B.
Initiative. It is part of conventional wisdom to seize the initiative imediately in a fight and hold it.
I think this is great advice, but, I tend to let the other guy have it alot, then block and start picking apart his defense.
Of course, this only applies to fights that last longer than a few swings. Like when you go up against some one at about the same skill level as you who knows all your * tricks. Since I know I am going to have to stand there banging with 'em for a few minuts, I let them think they are in charge, block a few times and line them up for the one red shot to the ribs.
FB

[Todo]

Like Bo, I'm not the best out there, but I can help.

Spins can actually be very, very helpful in a fight once you're doing them right. They build up momentum and are great for dodging shots, blocking shots, and checking out the field around you. I can't tell you how many arrows have whizzed by me when I was spinning away from someone, or how many times I've seen someone flanking me mid-spin.

[Arkin]

your asking a extremely deep question and your not thinking threw it clearly. Your saying that you want the upper-end fighters to answer you what is the right way to fight. But don't you think people are inspired by the great fighters and naturally will at least want to mimic there style? So the style that the majority of good fighters do is always going to be the same its just who can understand the most styles and use them properly. Like Bo said, You need to look at fighting as a tool box and you should be able to go into the tool box and use what ever tool works best in whatever situation. Or like what Bruce Lee said you need to be able to flow like water if its poured in a cup it shapes itself to the cup because it adapts to its situation. So we must be like the water and learn to adapt to different situations that happen. To answer your question it has to do with hard work if a fighter wants to be great he will push himself every step of the way to be the best he can at all time.

[Roland Demox]

Inever thought I would see a Bruce Lee reference used in this thread...awesome

[Physic]

This is a really great question.

Never ignore anything you learn. While something may not work for you it can be someone elses bread and butter . There are so many variables in any given fight that you can never rely on a few moves. We are all different fighters with different fighting styles. You do not have to learn how to throw every shot in the book but you better learn how to defend against them.

Certainly legging and leaving people is a valid tactic. As Bo said it just depends on the given situation. As fighters we have to evaluate every scenario in a very small amount of time. We will all make many good and bad choices in any battle. Training is what we are doing to make sure that we are always making the good choices and eliminate the bad ones. You want to train to defeat the opponents that are better than you.

Probably the most unconventional thing I have done to gain skill in Bel is fight SCA. When I first started fighting in the SCA I was a mediocre foam fighter. The SCA taught me how important technique and body mechanics are. You cannot do well in the SCA if you do not use these tools for the speed and power generation that is required. I cannot stress enough to people how important it is to just throw a hundred flat snaps a day with good technique. When you do just that one shot for 6 months straight you will see a dramatic increase in over all skill.

Slagar, keep an open mind about everything. When you can learn to do that many more doors will open up to you.

[bo1]

physic just to be clear, the flat snap is to the shield side temple of the opposeing fighter correct( as it applies to SCA combat). It is kinda like you are holding a serving tray, palm up, and then whiping it forward. is that the shot?

[Physic]

Yeah thats it. The body mechanics of that one shot will transfer over to all shots. You will still need to train all the standard shots but that is the first one to master. Do it slow.

[Slagar]

Excellent responses, from all involved. Thanks very much, guys. To be fair, I'm not really sitting here asking for shots and stances, but for mindsets, for habits, and for unusual ways of looking at situations. For example, one thing I was told over the summer that really resonated with me was:

"Fight your opponent based on what they're doing, not what you want to do. Don't throw a shot because you want to, throw it because they gave it to you. Otherwise you're just opening yourself up for the sake of a target that isn't there."


Physic's advice of keeping an open mind is something I hear a lot, largely because it's something I still have a problem with. It's important to remember that different styles work for different fighters, and not to discount anything as valid. Thanks again for the advice, and feel free to keep chiming in with anything that comes to mind. I'd love to see this thread keep going.

[Kenneth]

Arkin, I'm very proud you understand the toolbox.
-----

My personal theory:

Force your opponent to fight in a manner that gives you the advantage.
Cut off the options of your opponent.
Consider giving your opponent an opportunity he can not refuse.
When the way is clear, strike.
Concentrate on having less vulnerabilities, not more spectacular victories.

First focus on removing your own weaknesses. Then, wait for your opponent to reveal his weaknesses. If he does not initially reveal any weaknesses, tempt him to reveal a weakness. If temptation does not work, force him into revealing a weakness. If he reveals no weaknesses, then try to position him as advantageously as possible near your friends.

If I had to assemble it into a cryptic "OMG so kewl~" statement:
You shall take only what I give you, but you shall give me what I desire.

Alternatively:
Cup that shape only lose when water overflow. Until water overflow, cup win. Or cup has leak.

[Arkin]

thanks kenny i had a few good teachers in my day.

[p_quick]

I'm with bo and physic here you need to just be open to ideas.

P.S. don't high cross and don't spin. I'm not saying you should never do these things i'm just saying know when to use them and know when not to use them.

[p_quick]

i mean i actually threw a scorpion wrap on bo last weekend and i think they are one of the worst shots we posibably can throw in our game...

[Ixous]

I would have to say that my ideas behind fighting have been unconventional for years. I spin, jump, flip, cartwheel and laugh when i fight. Over the past year i can say that i have been working on more solid skill base, but i have a couple of fading/past mindsets.

I used to TRY to put myself at the most disadvantage i could, and use what i had to survive. I gave myself a disadvantage by using "inferior" equipment. I simply had to stress this equipments limits to the max of their effectiveness. Made me better i think.

I also used to place myself on the battlefield in the most difficult place to survive. I used to love running right through the middle of a line, and hanging out, playing cards, or dancing behind the lines of the opposing team.

I never had the luxury of fighting regularly with anyone that could teach me techniques and mindsets. I have picked things up from "the guys" over the years that have help. Way i figure it, you need to know skills, mindsets, and moves so you can derive a mindset and a fun exciting way to fight, that makes you laugh or just have fun fighting.

I suppose that the way i look at fighting is thus.
"If you have to wonder if what your about to do is really gonna work, your enemy is likely to not know either."

Ix

[Physic]

Over the past year the biggest change to my fighting has been my thoughts on sparring. When I first began fighting in both the SCA and Belegarth I was preached that sparring was the most important thing to do if you wanted to gain skill. After talking to many great fighters and doing research on other martial arts I have come to the conclusion that sparring alone is one of the slowest ways to gain skill. The reason that sparring has gained popularity is because it is the most fun way of training.

The ideal scenario for becoming your best is to balance your training techniques. If you really want to become a great fighter you should be incorporating all aspects of fighting drills, physical development, visualization, research and sparring.

I feel that the benefits of sparring are experience, range, timing and most importantly finding out what you are doing wrong. If you are training with someone and you realize that you are repeatedly doing something wrong that is when you need to sit down and create a drill that will break your bad habit. The more you train with bad habits the more they become ingrained into your fighting style and it becomes that much more difficult to change.

[Arrakis]

Well said, Physic.

Any "things you were doing wrong" that you'd like to share and techniques/drills you used to fix them? Just to give us an idea.

[p_quick]

block strike

[Arrakis]

You mean counterstriking? Or blocking, then striking?

[Dane]

He means you block with your weapon and riposte. Builds speed, hand-eye coordination, shot selection, shot recognition, blocking strength, blocking technique...

[bo1]

ya he means block strike.

you recieve the blow, taking it into your gaurd, then lash out once it lands. you basically corkscrew your body to block the shot then uncork to throw a shot. This is an exaggeration of the acutall movement as it can be very short, but thinking of it this way gets you moving in the right direction.

[Arrakis]

Ahh, a weapon block that * you back for a shot of your own on the backswing. Awesome. I'll see if I can't incorporate that, though most of my weapon blocks are either completely incidental (i.e., they impact on my weapon because I'm standing in pyramid guard) or are shots themselves.

[The Great Gigsby]

Block/Strike is also the name of a really fundamental training exercise.

You stand with your sparring partner about a sword's length apart (so that they're just within striking range) and you take turns throwing volleys of distinct, separate shots trying to score clean hits on one another while the other person tries to block them. You're not allowed to adjust your footwork mid-attack. It's useful in the sense that if you're throwing an inefficient shot, you'll learn quickly how to adjust it. You'll also learn how to punchblock like a mo-fo.

I don't really see the usefulness in what you guys are talking about.

[Wisp]

It is useful because when you catch a good block, typically, theres a big ol' wide open slot just asking for you to take advantage of it. If you have any kind of hand speed, it's devastating against slower fighters.

Slots
Traces
Block Strikes
Footwork

Those are the four basic tools I recommend.

[Arrakis]

Traces?

[bo1]

i am going to guess that a trace is when you follow the opponents weapon back for a shot, it is pure speculation.

[MagnusofDregoth]

One piece of conventional wisdom that I think is not borne out by the facts is that in a field battle, a spear is a secondary or support weapon. In reality, my experience has led me to believe that, in fact, a spear is a much deadlier weapon in a field battle (especially a line-fight) than sword and shield; the sword and shield really just need to be there to protect the spear.

Now, a spear's defensive capabilities are very limited, which is why it needs the protection from the shields, and which is why it is not useful in a fight that is too small to have enough supporting sword/shield fighters. But, if you want to get kills in a large battle, spear is the way to play.

[Slagar]

I've heard that said before, and my response now is the same as it was then. Support weapon is not a derogative term, merely a descriptor. The simple fact is this: sword/shield and florentine fighters, and to some extent even reds, can fight by themselves, and be effective without polearms. Polearms cannot be effective without a guard. It's like artillery. In a given situation, the artillery will do the most damage, with the soldiers only guarding it. That being said, you take the soldiers away, and you no longer have a viable force. The inverse is not true.

As a member of Iron Crown (twice now), I can tell you that in a well-formed wall-and-polearm unit, the polearms are supposed to get most of the kills. I can also tell you that it doesn't work so well without the wall.

[Chicken]

I won't get into the semantics of the term support weapon, but I think this does bring up bit of conventional wisdom about the independence of polearms that's at least overstated.

Sure, spears and glaives are safer and as a consequence more offensive when they have a friendly shield or florentiner nearby. However, other than for protection from archery, I think people commonly assume that polearms need closer protection than they actually do.

This varies a lot with the situation, skill, style, and equipment of the polearmsman, so it's certainly not completely untrue, but in my experience spears and glaives are capable of taking care of themselves much better than people often give them credit for, either through mobility or gear. Equally importantly, a shieldman or florentiner doesn't need to be right on a poles shoulder or in front of them to provide support.

Personally, when spearing in a loose formation situation I like to have a blue fighter within, say, 6-8' of me. If archery isn't a major concern and if the blue fighter has sufficient field awareness and knows what to expect, that's usually sufficient. It gives me room to work without my opponent being able to put my partner in my way, but they're still sufficiently nearby that I can retreat through their threat range if need be, either peeling off my pursuer or just getting them killed by my partner.

Relatedly, * and ball can work just as well as * and balls, even if it's anatomically incorrect.

YMMV

[The Great Gigsby]

...spears and glaives are capable of taking care of themselves much better than people often give them credit for, either through mobility or gear.

I pretty much agree with this. As long as you can utilize range, a pokey is a pokey is a pokey. The sharp end goes in the soft spots. If you're on the flank, having a buddy nearby is a good idea in the eventual case that you get rushed by a shield.

[MagnusofDregoth]

Really, I think there just aren't enough good spear fighters out there. A good spear fighter, with a shield and a back-up weapon, can stand alone and be a serious threat. He is protected from archers, he can probably deflect a sword and shield fighter's attacks (at least long enough to run away) and he has really fast attacks--spears can be very, very fast and hard to block if they are well made and the wielder is experienced.

Basically, the piece of conventional wisdom I want to buck is the notion, very prevalent in this game, that if you want to get glory and be a hero you need to be a sword and shield fighter, because they are the "main" fighters in this game. In reality, a spear will do a lot more killing, and a good spearman is, in a large battle, more useful than a good shieldman.

[Winfang]

Skirmishing is what wrecks a spear effectiveness. The more static the lines are, the more effective a spear is. In my opinion the spear is a very focused weapon and when you have to watch you back every 5 seconds, you lose that focus. Very rarely have I seen that solo spear fighter be effective on their own.

[Slagar]

Actually, I pick up a glaive pretty often, and I've been told I'm very good with one (no one to compare it to, really, so I can't say myself) and I'm most effective (in my opinion) in a looser, more skirmishing situation. The difference, in my opinion, is that a glaive can be swung, and can shield break, as well. My standard procedure when going solo with a glaive is to leg people, either blue or green, and then, once there are no mobile threats around me, shield break and kill all the gimps. That being said, I'm under no illusions about the jump in effectiveness I enjoy when I've got a shieldman to hide behind within fleeing distance. I guess it would be most accurate to say that the weapon styles support each other. I don't really see the term "support weapon" as being innacurate, but I also don't consider a mobile glaive less of a threat than a mobile shieldman, so maybe I'm just an outlier. EIther way, yes, a polearm can be dangerous without a guard, but it's not quite as versatile or independent as a shield. My .02.

[Dane]

...and I've been told I'm very good with one (no one to compare it to, really, so I can't say myself)

See: Falkor.

[Winfang]

My opinion is that in a singles fight, if all things equal, a shield & weapon fighter should best any other style with the exception of florentine. Melees are a different story.

[Slagar]

...and I've been told I'm very good with one (no one to compare it to, really, so I can't say myself)

See: Falkor.

He doesn't count. Robots don't get ranked in the human league. Honestly, Falcor's style is completely different from mine, and he uses a mini-glaive more often than not. Still, fair enough, I'm probably not up to his level, yet.

[Big King Jimmy]

...and I've been told I'm very good with one (no one to compare it to, really, so I can't say myself)

See: Falkor.

He doesn't count. Robots don't get ranked in the human league. Honestly, Falcor's style is completely different from mine, and he uses a mini-glaive more often than not. Still, fair enough, I'm probably not up to his level, yet.

Most often at events at least I see him using the HA glaive with the lion on the side. That's no mini glaive.

[Slagar]

True, at events I see him using that, now that I think about it. At practices, which is where I see him most often, he uses a mini-glaive with the HA lion, most of the time. Meh. Either way, just slipped my mind that I'm not the only mobile glaive fighter I've met. I'm sure there's more than me and Falcor, too, if I bothered to sit and think about it.

[p_quick]

he fights with a 70inch glave, and yes as of right now i'd say he's the one to look at in our game as a good glaive fighter.

Slagar, i think i would sooner call him a mutant or a freak instead of a robot, he laughs far too much to be a machine

[Bhakdar]

This thread is rockin' solid. A lengthy quip from my experience follows, and goes more with conventional wisdom, because I feel its effective. For less-often heard wisdom, go to the next post.

1) Spar everyone. A lot. Especially the tough ones. You start to decipher patterns in people's fighting that you adapt to, and whether physically able to counter them yet, you learn what to expect or how you should act. As you train physically how to counter advanced 'trend setting fighters,' you'll notice yourself whooping lots of people trying to emulate them.

2) I concur with Physic on the importance of Balanced Training. I was in my best fighting prime when I had actively practiced Belegarth, Dag, Amtgard, TaeKwonDo, and yoga all within a 2ish year period. Diversity of training with consistency of conditioning, dietary health, etc. is what makes you a champion athlete.

3) Patience and perseverance. Most people recognize mentally what they can change about their fighting to improve before they can change it physically. Concept, then step-by-step, then full speed, then consistent practice. You'll get it. If you have the will, you will improve. Focus on the feeling of your growth and skill development rather than comparing yourself to others. You are the one that gets to feel your progress.

4) Maximize what works for you while not getting stuck being predictable. This is probably the toughest and goes along with always keeping an open mind. Actively use what you know is consistently effective for you while constantly trying on new styles, shots, and flavors that you resonate with and pick up from others. If someone has a consistent read on you, smoking you every time for it, pull out what worked for you last year, or go spar someone new who you've enjoyed watching. Ask them to explain what they're doing and why they like it. Try it on.

5) Play with range & movement. I think this is one of the greatest shortcomings of most mid-level fighters. They get decent one on one and never blast off from there cause they don't move around their opponent(s) or learn to go from max range to nose to nose as it benefits them. The second you limb someone, usually its most effective to be on top of them in the next second, for instance.

But then again, that's just another snippet of conventional wisdom. Use the conventions that work for you and let go what doesn't (but never refuse to try it on again).

A good read on time-tested battle wisdom I would throw out there is Musashi's Book of Five Rings. This is a classic for warriors of all walks and gets down to the heart of it: As a warrior, what are you doing? Killing. Kill or be killed, there is nothing else. The most efficient process of eliminating the foe or team is always the best. Do it.

[Bhakdar]

As indicated, this post is the more unconventional wisdom, which will help you be effective less percentage of the time.

1) Be absolutely confident all the time (as long as this doesn't develop into big ego or rhinohiding). A lot of fighters get off on feeling so confident they're going to win, that it gives them the adrenaline to do so. If this fits your style and attitude, use it.

2) No matter what your body size, get physical. If you're small, that push, kick, or bash is totally unexpected. If you're medium, it's still unexpected, and if you're big, unless you do it all the time, it is once again unexpected. Most Belegarth fighters pussyfoot around at range most of the time, even the good ones.

3) Put a stabbing tip on your weapon and use it until this becomes 'duh' conventional wisdom. Stab using hip and shoulder torque rather than arm extension.

4) On the field: Move around actively seeking target after target. Don't take what's in front of you. Hunt the biggest threats and weakest near-breaking points. You may thrive with this challenge or get tired of being shot in the head and give up. Both encounters let you learn about your best personal balance and position on the field.

5) Sparring: Break from serious focus on 'growth' to play with some zany random crap. Mess around with friends trying spins, goofy hand swaps, etc. whether at slow or full pace. Whether you end up with an effective theme or not, it gets you out of your comfort zone, or shall I say "tension zone" where you're trying to anticipate, judge, and know everything going on. That's impossible. LET GO.

I really enjoy the following exercise for breaking habits and this sort of tension lock: Get a partner you're comfortable sparring with. Slow down to 1/8-1/2 speed and begin a sort of block & strike dance with your opponent that has an rhythm to it. You and your partner will have to practice slowing WAY DOWN to benefit from this. Feel more that you're emulating Tai Chi rather than trying to hit your opponent. Dance. Literally. Be water, fire, wind, whatever- let your body move freely rather than trying to control every detail of position. This sort of slow exercise will let you see openings and how you can get to them in ways you never did before. You'll see opportunities for weapon grabs, grappling, edging, circular & inverted shots, kicking, and every other badass looking thing from Tekken that you wished you could pull off in foam fighting. This is NOT about the learning most efficient way, but the most fun and unexpected way. And the funnest way, is the most effective way to play a game in my book.

[MagnusofDregoth]

This is NOT about the learning most efficient way, but the most fun and unexpected way. And the funnest way, is the most effective way to play a game in my book.

Amen to that.

[Arrakis]

Bhakdar, * you, now I have to go into seclusion to contemplate on the epic truths of your posts.

Thanks for sharing, truly.

[Bhakdar]

I'll add another chime of agreement to Physics' note on sparring as a 'slow way'. Unless you're a natural athlete that thrives by physical challenge, sparring may just be frustrating and nothing more. A number of vets you walk up to spar with may be truly well meaning, but the match ends up with them whooping you 20 times with the same 3 trick shots, one of which they may demonstrate and explain, but then they need to go get a beer and leave you without ever giving you any true constructive criticism on how to improve your fighting style.

When you approach a vet to spar, be direct and polite about what you want to get out of the encounter:
"Can we go a few rounds and you could point out what I need to work on?"
"Can you explain to me how you do this shot?"
"Can you teach me how to block a flail?"

This will get you much farther much faster.

Another secret to accelerating sparring growth rate is who you seek. As a yellow belt you can learn from a blue belt or a black belt. Depending on their demeanor, the blue belt may be a better teacher, but able to provide less insight. Your optimal match is finding the best fighter who is also the best teacher.

[Slagar]

Just fight Dane, Kenny, Peter, and Physic over and over. Works for me.

Then practice what you learn fighting them on hapless innocents.

Honestly, I'm 100% about the physical challenge of fighting, of pitting myself against other fighters. I know that sparring and field fighting without any drills or tape will wind up developing bad habits, but practicing without the challenge of an opponent just leaves me cold. I do my drills/tape/studying, and a hell of a lot of them, but very reluctantly.

That being said, choosing who you spar and learn from is pretty key. The fighters I listed are all excellent fighters, but more importantly they know why they're good, and they can teach it to others. That is the difference between a good fighter and a good teacher, that intellectual dedication to knowing not just what works, but why it does, and adapting it to other fighters and new situations.

[Remdawg Killionaire]

I love Musashi's Book of Five Rings
it will help you get better at everything.
I'm better at fighting because of it. Better at Chess because of it. Better at working in a serious french kitchen because of it. I'm more confident, and more positive and more collected because of reading it. Read it, reread it, read a chapter a day, or every time you drop a deuce, absorb it, live it and life will feel all that more fierce in your heart, in your being, in your soul. Cant recommend it enough! Alongside the Escoffir "Fine Art of Cookery" Cookbook it's my daily tome, my BIBLE. Best gift ever!

[Loptr]

A few things to ponder.

1. Patience- It has taken me a long time to recognize if I take my time the shots will manifest themselves. The next trick is to be prepared to exploit the opening.

2. Bait- Example: leave you shield a bit low to show off a bit of shoulder. Get them swinging where you want them to. Then take away the opening and throw an appropriate counter.

3. Pell- BORING! But highly useful for unlearning bad habits and teaching yourself proper form. Start out on a shot you want to learn at stupid slow speed until you have the proper delivery then slowly ramp up the speed. If you get sloppy slow it down and keep it in control. The speed will come. Great way to get your body mechanics in good form.

4. Block Strike- makes your arms burn but very good for reflexive blocking and learning what shots work well from the current position of your sword.

5. Footwork- BORING! If your interested follow this link and read what Thor has to say on the topic.
http://www.electricsamurai.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14214

6. Tao of Jeet Kun Do- Get is from Amazon and read it. A lot of it will directly translate to Bel.

7. Go to SKBC this spring (2009) in St Louis area. It moves around the country yearly.

Loptr